The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ)

[cgf]

were they good with Rose as their PG in the playoffs?

Not having looked it up, I'm just gunna guess that they were not but that sample size was minuscule and they were already playing awful, which makes it even less representative of their all-situations #s that were being discussed.

IIRC they were a lot more efficient with Rose during the regular season than they were with Elf...which would lend support to the impact of the supporting-cast variable. But even that wouldn't really give us much insight into what will happen if we add an Elf-upgrade and another shot-creator like Lavine/Sexton...especially if Randle & Barrett improve further as one would hope*.


*moreso referring to Barrett there given that he's just 20 years old and has shown a penchant for putting effort into improving his game over the offseason. Though Julius still has some low-hanging fruit with his skillset that he can polish and some simple experience-based adjustments to make that would improve his game as well...and his work ethic is no joke either, so it's quite possible that we will see those improvements/adjustments from Julius too.

Having Rose didn't impact Randle's scoring efficiency, because Randle generally gave up the ball (to his credit) when teams doubled off Payton during the regular season. Playing with a better point guard - a scoring one at that - only negated his playmaking, without actually helping his scoring efficiency. Perhaps Chris Paul is the one player who could get him easier shots. But what is he then? A spot-up shooter? We all know he's not a good finisher at the rim, and the paint will be clogged so long as he doesn't play the 5.

I'm thinking Randle has a ceiling as a player, no matter which role you play him in, and that he might actually put a ceiling on his team. I'm not saying he's not a keeper. But he definitely shouldn't be viewed as untouchable.

I don't know if it's that binary. With RJ's flashes as a playmaker, I think you could end up with a fluid mix of creative responsibilities with Julius, year-4-RJ & someone like Lavine...especially if they had an enabler like Lonzo at the point.

Don't disagree with your last paragraph at all...thus my suggestion that his fate will be to become the DeMar in a future Zion trade; as the face of the (then) old guard who has to die of us to rise again, even higher than before

I'm just not sure it's as simple as "let Julius run everything" or "turn him into a spot up shooter"...at least not if RJ develops his self-creation enough to realize his playmaking potential, we add a third creator with nice playmaking instincts, and we get an elf-upgrade.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Kawhi pushed the raptors over the Warriors with one injury, and again we don't know just how good RJ and Julius* will end up being with further improvement from them and being put in that better environment...which was my main point.


*or the shot-creator we should add to form a solid but not title winning big 3 with RJ & Julius while we wait for that new-Kawhi-trade we're hoping for...as, if I had to bet on it, Julius would up our DeRozan in a trade for Zion; if this is the path that our FO pursues & it works out our way.

Joel Embiid was fat and out of shape then, he got his ass in shape finally this season. This isn't the same 76ers team that those Raptors beat in 7. Brooklyn would need 2 injuries for us to beat them. Do you really think RJ and Zion is a championship formula?

You ignored my point again...but to answer your question; who knows

Do I think that in 3 (or more) years, a Zion, RJ & Lavine/Sexton/etc. big 3 could win a title with a good supporting cast? Yes, I think that could be a winning formula...but there are a lot of moving pieces that can change whether that actually would end up in a ring for us or not.

Things like: Zion, RJ, & Lavine/Sexton/whoever's further development; the quality of supporting cast we would be able to put around them; the state of the field in the mid-to-late 2020s; whether any of our picks between now & then can have a Rondo like impact as a surprise star on top of our big 3; etc.

I addressed your point of them being in better situations when I brought up their time with Derrick Rose, and how when elf started to lose minutes later in the season, their efficiencies didn't go up, check their splits.

You're adding 2 max guys to that formula, Zion & Lavine. I stated before that 95% of the nba is potentially 2 players away from a championship at all times. The Lakers added Lebron & AD, championship. The Nets added Kyrie & KD who may just win a championship and at the very least are contenders without james harden and without the guys they traded for james harden

Just to add a little something about zion. He has an all-star in Brandon Ingram, the PG that half this board wants in Lonzo Ball a paint protector in Steven Adams and he didn't even make the playoffs. In fact, the pelicans didn't even make the play-in game, it's pathetic.

[Oscirus]

Julius and RJ's limitations explain (partly) why the Knicks aren't one of those stacked teams.

You can't blame everyone around RJ and Randle for being insufficient and not look at them too.

We arent a stacked team because we've spent the past two decades sucking and nobody worth a damn wanted to spend that time on this team. Expecting rj and randle who made huge leaps beyond anything that we couldve expected to all of a sudden be great with good efficiency numbers is beyond absurd. Especially when you take into account that they spent all year without a starting pg and most of the year without a legit starting center. Knicks spend most of the year playing 3/4 on 5 ball and people are expecting them to be efficient.

I don't expect them to be efficient. I never blamed them for being inefficient.

I don't think playing with a competent point guard will generate this dramatic uptick in scoring efficiency for Randle and RJ. Will it help? Sure, absolutely. Will it turn them into efficient players? Probably not.

You mention the center position but the fact that Randle can't or doesn't play the 5 is a problem, since it forces us to play a non-shooting big to protect the rim on the other end.

We wont know what rj is for at least two years if he's still here so it's hard to say what his efficiency will be like at his peak. Randle is hard to say one way or the other since he gets most of the attention Id still say that having help would at the very least get him to the league average if not above it. He's not that far off now on this team.

You're right our inability to go small is problematic especially in the future, but I legit dont know if thats more on randle or Thibs since we never even tried.

[Ghetto Gospel]

We arent a stacked team because we've spent the past two decades sucking and nobody worth a damn wanted to spend that time on this team. Expecting rj and randle who made huge leaps beyond anything that we couldve expected to all of a sudden be great with good efficiency numbers is beyond absurd. Especially when you take into account that they spent all year without a starting pg and most of the year without a legit starting center. Knicks spend most of the year playing 3/4 on 5 ball and people are expecting them to be efficient.

I don't expect them to be efficient. I never blamed them for being inefficient.

I don't think playing with a competent point guard will generate this dramatic uptick in scoring efficiency for Randle and RJ. Will it help? Sure, absolutely. Will it turn them into efficient players? Probably not.

You mention the center position but the fact that Randle can't or doesn't play the 5 is a problem, since it forces us to play a non-shooting big to protect the rim on the other end.

We wont know what rj is for at least two years if he's still here so it's hard to say what his efficiency will be like at his peak. Randle is hard to say one way or the other since he gets most of the attention Id still say that having help would at the very least get him to the league average if not above it. He's not that far off now on this team.

You're right our inability to go small is problematic especially in the future, but I legit dont know if thats more on randle or Thibs since we never even tried.

Randle doesn't offer paint protection like other small ball 5's can. He doesn't even do it now playing as a 4

[Chanel Bomber]

Not having looked it up, I'm just gunna guess that they were not but that sample size was minuscule and they were already playing awful, which makes it even less representative of their all-situations #s that were being discussed.

IIRC they were a lot more efficient with Rose during the regular season than they were with Elf...which would lend support to the impact of the supporting-cast variable. But even that wouldn't really give us much insight into what will happen if we add an Elf-upgrade and another shot-creator like Lavine/Sexton...especially if Randle & Barrett improve further as one would hope*.


*moreso referring to Barrett there given that he's just 20 years old and has shown a penchant for putting effort into improving his game over the offseason. Though Julius still has some low-hanging fruit with his skillset that he can polish and some simple experience-based adjustments to make that would improve his game as well...and his work ethic is no joke either, so it's quite possible that we will see those improvements/adjustments from Julius too.

Having Rose didn't impact Randle's scoring efficiency, because Randle generally gave up the ball (to his credit) when teams doubled off Payton during the regular season. Playing with a better point guard - a scoring one at that - only negated his playmaking, without actually helping his scoring efficiency. Perhaps Chris Paul is the one player who could get him easier shots. But what is he then? A spot-up shooter? We all know he's not a good finisher at the rim, and the paint will be clogged so long as he doesn't play the 5.

I'm thinking Randle has a ceiling as a player, no matter which role you play him in, and that he might actually put a ceiling on his team. I'm not saying he's not a keeper. But he definitely shouldn't be viewed as untouchable.

I don't know if it's that binary. With RJ's flashes as a playmaker, I think you could end up with a fluid mix of creative responsibilities with Julius, year-4-RJ & someone like Lavine...especially if they had an enabler like Lonzo at the point.

Don't disagree with your last paragraph at all...thus my suggestion that his fate will be to become the DeMar in a future Zion trade; as the face of the (then) old guard who has to die of us to rise again, even higher than before

I'm just not sure it's as simple as "let Julius run everything" or "turn him into a spot up shooter"...at least not if RJ develops his self-creation enough to realize his playmaking potential, we add a third creator with nice playmaking instincts, and we get an elf-upgrade.

I mean of course it's not that binary (although you're right for pointing it out).

But you bring in a ball-dominant playmaker to make everybody better (say Chris Paul), then Randle simply doesn't have as many isolation touches for him to find shooters from the post or from the wings. And Randle's playmaking is his best skill. Would playing off the ball more make Julius more efficient? Sure, in all likelihood. But then what is he is, if he needs someone to get him easier shots? Is he John Collins? Is he a small-ball 5 like Blake Griffin?

I'm just confused about what caliber of player Julius is if he doesn't get all those touches that made him an All-NBA player in the first place (although a lot behind it is narrative-driven, my point being that he's not a top 15 player in the NBA). I'm just not sure what his role is to be honest.

Think about the Porzingis situation. KP couldn't score efficiently as the focal point of the Knicks offense, but that's what he got used to in New York. What role is he playing alongside Luka aka the franchise player and offensive hub of the Mavericks now? He's a spot-up shooter, and occasionally a pick-and-pop guy, with the rare inefficient post-up. He's a slightly less inefficient role player. Randle is a better player than KP but my fear is that this is one of those situations. Same happened with Amar'e.

[cgf]

Joel Embiid was fat and out of shape then, he got his ass in shape finally this season. This isn't the same 76ers team that those Raptors beat in 7. Brooklyn would need 2 injuries for us to beat them. Do you really think RJ and Zion is a championship formula?

You ignored my point again...but to answer your question; who knows

Do I think that in 3 (or more) years, a Zion, RJ & Lavine/Sexton/etc. big 3 could win a title with a good supporting cast? Yes, I think that could be a winning formula...but there are a lot of moving pieces that can change whether that actually would end up in a ring for us or not.

Things like: Zion, RJ, & Lavine/Sexton/whoever's further development; the quality of supporting cast we would be able to put around them; the state of the field in the mid-to-late 2020s; whether any of our picks between now & then can have a Rondo like impact as a surprise star on top of our big 3; etc.

I addressed your point of them being in better situations when I brought up their time with Derrick Rose, and how when elf started to lose minutes later in the season, their efficiencies didn't go up, check their splits.

You're adding 2 max guys to that formula, Zion & Lavine. I stated before that 95% of the nba is potentially 2 players away from a championship at all times. The Lakers added Lebron & AD, championship. The Nets added Kyrie & KD who may just win a championship and at the very least are contenders without james harden and without the guys they traded for james harden

Just to add a little something about zion. He has an all-star in Brandon Ingram, the PG that half this board wants in Lonzo Ball a paint protector in Steven Adams and he didn't even make the playoffs. In fact, the pelicans didn't even make the play-in game, it's pathetic.

Instead of Randle going out in a Zion trade, make it Lavine/Sexton going out in a hypothetical Booker trade because Sarver gets cheap after Chris Paul signs a fat extension & then promptly spends the rest of his career injured, if that helps you digest the idea...as neither Lavine/Sexton is any more a superstar than Julius


My point wasn't just about the single factor of replacing elf or the details of how to put our guys in a better environment or how likely any specific plan is to come together...that's on the professionals to figure out...my point was only about how many different variables muddy what we can take from those numbers about how RJ & Julius will do in the future. A list that included, but is not limited to: upgrading on elf, adding another shot-creator*, and further development from Barrett/Randle.

*whether one like Lavine/Sexton or a true superstar like Booker

[Ghetto Gospel]

Having Rose didn't impact Randle's scoring efficiency, because Randle generally gave up the ball (to his credit) when teams doubled off Payton during the regular season. Playing with a better point guard - a scoring one at that - only negated his playmaking, without actually helping his scoring efficiency. Perhaps Chris Paul is the one player who could get him easier shots. But what is he then? A spot-up shooter? We all know he's not a good finisher at the rim, and the paint will be clogged so long as he doesn't play the 5.

I'm thinking Randle has a ceiling as a player, no matter which role you play him in, and that he might actually put a ceiling on his team. I'm not saying he's not a keeper. But he definitely shouldn't be viewed as untouchable.

I don't know if it's that binary. With RJ's flashes as a playmaker, I think you could end up with a fluid mix of creative responsibilities with Julius, year-4-RJ & someone like Lavine...especially if they had an enabler like Lonzo at the point.

Don't disagree with your last paragraph at all...thus my suggestion that his fate will be to become the DeMar in a future Zion trade; as the face of the (then) old guard who has to die of us to rise again, even higher than before

I'm just not sure it's as simple as "let Julius run everything" or "turn him into a spot up shooter"...at least not if RJ develops his self-creation enough to realize his playmaking potential, we add a third creator with nice playmaking instincts, and we get an elf-upgrade.

I mean of course it's not that binary (although you're right for pointing it out).

But you bring in a ball-dominant playmaker to make everybody better (say Chris Paul), then Randle simply doesn't have as many isolation touches for him to find shooters from the post or from the wings. And Randle's playmaking is his best skill. Would playing off the ball more make Julius more efficient? Sure, in all likelihood. But then what is he is, if he needs someone to get him easier shots? Is he John Collins? Is he a small-ball 5 like Blake Griffin?

I'm just confused about what caliber of player Julius is if he doesn't get all those touches that made him an All-NBA player in the first place (although a lot behind it is narrative-driven, my point being that he's not a top 15 player in the NBA). I'm just not sure what his role is to be honest.

Think about the Porzingis situation. KP couldn't score efficiently as the focal point of the Knicks offense, but that's what he got used to in New York. What role is he playing alongside Luka aka the franchise player and offensive hub of the Mavericks now? He's a spot-up shooter, and occasionally a pick-and-pop guy, with the rare inefficient post-up. He's a slightly less inefficient role player. Randle is a better player than KP but my fear is that this is one of those situations. Same happened with Amar'e.

His role in the nba is to put up good stats on a bad team

[cgf]

Having Rose didn't impact Randle's scoring efficiency, because Randle generally gave up the ball (to his credit) when teams doubled off Payton during the regular season. Playing with a better point guard - a scoring one at that - only negated his playmaking, without actually helping his scoring efficiency. Perhaps Chris Paul is the one player who could get him easier shots. But what is he then? A spot-up shooter? We all know he's not a good finisher at the rim, and the paint will be clogged so long as he doesn't play the 5.

I'm thinking Randle has a ceiling as a player, no matter which role you play him in, and that he might actually put a ceiling on his team. I'm not saying he's not a keeper. But he definitely shouldn't be viewed as untouchable.

I don't know if it's that binary. With RJ's flashes as a playmaker, I think you could end up with a fluid mix of creative responsibilities with Julius, year-4-RJ & someone like Lavine...especially if they had an enabler like Lonzo at the point.

Don't disagree with your last paragraph at all...thus my suggestion that his fate will be to become the DeMar in a future Zion trade; as the face of the (then) old guard who has to die of us to rise again, even higher than before

I'm just not sure it's as simple as "let Julius run everything" or "turn him into a spot up shooter"...at least not if RJ develops his self-creation enough to realize his playmaking potential, we add a third creator with nice playmaking instincts, and we get an elf-upgrade.

I mean of course it's not that binary (although you're right for pointing it out).

But you bring in a ball-dominant playmaker to make everybody better (say Chris Paul), then Randle simply doesn't have as many isolation touches for him to find shooters from the post or from the wings. And Randle's playmaking is his best skill. Would playing off the ball more make Julius more efficient? Sure, in all likelihood. But then what is he is, if he needs someone to get him easier shots? Is he John Collins? Is he a small-ball 5 like Blake Griffin?

I'm just confused about what caliber of player Julius is if he doesn't get all those touches that made him an All-NBA player in the first place (although a lot behind it is narrative-driven, my point being that he's not a top 15 player in the NBA). I'm just not sure what his role is to be honest.

Think about the Porzingis situation. KP couldn't score efficiently as the focal point of the Knicks offense, but that's what he got used to in New York. What role is he playing alongside Luka aka the franchise player and offensive hub of the Mavericks now? He's a spot-up shooter, and occasionally a pick-and-pop guy, with the rare inefficient post-up. He's a slightly less inefficient role player. Randle is a better player than KP but my fear is that this is one of those situations. Same happened with Amar'e.

Fair concerns and ones I hope we gain more clarity on next season.

I think the hope would be that rather than adding someone even more ball dominant to get Julius easier looks...we created a nice synergy with someone who had similar gravity to Julius' & also has a developing knack for using that gravity to create for others. So that you could use all three of Julius, RJ & *** to initiate the offense & draw attention away from one another. Taking cues from how teams like Utah, Brooklyn & GSW have used multiple on-ball creators to enhance one another rather than impede each other...like Melo & STAT did.

But you're right that if it just turned into Tatum-Brown style "your turn, my turn" basketball, that would really put a ceiling on how good Julius & a team that he was a key piece on, could be.

[Chanel Bomber]

We arent a stacked team because we've spent the past two decades sucking and nobody worth a damn wanted to spend that time on this team. Expecting rj and randle who made huge leaps beyond anything that we couldve expected to all of a sudden be great with good efficiency numbers is beyond absurd. Especially when you take into account that they spent all year without a starting pg and most of the year without a legit starting center. Knicks spend most of the year playing 3/4 on 5 ball and people are expecting them to be efficient.

I don't expect them to be efficient. I never blamed them for being inefficient.

I don't think playing with a competent point guard will generate this dramatic uptick in scoring efficiency for Randle and RJ. Will it help? Sure, absolutely. Will it turn them into efficient players? Probably not.

You mention the center position but the fact that Randle can't or doesn't play the 5 is a problem, since it forces us to play a non-shooting big to protect the rim on the other end.

We wont know what rj is for at least two years if he's still here so it's hard to say what his efficiency will be like at his peak. Randle is hard to say one way or the other since he gets most of the attention Id still say that having help would at the very least get him to the league average if not above it. He's not that far off now on this team.

You're right our inability to go small is problematic especially in the future, but I legit dont know if thats more on randle or Thibs since we never even tried.

You're right, and I believe Thibs made a massive mistake not going small with Randle at the 5 against Atlanta. The Knicks were getting smoked with his formula, what did he have to lose?

I'm a big believer in RJ and I believe we should be patient with him. I don't expect him to make the leap to stardom before year 4 at the earliest (if he ever does). But one can still recognize that the early results aren't very convincing. He's an inefficient scorer playing a limited 3&D role. He's not being inefficient creating offense like a Lamelo Ball or a Ja Morant. He's being inefficient taking mostly wide-open 3s and attacking the basket. Shot creation isn't part of his skill set (yet). I personally consider him a keeper, but I don't think it's unreasonable for some people to doubt him.

Randle reaching league-average, or hovering just over it, is not good enough. He needs to be better. Although Donovan Mitchell's scoring efficiency in the regular season is nothing to write home about, to be fair. But Mitchell is a way more dynamic player, in addition to being younger, and being an incredible playoff performer.

[Ghetto Gospel]

You ignored my point again...but to answer your question; who knows

Do I think that in 3 (or more) years, a Zion, RJ & Lavine/Sexton/etc. big 3 could win a title with a good supporting cast? Yes, I think that could be a winning formula...but there are a lot of moving pieces that can change whether that actually would end up in a ring for us or not.

Things like: Zion, RJ, & Lavine/Sexton/whoever's further development; the quality of supporting cast we would be able to put around them; the state of the field in the mid-to-late 2020s; whether any of our picks between now & then can have a Rondo like impact as a surprise star on top of our big 3; etc.

I addressed your point of them being in better situations when I brought up their time with Derrick Rose, and how when elf started to lose minutes later in the season, their efficiencies didn't go up, check their splits.

You're adding 2 max guys to that formula, Zion & Lavine. I stated before that 95% of the nba is potentially 2 players away from a championship at all times. The Lakers added Lebron & AD, championship. The Nets added Kyrie & KD who may just win a championship and at the very least are contenders without james harden and without the guys they traded for james harden

Just to add a little something about zion. He has an all-star in Brandon Ingram, the PG that half this board wants in Lonzo Ball a paint protector in Steven Adams and he didn't even make the playoffs. In fact, the pelicans didn't even make the play-in game, it's pathetic.

Instead of Randle going out in a Zion trade, make it Lavine/Sexton going out in a hypothetical Booker trade because Sarver gets cheap after Chris Paul signs a fat extension & then promptly spends the rest of his career injured, if that helps you digest the idea...as neither Lavine/Sexton is any more a superstar than Julius


My point wasn't just about the single factor of replacing elf or the details of how to put our guys in a better environment or how likely any specific plan is to come together...that's on the professionals to figure out...my point was only about how many different variables muddy what we can take from those numbers about how RJ & Julius will do in the future. A list that included, but is not limited to: upgrading on elf, adding another shot-creator*, and further development from Barrett/Randle.

*whether one like Lavine/Sexton or a true superstar like Booker

There's the thing about putting guys in a better environment or having professionals figure it out and set it all up for them. Randle has a spot on the court where he mainly operates and it is on the elbow in the triple threat or post. That leaves him the option of shooting a mid-range shot (which is an inefficient shot for him) or driving to the basket. He has already shown to be extremely inefficient going to his right and so it became easy to gameplan for him as the Hawks showed.

Then there's the issue of how another shot-creator works with Randle. Randle doesn't offer much as an off-ball player. He doesn't set good picks to run pick and roll with, and he isn't a great finisher around the rim in traffic. By putting the ball in another shot-creators hands, you're taking away 50% of what Randle does when he has the ball

[Chanel Bomber]

I addressed your point of them being in better situations when I brought up their time with Derrick Rose, and how when elf started to lose minutes later in the season, their efficiencies didn't go up, check their splits.

You're adding 2 max guys to that formula, Zion & Lavine. I stated before that 95% of the nba is potentially 2 players away from a championship at all times. The Lakers added Lebron & AD, championship. The Nets added Kyrie & KD who may just win a championship and at the very least are contenders without james harden and without the guys they traded for james harden

Just to add a little something about zion. He has an all-star in Brandon Ingram, the PG that half this board wants in Lonzo Ball a paint protector in Steven Adams and he didn't even make the playoffs. In fact, the pelicans didn't even make the play-in game, it's pathetic.

Instead of Randle going out in a Zion trade, make it Lavine/Sexton going out in a hypothetical Booker trade because Sarver gets cheap after Chris Paul signs a fat extension & then promptly spends the rest of his career injured, if that helps you digest the idea...as neither Lavine/Sexton is any more a superstar than Julius


My point wasn't just about the single factor of replacing elf or the details of how to put our guys in a better environment or how likely any specific plan is to come together...that's on the professionals to figure out...my point was only about how many different variables muddy what we can take from those numbers about how RJ & Julius will do in the future. A list that included, but is not limited to: upgrading on elf, adding another shot-creator*, and further development from Barrett/Randle.

*whether one like Lavine/Sexton or a true superstar like Booker

There's the thing about putting guys in a better environment or having professionals figure it out and set it all up for them. Randle has a spot on the court where he mainly operates and it is on the elbow in the triple threat or post. That leaves him the option of shooting a mid-range shot (which is an inefficient shot for him) or driving to the basket. He has already shown to be extremely inefficient going to his right and so it became easy to gameplan for him as the Hawks showed.

Then there's the issue of how another shot-creator works with Randle. Randle doesn't offer much as an off-ball player. He doesn't set good picks to run pick and roll with, and he isn't a great finisher around the rim in traffic. By putting the ball in another shot-creators hands, you're taking away 50% of what Randle does when he has the ball

That's a really good breakdown.

It's just hard to envision Randle becoming an efficient scorer, because the spots he likes to operate from tend to lead to inefficient shots (unless you're Kawhi, Embiid or Jokic), especially since he has a hard time getting to the rim since you have to play a 5 alongside him to protect the rim and he doesn't have great touch around the basket anyway.

And as you said, what is he if you push him to more of an off-ball role, an inevitable development if you're gonna bring in an actual franchise player who also needs the ball?

He's not exactly a dominant pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop player. He's definitely not a rim-runner. He's become a good 3-point shooter, but do you want to pay him max dollars to be primarily a spot-up shooter? I don't know.

The problem is that Randle's success this year came from him turning into a pretty good on-ball player. But pretty good isn't good enough to win championships, and what he can do as an off-ball player is a bit of a question mark.

I'm not saying we should absolutely trade him. But it might not be in our best interest long-term to keep him. The Warriors will want to win next year and they have draft assets, so they seem like a logical trade partner.

I think we're forgetting what happened to KP and Amar'e, two players who became All-Stars on mediocre Knicks teams due to high-usage and who couldn't adjust to a lesser role playing alongside better players. KP and Amar'e are cautionary tales, but I'm afraid the Knicks organization and our fanbase are too desperate to notice the parallels.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Instead of Randle going out in a Zion trade, make it Lavine/Sexton going out in a hypothetical Booker trade because Sarver gets cheap after Chris Paul signs a fat extension & then promptly spends the rest of his career injured, if that helps you digest the idea...as neither Lavine/Sexton is any more a superstar than Julius


My point wasn't just about the single factor of replacing elf or the details of how to put our guys in a better environment or how likely any specific plan is to come together...that's on the professionals to figure out...my point was only about how many different variables muddy what we can take from those numbers about how RJ & Julius will do in the future. A list that included, but is not limited to: upgrading on elf, adding another shot-creator*, and further development from Barrett/Randle.

*whether one like Lavine/Sexton or a true superstar like Booker

There's the thing about putting guys in a better environment or having professionals figure it out and set it all up for them. Randle has a spot on the court where he mainly operates and it is on the elbow in the triple threat or post. That leaves him the option of shooting a mid-range shot (which is an inefficient shot for him) or driving to the basket. He has already shown to be extremely inefficient going to his right and so it became easy to gameplan for him as the Hawks showed.

Then there's the issue of how another shot-creator works with Randle. Randle doesn't offer much as an off-ball player. He doesn't set good picks to run pick and roll with, and he isn't a great finisher around the rim in traffic. By putting the ball in another shot-creators hands, you're taking away 50% of what Randle does when he has the ball

That's a really good breakdown.

It's just hard to envision Randle becoming an efficient scorer, because the spots he likes to operate from tend to lead to inefficient shots, especially since he has a hard time getting to the rim since you have to play a 5 alongside him to protect the rim and he doesn't have great touch around the basket anyway.

And as you said, what is he if you push him to more of an off-ball role, an inevitable development if you're gonna bring in an actual franchise player who also needs the ball?

He's not exactly a dominant pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop player. He's definitely not a rim-runner. He's become a good 3-point shooter, but do you want to pay him max dollars to be primarily a spot-up shooter? I don't know.

The problem is that Randle's success this year came from him turning into a pretty good on-ball player. But pretty good isn't good enough to win championships, and what he can do as an off-ball player is a bit of a question mark.

I'm not saying we should absolutely trade him. But it might not be in our best interest long-term to keep him. The Warriors will want to win next year and they have draft assets, so they seem like a logical trade partner.

I think we're forgetting what happened to KP and Amar'e, two players who became All-Stars on mediocre Knicks teams due to high-usage and who couldn't adjust to a lesser role playing alongside better players. KP and Amar'e are cautionary tales, but I'm afraid the Knicks organization and our fanbase are too desperate to notice the parallels.

I personally think it's fine to shoot the mid-range if you're elite at it. After all, CP3, KD, and Kawhi still shoot that shot prolifically. The issue with Randle is that he isn't the same caliber of shooter that those guys are.

I think it is possible for Randle to play the 5, but I don't think he wants it. A lot of small ball 5's like Draymond and PJ Tucker get by on defense because they want it. They're willing to sacrifice their body on every play, willing to step in front of everyone always ready to take a hit and a charge. When was the last time we've seen anyone on our team take a serious charge or be the first one to dive for a loose ball outside of Taj Gibson? These guys are all bark no bite. They talk about how bad they want it and how hard they work, but they don't show how bad they want it on the court. I don't want to single out Randle for not wanting it, Anthony Davis doesn't want it either and he's the ultimate "small ball" 5 even if he isn't small.

[Chanel Bomber]

There's the thing about putting guys in a better environment or having professionals figure it out and set it all up for them. Randle has a spot on the court where he mainly operates and it is on the elbow in the triple threat or post. That leaves him the option of shooting a mid-range shot (which is an inefficient shot for him) or driving to the basket. He has already shown to be extremely inefficient going to his right and so it became easy to gameplan for him as the Hawks showed.

Then there's the issue of how another shot-creator works with Randle. Randle doesn't offer much as an off-ball player. He doesn't set good picks to run pick and roll with, and he isn't a great finisher around the rim in traffic. By putting the ball in another shot-creators hands, you're taking away 50% of what Randle does when he has the ball

That's a really good breakdown.

It's just hard to envision Randle becoming an efficient scorer, because the spots he likes to operate from tend to lead to inefficient shots, especially since he has a hard time getting to the rim since you have to play a 5 alongside him to protect the rim and he doesn't have great touch around the basket anyway.

And as you said, what is he if you push him to more of an off-ball role, an inevitable development if you're gonna bring in an actual franchise player who also needs the ball?

He's not exactly a dominant pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop player. He's definitely not a rim-runner. He's become a good 3-point shooter, but do you want to pay him max dollars to be primarily a spot-up shooter? I don't know.

The problem is that Randle's success this year came from him turning into a pretty good on-ball player. But pretty good isn't good enough to win championships, and what he can do as an off-ball player is a bit of a question mark.

I'm not saying we should absolutely trade him. But it might not be in our best interest long-term to keep him. The Warriors will want to win next year and they have draft assets, so they seem like a logical trade partner.

I think we're forgetting what happened to KP and Amar'e, two players who became All-Stars on mediocre Knicks teams due to high-usage and who couldn't adjust to a lesser role playing alongside better players. KP and Amar'e are cautionary tales, but I'm afraid the Knicks organization and our fanbase are too desperate to notice the parallels.

I personally think it's fine to shoot the mid-range if you're elite at it. After all, CP3, KD, and Kawhi still shoot that shot prolifically. The issue with Randle is that he isn't the same caliber of shooter that those guys are.

I think it is possible for Randle to play the 5, but I don't think he wants it. A lot of small ball 5's like Draymond and PJ Tucker get by on defense because they want it. They're willing to sacrifice their body on every play, willing to step in front of everyone always ready to take a hit and a charge. When was the last time we've seen anyone on our team take a serious charge or be the first one to dive for a loose ball outside of Taj Gibson? These guys are all bark no bite. They talk about how bad they want it and how hard they work, but they don't show how bad they want it on the court. I don't want to single out Randle for not wanting it, Anthony Davis doesn't want it either and he's the ultimate "small ball" 5 even if he isn't small.

How would you handle the offseason? No filter but using realistic moves.

[cgf]

Instead of Randle going out in a Zion trade, make it Lavine/Sexton going out in a hypothetical Booker trade because Sarver gets cheap after Chris Paul signs a fat extension & then promptly spends the rest of his career injured, if that helps you digest the idea...as neither Lavine/Sexton is any more a superstar than Julius


My point wasn't just about the single factor of replacing elf or the details of how to put our guys in a better environment or how likely any specific plan is to come together...that's on the professionals to figure out...my point was only about how many different variables muddy what we can take from those numbers about how RJ & Julius will do in the future. A list that included, but is not limited to: upgrading on elf, adding another shot-creator*, and further development from Barrett/Randle.

*whether one like Lavine/Sexton or a true superstar like Booker

There's the thing about putting guys in a better environment or having professionals figure it out and set it all up for them. Randle has a spot on the court where he mainly operates and it is on the elbow in the triple threat or post. That leaves him the option of shooting a mid-range shot (which is an inefficient shot for him) or driving to the basket. He has already shown to be extremely inefficient going to his right and so it became easy to gameplan for him as the Hawks showed.

Then there's the issue of how another shot-creator works with Randle. Randle doesn't offer much as an off-ball player. He doesn't set good picks to run pick and roll with, and he isn't a great finisher around the rim in traffic. By putting the ball in another shot-creators hands, you're taking away 50% of what Randle does when he has the ball

That's a really good breakdown.

It's just hard to envision Randle becoming an efficient scorer, because the spots he likes to operate from tend to lead to inefficient shots (unless you're Kawhi, Embiid or Jokic), especially since he has a hard time getting to the rim since you have to play a 5 alongside him to protect the rim and he doesn't have great touch around the basket anyway.

And as you said, what is he if you push him to more of an off-ball role, an inevitable development if you're gonna bring in an actual franchise player who also needs the ball?

He's not exactly a dominant pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop player. He's definitely not a rim-runner. He's become a good 3-point shooter, but do you want to pay him max dollars to be primarily a spot-up shooter? I don't know.

The problem is that Randle's success this year came from him turning into a pretty good on-ball player. But pretty good isn't good enough to win championships, and what he can do as an off-ball player is a bit of a question mark.

I'm not saying we should absolutely trade him. But it might not be in our best interest long-term to keep him. The Warriors will want to win next year and they have draft assets, so they seem like a logical trade partner.

I think we're forgetting what happened to KP and Amar'e, two players who became All-Stars on mediocre Knicks teams due to high-usage and who couldn't adjust to a lesser role playing alongside better players. KP and Amar'e are cautionary tales, but I'm afraid the Knicks organization and our fanbase are too desperate to notice the parallels.

Prepare LB broth

A) there’s still the possibility that something like tightening his handle over the offseason & perfecting some counters when teams force him to go right; opens up more “spots” for him on the floor to really thrive.

but mostly b) he should still be a play-making hub that requires the defense’s attention. Even as an off the ball guy, with Mitch & his man by the rim, moving Julius around & moving the ball through him should cause the defense to shift around its focus…even if the play ends up going back to RJ or Sexton / Lavine / Booker and Julius’s touch turns out to just be a decoy that the defense has to respect.

That sort of stuff can increase everyone’s efficiency just by forcing defenses out of things they do to counter specific players, even if those creators don’t have a really defined role when off the ball. I'm being vague because the specifics will depend a lot on who we acquire and how exactly RJ & Julius develop their games from here.

Which is why my position is ultimately more of a "wait & see what further information tells us" one for now...at least unless there's a crazy 'instantly jumpstart your rebuild' offer out there that would be a good move even if Julius proves he's a legit All-NBA guy & wins a ring as a 2nd option.

[Ghetto Gospel]

That's a really good breakdown.

It's just hard to envision Randle becoming an efficient scorer, because the spots he likes to operate from tend to lead to inefficient shots, especially since he has a hard time getting to the rim since you have to play a 5 alongside him to protect the rim and he doesn't have great touch around the basket anyway.

And as you said, what is he if you push him to more of an off-ball role, an inevitable development if you're gonna bring in an actual franchise player who also needs the ball?

He's not exactly a dominant pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop player. He's definitely not a rim-runner. He's become a good 3-point shooter, but do you want to pay him max dollars to be primarily a spot-up shooter? I don't know.

The problem is that Randle's success this year came from him turning into a pretty good on-ball player. But pretty good isn't good enough to win championships, and what he can do as an off-ball player is a bit of a question mark.

I'm not saying we should absolutely trade him. But it might not be in our best interest long-term to keep him. The Warriors will want to win next year and they have draft assets, so they seem like a logical trade partner.

I think we're forgetting what happened to KP and Amar'e, two players who became All-Stars on mediocre Knicks teams due to high-usage and who couldn't adjust to a lesser role playing alongside better players. KP and Amar'e are cautionary tales, but I'm afraid the Knicks organization and our fanbase are too desperate to notice the parallels.

I personally think it's fine to shoot the mid-range if you're elite at it. After all, CP3, KD, and Kawhi still shoot that shot prolifically. The issue with Randle is that he isn't the same caliber of shooter that those guys are.

I think it is possible for Randle to play the 5, but I don't think he wants it. A lot of small ball 5's like Draymond and PJ Tucker get by on defense because they want it. They're willing to sacrifice their body on every play, willing to step in front of everyone always ready to take a hit and a charge. When was the last time we've seen anyone on our team take a serious charge or be the first one to dive for a loose ball outside of Taj Gibson? These guys are all bark no bite. They talk about how bad they want it and how hard they work, but they don't show how bad they want it on the court. I don't want to single out Randle for not wanting it, Anthony Davis doesn't want it either and he's the ultimate "small ball" 5 even if he isn't small.

How would you handle the offseason? No filter but realistically.

What I want the Knicks to do? I want them to blow it all up and rebuild getting whatever assets we can get. I'm okay with even calling up OKC and asking if they'd be interested in pairing SGA with RJ to form Team Canada over there, if they end up getting a top 5 pick. I would then start a 4 year tank where we stock up on talent and if we end up getting 1 star within those 4 years, I would start surrounding them with applicable vets filling needs as necessary.

Having those young guys on rookie deals is great because ultimately it's "cheap labor". If you look at guys like Luka, Trae, Tatum, Zion, etc. All of those guys on their little 6-7m/year deals are steals. If you can then sign all vets to fill up all the cap space before their deals are due, you're efficiently maximizing your salary cap because you can go then start to go over the cap since you have the bird rights to all those guys on rookie deals. You have a good mix of young guys and vets with a ton of talent to go around.

I don't know if you follow football at all but to me there's only one thing better than having Patrick Mahomes, and it's having Patrick Mahomes on a rookie deal, where he's only eating up $5m of your cap space. It allowed the Chiefs to surround him with heavy money guys like Chris Jones, Travis Kelce, Tyreke Hill, Tyrann Mathieu, etc. Though not a perfect analogy because in football you're not allowed to go over the cap, cheap labor is even more powerful in basketball because you're allowed to go over the salary cap so long as you have their bird rights

[prophet_of_rage]

Haha. Obviously I meant Malik. It's late. I do miss Michael, tho.

I know you did. If you're going to lose games, you got a have at least one colorful character on your team. I, for one, will be forever grateful for the beatdown he put on Melo on his first return to the Garden with OKC. Especially since Greenie was still with us back then. I thoroughly enjoyed watching her eat crow. (I betcha that was a good wake-up call for Melo which - eventually - precipitated the evolution of his game. And, in all seriousness, I was happy to see an old man make the necessary adjustments to become a more team-oriented player. Of course, it never happens when the player is with US.

Beas was kind like Free Candy, except better.

Vernon Maxwell comes to mind. Maybe he was before your time.

Rodman is a great example. I watched a lot of Bulls back then, and he was must watch TV every game. He usually didn't disappoint either with some antic he pulled. That said, he was a great, great player in his own right. The reason it worked is because the Bulls had MJ and Phil to keep Rodman in line.

I actually hung out with Rodman twice. He was the coolest dude. We used to go to this specific club, and he would be there in the middle of the crowd just having fun. As opposed to Scottie and MJ, who were always roped off everywhere they went.

What's cool about Beas is that he's actually made a great career for himself. People can rip on him all they want, but he's still in the league cashing checks. And good for him. It's so fun to have that type of character on your roster.

I don't remember a lot about Vernon, other than he was a pretty good player. And I think a great defender? I might be wrong about that.

Mad Max was a tough defender and a nut.

Sent from my SM-N970W using Tapatalk

[Ghetto Gospel]

There's the thing about putting guys in a better environment or having professionals figure it out and set it all up for them. Randle has a spot on the court where he mainly operates and it is on the elbow in the triple threat or post. That leaves him the option of shooting a mid-range shot (which is an inefficient shot for him) or driving to the basket. He has already shown to be extremely inefficient going to his right and so it became easy to gameplan for him as the Hawks showed.

Then there's the issue of how another shot-creator works with Randle. Randle doesn't offer much as an off-ball player. He doesn't set good picks to run pick and roll with, and he isn't a great finisher around the rim in traffic. By putting the ball in another shot-creators hands, you're taking away 50% of what Randle does when he has the ball

That's a really good breakdown.

It's just hard to envision Randle becoming an efficient scorer, because the spots he likes to operate from tend to lead to inefficient shots (unless you're Kawhi, Embiid or Jokic), especially since he has a hard time getting to the rim since you have to play a 5 alongside him to protect the rim and he doesn't have great touch around the basket anyway.

And as you said, what is he if you push him to more of an off-ball role, an inevitable development if you're gonna bring in an actual franchise player who also needs the ball?

He's not exactly a dominant pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop player. He's definitely not a rim-runner. He's become a good 3-point shooter, but do you want to pay him max dollars to be primarily a spot-up shooter? I don't know.

The problem is that Randle's success this year came from him turning into a pretty good on-ball player. But pretty good isn't good enough to win championships, and what he can do as an off-ball player is a bit of a question mark.

I'm not saying we should absolutely trade him. But it might not be in our best interest long-term to keep him. The Warriors will want to win next year and they have draft assets, so they seem like a logical trade partner.

I think we're forgetting what happened to KP and Amar'e, two players who became All-Stars on mediocre Knicks teams due to high-usage and who couldn't adjust to a lesser role playing alongside better players. KP and Amar'e are cautionary tales, but I'm afraid the Knicks organization and our fanbase are too desperate to notice the parallels.

Prepare LB broth

A) there’s still the possibility that something like tightening his handle over the offseason & perfecting some counters when teams force him to go right; opens up more “spots” for him on the floor to really thrive.

but mostly b) he should still be a play-making hub that requires the defense’s attention. Even as an off the ball guy, with Mitch & his man by the rim, moving Julius around & moving the ball through him should cause the defense to shift around its focus…even if the play ends up going back to RJ or Sexton / Lavine / Booker and Julius’s touch turns out to just be a decoy that the defense has to respect.

That sort of stuff can increase everyone’s efficiency just by forcing defenses out of things they do to counter specific players, even if those creators don’t have a really defined role when off the ball. I'm being vague because the specifics will depend a lot on who we acquire and how exactly RJ & Julius develop their games from here.

Which is why my position is ultimately more of a "wait & see what further information tells us" one for now...at least unless there's a crazy 'instantly jumpstart your rebuild' offer out there that would be a good move even if Julius proves he's a legit All-NBA guy & wins a ring as a 2nd option.

A) it is certainly possible that he tightens his handle into opening up more spots on the floor, but ultimately, I don't think it's realistic for him to operate anywhere but mainly the elbow within the next year or 2. Melo operated mostly out of this spot in the triple threat and post. But if this spot wasn't going for him, he had another spot which was the top of the key. Melo was always functional as a pick and roll ball handler, but this just isn't in Randle's game and I don't think it can be developed in 1 summer

B) I'm not sure he should be a play-making hub, because I don't think he can consistently get his teammates open shots. What worries me most about Randle is his effort when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. I don't see him setting good picks for his teammates or moving around off the ball on cuts or hunting better spots along the 3 pt line to create a better passing lane for whoevers driving to get him the ball easier.

I'd like to be optimistic, but I personally just don't see it. I just can't reasonably expect him to add a whole side to his game that we haven't seen yet

[Chanel Bomber]

I personally think it's fine to shoot the mid-range if you're elite at it. After all, CP3, KD, and Kawhi still shoot that shot prolifically. The issue with Randle is that he isn't the same caliber of shooter that those guys are.

I think it is possible for Randle to play the 5, but I don't think he wants it. A lot of small ball 5's like Draymond and PJ Tucker get by on defense because they want it. They're willing to sacrifice their body on every play, willing to step in front of everyone always ready to take a hit and a charge. When was the last time we've seen anyone on our team take a serious charge or be the first one to dive for a loose ball outside of Taj Gibson? These guys are all bark no bite. They talk about how bad they want it and how hard they work, but they don't show how bad they want it on the court. I don't want to single out Randle for not wanting it, Anthony Davis doesn't want it either and he's the ultimate "small ball" 5 even if he isn't small.

How would you handle the offseason? No filter but realistically.

What I want the Knicks to do? I want them to blow it all up and rebuild getting whatever assets we can get. I'm okay with even calling up OKC and asking if they'd be interested in pairing SGA with RJ to form Team Canada over there, if they end up getting a top 5 pick. I would then start a 4 year tank where we stock up on talent and if we end up getting 1 star within those 4 years, I would start surrounding them with applicable vets filling needs as necessary.

Having those young guys on rookie deals is great because ultimately it's "cheap labor". If you look at guys like Luka, Trae, Tatum, Zion, etc. All of those guys on their little 6-7m/year deals are steals. If you can then sign all vets to fill up all the cap space before their deals are due, you're efficiently maximizing your salary cap because you can go then start to go over the cap since you have the bird rights to all those guys on rookie deals. You have a good mix of young guys and vets with a ton of talent to go around.

I don't know if you follow football at all but to me there's only one thing better than having Patrick Mahomes, and it's having Patrick Mahomes on a rookie deal, where he's only eating up $5m of your cap space. It allowed the Chiefs to surround him with heavy money guys like Chris Jones, Travis Kelce, Tyreke Hill, Tyrann Mathieu, etc. Though not a perfect analogy because in football you're not allowed to go over the cap, cheap labor is even more powerful in basketball because you're allowed to go over the salary cap so long as you have their bird rights

Interesting.

I don't follow football but I've obviously heard the names.

[BugginOut]

That's a really good breakdown.

It's just hard to envision Randle becoming an efficient scorer, because the spots he likes to operate from tend to lead to inefficient shots (unless you're Kawhi, Embiid or Jokic), especially since he has a hard time getting to the rim since you have to play a 5 alongside him to protect the rim and he doesn't have great touch around the basket anyway.

And as you said, what is he if you push him to more of an off-ball role, an inevitable development if you're gonna bring in an actual franchise player who also needs the ball?

He's not exactly a dominant pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop player. He's definitely not a rim-runner. He's become a good 3-point shooter, but do you want to pay him max dollars to be primarily a spot-up shooter? I don't know.

The problem is that Randle's success this year came from him turning into a pretty good on-ball player. But pretty good isn't good enough to win championships, and what he can do as an off-ball player is a bit of a question mark.

I'm not saying we should absolutely trade him. But it might not be in our best interest long-term to keep him. The Warriors will want to win next year and they have draft assets, so they seem like a logical trade partner.

I think we're forgetting what happened to KP and Amar'e, two players who became All-Stars on mediocre Knicks teams due to high-usage and who couldn't adjust to a lesser role playing alongside better players. KP and Amar'e are cautionary tales, but I'm afraid the Knicks organization and our fanbase are too desperate to notice the parallels.

Prepare LB broth

A) there’s still the possibility that something like tightening his handle over the offseason & perfecting some counters when teams force him to go right; opens up more “spots” for him on the floor to really thrive.

but mostly b) he should still be a play-making hub that requires the defense’s attention. Even as an off the ball guy, with Mitch & his man by the rim, moving Julius around & moving the ball through him should cause the defense to shift around its focus…even if the play ends up going back to RJ or Sexton / Lavine / Booker and Julius’s touch turns out to just be a decoy that the defense has to respect.

That sort of stuff can increase everyone’s efficiency just by forcing defenses out of things they do to counter specific players, even if those creators don’t have a really defined role when off the ball. I'm being vague because the specifics will depend a lot on who we acquire and how exactly RJ & Julius develop their games from here.

Which is why my position is ultimately more of a "wait & see what further information tells us" one for now...at least unless there's a crazy 'instantly jumpstart your rebuild' offer out there that would be a good move even if Julius proves he's a legit All-NBA guy & wins a ring as a 2nd option.

A) it is certainly possible that he tightens his handle into opening up more spots on the floor, but ultimately, I don't think it's realistic for him to operate anywhere but mainly the elbow within the next year or 2. Melo operated mostly out of this spot in the triple threat and post. But if this spot wasn't going for him, he had another spot which was the top of the key. Melo was always functional as a pick and roll ball handler, but this just isn't in Randle's game and I don't think it can be developed in 1 summer

B) I'm not sure he should be a play-making hub, because I don't think he can consistently get his teammates open shots. What worries me most about Randle is his effort when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. I don't see him setting good picks for his teammates or moving around off the ball on cuts or hunting better spots along the 3 pt line to create a better passing lane for whoevers driving to get him the ball easier.

I'd like to be optimistic, but I personally just don't see it. I just can't reasonably expect him to add a whole side to his game that we haven't seen yet

Where is this notion that Randle doesn’t set good screens come from? Him setting screens was the only reason Bullock was open half the time. He even set hard screens to get Rose open without the ball (the type of screens where it should be called and offensive foul half the time).

Randle is a good off ball player. He’s a great defender, rebounder and leader. He sucked in the playoffs, but you can’t slander the man for his effort when he lead the lead in minutes by a mile and gave consistent effort on both ends nearly every night.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Prepare LB broth

A) there’s still the possibility that something like tightening his handle over the offseason & perfecting some counters when teams force him to go right; opens up more “spots” for him on the floor to really thrive.

but mostly b) he should still be a play-making hub that requires the defense’s attention. Even as an off the ball guy, with Mitch & his man by the rim, moving Julius around & moving the ball through him should cause the defense to shift around its focus…even if the play ends up going back to RJ or Sexton / Lavine / Booker and Julius’s touch turns out to just be a decoy that the defense has to respect.

That sort of stuff can increase everyone’s efficiency just by forcing defenses out of things they do to counter specific players, even if those creators don’t have a really defined role when off the ball. I'm being vague because the specifics will depend a lot on who we acquire and how exactly RJ & Julius develop their games from here.

Which is why my position is ultimately more of a "wait & see what further information tells us" one for now...at least unless there's a crazy 'instantly jumpstart your rebuild' offer out there that would be a good move even if Julius proves he's a legit All-NBA guy & wins a ring as a 2nd option.

A) it is certainly possible that he tightens his handle into opening up more spots on the floor, but ultimately, I don't think it's realistic for him to operate anywhere but mainly the elbow within the next year or 2. Melo operated mostly out of this spot in the triple threat and post. But if this spot wasn't going for him, he had another spot which was the top of the key. Melo was always functional as a pick and roll ball handler, but this just isn't in Randle's game and I don't think it can be developed in 1 summer

B) I'm not sure he should be a play-making hub, because I don't think he can consistently get his teammates open shots. What worries me most about Randle is his effort when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. I don't see him setting good picks for his teammates or moving around off the ball on cuts or hunting better spots along the 3 pt line to create a better passing lane for whoevers driving to get him the ball easier.

I'd like to be optimistic, but I personally just don't see it. I just can't reasonably expect him to add a whole side to his game that we haven't seen yet

Where is this notion that Randle doesn’t set good screens come from? Him setting screens was the only reason Bullock was open half the time. He even set hard screens to get Rose open without the ball (the type of screens where it should be called and offensive foul half the time).

Randle is a good off ball player. He’s a great defender, rebounder and leader. He sucked in the playoffs, but you can’t slander the man for his effort when he lead the lead in minutes by a mile and gave consistent effort on both ends nearly every night.

I don't doubt that he sets good screens from time to time, but I find that most of the time he's just setting slip screens.

I think he's a good perimeter defender when he wants to be, but I think the effort can be inconsistent. I don't think he's a good help defender. I very rarely see him being the first guy on the floor when there's a loose ball. I very rarely see him sacrificing his body to take charges. Maybe he can be if he had less of an offensive load I just haven't seen this this thirst for defense that I see on offense.