PG: FJU Needs To Be Shut Down

[K_ick_God]

Listen, I don't think the Celtics are in great position for a title and I don't think what they have is particularly special -- at least not yet -- but they're teed up pretty well. I despise them with every cell in my body. But this is a larger point that isn't about being a fan or even thinking Boston has struck gold.

We may have gotten very lucky with KP -- if so, you can't keep doing half measures and trying to sort of compete and sort of rebuild. Boston doesn't have a talent like KP but they pivoted after the Big 3 and now they have a solid talent base. They're ahead of us, clearly, though not so far that we can't catch and surpass them with a good reset and some luck.

I understand why Phil did Jose and also Afflalo, and I don't blame him for it really. RoLo too, and he can at least be part of the future. But if you don't make the playoffs, it's a failure. When they resigned Melo, it was a good calculated gamble. And Melo is still pretty good. If you whiff on the playoffs in the 2 years after signing Melo, you have to alter course.

No more Afflalos or Joses and no more patching. You pivot to a new roster around KP and let Melo go try to win now. I don't see that as anything but obvious really. The question is what you get for him and where Melo will go -- but that is way more reasonable and possible than a lot of you guys think. Melo has not given up his hope of winning. He just can't say it all the time.

[NYKnicksTAPE]

Listen, I don't think the Celtics are in great position for a title and I don't think what they have is special. Plus I despise them with every cell in my body. But this is a larger point that isn't about being a fan or even thinking Boston has struck gold. We may have gotten very lucky with KP -- if so, you can't keep doing half measures and trying to sort of compete and sort of rebuild.

I understand why Phil did Jose and also Afflalo, and I don't blame him for it really. RoLo too, and he can at least be part of the future. But if you don't make the playoffs, it's a failure. When they resigned Melo, it was a good calculated gamble. And Melo is still pretty good.

If you whiff on the playoffs in the 2 years after signing Melo, you have to alter course. No more Afflalos or Joses and no more patching. You pivot to a new roster around KP and let Melo go try to win now. I don't see that as anything but obvious really. The question is what you get for him and where Melo will go -- but that is way more reasonable and possible than a lot of you guys think. Melo has not given up his hope of winning. He just can't say it all the time.

I want to see what we're able to do in the next 2 free agency periods. If we're not able to attract any noteworthy players then it might be time to go in a new direction.

[god shammgod]

he's still not going to boston because they can't win.

[NYKnicksTAPE]

This team needs a starting PG stimulus package by the trading deadline. If we don't make something happen, 35 wins...

[Sark]

The key for the Celtics is how their pick from Brooklyn turns out this year. If they were land Ingram or Simmons, they'd be in a great position to become a contender. Having a great coach does that for you.

[K_ick_God]

Listen, I don't think the Celtics are in great position for a title and I don't think what they have is special. Plus I despise them with every cell in my body. But this is a larger point that isn't about being a fan or even thinking Boston has struck gold. We may have gotten very lucky with KP -- if so, you can't keep doing half measures and trying to sort of compete and sort of rebuild.

I understand why Phil did Jose and also Afflalo, and I don't blame him for it really. RoLo too, and he can at least be part of the future. But if you don't make the playoffs, it's a failure. When they resigned Melo, it was a good calculated gamble. And Melo is still pretty good.

If you whiff on the playoffs in the 2 years after signing Melo, you have to alter course. No more Afflalos or Joses and no more patching. You pivot to a new roster around KP and let Melo go try to win now. I don't see that as anything but obvious really. The question is what you get for him and where Melo will go -- but that is way more reasonable and possible than a lot of you guys think. Melo has not given up his hope of winning. He just can't say it all the time.

I want to see what we're able to do in the next 2 free agency periods. If we're not able to attract any noteworthy players then it might be time to go in a new direction.

If we get Durant, I take it all back. Stick with Melo. If it's Conley and Batum, who can't shoot, it's not enough. We'll be competitive but that's it. I'd rather go for a younger and more talented roster around KP later rather than a few or several more wins now. Nothing is guaranteed, but a Conley/Batum roster seems like another lame attempt at win-now. It won't work well enough, and may not even work at all. It could flop like our other hastily assembled rosters have.

This is 3 strikes and we're out here. 3 straight years of not really coming close to the playoffs. That's all you need to know.

If you wait 2 more years, Melo may be untradable and then you're stuck with his Max occupying the cap and then KP's Max following, with no break in between. Which means you essentially never see the real cap benefit from KP's rookie deal.

Think of a Conley/Batum type offseason in the context of the 54-win JR Smith 6MOY team. Was that regular season worth being crap now? No. We got hammered in the playoffs by Indy. It was fake and a disaster, leading to 3 years of no playoffs. I'm not saying Conley/Batum would be a bad team, or as bad, but it almost certainly would not win a title or even the East.

It'd be a similar situation. You're going for it now instead of playing for the longer game. And I'm not talking about tanking necessarily -- Boston hasn't tanked last couple year. They're just building with younger talent and cashed in older chips for their future.

[Fat Kat]

Listen, I don't think the Celtics are in great position for a title and I don't think what they have is particularly special -- at least not yet -- but they're teed up pretty well. I despise them with every cell in my body. But this is a larger point that isn't about being a fan or even thinking Boston has struck gold.

We may have gotten very lucky with KP -- if so, you can't keep doing half measures and trying to sort of compete and sort of rebuild. Boston doesn't have a talent like KP but they pivoted after the Big 3 and now they have a solid talent base. They're ahead of us, clearly, though not so far that we can't catch and surpass them with a good reset and some luck.

I understand why Phil did Jose and also Afflalo, and I don't blame him for it really. RoLo too, and he can at least be part of the future. But if you don't make the playoffs, it's a failure. When they resigned Melo, it was a good calculated gamble. And Melo is still pretty good. If you whiff on the playoffs in the 2 years after signing Melo, you have to alter course.

No more Afflalos or Joses and no more patching. You pivot to a new roster around KP and let Melo go try to win now. I don't see that as anything but obvious really. The question is what you get for him and where Melo will go -- but that is way more reasonable and possible than a lot of you guys think. Melo has not given up his hope of winning. He just can't say it all the time.

Who would you have picked up instead of Afflalo?

[Greenie]

The key for the Celtics is how their pick from Brooklyn turns out this year. If they were land Ingram or Simmons, they'd be in a great position to become a contender. Having a great coach does that for you.

If the coach is so great why don't he just coach a player to superstardom?

Marcus Smart WHERE ARE YOU?

[Greenie]

Listen, I don't think the Celtics are in great position for a title and I don't think what they have is particularly special -- at least not yet -- but they're teed up pretty well. I despise them with every cell in my body. But this is a larger point that isn't about being a fan or even thinking Boston has struck gold.

We may have gotten very lucky with KP -- if so, you can't keep doing half measures and trying to sort of compete and sort of rebuild. Boston doesn't have a talent like KP but they pivoted after the Big 3 and now they have a solid talent base. They're ahead of us, clearly, though not so far that we can't catch and surpass them with a good reset and some luck.

I understand why Phil did Jose and also Afflalo, and I don't blame him for it really. RoLo too, and he can at least be part of the future. But if you don't make the playoffs, it's a failure. When they resigned Melo, it was a good calculated gamble. And Melo is still pretty good. If you whiff on the playoffs in the 2 years after signing Melo, you have to alter course.

No more Afflalos or Joses and no more patching. You pivot to a new roster around KP and let Melo go try to win now. I don't see that as anything but obvious really. The question is what you get for him and where Melo will go -- but that is way more reasonable and possible than a lot of you guys think. Melo has not given up his hope of winning. He just can't say it all the time.

Who would you have picked up instead of Afflalo?

Iman for 10/yr

[god shammgod]

you're missing the point that's he in complete control though. if they approach him and he says he wants to stay, it's done. we're not gonna do that anyway. because what in gods name was the whole point of this phil thing if we go in that direction. if the point was to tank for years, you could have had herb williams coach and alan houston be the gm and paid them nothing.

[K_ick_God]

Listen, I don't think the Celtics are in great position for a title and I don't think what they have is particularly special -- at least not yet -- but they're teed up pretty well. I despise them with every cell in my body. But this is a larger point that isn't about being a fan or even thinking Boston has struck gold.

We may have gotten very lucky with KP -- if so, you can't keep doing half measures and trying to sort of compete and sort of rebuild. Boston doesn't have a talent like KP but they pivoted after the Big 3 and now they have a solid talent base. They're ahead of us, clearly, though not so far that we can't catch and surpass them with a good reset and some luck.

I understand why Phil did Jose and also Afflalo, and I don't blame him for it really. RoLo too, and he can at least be part of the future. But if you don't make the playoffs, it's a failure. When they resigned Melo, it was a good calculated gamble. And Melo is still pretty good. If you whiff on the playoffs in the 2 years after signing Melo, you have to alter course.

No more Afflalos or Joses and no more patching. You pivot to a new roster around KP and let Melo go try to win now. I don't see that as anything but obvious really. The question is what you get for him and where Melo will go -- but that is way more reasonable and possible than a lot of you guys think. Melo has not given up his hope of winning. He just can't say it all the time.

Who would you have picked up instead of Afflalo?

Iman for 10/yr

I just said I understand why he did Afflalo and it was fine. It was good. Frankly so was Jose. But if we don't make the playoffs 3 straight years, then none of it worked. Is there any doubt about that? I'm not playing Monday morning quarterback -- I'm playing Tuesday morning stock analyst after a Monday crash.

It was fine to patch it up with smaller, shorter deals like Jose and Afflalo, and see if you can make the playoffs and build that way. Since it seems we're about to get strike 3 called on the playoffs, then that patching didn't work and you have to change course.

There was nobody else available but Jose and Afflalo that were clearly better, so it was all fine and good. But those guys are not good enough to help Melo get to the playoffs. It really is not complicated. Boston is in, we're out, and that doesn't mean we made bad decisions or that Boston is sitting on a great future. It means we should think long and hard about why we're keeping a 31 YO Melo.

[GONYK]

read the wiretap. the celtics want to trade for dwight howard. they're not in a great position.

And the sad thing is, they might not even be successful in getting him

[K_ick_God]

you're missing the point that's he in complete control though. if they approach him and he says he wants to stay, it's done. we're not gonna do that anyway. because what in gods name was the whole point of this phil thing if we go in that direction. if the point was to tank for years, you could have had herb williams coach and alan houston be the gm and paid them nothing.

Yes you're right. I'm saying I don't think he will say that.

[K_ick_God]

What is so great about Boston's position again?

Are we talking about the same team that didn't have enough assets to trade up for Frank Kaminsky?

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

WOW -- you prefer Knicks position to Celtics?

I assume no -- but I'd kill to be sitting in Celtic's position. Who cares if team's didn't want to trade with them -- they have assets, flexibility and already have a very solid roster.

They have a scrappy roster and a bunch of assets that nobody wanted last go around in a market nobody really wants to play in.

They are theoretically in a good place, but have not been successful in actualizing it in any way.

I would rather have 2 stars, cap space, and our pick in a big market than no stars, picks, and cap space in a middle market.

All depends on who you're hoping to get and what the cost is. If we get Durant, all is good. Keep Melo to the end and go for it now. If it's Conley and Batum, then I think you (meaning Phil) needs to be aware that you're going for a good team now -- good but not good enough -- that could seriously jeopardize the chance to build a great team around KP.

Just know what the cost-benefit is. I won't go nuts and stop rooting for a team that will be much improved. But applying calm logic, I think it'll be the kind of move that (barring luck) gives you less chance to reboot around KP in a way that is really successful. It will jeopardize your KP chances. Make it impossible to win with him later? Nope. Because a lot of this is luck and highly unpredictable.

But what Boston did by pivoting away from the Big 3 is give themselves more chances to succeed and build a great team, than if they had held onto the Big 3. More pathways to success.

With Melo's Max merging into KP's Max for cap purposes, I think it's even more urgent for us to consider pivoting than it was for Boston.

BTW has Boston's plan succeeded in some huge way? Absolutely not. I'd be the first one to say their picks are overrated and their roster is not that great. I'd be the first one saying the Knicks are closer to them than people think. And with KP, we have the single best prospect which matters a lot in the NBA. But, applying logic without emotion, they are clearly ahead of us. Right? So their plan is working to some extent. Just not a big success yet. But in the horse race, they're doing pretty well with their pivot early on.

If we don't pivot to a KP plan, there better be a really good reason for it -- either Melo refuses to go or the roster we do build has a very good chance of succeeding and going deep into the playoffs. Otherwise it makes little sense to me. Its another double-down gamble that will probably produce poor long-term results.

[GONYK]

WOW -- you prefer Knicks position to Celtics?

I assume no -- but I'd kill to be sitting in Celtic's position. Who cares if team's didn't want to trade with them -- they have assets, flexibility and already have a very solid roster.

They have a scrappy roster and a bunch of assets that nobody wanted last go around in a market nobody really wants to play in.

They are theoretically in a good place, but have not been successful in actualizing it in any way.

I would rather have 2 stars, cap space, and our pick in a big market than no stars, picks, and cap space in a middle market.

All depends on who you're hoping to get and what the cost is. If we get Durant, all is good. Keep Melo to the end and go for it now. If it's Conley and Batum, then I think you (meaning Phil) needs to be aware that you're going for a good team now -- good but not good enough -- that could seriously jeopardize the chance to build a great team around KP.

Just know what the cost-benefit is. I won't go nuts and stop rooting for a team that will be much improved. But applying calm logic, I think it'll be the kind of move that (barring luck) gives you less chance to reboot around KP in a way that is really successful. It will jeopardize your KP chances. Make it impossible to win with him later? Nope. Because a lot of this is luck and highly unpredictable.

But what Boston did by pivoting away from the Big 3 is give themselves more chances to succeed and build a great team, than if they had held onto the Big 3. More pathways to success.

With Melo's Max merging into KP's Max for cap purposes, I think it's even more urgent for us to consider pivoting than it was for Boston.

BTW has Boston's plan succeeded in some huge way? Absolutely not. I'd be the first one to say their picks are overrated and their roster is not that great. I'd be the first one saying the Knicks are closer to them than people think. And with KP, we have the single best prospect which matters a lot in the NBA. But, applying logic without emotion, they are clearly ahead of us. Right? So their plan is working to some extent. Just not a big success yet. But in the horse race, they're doing pretty well with their pivot early on.

If we don't pivot to a KP plan, there better be a really good reason for it -- either Melo refuses to go or the roster we do build has a very good chance of succeeding and going deep into the playoffs. Otherwise it makes little sense to me. Its another double-down gamble that will probably produce poor long-term results.

You're making it seem like Boston made some bold moves. After we put the nail in their coffin, they offloaded a pair of near-40 yr olds who were on the brink of retirement at premium value. Not much courage in that. It's a no-brainer at that point.

I'm sure we would have "pivoted" away from Amare as well if someone offered us a bunch of 1st rounders for him.

If someone wants to offer us a bunch of lotto picks and youth for Melo, I'm all ears. That offer isn't coming though.

[NYKnicksTAPE]

Listen, I don't think the Celtics are in great position for a title and I don't think what they have is special. Plus I despise them with every cell in my body. But this is a larger point that isn't about being a fan or even thinking Boston has struck gold. We may have gotten very lucky with KP -- if so, you can't keep doing half measures and trying to sort of compete and sort of rebuild.

I understand why Phil did Jose and also Afflalo, and I don't blame him for it really. RoLo too, and he can at least be part of the future. But if you don't make the playoffs, it's a failure. When they resigned Melo, it was a good calculated gamble. And Melo is still pretty good.

If you whiff on the playoffs in the 2 years after signing Melo, you have to alter course. No more Afflalos or Joses and no more patching. You pivot to a new roster around KP and let Melo go try to win now. I don't see that as anything but obvious really. The question is what you get for him and where Melo will go -- but that is way more reasonable and possible than a lot of you guys think. Melo has not given up his hope of winning. He just can't say it all the time.

I want to see what we're able to do in the next 2 free agency periods. If we're not able to attract any noteworthy players then it might be time to go in a new direction.

If we get Durant, I take it all back. Stick with Melo. If it's Conley and Batum, who can't shoot, it's not enough. We'll be competitive but that's it. I'd rather go for a younger and more talented roster around KP later rather than a few or several more wins now. Nothing is guaranteed, but a Conley/Batum roster seems like another lame attempt at win-now. It won't work well enough, and may not even work at all. It could flop like our other hastily assembled rosters have.

This is 3 strikes and we're out here. 3 straight years of not really coming close to the playoffs. That's all you need to know.

If you wait 2 more years, Melo may be untradable and then you're stuck with his Max occupying the cap and then KP's Max following, with no break in between. Which means you essentially never see the real cap benefit from KP's rookie deal.

Think of a Conley/Batum type offseason in the context of the 54-win JR Smith 6MOY team. Was that regular season worth being crap now? No. We got hammered in the playoffs by Indy. It was fake and a disaster, leading to 3 years of no playoffs. I'm not saying Conley/Batum would be a bad team, or as bad, but it almost certainly would not win a title or even the East.

It'd be a similar situation. You're going for it now instead of playing for the longer game. And I'm not talking about tanking necessarily -- Boston hasn't tanked last couple year. They're just building with younger talent and cashed in older chips for their future.

I completely agree with you. We've got 2 possible championship opportunities...either KD or Westbrook have to come here. If we can't get either one of them, then we're just wasting our time.

If KD doesn't come here, then I'd much rather us go after Batum instead of Conley since that still puts us in play for Westbrook the following offseason.

[ToastinKP]

What we need is to start focusing on the future rather than chasing an 8th seed that we won't get. Look to get KP the ball more because he's this team's future and Arron Afflalo post-ups are (hopefully) not.

Exactly, I agree 100%.

[mpharris36]

What we need is to start focusing on the future rather than chasing an 8th seed that we won't get. Look to get KP the ball more because he's this team's future and Arron Afflalo post-ups are (hopefully) not.

Exactly, I agree 100%.

A lot of time we do give it to him and he takes a few dribbles and goes no where and kicks it back out. Some of that is on him to get stronger and get a bit of a post game.

Right now he is a pick and roll/pick and pop player. He really needs someone to create for him and we don't really have a lot of guys outside of Melo that can do that.

[GONYK]

What we need is to start focusing on the future rather than chasing an 8th seed that we won't get. Look to get KP the ball more because he's this team's future and Arron Afflalo post-ups are (hopefully) not.

Exactly, I agree 100%.

A lot of time we do give it to him and he takes a few dribbles and goes no where and kicks it back out. Some of that is on him to get stronger and get a bit of a post game.

Right now he is a pick and roll/pick and pop player. He really needs someone to create for him and we don't really have a lot of guys outside of Melo that can do that.

Yea...I'm unsure what this notion of "get KP the ball more" does outside of putting the kid in situations where he doesn't succeed.

Simply getting him the ball more is not the same as developing him.

[god shammgod]

With the Knicks about to face two teams they need to pass to nab a playoff berth — Boston on Tuesday night at the Garden and Detroit on the road Thursday — Fisher was asked about the urgency of the games.

Fisher said the guidelines of a successful season may not fall on whether the Knicks snare the last playoff seed at No. 8. He also said the team’s success in free agency this coming summer ultimately will be more critical.

http://nypost.com/2016/02/03/derek-fishers-top-2016-goal-for-knicks-and-its-not-playoffs/

the problem with this idea is that free agents go to good teams. the money is the same everywhere for the best players.