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Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming?

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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#401 » by DaGawd » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:28 am

NYKfan77 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:

Alot of star dont regress in there second season only to get better again in there third. You see a gradual climb to stardom not step backs.

I am not giving up on him just stating facts his game has looked to regress some. Claims to be a hard worker but maybe didn't work on the things that matter? I think by the end of his career he will be in multiple all-star games.

I legit don't see any regression.. Ya'll are wylin right now



So these first four games you see the same KP we saw last year?

Largely? Yes. Which isn't regression. I know we haven't seen a lot of nuances he was supposed to add yet but like I said the dude is still a pup and its only 4 games into his second season. Seem's like Knick fans really can't stand to see the maturation process, we need a ready made star that was developed elsewhere.
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#402 » by 13ringsruling » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:29 am

ibraheim718 wrote:Hornacek also better install a little zone defense with KP in the middle over the next couple of seasons.


bro i was thinking about this last night and i feel like the best way to maximize this team (or maybe just kp) is to actually just switch everything / play psuedo-matchup-zone. of course you need rules for how they switch IE only guard-guard switches or kp-noah switches or melo-lance switches etc. but keeping kp camped around the block somehow is a good idea for sure.

edit: and speaking of noah, if they hang onto him, hornacek needs to figure out how to keep guys from shading off of him. aka hornacek needs to spend 1000 hours locked in a gym with noah reteaching him how the **** to shoot.
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#403 » by Sark » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:30 am

DaGawd wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:This.. A lot of stars take a couple year before they truely elite alpha level players. It's amazing to me people are ready to give up on this kid 4 games into his sophomore season...



Alot of star dont regress in there second season only to get better again in there third. You see a gradual climb to stardom not step backs.

I am not giving up on him just stating facts his game has looked to regress some. Claims to be a hard worker but maybe didn't work on the things that matter? I think by the end of his career he will be in multiple all-star games.

I legit don't see any regression.. Ya'll are wylin right now



He's not touching the ball enough to show regression. His defense is suffering because he never touches the ball.

I wouldn't give a **** about defense either if I had 2 ballhogs taking every shot.
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#404 » by NOOB77 » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:30 am

Sark wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:This.. A lot of stars take a couple year before they truely elite alpha level players. It's amazing to me people are ready to give up on this kid 4 games into his sophomore season...



Alot of star dont regress in there second season only to get better again in there third. You see a gradual climb to stardom not step backs.

I am not giving up on him just stating facts his game has looked to regress some. Claims to be a hard worker but maybe didn't work on the things that matter? I think by the end of his career he will be in multiple all-star games.



Carmelo himself had a better rookie season that in his sophomore season. In his first 4 games of his 2nd season, he shot 9 for 22, 5 for 25, 3 for 20, and 5 for 14.

Do you really think Denver wanted to ship him out because his first 4 games were trash? KP in game 2 was better than anything Melo did in his first 4 of his second season.



But you have claimed for years now that Carmelo sucks and isn't a star player or superstar player and him and his career sucked. Now you stating Melo is a star?
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#405 » by ibraheim718 » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:31 am

Sark wrote:
Greenie wrote:
DaGawd wrote:This.. A lot of stars take a couple year before they truely elite alpha level players. It's amazing to me people are ready to give up on this kid 4 games into his sophomore season...

I wanted Towns.



Towns is averaging 16/7 on 46% shooting, while getting as many touches as he wants. If he were here, he'd be getting pushed around the same way KP has been. He still weak as **** too. They had to go give Dieng a ton of money because Towns ain't ready yet neither.


KP is averaging 18.. 4 more than he averaged last year on just 2 more shots.
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Re: RE: Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#406 » by TheBigBoss » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:31 am

BeagleBoss wrote:
KnicksGod wrote:All kidding aside, yeah there are some really bad signs that we can't totally ignore. But I think Jeff has it in him to figure this out.

But if this does not work out after 40, 50 games, the time will come this season (not the offseason) to trade Melo. At this point, can anyone say Melo would continue to enjoy another losing season and stick with the plan? He's already not quite with the plan to begin with.

Not with Phil sticking his nose and not allowing Hornecek to coach.


You were in the Knicks practice facility to witness this?
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#407 » by Greenie » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:31 am

Rotten Apple wrote:
CJackson wrote:That is also true for the most part. I'm never going to be imbalanced about it, but Melo really does care more about a maximum payout and being a New Yorker. That's not hate, just who he is.


Opinion, I'm not arguing with about that

I do think most of your POV is built off something we won't agree on. You think Melo is a great player. I think he is a great jump shooter, nothing more. In every other way, I consider him an average to inferior player. So instead of defaulting to an assumption that everything said about Melo comes from a place of raw emotion, examine your emotions more than mine or others, because there is nothing wrong with anyone stating what they see.


You don't know what I think Melo is first of all. For one I know he cannot carry us like he's 25 years old. I've always felt like he's best suited as a 1B. Like a James Worthy, who can lead you in scoring while also providing rebounding and passing and playing good enough defense but he can't be your best all around player nor your primary facilitator. In Denver they never added that 2nd scorer he needed after they added Billups and in New York well you've seen all the teammates, coaches and systems. Its not a recipe for success. I don't blame him for the ineptitude of the front office. He's not a perfect player yet the team we've built around him has highlighted his flaws where they are supposed to mask them. Its like putting LeBron on a team with no shooters, he'll look really human and get forced to do too much too often.

I see a really underwhelming star who thinks he is great. He's not great in my book. He's really beneficial in spurts and then he becomes an outright detriment to the team. I don't see any greatness in that. You think he is great. And we don't agree. Nothing to get wound up about.


Again stop telling me what I think. I never said he was great, I feel he can be a key piece to a team that wants to contend for a championship. Call it a 1B, a 2nd option or instant offense. Call it whatever you want but he's not going to carry a team to the promise land by himself, no one is. Thats why LeBron joins a Kyrie, Durant joins a Curry, Draymond and Klay. In New York he simply has to do too much for us to compete. Guys complain as if he's the reason we're down 9 but in reality he's the reason we're not down 29.

You guys can judge him as a player but my issue is we're always blind to the bigger issues. We lost this game against the Rockets and all I see is Melo bashing, its bigger than Melo, bigger than all the players. Y'all don't see that tho.

When Moses is going 0-4 and all you see is Melo's fuq ups...
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#408 » by NOOB77 » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:31 am

DaGawd wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:I legit don't see any regression.. Ya'll are wylin right now



So these first four games you see the same KP we saw last year?

Largely? Yes. Which isn't regression. I know we haven't seen a lot of nuances he was supposed to add yet but like I said the dude is still a pup and its only 4 games into his second season. Seem's like Knick fans really can't stand to see the maturation process, we need a ready made star that was developed elsewhere.



Maturation process means growth. I don't see what he has improved on so far.
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#409 » by Sark » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:32 am

NYKfan77 wrote:
Sark wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:

Alot of star dont regress in there second season only to get better again in there third. You see a gradual climb to stardom not step backs.

I am not giving up on him just stating facts his game has looked to regress some. Claims to be a hard worker but maybe didn't work on the things that matter? I think by the end of his career he will be in multiple all-star games.



Carmelo himself had a better rookie season that in his sophomore season. In his first 4 games of his 2nd season, he shot 9 for 22, 5 for 25, 3 for 20, and 5 for 14.

Do you really think Denver wanted to ship him out because his first 4 games were trash? KP in game 2 was better than anything Melo did in his first 4 of his second season.



But you have claimed for years now that Carmelo sucks and isn't a star player or superstar player and him and his career sucked. Now you stating Melo is a star?


He's old and washed up. But he's a 9 time All Star, and future Hall of Famer though, and was clearly a superstar for quite some time.
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#410 » by Takingbaconback » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:32 am

Dr. Detfink wrote:I blame the coach, Jeff Hornacek. This Phoenix product has no spine. He sells Phil on this idea that he's going to incorporate faster plays into the triangle and it goes colossally wrong. After 3 games, the Knicks look shockingly worse than they did under Fisher with better talent. They look a lot like the Francis and Marbury team under Larry Brown.

1. ISO-ball, Pick'n'Roll, Triangle..a mess of a play calls, NOT a system. Lee and Porzingis can only guess. When you are playing 3 systems, you don't have one. I think Hornacek just gives in his star players, going along with what makes them happy as opposed to Thibs who molds them together by playing HIS way. Personal numbers do not equal success and that was the fallacy of all the Marbury defenders. Yeah, "ME" guys have nice numbers but they don't get other players involved, meaning the opposition can just keep pace without spreading the D, and ultimately wait till they run tired. The Rockets actually expanded the lead with Harden on the bench.

2. Porzingis is NOT a 5. This is why I ultimately see Jeff Hornacek as the next Phoenix coach to screw up and get fired. Porzingis is not a pounder. His body is not ready for that kind of abuse. Jeff using him like the next Omar Asik because he is tall, will diminish his development. His effectiveness is drawing the opposition away from the basket. Ok, Ryan Anderson got a couple 3-pointers THREE steps away beyond the three point line. Let him take those shots, he won't do it all night. That leads to long rebounds and fast break the other way. But there's a reason why DJ Jazzy Jeff was convinced he had to force KP into that role...

3. Joakim Noah can't jump: Is it me or does Noah no longer looks like the guy who can block shots, defend the paint? Guys 2 inches shorter were taking him out of the play. For $18M a season, he reminds me of Mcdyess' tenure as a Knick. NO RIM PROTECTION. He can pass but that's it.

We'll see if the Knicks can straighten this out but damn, there is A LOT of work to do.


I agree with all your points except for point number 2. Porzingis should be a center. He is 7'2". A 7'2" guy should not be trying to guard all these smaller, quicker PF that the league is pumping out these days. I think it was pretty obvious Hornacek was using him as a PF, exactly like a Ryan Anderson. I don't care how skinny he is, he is 7'2" and especially with today's officiating where they don't allow guys to continue to bump or extend the arms inside, Porzingis should be effective with his quick feet and soft touch. He can still draw the opposition to the 3 point line as a center which is a much bigger mismatch than against a PF.

He's also going to be much more effective affecting shots in the paint rather than on the perimeter. He's the best rebounder and shot blocker this team has by far and his defensive impact would be felt much more often as a center.

The problem is the Knicks signed Noah so they wouldn't be able to abuse the opposition with Porzingis as a 5. As an outsider looking in, that is the biggest mistake the team has made. They need to pair him up with guys like Millsap, Favors, Griffin, Aldridge, Pau, Randolph etc. that can help him rebound inside but is an offensive threat.
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#411 » by Sark » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:34 am

ibraheim718 wrote:
Sark wrote:
Greenie wrote:I wanted Towns.



Towns is averaging 16/7 on 46% shooting, while getting as many touches as he wants. If he were here, he'd be getting pushed around the same way KP has been. He still weak as **** too. They had to go give Dieng a ton of money because Towns ain't ready yet neither.


KP is averaging 18.. 4 more than he averaged last year on just 2 more shots.



Don't let facts get in the way of a good narrative. KP averaging more than Towns, but he's clearly regressing.

Tonight he clearly checked out after watching Rose and Melo ballhog all night.
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#412 » by NOOB77 » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:34 am

Sark wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:
Sark wrote:

Carmelo himself had a better rookie season that in his sophomore season. In his first 4 games of his 2nd season, he shot 9 for 22, 5 for 25, 3 for 20, and 5 for 14.

Do you really think Denver wanted to ship him out because his first 4 games were trash? KP in game 2 was better than anything Melo did in his first 4 of his second season.



But you have claimed for years now that Carmelo sucks and isn't a star player or superstar player and him and his career sucked. Now you stating Melo is a star?


He's old and washed up. But he's a 9 time All Star, and future Hall of Famer though, and was clearly a superstar for quite some time.



Melo at the age of 20 was also a face of a franchise and lead that team to 49 wins. Here is hoping KP can do better.
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#413 » by ibraheim718 » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:35 am

NYKfan77 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:

So these first four games you see the same KP we saw last year?

Largely? Yes. Which isn't regression. I know we haven't seen a lot of nuances he was supposed to add yet but like I said the dude is still a pup and its only 4 games into his second season. Seem's like Knick fans really can't stand to see the maturation process, we need a ready made star that was developed elsewhere.



Maturation process means growth. I don't see what he has improved on so far.


4 more ppg on 2 more shots than his rookie year.
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#414 » by Rotten Apple » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:35 am

Greenie wrote:
Rotten Apple wrote:
CJackson wrote:That is also true for the most part. I'm never going to be imbalanced about it, but Melo really does care more about a maximum payout and being a New Yorker. That's not hate, just who he is.


Opinion, I'm not arguing with about that

I do think most of your POV is built off something we won't agree on. You think Melo is a great player. I think he is a great jump shooter, nothing more. In every other way, I consider him an average to inferior player. So instead of defaulting to an assumption that everything said about Melo comes from a place of raw emotion, examine your emotions more than mine or others, because there is nothing wrong with anyone stating what they see.


You don't know what I think Melo is first of all. For one I know he cannot carry us like he's 25 years old. I've always felt like he's best suited as a 1B. Like a James Worthy, who can lead you in scoring while also providing rebounding and passing and playing good enough defense but he can't be your best all around player nor your primary facilitator. In Denver they never added that 2nd scorer he needed after they added Billups and in New York well you've seen all the teammates, coaches and systems. Its not a recipe for success. I don't blame him for the ineptitude of the front office. He's not a perfect player yet the team we've built around him has highlighted his flaws where they are supposed to mask them. Its like putting LeBron on a team with no shooters, he'll look really human and get forced to do too much too often.

I see a really underwhelming star who thinks he is great. He's not great in my book. He's really beneficial in spurts and then he becomes an outright detriment to the team. I don't see any greatness in that. You think he is great. And we don't agree. Nothing to get wound up about.


Again stop telling me what I think. I never said he was great, I feel he can be a key piece to a team that wants to contend for a championship. Call it a 1B, a 2nd option or instant offense. Call it whatever you want but he's not going to carry a team to the promise land by himself, no one is. Thats why LeBron joins a Kyrie, Durant joins a Curry, Draymond and Klay. In New York he simply has to do too much for us to compete. Guys complain as if he's the reason we're down 9 but in reality he's the reason we're not down 29.

You guys can judge him as a player but my issue is we're always blind to the bigger issues. We lost this game against the Rockets and all I see is Melo bashing, its bigger than Melo, bigger than all the players. Y'all don't see that tho.

When Moses is going 0-4 and all you see is Melo's fuq ups...

Moses :lol:
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#415 » by DaGawd » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:35 am

NYKfan77 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:

So these first four games you see the same KP we saw last year?

Largely? Yes. Which isn't regression. I know we haven't seen a lot of nuances he was supposed to add yet but like I said the dude is still a pup and its only 4 games into his second season. Seem's like Knick fans really can't stand to see the maturation process, we need a ready made star that was developed elsewhere.



Maturation process means growth. I don't see what he has improved on so far.

lol..... 4 games into his second season... cmon man
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#416 » by Sark » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:35 am

KP last year: 14 ppg on 42%

KP this year, before tonight: 18 ppg, on 45%.

But yea, he's regressing.
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#417 » by Greenie » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:36 am

Sark wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:
Sark wrote:

Carmelo himself had a better rookie season that in his sophomore season. In his first 4 games of his 2nd season, he shot 9 for 22, 5 for 25, 3 for 20, and 5 for 14.

Do you really think Denver wanted to ship him out because his first 4 games were trash? KP in game 2 was better than anything Melo did in his first 4 of his second season.



But you have claimed for years now that Carmelo sucks and isn't a star player or superstar player and him and his career sucked. Now you stating Melo is a star?


He's old and washed up. But he's a 9 time All Star, and future Hall of Famer though, and was clearly a superstar for quite some time.

We need to be ahead of the curve with KP. He's washed up in only his second year!!!
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#418 » by Takingbaconback » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:37 am

ibraheim718 wrote:
Sark wrote:
Greenie wrote:I wanted Towns.



Towns is averaging 16/7 on 46% shooting, while getting as many touches as he wants. If he were here, he'd be getting pushed around the same way KP has been. He still weak as **** too. They had to go give Dieng a ton of money because Towns ain't ready yet neither.


KP is averaging 18.. 4 more than he averaged last year on just 2 more shots.


KAT also is off to a slower start right now. He doesn't get pushed around. KP wouldn't get pushed around either if they used him as a Center which is what Minnesota does.

And also they aren't giving Dieng the contract because KAT is not ready. It is because Dieng has been improving, he's been an absolute stud so far. Especially for that 4 yr/ 64 mil deal? That is a sensational value deal.
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#419 » by Greenie » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:38 am

Sark wrote:
ibraheim718 wrote:
Sark wrote:

Towns is averaging 16/7 on 46% shooting, while getting as many touches as he wants. If he were here, he'd be getting pushed around the same way KP has been. He still weak as **** too. They had to go give Dieng a ton of money because Towns ain't ready yet neither.


KP is averaging 18.. 4 more than he averaged last year on just 2 more shots.



Don't let facts get in the way of a good narrative. KP averaging more than Towns, but he's clearly regressing.

Tonight he clearly checked out after watching Rose and Melo ballhog all night.

Real stars shine no matter what. KP is garbage.
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Re: Knicks-Rockets PG: Who didn't see this coming? 

Post#420 » by NOOB77 » Thu Nov 3, 2016 5:38 am

ibraheim718 wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:
DaGawd wrote:Largely? Yes. Which isn't regression. I know we haven't seen a lot of nuances he was supposed to add yet but like I said the dude is still a pup and its only 4 games into his second season. Seem's like Knick fans really can't stand to see the maturation process, we need a ready made star that was developed elsewhere.



Maturation process means growth. I don't see what he has improved on so far.


4 more ppg on 2 more shots than his rookie year.



Is that before or after they add game 4

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