PG Thread: Oh no, we suck again!

[Fat]

Our best perimeter defenders McBride and Grimes glued to the bench while cole and Ross torched us hate to see it

L is on thibs

[mpharris36]

Yea, I dont know if we can get passed the first round. It might depend on the matchup. Hard to say in a vacuum what would be disappointing or not. If we get swept or out in 5 like we did last year that would be disappointing. If we at least put up a fight...not saying it wouldnt be disappointing either but in the grand scheme its not the worst thing.

Making the playoffs as a perenial team and building some excitement can be a step in the right direction. At least its in the back of players minds that they could be a missing piece. And hopefully Rose/WWW earn their money and can be good recruiters. Winning in NY as a Knick should be a huge selling point. No other place would be like this if you could win here.

I agree but that has been the case for a while. Even last year they were recruiting and still nothing this past trade deadline or offseason. I would like to stay patient with the approach its our only choice and they play a competitive brand of basketball which is nice as well.

But the leap of being where we are to actually acquiring that difference maker seems to be a bit harder even with a winning product and us being in NY then people might want to suggest.

We still have a ton of draft picks, movable contracts and we are a destination city. We also have about two to three years before we have to commit to a final core roster.

I think you are underselling the assets at our disposal. Most teams with players on the Under 24 list aren’t trading them for a star. It would be a lateral move at best. We have an All-NBA player in Randle. We have two players on that list in RJ and Mitch to trade. We also have Obi and Quickley who have potential to raise their trade value this season. We also have Grimes, McBride, Rokas and Sims who are unknowns.

Even if we make a splash it is likely that we keep a majority of our rookie contracts. The reality is that most NBA rosters can’t take back 4 players in a trade. Since we need Fournier or another big salary for contract matching we probably will only give up only 3 of our rookie players in a trade,(and a ton of picks) and that’s if it is for a tier-one star.

That still leaves us with 5 players on rookie contracts that we can package in another trade or to be used as depth pieces.

I think we have a lot of volume of assets. In picks and some young players. But not a lot of high end quality. Like we have decent pieces but nothing that will wow a team. Our additional picks are all pretty much lottery protected and our own pick has meh value since we will be a decent team. It will be more on the player leaving to single us out as a destination or there are teams with far better players and packages that could offer a more enticing package.

It will have to be a Nets situation but do people look at Julius the same way they look at KD to want to come and play with?

[evevale]

Read on Twitter

Just saw. They have Tyrese Maxey over RJ lol.

Maxey going to be top 3 on that list tomorrow after he drops 50 on Kemba Walkin

I'm honestly happy we lost last night - it snapped me out of my dementia and firmly placed me back into reality. I feel the same can be said about our Knicks. Losing to the worst was a necessary evil. You don't bring your best every night, especially without a true superstar, enjoy the embarrassment. There are no nights off when you're a team that focuses on a united effort.

I think the main question I have is - when/if Kemba gets relegated to off the bench duty, who steps in to start in his place? Can't confidently say we have any options that would improve our situation that much. Derrick is the anchor of our 2nd unit and I fear what would happen if we inserted him into the starting lineup where he has never really shown much cohesion with either Ju or RJ.

Oh well - at least Mitch is healthy and we always have options. Experimentation and open-mindedness is going to be key.

[mpharris36]

Our best perimeter defenders McBride and Grimes glued to the bench while cole and Ross torched us hate to see it

L is on thibs

I know you want it to happen but Thibs aint yanking Kemba/Burks/Rose/Fournier from the rotation. IQ minutes might be in jeopardy if he doesn't pick it up but that because he's a young player.

The man played Elfrid Payton an entire season he isn't going to yank guys that are even more established vets than Payton from the rotation even though he was detrimental to the team.

It was just one game but the guys we paid are going to have to just play better and compete better defensively.

[BugginOut]

I agree but that has been the case for a while. Even last year they were recruiting and still nothing this past trade deadline or offseason. I would like to stay patient with the approach its our only choice and they play a competitive brand of basketball which is nice as well.

But the leap of being where we are to actually acquiring that difference maker seems to be a bit harder even with a winning product and us being in NY then people might want to suggest.

We still have a ton of draft picks, movable contracts and we are a destination city. We also have about two to three years before we have to commit to a final core roster.

I think you are underselling the assets at our disposal. Most teams with players on the Under 24 list aren’t trading them for a star. It would be a lateral move at best. We have an All-NBA player in Randle. We have two players on that list in RJ and Mitch to trade. We also have Obi and Quickley who have potential to raise their trade value this season. We also have Grimes, McBride, Rokas and Sims who are unknowns.

Even if we make a splash it is likely that we keep a majority of our rookie contracts. The reality is that most NBA rosters can’t take back 4 players in a trade. Since we need Fournier or another big salary for contract matching we probably will only give up only 3 of our rookie players in a trade,(and a ton of picks) and that’s if it is for a tier-one star.

That still leaves us with 5 players on rookie contracts that we can package in another trade or to be used as depth pieces.

I think we have a lot of volume of assets. In picks and some young players. But not a lot of high end quality. Like we have decent pieces but nothing that will wow a team. Our additional picks are all pretty much lottery protected and our own pick has meh value since we will be a decent team. It will be more on the player leaving to single us out as a destination or there are teams with far better players and packages that could offer a more enticing package.

It will have to be a Nets situation but do people look at Julius the same way they look at KD to want to come and play with?

No player is going to demand out unless it’s to a particular team. That’s why the realistic targets are Donovan Mitchell, Booker and KAT as they have their deals expiring in the next 3 years.

I don’t know if Randle will be the draw. I think Leon will honestly be the main attraction. He has been the agent to half these guys in the league and has connections. I think him and World Wide West can sell them on NY if given an opportunity and if we remain competitive

[3toheadmelo]

Saw this on NBA.com but Kemba’s advance stats are horrible to start even though it’s only been 3 games

The Knicks have been 31.3 points per 100 possessions better with him off the floor (+22.1) than they’ve been with him on the floor (-9.2). https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612752/onoffcourt-summary/?sort=DIFF_NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

For comparison with Payton Knicks were only 8.9 points per 100 possessions better with him off the floor

With Boston last year the Celtics were 3.1 points per 100 possessions better with him ON the floor https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612738/onoffcourt-summary/?sort=DIFF_NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

So either Kemba has fell off a cliff or he really is having a tough time getting adjusted to the Knicks roster

He’s been trash since last years playoffs. He’s done. Occasionally he will have a good game like Payton but he’s washed

[mpharris36]

We still have a ton of draft picks, movable contracts and we are a destination city. We also have about two to three years before we have to commit to a final core roster.

I think you are underselling the assets at our disposal. Most teams with players on the Under 24 list aren’t trading them for a star. It would be a lateral move at best. We have an All-NBA player in Randle. We have two players on that list in RJ and Mitch to trade. We also have Obi and Quickley who have potential to raise their trade value this season. We also have Grimes, McBride, Rokas and Sims who are unknowns.

Even if we make a splash it is likely that we keep a majority of our rookie contracts. The reality is that most NBA rosters can’t take back 4 players in a trade. Since we need Fournier or another big salary for contract matching we probably will only give up only 3 of our rookie players in a trade,(and a ton of picks) and that’s if it is for a tier-one star.

That still leaves us with 5 players on rookie contracts that we can package in another trade or to be used as depth pieces.

I think we have a lot of volume of assets. In picks and some young players. But not a lot of high end quality. Like we have decent pieces but nothing that will wow a team. Our additional picks are all pretty much lottery protected and our own pick has meh value since we will be a decent team. It will be more on the player leaving to single us out as a destination or there are teams with far better players and packages that could offer a more enticing package.

It will have to be a Nets situation but do people look at Julius the same way they look at KD to want to come and play with?

No player is going to demand out unless it’s to a particular team. That’s why the realistic targets are Donovan Mitchell, Booker and KAT as they have their deals expiring in the next 3 years.

I don’t know if Randle will be the draw. I think Leon will honestly be the main attraction. He has been the agent to half these guys in the league and has connections. I think him and World Wide West can sell them on NY if given an opportunity and if we remain competitive

The problem remains is Utah and PHX are two of the best teams in the NBA. Currently better than us. So its odd that a star leaves a better team just because of location. KAT is probably your best bet if Minny flubs but Minny looks pretty decent too with Russell back and Ant jumping to a legit fringe star type guy.

If those teams are winning its unlikely those players make a big enough stink to ask out. Same with LaVine his situation has gotten better recently and as you have noticed stuff has quieted down on his front.

[GONYK]

I agree with parts and disagree with others.

The overall strategy does depend on some of the players. Like you said the team more relies on the sum of its parts then an individual player. But when a trade comes players like to be traded to a team that already has an established star.

For example if Randle gets shut down again in the post season I dopnt think people will look at him the same. Good player but if you can't get it done in the post season it wont look good. RJ needs to continue to make steps as well especially if he is going to be a sought after piece in a trade. It's why I didn't care as much about the post season results last year as much as how bad Randle looked.

Agreed, but that is different from the overall strategy. Right now, we're no different than what Miami has been doing since Bron left. Just keep making the playoffs, drafting well, and being opportunistic.

Since we don't play guys like IQ/Obi/Grimes/McBride much its not like they can headline a deal either. Unless you are expecting a player to ask for the Knicks specifically and just force the team trading for that player to accept whatever we give them. Which I don't see as something you can specifically bank on.

If these guys were headliners, they would be playing more.

I guess but Miami been kinda treadmilly no? Since Bron has left they win around 40ish games. They have missed the playoffs in 3 out of the 7 years. If you remove the fluky bubble year they really have bene a 1st round exit team even if they make the playoffs. I'm not saying you have to be a championship to validate a strategy I just wouldn't point the Miami as a success story.

I ask this question with true sincerity: If we exclude teams that are dumpster fires, isn't this true for everyone?

A baseline of competence is almost always ready to strike for the right opportunity.

To be honest more than there consistency FA's enjoy Miami (the weather and the no state income tax). I don't think think its as much as Pat Riley always be "opportunistic" as we may think. Miami has great weather and players make more there otherwise they have been pretty mediocre.

I'm not convinced players don't want to play in NY or that we aren't a top destination once we establish a baseline of competence. Maybe that's why I might be a little more optimistic about the strategy.

As for the players even if IQ/Obi played well they are still pretty capped out. Obi, who I was never that big a fan of, played well in the first two games and the minute we get another healthy center back thibs just throws small ball into the dumpster. There is very few range for those guys to get more minutes with the vets in front of them.

They could outplay the vets.

I think RJ is a great example of Thibs not being afraid to ride a young player who is still figuring it out if that young player provides the best opportunity to win.

I ask again though, what is the alternative in your mind? Prioritize showcasing players over winning? Have a less deep team for the purpose of getting those players on the floor?

I hope it's not coming across as me accusing you of having these positions, I'm just trying to get the root of the discussion.

[WargamesX]

Our best perimeter defenders McBride and Grimes glued to the bench while cole and Ross torched us hate to see it

L is on thibs

I know you want it to happen but Thibs aint yanking Kemba/Burks/Rose/Fournier from the rotation. IQ minutes might be in jeopardy if he doesn't pick it up but that because he's a young player.

The man played Elfrid Payton an entire season he isn't going to yank guys that are even more established vets than Payton from the rotation even though he was detrimental to the team.

It was just one game but the guys we paid are going to have to just play better and compete better defensively.

He’ll probably give both situational minutes and if they do well, reward them with more. It’s still too early in the season and honestly probably won’t start until the main team looks like it has more chemistry.

[WargamesX]

I think we have a lot of volume of assets. In picks and some young players. But not a lot of high end quality. Like we have decent pieces but nothing that will wow a team. Our additional picks are all pretty much lottery protected and our own pick has meh value since we will be a decent team. It will be more on the player leaving to single us out as a destination or there are teams with far better players and packages that could offer a more enticing package.

It will have to be a Nets situation but do people look at Julius the same way they look at KD to want to come and play with?

No player is going to demand out unless it’s to a particular team. That’s why the realistic targets are Donovan Mitchell, Booker and KAT as they have their deals expiring in the next 3 years.

I don’t know if Randle will be the draw. I think Leon will honestly be the main attraction. He has been the agent to half these guys in the league and has connections. I think him and World Wide West can sell them on NY if given an opportunity and if we remain competitive

The problem remains is Utah and PHX are two of the best teams in the NBA. Currently better than us. So its odd that a star leaves a better team just because of location. KAT is probably your best bet if Minny flubs but Minny looks pretty decent too with Russell back and Ant jumping to a legit fringe star type guy.

If those teams are winning its unlikely those players make a big enough stink to ask out. Same with LaVine his situation has gotten better recently and as you have noticed stuff has quieted down on his front.

It’s hard to say “grab a star” right now. One of the unspoken issues with the league is the best players are on their last legs and the best young players (Luka, Trae, Tatum, Brown, etc) aren’t in their primes yet but will be soon. Knicks need to not worry about a “Star” and need to try and Guy with skill and upside in a bad situation roster wise. Are current squad is full of examples of productive players who were in bad situations. Those are the guys they should continue to grab because it’s actually messy to acquire anyone else.

[whocares1]

Saw this on NBA.com but Kemba’s advance stats are horrible to start even though it’s only been 3 games

The Knicks have been 31.3 points per 100 possessions better with him off the floor (+22.1) than they’ve been with him on the floor (-9.2). https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612752/onoffcourt-summary/?sort=DIFF_NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

For comparison with Payton Knicks were only 8.9 points per 100 possessions better with him off the floor

With Boston last year the Celtics were 3.1 points per 100 possessions better with him ON the floor https://www.nba.com/stats/team/1610612738/onoffcourt-summary/?sort=DIFF_NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

So either Kemba has fell off a cliff or he really is having a tough time getting adjusted to the Knicks roster

He’s been trash since last years playoffs. He’s done. Occasionally he will have a good game like Payton but he’s washed

Well that’s also because Walker doesn’t play next to the player that’s been the best on the team (Rose) and he’s just a spot shooter in the starting lineup. Team defense has just been atrocious overall.

[mpharris36]

Agreed, but that is different from the overall strategy. Right now, we're no different than what Miami has been doing since Bron left. Just keep making the playoffs, drafting well, and being opportunistic.



If these guys were headliners, they would be playing more.

I guess but Miami been kinda treadmilly no? Since Bron has left they win around 40ish games. They have missed the playoffs in 3 out of the 7 years. If you remove the fluky bubble year they really have bene a 1st round exit team even if they make the playoffs. I'm not saying you have to be a championship to validate a strategy I just wouldn't point the Miami as a success story.

I ask this question with true sincerity: If we exclude teams that are dumpster fires, isn't this true for everyone?

A baseline of competence is almost always ready to strike for the right opportunity.

To be honest more than there consistency FA's enjoy Miami (the weather and the no state income tax). I don't think think its as much as Pat Riley always be "opportunistic" as we may think. Miami has great weather and players make more there otherwise they have been pretty mediocre.

I'm not convinced players don't want to play in NY or that we aren't a top destination once we establish a baseline of competence. Maybe that's why I might be a little more optimistic about the strategy.

As for the players even if IQ/Obi played well they are still pretty capped out. Obi, who I was never that big a fan of, played well in the first two games and the minute we get another healthy center back thibs just throws small ball into the dumpster. There is very few range for those guys to get more minutes with the vets in front of them.

They could outplay the vets.

I think RJ is a great example of Thibs not being afraid to ride a young player who is still figuring it out if that young player provides the best opportunity to win.

I ask again though, what is the alternative in your mind? Prioritize showcasing players over winning? Have a less deep team for the purpose of getting those players on the floor?

I hope it's not coming across as me accusing you of having these positions, I'm just trying to get the root of the discussion.

These are all fair questions.

As far as the knicks being a destination I still have to see it to believe it. Too many times have we be spurned. We have LeBron tweeting about the Garden all the time now...the fans going crazy. But when is it time for a player to step up and want the smoke an play here? Talking about it is nice but acting on it is different.

Regarding your question I agree outside of a few actual championship contenders and the few tanking teams the rest are kinda in the middle ground competing for a baseline of competence waiting for the next move whether drafting someone or trading for someone when the become available. I guess the difference is some of these teams in the same boat already have a potential star. With Luka/Ja/Trae/Tatum even teams like CHA or Minny you can see early signs from LaMelo or Ant. I guess if we believe Randle is that piece to attract another star but does the league see it that way as well? Time will tell.

As far as the alternative, once we brought on thibs there was no other alternative. It was win at all costs. One bad loss isn't going to make me overreact but I have been consistent thinking just winning and NY is going to land us a star I think its easier said then done.

An alternative could be you can still be competitive and win. But devleop your young players into larger role instead of blocking them with vets. For example Bane/Melton have been huge Memphis I feel like we have built a roster that we will never be able to tell if Grims or McBride can have that impact over say an Burks.

Now does Burks provide better results in the near term? Sure but enough where we wouldn't be able to still make the playoffs (I don't think so).

RJ is a unique situation where he was our top 3 pick. So we have a lot more invested in him then the others so he does get a longer leash to make mistakes then say Obi/IQ. But Kemba hasn't been good but there is also no threat of him losing his job or minutes either.

I guess I see a little bit of a middle ground. When you want to see some of the young guys continue to play and grow that doesn't mean you want a David FIzdale situation who I hated the hire to begin with because he doesn't know a single thing about developing young players. But there is a middle ground where we didn't have to pay Noel and Burks and trust more small ball with obi or free minutes for Grimes or McBride to have a chance to crack the rotation. I am not suggesting just tank until kingdom come. Maybe a happy medium?

[mpharris36]

Our best perimeter defenders McBride and Grimes glued to the bench while cole and Ross torched us hate to see it

L is on thibs

I know you want it to happen but Thibs aint yanking Kemba/Burks/Rose/Fournier from the rotation. IQ minutes might be in jeopardy if he doesn't pick it up but that because he's a young player.

The man played Elfrid Payton an entire season he isn't going to yank guys that are even more established vets than Payton from the rotation even though he was detrimental to the team.

It was just one game but the guys we paid are going to have to just play better and compete better defensively.

He’ll probably give both situational minutes and if they do well, reward them with more. It’s still too early in the season and honestly probably won’t start until the main team looks like it has more chemistry.

Basketball is a rhythmic sport. You can watch a young player suck for 6 minutes then play well in the next 6.

Very rarely will a young player thrive in spot minutes with limited opportunity. Tough to find consistency which is what Obi/IQ are struggling with right now as our 9th and 10th guys off the bench.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Kemba's the new escape goat

[robillionaire]

I say we still need to give Kemba 10-15 more games to prove beyond all doubt his career is over. He’s home and now he’s about to get put in a home.

We can try IQ to replace him but he doesn’t look promising lately, and McBride probably isn’t good either. Let’s hope John Wall gets bought out I guess

[WargamesX]

I know you want it to happen but Thibs aint yanking Kemba/Burks/Rose/Fournier from the rotation. IQ minutes might be in jeopardy if he doesn't pick it up but that because he's a young player.

The man played Elfrid Payton an entire season he isn't going to yank guys that are even more established vets than Payton from the rotation even though he was detrimental to the team.

It was just one game but the guys we paid are going to have to just play better and compete better defensively.

He’ll probably give both situational minutes and if they do well, reward them with more. It’s still too early in the season and honestly probably won’t start until the main team looks like it has more chemistry.

Basketball is a rhythmic sport. You can watch a young player suck for 6 minutes then play well in the next 6.

Very rarely will a young player thrive in spot minutes with limited opportunity. Tough to find consistency which is what Obi/IQ are struggling with right now as our 9th and 10th guys off the bench.

I agree, but I can’t think of any other approach. The team has guys in their Prime starting and subs who are mostly younger outside of RJ. It’s the only way that makes sense and I actually think it can help guys come on slow because they are doing development behind the scenes. Eventually they get a spot in the rotation like Obi and IQ and can fine tune their game in limited action.

[mpharris36]

I say we still need to give Kemba 10-15 more games to prove beyond all doubt his career is over. He’s home and now he’s about to get put in a home.

We can try IQ to replace him but he doesn’t look promising lately, and McBride probably isn’t good either. Let’s hope John Wall gets bought out I guess

His shooting has actually been really good. When he's never been a 40% guy in his career. Its his distributing/breaking down the defense along with his lack of defense which is a concern.

He is shooting it well though so that is a plus but the other parts of his game probably are what they are. He's always been a horrid defender he just could be a main engine for an offense which made up for it...now that really isn't the case.

Its tough to be a 3rd/4th option in a lineup on offense and hurt the team on defense which he does.

[mpharris36]

He’ll probably give both situational minutes and if they do well, reward them with more. It’s still too early in the season and honestly probably won’t start until the main team looks like it has more chemistry.

Basketball is a rhythmic sport. You can watch a young player suck for 6 minutes then play well in the next 6.

Very rarely will a young player thrive in spot minutes with limited opportunity. Tough to find consistency which is what Obi/IQ are struggling with right now as our 9th and 10th guys off the bench.

I agree, but I can’t think of any other approach. The team has guys in their Prime starting and subs who are mostly younger outside of RJ. It’s the only way that makes sense and I actually think it can help guys come on slow because they are doing development behind the scenes. Eventually they get a spot in the rotation like Obi and IQ and can fine tune their game in limited action.

I get it and its the way we are built so this is what we have. I get development can come in different forms.

But nothing matches in game action. McBride and Grimes can shoot after games all they want but nothing will replicate game action. They just wont get it on this team with the current roster construction.

[GONYK]

I guess but Miami been kinda treadmilly no? Since Bron has left they win around 40ish games. They have missed the playoffs in 3 out of the 7 years. If you remove the fluky bubble year they really have bene a 1st round exit team even if they make the playoffs. I'm not saying you have to be a championship to validate a strategy I just wouldn't point the Miami as a success story.

I ask this question with true sincerity: If we exclude teams that are dumpster fires, isn't this true for everyone?

A baseline of competence is almost always ready to strike for the right opportunity.

To be honest more than there consistency FA's enjoy Miami (the weather and the no state income tax). I don't think think its as much as Pat Riley always be "opportunistic" as we may think. Miami has great weather and players make more there otherwise they have been pretty mediocre.

I'm not convinced players don't want to play in NY or that we aren't a top destination once we establish a baseline of competence. Maybe that's why I might be a little more optimistic about the strategy.

As for the players even if IQ/Obi played well they are still pretty capped out. Obi, who I was never that big a fan of, played well in the first two games and the minute we get another healthy center back thibs just throws small ball into the dumpster. There is very few range for those guys to get more minutes with the vets in front of them.

They could outplay the vets.

I think RJ is a great example of Thibs not being afraid to ride a young player who is still figuring it out if that young player provides the best opportunity to win.

I ask again though, what is the alternative in your mind? Prioritize showcasing players over winning? Have a less deep team for the purpose of getting those players on the floor?

I hope it's not coming across as me accusing you of having these positions, I'm just trying to get the root of the discussion.

These are all fair questions.

As far as the knicks being a destination I still have to see it to believe it. Too many times have we be spurned. We have LeBron tweeting about the Garden all the time now...the fans going crazy. But when is it time for a player to step up and want the smoke an play here? Talking about it is nice but acting on it is different.

Fair

Regarding your question I agree outside of a few actual championship contenders and the few tanking teams the rest are kinda in the middle ground competing for a baseline of competence waiting for the next move whether drafting someone or trading for someone when the become available. I guess the difference is some of these teams in the same boat already have a potential star. With Luka/Ja/Trae/Tatum even teams like CHA or Minny you can see early signs from LaMelo or Ant. I guess if we believe Randle is that piece to attract another star but does the league see it that way as well? Time will tell.

Those players are all good. Which star is in a rush to play in Minny, Cha, ATL, BOS or even Dallas as a result? None of those guys are Lebron. Luka is the closest, and he's probably going to have to leave Dallas before he does any serious winning, because Dallas has mismanaged their assets.

I would say out of that list, Luka and Trae are #1 options on a championship team. Maaaaybe Tatum. Otherwise, we're looking at quite a few Robins. Which isn't an insult. Melo was a Robin. But then team building becomes the priority, and then are back in the same boat we are.

Playoff team with a Robin as their #1, looking to add a star via trade.

As far as the alternative, once we brought on thibs there was no other alternative. It was win at all costs. One bad loss isn't going to make me overreact but I have been consistent thinking just winning and NY is going to land us a star I think its easier said then done.

An alternative could be you can still be competitive and win. But devleop your young players into larger role instead of blocking them with vets. For example Bane/Melton have been huge Memphis I feel like we have built a roster that we will never be able to tell if Grims or McBride can have that impact over say an Burks.

Now does Burks provide better results in the near term? Sure but enough where we wouldn't be able to still make the playoffs (I don't think so).

RJ is a unique situation where he was our top 3 pick. So we have a lot more invested in him then the others so he does get a longer leash to make mistakes then say Obi/IQ. But Kemba hasn't been good but there is also no threat of him losing his job or minutes either.

Burks is here to get traded in the right deal. He will play in the meantime because he provides the best chance of winning, but his salary screams "movable productive vet in a bigger deal". Same with Noel, same with Rose TBH.

I don't see enough to say that Grimes should be getting time over him. Grimes is basically Bullock (in terms of archetype) and we need more creation. There is a premium in the league for wings who can shoot and make plays off the bounce.

Playing Grimes, or Obi, or IQ, or Deuce doesn't automatically lead to them playing well or improving their value either.

I guess I see a little bit of a middle ground. When you want to see some of the young guys continue to play and grow that doesn't mean you want a David FIzdale situation who I hated the hire to begin with because he doesn't know a single thing about developing young players. But there is a middle ground where we didn't have to pay Noel and Burks and trust more small ball with obi or free minutes for Grimes or McBride to have a chance to crack the rotation. I am not suggesting just tank until kingdom come. Maybe a happy medium?

I get that, but why? We have more options now. You are expressing a preference for a different option than the one Thibs prefers, but I don't think the answer is to assemble a worse roster than you can just to take options away from Thibs.

Which is why I want to be intentional in separating questions of overall strategy from questions of this year's team.

[robillionaire]

I say we still need to give Kemba 10-15 more games to prove beyond all doubt his career is over. He’s home and now he’s about to get put in a home.

We can try IQ to replace him but he doesn’t look promising lately, and McBride probably isn’t good either. Let’s hope John Wall gets bought out I guess

His shooting has actually been really good. When he's never been a 40% guy in his career. Its his distributing/breaking down the defense along with his lack of defense which is a concern.

He is shooting it well though so that is a plus but the other parts of his game probably are what they are. He's always been a horrid defender he just could be a main engine for an offense which made up for it...now that really isn't the case.

Its tough to be a 3rd/4th option in a lineup on offense and hurt the team on defense which he does.

I’m not concerned with defense from because it’s a expected weakness. But he’s supposed to be able to score points and he isn’t. The 3pt shooting percentage is encouraging but it’s not a high enough volume to make up for everything else. If he’s just going to be a 3rd or 4th option he’s useless. I figured he’d at least be able to drop 15-20ppg range if healthy, which he seems to be.