O.T. .::THE SCIENCE AND PHILOSOPHY THREAD::.

[Deeeez Knicks]

But how do you explain the guys that started it all coming foward?

http://www.mythsdreamssymbols.com/cropcircles.html

Theres entire communitys of people that make crop circles

http://www.circlemakers.org/case_history.html

Its a scam. Its already been proven. Why would aliens, secret societys, whatever copy scammers? The scammers have just gotten smarter. Then, when the experts cant figure out how they did it, its got to be some type of "magic".

All the other stuff is pretty much BS.

http://www.circlemakers.org/mythmen.html

This sums it up in general

This list of urban legend hoaxes debunked reveals a disturbing pattern - a lack of critical thinking when most people are faced with outrageous claims. This could stem from a normal human tendency to see patterns where none exists, or it could be that, in general, people believe in things that confirm their own prior beliefs, and whether or not there's evidence to the contrary is inconsequential. This is why hoaxes perform so well throughout the paranormal, and it's why solid and legitimate research of the various phenomena remains a rarity.

[TrueWarrior]

OK, and I dismissed it for a reason. It is some no name website with an agenda. Show me a scientific journal article - there are none because this is such a non-issue. No debate. No conspiracy. Just some people with boards doing some cool artwork.

The manipulation of molecules isn't occurring. Sorry.

And since you love quotes, from Nature:

Artists will seek faster methods to maintain the movement's evolution. Intriguingly, biophysicists who investigated 250 recent pictographs found that the knuckle-like joints of bent stalks were longer than those on untouched stalks from the same field. The observed elongation and swelling of these joints has been replicated using microwaves to superheat the stalks, causing them to fall over. Some patterns may have been sculpted using microwave generators, such as masers or magnetrons from microwave ovens.

The covert nature of the crop-circle movement fuels a cat-and-mouse game between artist and researcher. To appreciate a pictograph's intricacy, one must take to the air, sometimes photographing a pattern only minutes before it falls under the blades of a harvester. Each season's designs are published in a catalogue and their artistic evolution is discussed by dedicated societies. The good news is that these modern mathematical artworks may soon be exhibited in a field near you.

Stop acting like I haven't done research because I dismiss your random websites "facts" Obviously the witnesses weren't lying right? The reason I brought up the Illuminati is because you base alot of your beliefs on these witnesses and "scientists" and you told me I can't possibly believe they are all just making it up. But in Illuminati arguments you switch it around - everyone is making it up and lying about everything! Can't have it both ways.

http://www.bltresearch.com/proffcons.php

Took me 2 seconds to find, and there are many sites like this. Look not many scientists devote their whole lives to crop circles as IDK how much money is involved there lol, but there have def been experiments done on them that you can find (and Ive already posted some).

No matter what I give you you wont believe it obviously. The site I posted before that you dismissed gives sources for you to check yourself from scientists, pilots, witnessess, etc so IDK what you're talking about.

And the whole point of the Illuminati stuff is that high ranking government, military, and business people are behind it. Not some no name witnesses or research scientists. Yes some scientists and media are mouthpieces for the government, but not all of them (see Scientists for 9/11 truth).

But stop changing the subject. Look up stuff yourself because Im not doing it all for you.

The point as Rich said there is no concrete proof of the alien or board theories regarding crop circles, but ALOT more of the board theory cannot be explained by the evidence and witnesses. That is not up for debate unless everyone of these people are lying.

Watch the Disclosure Project I posted on the first page. Again you be the judge if the government is covering anything up.

[TrueWarrior]

But how do you explain the guys that started it all coming foward?

http://www.mythsdreamssymbols.com/cropcircles.html

Theres entire communitys of people that make crop circles

http://www.circlemakers.org/case_history.html

Its a scam. Its already been proven. Why would aliens, secret societys, whatever copy scammers? The scammers have just gotten smarter. Then, when the experts cant figure out how they did it, its got to be some type of "magic".

All the other stuff is pretty much BS.

http://www.circlemakers.org/mythmen.html

This sums it up in general

This list of urban legend hoaxes debunked reveals a disturbing pattern - a lack of critical thinking when most people are faced with outrageous claims. This could stem from a normal human tendency to see patterns where none exists, or it could be that, in general, people believe in things that confirm their own prior beliefs, and whether or not there's evidence to the contrary is inconsequential. This is why hoaxes perform so well throughout the paranormal, and it's why solid and legitimate research of the various phenomena remains a rarity.

Read this

http://www.controversial-science.com/cu ... arison.htm

It doesnt add up. Im sorry.

[fazzk7]

Again, stop saying things like "look it up yourself" "I wont look it up for you"

I have already read these garbage websites. ANYONE can make a website ok?

Remember a few posts back my quote I made up that you asked for the source? What if I had given you some random website. What if that website had more information that related and supported what I said. Would you all of a sudden be convinced??

And since you like to talk about "dismissing" so much - thanks for dismissing the Nature article. You know, a real publication.

[TrueWarrior]

Again, stop saying things like "look it up yourself" "I wont look it up for you"

I have already read these garbage websites. ANYONE can make a website ok?

Remember a few posts back my quote I made up that you asked for the source? What if I had given you some random website. What if that website had more information that related and supported what I said. Would you all of a sudden be convinced??

And since you like to talk about "dismissing" so much - thanks for dismissing the Nature article. You know, a real publication.

LOL this is the most garbage logic Ive ever heard.

Point is you didnt give me a source. I did with all my websites. Anyone can make a website? I just posted a bunch of scientists who study crop circles. What the hell do you want?

The quote from Nature proved what exactly? That the nodes from the plants needed to be heated up from a microwave in order to be expanded? How does that help your argument? How do humans do that?

[KnicksPie]

Look up dulce base in new mexico. It is by far the most insane thing If you are one for conspiracy or just aliens for that matter

[fazzk7]

I did give you a source, a published journal.

It was one of the points in your amazing video about the lengthening of nodes, also stated on your random websites...do you even read your own garbage?

Secondly, what do I want? NOT some random website!! There are websites about EVERYTHING posted everywhere on the internet! You believe all of it apparently....

[Deeeez Knicks]

But how do you explain the guys that started it all coming foward?

http://www.mythsdreamssymbols.com/cropcircles.html

Theres entire communitys of people that make crop circles

http://www.circlemakers.org/case_history.html

Its a scam. Its already been proven. Why would aliens, secret societys, whatever copy scammers? The scammers have just gotten smarter. Then, when the experts cant figure out how they did it, its got to be some type of "magic".

All the other stuff is pretty much BS.

http://www.circlemakers.org/mythmen.html

This sums it up in general

This list of urban legend hoaxes debunked reveals a disturbing pattern - a lack of critical thinking when most people are faced with outrageous claims. This could stem from a normal human tendency to see patterns where none exists, or it could be that, in general, people believe in things that confirm their own prior beliefs, and whether or not there's evidence to the contrary is inconsequential. This is why hoaxes perform so well throughout the paranormal, and it's why solid and legitimate research of the various phenomena remains a rarity.

Read this

http://www.controversial-science.com/cu ... arison.htm

It doesnt add up. Im sorry.

* Fails to explain most noted physical anomalies
* Ignores peer reviewed evidence
* Ignores all witness testimony except that of admitted hoaxers, who rarely offer specific evidence of hoaxing
* Ignores all video and photographic evidence showing the presence of plasma-like "balls of light" in association with crop formations
* Assumes, without specific evidence, that 99% of phenomenon can be explained by 1% of known hoaxes
* It has not been demonstrated that hoaxers are capable of creating the largest, most complicated glyphs known
* Requires the existence of many as yet unidentified teams of hoaxers skilled in geometry and engineering, working worldwide and capable of escaping detection

I dunno..There arguments against sound pretty weak. Especially when hoaxers have proven they can make complex shapes. 3 dudes in 3 hours can do a lot of damage. You make it 6, 9, 12 etc and you quadruple your output. P

Physical anamolies? Microwaved planks? Or I'm sure you could put some kind of chemicals on the planks or whatever

Eyewitness's are shady. Especially when the same farmers charge $5 a head to see there crop circles.

Plus, again...are the aliens copying the pranksters??

[TrueWarrior]

I did give you a source, a published journal.

It was one of the points in your amazing video about the lengthening of nodes, also stated on your random websites...do you even read your own garbage?

Secondly, what do I want? NOT some random website!! There are websites about EVERYTHING posted everywhere on the internet! You believe all of it apparently....

Heres national geographic: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... earth.html

Most of these works of cereal art are certainly produced by human crop circle makers, for instance by dragging planks attached to ropes.

But don't assume they all are, U.K. crop circle researcher Karen Alexander said.

"There's no doubt that some crop circles are made by people and that some are made for advertising campaigns and so forth," said Alexander, co-author of Crop Circles: Signs, Wonders, and Mysteries.

"But then there's quite a large percentage for which origin is just unknown."

Alternative explanations range from natural phenomena such as whirlwinds to visitations by aliens in UFOs.

"There are lots of other equally strange ideas," Alexander said. "People talk about earth energies, or think that earth spirits perhaps make them."

"Crop circles 'like' ancient sites," she noted. Wiltshire—generally acknowledged as crop circle central—is littered with Stone Age monuments, including Stonehenge. (See "Huge Pre-Stonehenge Complex Found via 'Crop Circles.'")

Alexander herself remains "totally open-minded."

"I just think they're a fascinating cultural phenomenon," she said.

Again what did your source prove? All you're doing is confirming that there indeed is some sort of molecule change at the scenes that can only be replicated with a microwave. You think the hoaxers microwaved the crops? What are you getting at?

The only explanation of the nodes are some sort of unknown source. Either a satellite with a microwave laser or alien activity. Humans with boards and ropes cannot do that.

You have so much evidence working against you. The only way your theory adds up is if all of these scientists, evidence, and witnesses are lying. All of them. Its a known fact that a very small % of crop circles are man made, but that doesnt mean all of them are.

[fazzk7]

You keep asking me what my article proved - and it is that there is a perfectly logical explanation to the lengthening nodes that can be replicated. I have stated that a few times now.

Evidence working against me? Are you counting all the made up facts from your websites? Do any real publications state these "facts" Oh, look, national geographic. What does it say? Well, nothing about the "facts" from your websites, only that there is some lady who is "open-minded"....thaaanks...

And all of them are lying. That CAN"T be hard for YOU to believe of all people can it? That a huge group of people are lying about something? Something they want to hide and makeup?? No way...

And for future reference, if you do not know an explanation to a problem, please don't fill it in with crazy ideas and try to support those ideas retroactively.

[TrueWarrior]

All Im saying is most people swear that God is real and Jesus is the son of God (with no actual proof but just have a book and faith in it). Im not turning this into a religion thread but how is it so outrageous to believe in aliens when most people spend their lives worshipping something and somebody they cant prove? Is it because aliens go against the bible?

Most kids believe in Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc when they are younger just because their parents say they are real and its fun to believe in them, even if their gut tells some of them they arent real. While some kids genuinely believed in all of them and are heart broken to find out they arent. What if people really believed in Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, and the likes as adults? Would people grow up believing them just because thats what they were told their whole lives? Think about it. Its no different than believing in Jesus. Some people would dismiss them since there is no proof (atheists) but theres no doubt that some would SWEAR that they were real.

Im a Christian and believe in the good messages of the Bible and its method of telling you how to live your life as a good person but most of whats in the Bible are flat out lies. Yet millions of people SWEAR by its stories with NO proof, and then dismiss everything alien related even if there is more proof of aliens existing than Jesus being the son of God or God existing in the first place. Why isnt that considered crazy?

Aliens existing is something that hasnt been proven directly, yet there are thousands of eye witnesses and government, military, and NASA officials who have stated they are real. Yet most people still wont believe them until aliens land in their backyards and smoke a blunt with them. Even in that case when they tell others of their story everyone will just think they are crazy (like people who swear they have been abducted, all tell of the same events, and havent been the same since).

Point is who do you think you are telling people what is real or not? Just because the government doesnt admit aliens exist that means they dont? What if they came out tomorrow and said they exist? Would you automatically believe in aliens then? Even after completely dismissing aliens your whole life? Seriously what would you believe? I bet most people would change their tune in an INSTANT, while perhaps some highly religious individuals riot and call the government devil worshippers or something. So either the government doesnt want to tell us because they think we cant handle it or they just dont want to tell us period. I still dont know how somebody who has done enough research can still reasonably believe that aliens havent been visiting us, and even if they dont believe they have been to Earth how can you believe we are the only lifeforms in the universe, but then go ahead and believe in God?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mAdrSvOgwI[/youtube]

[fazzk7]

All Im saying is most people swear that God is real and Jesus is the son of God (with no actual proof but just have a book and faith in it). Im not turning this into a religion thread but how is it so outrageous to believe in aliens when most people spend their lives worshipping something and somebody they cant prove? Is it because aliens go against the bible?

Most kids believe in Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc when they are younger just because their parents say they are real and its fun to believe in them, even if their gut tells some of them they arent real. While some kids genuinely believed in all of them and are heart broken to find out they arent. What if people really believed in Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, and the likes as adults? Would people grow up believing them just because thats what they were told their whole lives? Think about it. Its no different than believing in Jesus. Some people would dismiss them since there is no proof (atheists) but theres no doubt that some would SWEAR that they were real.

Im a Christian and believe in the good messages of the Bible and its method of telling you how to live your life as a good person but most of whats in the Bible are flat out lies. Yet millions of people SWEAR by its stories with NO proof, and then dismiss everything alien related even if there is more proof of aliens existing than Jesus being the son of God or God existing in the first place. Why isnt that considered crazy?

Aliens existing is something that hasnt been proven directly, yet there are thousands of eye witnesses and government, military, and NASA officials who have stated they are real. Yet most people still wont believe them until aliens land in their backyards and smoke a blunt with them. Even in that case when they tell others of their story everyone will just think they are crazy (like people who swear they have been abducted, all tell of the same events, and havent been the same since).

Point is who do you think you are telling people what is real or not? Just because the government doesnt admit aliens exist that means they dont? What if they came out tomorrow and said they exist? Would you automatically believe in aliens then? Even after completely dismissing aliens your whole life? Seriously what would you believe? I bet most people would change their tune in an INSTANT, while perhaps some highly religious individuals riot and call the government devil worshippers or something. So either the government doesnt want to tell us because they think we cant handle it or they just dont want to tell us period. I still dont know how somebody who has done enough research can still reasonably believe that aliens havent been visiting us, and even if they dont believe they have been to Earth how can you believe we are the only lifeforms in the universe, but then go ahead and believe in God?

Well its funny that you brought up the God belief because I think those ideas are crazy as well. But I never said its my place to tell people what to believe - you can believe whatever you want! God, Aliens, whatever. However, what I believe in depends on the evidence at hand. In the case of crop circles, truly the evidence supports the idea that they are man-made (We have argued at length that I think your websites are just madeup facts). So true, if aliens showed up tomorrow, I would believe them.

So again, comparing the idea of aliens to god is somewhat similar. In another too long to post argument, I am not an absolutist in any sense, therefore I cannot say anything is true with certainty, however I am lead to believe what I do because of the support I see. In the case of aliens, I do not see much support, only the fact that our universe is so large and we have only seen such a small part of it - but really thats not supporting evidence is it? That is more like "there is a legit possibility" - but like I said - I believe ANYTHING has possibility, no matter how stupid or crazy it sounds. For practical purposes, I argue my beliefs as truths and facts, when nothing can be certain as I said above.

[TrueWarrior]

Well its funny that you brought up the God belief because I think those ideas are crazy as well. But I never said its my place to tell people what to believe - you can believe whatever you want! God, Aliens, whatever. However, what I believe in depends on the evidence at hand. In the case of crop circles, truly the evidence supports the idea that they are man-made (We have argued at length that I think your websites are just madeup facts). So true, if aliens showed up tomorrow, I would believe them.

So again, comparing the idea of aliens to god is somewhat similar. In another too long to post argument, I am not an absolutist in any sense, therefore I cannot say anything is true with certainty, however I am lead to believe what I do because of the support I see. In the case of aliens, I do not see much support, only the fact that our universe is so large and we have only seen such a small part of it - but really thats not supporting evidence is it? That is more like "there is a legit possibility" - but like I said - I believe ANYTHING has possibility, no matter how stupid or crazy it sounds. For practical purposes, I argue my beliefs as truths and facts, when nothing can be certain as I said above.

Well Im happy we can agree on something. The point is that some of the same people who whole heartedly worship God whole heartedly dismiss aliens and other things like them as crazy.

I mean how can you believe in the Bible but also believe in Dinosaurs? I dont think you can honestly. They contradict eachother totally. If there truly was a God he would have known dinosaurs existed right? Even if we didnt find the bones yet? I mean Im sure we did find some bones back then but prob didnt think much of them.

Also people whole heartedly believed the world was flat until proven otherwise just because thats what they were told growing up. They were livid. Hell there is even a forum in which people STILL believe the world is flat and that every picture from space is fake!

I can go on and on. People believe in what they want to and what they were told their whole lives. I try and believe what my gut tells me, even if its scary and f*cked up. Im not saying you dont, but thats what I do. I think the government covers alot of things up.

[fazzk7]

Yep definitely agree with you there. Many of those ideas are complete contradictions. And I also believe the government covers alot of things up and keeps LOTS of secrets - its just I believe some of the more cynical ideas to be exaggerated sometimes.

[Deeeez Knicks]

I don't believe in God (at least the God that most people believe in), aliens on present day earth, alien crop circle or lizard people.

But I believe they are possible. And they always end up interesting to look into.

So many things we do not know and understand about the universe that anything is possible.

[TrueWarrior]

I don't believe in God (at least the God that most people believe in), aliens on present day earth, alien crop circle or lizard people.

But I believe they are possible. And they always end up interesting to look into.

So many things we do not know and understand about the universe that anything is possible.

Thats merely exactly what I believe in. All that I ask of people is to have an open mind and just think its possible. Sure I lean more towards some "conspiracies" being real but Im still not 100% sold. I just hate when people brush them off as nonsense because that is showing a closed mind. People who come into a thread with an agenda of trying to disprove something at all costs and never even gives them a chance.

People want 100% inconclusive evidence in order to believe in something, yet some of those same people live their lives following Jesus with no proof at all just because they were told that is the right thing to do. Basically what it comes down to is most people wont believe in something until the President says so.

And you're right this stuff is very interesting to look into. I didnt start getting into all this sh*t until the Science and Philosophy thread a few months ago. I honestly didnt care at all and most likely would still be brushing things off hadnt I looked at that thread. Something just clicked in me and Ive been hooked on this junk ever since. I just think they are fun to discuss in the offseason and bring something a little different to the forum, other than more Melo threads or reading fluff pieces on our players that we get every year. I try and get people thinking. I dont know how anybody cant find this stuff cool whether they believe it or not. These same people who call it rubbish will then go and watch Independence Day or War of the Worlds at the movies haha.




It is what it is. My final conclusion on crop circles is that alot of them are indeed man made today. They have become a tourist attraction of sorts. But there are a few of them that cannot be explained with ropes and boards. Some of them are still legit and seem way too complicated and perfect to be done in one night by a few people. They have been around for hundreds of years (even circlemakers admit there have been stories and admit they dont make all crop circles). They didnt just start in the 70s. Also there could be more now because alot of them are warnings for 2012, but who knows if those are manmade or alienmade. I am def open to the idea that they are all man made though, but when I watch the first video I posted in my OP I just cant believe that, while ignoring all of the witnesses and scientific anomalies that happen. But hey maybe people have just become so good at these things.

The thing is why havent there been videotapes of people making these crop circles at night? People dont believe they are aliens because there is no proof but then believe they are all manmade just because some guys said they did them? What makes you believe them? Anybody can come out and say they did this or that. Maybe Im missing something but Id love to watch a video of them making one, and not just any crop circle either. I want a big intricate detailed as sh*t one like the Alien face. You talk about proof well then I want proof myself. What about the ones who were unclaimed also? What people dont want to get in trouble? I thought farmers paid for this stuff to get money?

Again just more questions to consider.

[GONYK]

Hey TW, have a you ever read the book "Gods of Eden"?

I think it is something you would definitely find interesting.

[TrueWarrior]

Hey TW, have a you ever read the book "Gods of Eden"?

I think it is something you would definitely find interesting.

Nah but ive heard the theories before.

Im watching this interview with the author right now. Interesting stuff as usual.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqXqG5WlXJs[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iocg2rzLic&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUJWrgzkSkg&feature=related[/youtube]

Again I dont claim this is 100% true. But there have been documented sightings of lights and discs in the sky for centuries. From Egyptian, Sumerian, Mayan, etc pictures to supposedly Christopher Colombus maybe having even seen a UFO on his way to America.

From the WaterUFO.net site:

Even Christopher Columbus, it appears, saw a UFO. While patrolling the deck of the Santa Maria at about 10:00 PM on October 11, 1492, Columbus thought he saw "a light glimmering at a great distance." He hurriedly summoned Pedro Gutierrez, "a gentleman of the king's bedchamber," who also saw the light. After a short time it vanished, only to reappear several times during the night, each time dancing up and down "in sudden and passig gleams." The light, first seen four hours before land was sighted, was never explained."

Also supposedly there are aliens and buildings on the moon. That Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, among other astronauts, saw them. Again not saying I believe it but look it up. http://www.ufocasebook.com/moon.html

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbONIQfQmDU&feature=related[/youtube]

And to the guy who mentioned the Dulce Base. Im sure you heard of the famous Philip Schneider. This guy claimed himself and his dad to be parts of many top secret government projects. The Philadelphia Experiment, Montauk Project, and Dulce Base to name a few. According to him there was a battle at the Dulce Base with alien grays after workers, while making an underground base for the military, accidentally drilled a hole into the where alien greys were kept. He claimed 67 workers and military personnel were killed, and he was one of only three people to survive. This guy was about to embark on a tour to lecture the world of his stories and all of the sudden died of stroke with no investigation, although upon further review it was thought he was murdered. He had precious alien metals that were then taken, along with all of his information. Supposedly he, along with others related to their secret projects, were constantly shadowed by agents their whole lives. The point is people that it seems that most of who speaks up and tells of these things are killed.

Here read up on Philip more: http://www.ufodigest.com/mystery.html

Bob Lazar? I suggest reading up on him. He claims to have worked at Area 51. Heard of element 115? Lazar says that is used to propel the UFOs, and element 115 has been discovered by the Russians in 2004, some 15 years after Lazar first spoke. He also speaks on reverse engineering, among other things. Supposedly his name has been wiped off of everything he has ever been a part of, even the hospital he claims he was born at. So again you can choose to believe him or not. Im just giving the info.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv0-vSK4bmg&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtSzLsGT5Ys&feature=related[/youtube]

[duetta]

Let's say aliens do exist. Does that not automatically throw most religions out the window?

Yes and no. Many human religions would simply adapt - since they are not based on any premise that would be challenged by the existence of extra-terrestrials.

[nyczlegacy]

Proof that you can't believe all youtube video's

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAf6GtUTCzc[/youtube]

The first modern day crop circles were proven hoaxes. So either aliens copied them or the government spent billions building complex laser beams from space copying or the jokesters just got smarter.

God damn that video makes him look like the GOAT. Holy Sh*T!!!