ImageImageImageImageImage

Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League

Moderators: j4remi, NoLayupRule, HerSports85, GONYK, Jeff Van Gully, dakomish23, Deeeez Knicks, mpharris36

Knicksfan20
RealGM
Posts: 18,678
And1: 5,759
Joined: Aug 19, 2006

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#401 » by Knicksfan20 » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:17 am

xxrainnn wrote:ManiaX I think you are understating the value of a scrappy big man. First of all, as everybody knows, our frontcourt defense is total trash. Remember the impact that Turiaf had when he was healthy enough to be in the game. He made a tremendous difference. Turiaf frankly isn't even that good. Jorts is essentially another Turiaf. These guys don't need the ball to be effective. His job out there is to basically rebound, defend, and give energy. He will not give people EZPasses into the lane. The guy also seems like he has a competent jumpshot and will rebound better than Ronnie.

You can make the argument that there are plenty of big men we can sign or trade for. My question is: who? It's a known fact that you must pay the premium for a big man (EC, Kwame, Dalembert, any other scrub, etc.) Any big man we bring in is going to be overpaid - period. It makes perfect sense to draft a cheap 2nd rounder who can do exactly what any other overpaid scrub will do. The Knicks strategy in regards to big men appears to be scrubs by committee, while hoping one or two will stand out. I think it's a pretty damn good idea until maybe we can make a splash at Dwight or something, a big man actually worth paying millions for. Another plus is that we have no more need for effries (well logic says so, but with MDA who knows).

Selby is talented, there is no doubt about it. Drafting him, however, would be pointless on this Knick roster. The kid is clearly a good scorer, but he will definitely need the ball in order to do so. His value on this team would plummet for sure. A healthy TD would give us basically the same thing Selby would. He has already proven that he is capable of scoring in this league.

The Knicks clearly went into the draft with the idea of bolstering their defense, an area in which Selby provides absolutely nothing. I honestly have no regrets in not drafting him (as of now anyways :D )

+1
User avatar
eviL
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,172
And1: 12
Joined: Dec 02, 2006

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#402 » by eviL » Sun Sep 25, 2011 1:24 am

xxrainnn wrote:ManiaX I think you are understating the value of a scrappy big man. First of all, as everybody knows, our frontcourt defense is total trash. Remember the impact that Turiaf had when he was healthy enough to be in the game. He made a tremendous difference. Turiaf frankly isn't even that good. Jorts is essentially another Turiaf. These guys don't need the ball to be effective. His job out there is to basically rebound, defend, and give energy. He will not give people EZPasses into the lane. The guy also seems like he has a competent jumpshot and will rebound better than Ronnie.

You can make the argument that there are plenty of big men we can sign or trade for. My question is: who? It's a known fact that you must pay the premium for a big man (EC, Kwame, Dalembert, any other scrub, etc.) Any big man we bring in is going to be overpaid - period. It makes perfect sense to draft a cheap 2nd rounder who can do exactly what any other overpaid scrub will do. The Knicks strategy in regards to big men appears to be scrubs by committee, while hoping one or two will stand out. I think it's a pretty damn good idea until maybe we can make a splash at Dwight or something, a big man actually worth paying millions for. Another plus is that we have no more need for effries (well logic says so, but with MDA who knows).

Selby is talented, there is no doubt about it. Drafting him, however, would be pointless on this Knick roster. The kid is clearly a good scorer, but he will definitely need the ball in order to do so. His value on this team would plummet for sure. A healthy TD would give us basically the same thing Selby would. He has already proven that he is capable of scoring in this league.

The Knicks clearly went into the draft with the idea of bolstering their defense, an area in which Selby provides absolutely nothing. I honestly have no regrets in not drafting him (as of now anyways :D )


Rain, you're making too much sense, please stop!
Image
User avatar
ManiaX
Starter
Posts: 2,142
And1: 0
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Location: Home of the Little Big Man

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#403 » by ManiaX » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:07 am

xxrainnn wrote:ManiaX I think you are understating the value of a scrappy big man. First of all, as everybody knows, our frontcourt defense is total trash. Remember the impact that Turiaf had when he was healthy enough to be in the game. He made a tremendous difference. Turiaf frankly isn't even that good. Jorts is essentially another Turiaf. These guys don't need the ball to be effective. His job out there is to basically rebound, defend, and give energy. He will not give people EZPasses into the lane. The guy also seems like he has a competent jumpshot and will rebound better than Ronnie.


I totally agree with what you are saying as for as the role. No, I am not understating the value of a scrappy big man. But I do question the ability of a guy like Jorts to do the things you want him to do. You make it sound so easy, as if Jorts can just step onto the court and be able to play defense and rebound. Turiaf, who you say isn't even that good, is still a better athlete and has a bigger wingspan to overcome him being undersized. Also Turiaf is one of the better backup Centers in the league, when healthy.

Not sure what you guys don't understand about the guy. Jorts is undersized at slightly under 6"10, has a small wingspan, not very athletic, and is slow. Please stop comparing him to guys like David Lee, Nick Collison, and so on.
You can make the argument that there are plenty of big men we can sign or trade for. My question is: who? It's a known fact that you must pay the premium for a big man (EC, Kwame, Dalembert, any other scrub, etc.) Any big man we bring in is going to be overpaid - period. It makes perfect sense to draft a cheap 2nd rounder who can do exactly what any other overpaid scrub will do. The Knicks strategy in regards to big men appears to be scrubs by committee, while hoping one or two will stand out. I think it's a pretty damn good idea until maybe we can make a splash at Dwight or something, a big man actually worth paying millions for. Another plus is that we have no more need for effries (well logic says so, but with MDA who knows).

Selby is talented, there is no doubt about it. Drafting him, however, would be pointless on this Knick roster. The kid is clearly a good scorer, but he will definitely need the ball in order to do so. His value on this team would plummet for sure. A healthy TD would give us basically the same thing Selby would. He has already proven that he is capable of scoring in this league.

The Knicks clearly went into the draft with the idea of bolstering their defense, an area in which Selby provides absolutely nothing. I honestly have no regrets in not drafting him (as of now anyways :D )


Drafting Selby would not have been pointless. Last I checked Billups is old and has one year left on his contract. TD has proven to be a 6th man and back up PG at best. It would have made sense to draft Selby and let him learn from Billups for a year. There is a reason why the Knicks were also looking at Reggie Jackson in the draft as well. If Paul doesn't come, which is likely, we would still need a PG of the future.
User avatar
GONYK
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 66,910
And1: 45,527
Joined: Jun 27, 2003
Location: Brunson Gang
   

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#404 » by GONYK » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:09 am

ManiaX wrote:Drafting Selby would not have been pointless. Last I checked Billups is old and has one year left on his contract. TD has proven to be a 6th man and back up PG at best. It would have made sense to draft Selby and let him learn from Billups for a year. There is a reason why the Knicks were also looking at Reggie Jackson in the draft as well. If Paul doesn't come, which is likely, we would still need a PG of the future.

You mean aside from the one we drafted in the first round with the 17th pick based on the same exact logic?
User avatar
ManiaX
Starter
Posts: 2,142
And1: 0
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Location: Home of the Little Big Man

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#405 » by ManiaX » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:20 am

GONYK wrote:
ManiaX wrote:Drafting Selby would not have been pointless. Last I checked Billups is old and has one year left on his contract. TD has proven to be a 6th man and back up PG at best. It would have made sense to draft Selby and let him learn from Billups for a year. There is a reason why the Knicks were also looking at Reggie Jackson in the draft as well. If Paul doesn't come, which is likely, we would still need a PG of the future.

You mean aside from the one we drafted in the first round with the 17th pick based on the same exact logic?


So now Iman is a PG? Could have sworn he was a SG and taking Field's spot in the lineup, as people have been saying.

Is there any reason why Selby couldn't have played WITH Shumpert? Both of them are more than capable of playing on and off the ball on offense.
User avatar
GONYK
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 66,910
And1: 45,527
Joined: Jun 27, 2003
Location: Brunson Gang
   

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#406 » by GONYK » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:25 am

ManiaX wrote:
GONYK wrote:
ManiaX wrote:Drafting Selby would not have been pointless. Last I checked Billups is old and has one year left on his contract. TD has proven to be a 6th man and back up PG at best. It would have made sense to draft Selby and let him learn from Billups for a year. There is a reason why the Knicks were also looking at Reggie Jackson in the draft as well. If Paul doesn't come, which is likely, we would still need a PG of the future.

You mean aside from the one we drafted in the first round with the 17th pick based on the same exact logic?


So now Iman is a PG? Could have sworn he was a SG and taking Field's spot in the lineup, as people have been saying.

Is there any reason why Selby couldn't have played WITH Shumpert? Both of them are more than capable of playing on and off the ball on offense.

Absolutely NOTHING about Selby makes him more of a PG than Shumpert, aside from the fact that he is shorter.

Is there any reason to have two duplicative players from the same draft when we desperately needed a big man? Especially when that would mean that 1/3 of our active roster is dedicated to basically to Billups and a bunch of combo guards?
User avatar
ManiaX
Starter
Posts: 2,142
And1: 0
Joined: Apr 07, 2003
Location: Home of the Little Big Man

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#407 » by ManiaX » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:40 am

GONYK wrote:Absolutely NOTHING about Selby makes him more of a PG than Shumpert, aside from the fact that he is shorter.

Is there any reason to have two duplicative players from the same draft when we desperately needed a big man? Especially when that would mean that 1/4 of our active roster is dedicated to basically a bunch of combo guards?


I'm done talking about this.

If your reasoning behind drafting Jorts is because we "needed" a big man and drafting someone similar to Shumpert is pointless, than that is your opinion. Also seems to be the opinion of others as well. That is fine by me.

Like I've said before many times, I think it is best to draft the best overall player available. Not by need. This could have helped us avoid drafting Jordan Hill in 09 because we were desperate for a big man then too. Selby was low risk, high reward.

As far as Jorts goes, I would rather give his spot on the roster to a veteran big man who is ready to contribute.
User avatar
GONYK
Forum Mod - Knicks
Forum Mod - Knicks
Posts: 66,910
And1: 45,527
Joined: Jun 27, 2003
Location: Brunson Gang
   

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#408 » by GONYK » Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:47 am

ManiaX wrote:
GONYK wrote:Absolutely NOTHING about Selby makes him more of a PG than Shumpert, aside from the fact that he is shorter.

Is there any reason to have two duplicative players from the same draft when we desperately needed a big man? Especially when that would mean that 1/4 of our active roster is dedicated to basically a bunch of combo guards?


I'm done talking about this.

If your reasoning behind drafting Jorts is because we "needed" a big man and drafting someone similar to Shumpert is pointless, than that is your opinion. Also seems to be the opinion of others as well. That is fine by me.

Like I've said before many times, I think it is best to draft the best overall player available. Not by need. This could have helped us avoid drafting Jordan Hill in 09 because we were desperate for a big man then too. Selby was low risk, high reward.

As far as Jorts goes, I would rather give his spot on the roster to a veteran big man who is ready to contribute.

Hey, if we could have gotten another second rounder for cash (which was nearly impossible in this draft, especially for us) I would have been all about Selby. At the pick we had though, he would have been a luxury, whereas Jorts was a need.

There is a HUGE difference between drafting for need with the 45th pick in the draft and doing the same with the 8th pick in the draft.
Falstaffxx
Banned User
Posts: 9,153
And1: 165
Joined: Sep 27, 2010

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#409 » by Falstaffxx » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:35 pm

ffs...the Knicks didn't wan't Selby. Did. Not. Want. Him. NEITHER DID 20 OTHER TEAMS WHO EACH HAD 2 CHANCES TO TAKE HIM. If Selby has done something by this time next year, complain - it's pointless to whine about it now, when all you're doing is disagreeing with professional scouts.
Knicksfan20
RealGM
Posts: 18,678
And1: 5,759
Joined: Aug 19, 2006

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#410 » by Knicksfan20 » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:46 pm

Can we please stop acting as if we are going to draft a superstar in the 2nd round? Drafting in the 2nd round for "potential" is stupid, we dont need more stars we need role players. We need somone to do the dirty work, we need somone to bang with the big guys, we need somone to dive for loose balls and fight for rebounds. We NEEDED Jorts. He was a great pick in the second round and he was a need for us.

i dont care if he doesnt become an allstar or a double double player. Give me 8/6 in 20 minutes of hustle/hard work and a few good hard fouls.
NoMoreThrees
Banned User
Posts: 2,356
And1: 0
Joined: Mar 02, 2011

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#411 » by NoMoreThrees » Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:54 pm

ManiaX wrote:
GONYK wrote:Absolutely NOTHING about Selby makes him more of a PG than Shumpert, aside from the fact that he is shorter.

Is there any reason to have two duplicative players from the same draft when we desperately needed a big man? Especially when that would mean that 1/4 of our active roster is dedicated to basically a bunch of combo guards?


I'm done talking about this.

If your reasoning behind drafting Jorts is because we "needed" a big man and drafting someone similar to Shumpert is pointless, than that is your opinion. Also seems to be the opinion of others as well. That is fine by me.

Like I've said before many times, I think it is best to draft the best overall player available. Not by need. This could have helped us avoid drafting Jordan Hill in 09 because we were desperate for a big man then too. Selby was low risk, high reward.

As far as Jorts goes, I would rather give his spot on the roster to a veteran big man who is ready to contribute.


didnt u hear. jorts is laimbeer all over again. shumperts is like a stronger jordan with nash point skills. fields is pippen but smarter. lol we gun roll. and jordan hill is awesome didnt u kno it just takes big men time to develop. he gunna make us regret trading him. or something. i dunno anymore its easy to lose track with all these posts making players something they arent
Falstaffxx
Banned User
Posts: 9,153
And1: 165
Joined: Sep 27, 2010

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#412 » by Falstaffxx » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:03 pm

NoMoreThrees wrote:didnt u hear. jorts is laimbeer all over again. shumperts is like a stronger jordan with nash point skills. fields is pippen but smarter. lol we gun roll. and jordan hill is awesome didnt u kno it just takes big men time to develop. he gunna make us regret trading him. or something. i dunno anymore its easy to lose track with all these posts making players something they arent


Fo sho. Bring back Crawford.
NoMoreThrees
Banned User
Posts: 2,356
And1: 0
Joined: Mar 02, 2011

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#413 » by NoMoreThrees » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:07 pm

Falstaffxx wrote:
NoMoreThrees wrote:didnt u hear. jorts is laimbeer all over again. shumperts is like a stronger jordan with nash point skills. fields is pippen but smarter. lol we gun roll. and jordan hill is awesome didnt u kno it just takes big men time to develop. he gunna make us regret trading him. or something. i dunno anymore its easy to lose track with all these posts making players something they arent


Fo sho. Bring back Crawford.


what the hell u always talking about. why u always mention crawford in every post to me. you make no sense.
Falstaffxx
Banned User
Posts: 9,153
And1: 165
Joined: Sep 27, 2010

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#414 » by Falstaffxx » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:09 pm

NoMoreThrees wrote:
Falstaffxx wrote:
NoMoreThrees wrote:didnt u hear. jorts is laimbeer all over again. shumperts is like a stronger jordan with nash point skills. fields is pippen but smarter. lol we gun roll. and jordan hill is awesome didnt u kno it just takes big men time to develop. he gunna make us regret trading him. or something. i dunno anymore its easy to lose track with all these posts making players something they arent


Fo sho. Bring back Crawford.


what the hell u always talking about. why u always mention crawford in every post to me. you make no sense.


Because your greatest wish is for the Knicks to roll with Crawford and Randolph again.
NBA Fan 1234
RealGM
Posts: 48,653
And1: 28,365
Joined: Jul 16, 2009

Re: Shumpert lighting up the Vegas League 

Post#415 » by NBA Fan 1234 » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:13 pm

Falstaffxx wrote:
NoMoreThrees wrote:
Falstaffxx wrote:Fo sho. Bring back Crawford.


what the hell u always talking about. why u always mention crawford in every post to me. you make no sense.


Because your greatest wish is for the Knicks to roll with Crawford and Randolph again.


Well...I mean...those were the good old days...obviously.

Return to New York Knicks