Offseason Thread Continued - Atlanta Got Crabbes and We're Panicking

[King of Canada]

Two words: Rick Carlisle (not saying he's a bad coach but he and DSJ didn't fit). DSJ is not a system PG. Luca made DSJ irrelevant - Carlisle didn't find a way to make it work and the perception league wide became DSJ was the problem. Obviously the problem couldn't have been Carlisle... Right???

I was going to answer “because he’s a Knick.” We took heat for not drafting him, up until the day we acquired him, at which point he became no longer an asset.

But your answer is the less cynical, more accurate one, lol.

I don’t rate DSJ highly, but I still think he has value around the league to the right team. I think he’d be interesting alongside Jrue if he ended up going to the Pelicans in an AD trade.

The league has seen many players with very good learning ability. Where are James White, Fred Jones, Stromile Swift or Darius Miles when players are inducted into the HOF every year?

DSJ is a turnover waiting to happen, doesn't provide any value off the ball, is a bad decision maker who plays lousy defense and cannot shoot. There's literally nothing that warrants a starting job in the NBA.

Yeah, it would take being a starter or 6th man on a playoff team with consistent quality play to make him have value. As it is now he’s an after thought to me as a Knick. If we stay young I hope he shows more.

[3toheadmelo]

Why do you guys think DSJ value is so low? I know he is a bad shooter and can make alot of turnovers but i still think he has alot of promise and we didnt even get to see him healthy last season.

Cause he’s a Knick. At least the Knicks are high on him which is good. They tried to trade for him all season long. They’re even sending assistants to work with him in the summer also. Expecting a breakout season next year.

[spree2kawhi]

Right now, I have Kawhi's achievements in the playoffs as much more impressive than KD's achievements. Don't really care that KD hit a game clinching 3 against Lebron in the finals, if Lebron was carrying his team, while KD was sharing his burden.

I guess Kyrie was on vacation or took a break to play baseball.

Curry
Lebron
Green
Klay

vs

KD
Love
Kyrie

If you switch the teams around, I think there's a clear disparity here in terms of talent. Don't know if you disagree, but I like my chances if we create a forum poll. KD basically took over for a brick-laying, choking Harrison Barnes on a championship winning roster. KD relying on a 73 games winning, 2016 championship winning Warriors core and then hitting a jump shot means ****.

What about KD, Wade, Bosh? That team wins not one, not two, not three, not four...

But I don't think that's how it works. If you only change the players themselves, which one works better:

Curry
Klay
Iggy
James
Green

Curry
Klay
Iggy
KD
Green

James
Klay
Iggy
KD
Green


Imo KD is the superior player on offense and by now also on defense. I don't really think you (not you personally) can twist that story any longer. KD didn't reach the finals as often, but he played in the West and was a fixture to play in the western finals. He is that good. I also don't see in which aspect of the game Kawhi is worse than James anymore.

There's a reason why LeBron doesn't have 5 or even six rings. It's because he never shot the ball as well as more successful players in history, so he didn't come through when it mattered against Dirk, Steph, Kawhi, KD or even Pierce+KG when it mattered. That's a limitation. You can't just ignore it, but people do.

[Anotha Knicks fan]

Question to ponder... figured I post it here, rather than make a new thread.

As far as Kawhi goes, do you think he has the possibility of passing Lebron as the greatest player in our era? Championship wise, let's say Kawhi goes to another team after winning this season's, and earns himself a couple of chips (caveat on a Lebron-less team)... would he be on par?

I get there's personal accolades to account for, but how would he stack up championship wise? Would he look superior? How would you place him?

[F N 11]

Why do you guys think DSJ value is so low? I know he is a bad shooter and can make alot of turnovers but i still think he has alot of promise and we didnt even get to see him healthy last season.

Cause he’s a Knick. At least the Knicks are high on him which is good. They tried to trade for him all season long. They’re even sending assistants to work with him in the summer also. Expecting a breakout season next year.

Where did you read this? That’s good news. Giving up on young players is dumb af. ESP when they Average 15 ppg easily during their very young age.

[spree2kawhi]

Question to ponder... figured I post it here, rather than make a new thread.

As far as Kawhi goes, do you think he has the possibility of passing Lebron as the greatest player in our era? Championship wise, let's say Kawhi goes to another team after winning this season's, and earns himself a couple of chips (caveat on a Lebron-less team)... would he be on par?

I get there's personal accolades to account for, but how would he stack up championship wise? Would he look superior? How would you place him?

Since LeBron didn't exactly set a record for winning many championships, I don't see why Kawhi shouldn't be considered better if he managed to win another one. I repeat myself: LeBron's always had clear limitations especially shooting the ball, allowing various teams and their defenses to collapse and ultimately win playoff series against him. It is exactly why other great players came through more often than him and why he lost over and over again despite usually playing with at least two all stars in their prime. Lebron's teams were never unbeatable, nor did they have great chemistry. How does he call himself GOAT?

We've seen more complete players this year.

[3toheadmelo]

Why do you guys think DSJ value is so low? I know he is a bad shooter and can make alot of turnovers but i still think he has alot of promise and we didnt even get to see him healthy last season.

Cause he’s a Knick. At least the Knicks are high on him which is good. They tried to trade for him all season long. They’re even sending assistants to work with him in the summer also. Expecting a breakout season next year.

Where did you read this? That’s good news. Giving up on young players is dumb af. ESP when they Average 15 ppg easily during their very young age.

What you referring to? About the Knicks wanting him all season long or DSJ working with assistant coaches?

And yeah. Most players who averaged 15 ppg and 5 assists their rookie year ended up having great careers.

[newyorker4ever]

Interesting read from a Pelicans beat writer suggests (my takeaway) that an AD trade comes down to 4 teams...

1. Lakers. While the team likes Ingram (is he truly healthy?) there is pressure from within the organization to NOT trade Davis to LA. (no secret there)

2. Clippers. They're not putting SGA on the table for talks... since that's not happening-Pelicans not taking them seriously.

3. Celtics. Pelicans want Tatum! This is the trade they make if Boston puts him on the table. To me, Boston would be silly to do so but with the report that they could've had Kawhi if they'd parted with Brown surfacing... Do they start 2nd guessing themselves? IDK

4. Knicks. Apparently others don't view our youngsters as high as some of us do... SURPRISE!!!! lol. In any case the writer suggests MR as a starting point but also suggests Robinson's upside is limited because of his inability to shoot (somewhat has a point - time will tell). And a serious offer would include Frank, Knox and DSJ and while the writer didn't mention picks... you'd have to assume that this year's 1st (Barrett) would HAVE TO BE included.

As many here have stated/suggested... I think (know) we have the assets to do a trade for AD but at what cost??? And will the Celtics top us by including Tatum???

21 days...

I don't think there should be any doubt that the Celtics can offer the best package because they easily have the best young players and while we top everyone in what we can give in draft picks the Celtics still have plenty of 1st round picks that they can add to the best package of young players.

We all love Mitch and what he does around the basket and his shot blocking that goes all the way out to the 3 point line but for me it's an easy decision to add Mitch in any deal that could bring A.Davis back to us.

So i agree with this report that if the Celtics want AD and will add J.Tatum in the deal with other assets that they'll get AD.

[spree2kawhi]

Interesting read from a Pelicans beat writer suggests (my takeaway) that an AD trade comes down to 4 teams...

1. Lakers. While the team likes Ingram (is he truly healthy?) there is pressure from within the organization to NOT trade Davis to LA. (no secret there)

2. Clippers. They're not putting SGA on the table for talks... since that's not happening-Pelicans not taking them seriously.

3. Celtics. Pelicans want Tatum! This is the trade they make if Boston puts him on the table. To me, Boston would be silly to do so but with the report that they could've had Kawhi if they'd parted with Brown surfacing... Do they start 2nd guessing themselves? IDK

4. Knicks. Apparently others don't view our youngsters as high as some of us do... SURPRISE!!!! lol. In any case the writer suggests MR as a starting point but also suggests Robinson's upside is limited because of his inability to shoot (somewhat has a point - time will tell). And a serious offer would include Frank, Knox and DSJ and while the writer didn't mention picks... you'd have to assume that this year's 1st (Barrett) would HAVE TO BE included.

As many here have stated/suggested... I think (know) we have the assets to do a trade for AD but at what cost??? And will the Celtics top us by including Tatum???

21 days...

I don't think there should be any doubt that the Celtics can offer the best package because they easily have the best young players and while we top everyone in what we can give in draft picks the Celtics still have plenty of 1st round picks that they can add to the best package of young players.

We all love Mitch and what he does around the basket and his shot blocking that goes all the way out to the 3 point line but for me it's an easy decision to add Mitch in any deal that could bring A.Davis back to us.

So i agree with this report that if the Celtics want AD and will add J.Tatum in the deal with other assets that they'll get AD.

And just like they should trade a lot of their pieces, so should the Knicks. None of our players will ever be that good.

[newyorker4ever]

Why would the Celtics trade for AD after his camp put it out there he won’t be resigning with them?

The only one i remember saying he wouldn't re-sign with the Celtics was his father and don't remember AD actually confirming that. Not saying he would because i don't know but if the Celtics did get him and were able to keep Kyrie or keep Tatum or get another legit star to go there in free agency or another trade (which i never count D.Ainge out of doing) then i wouldn't count them out from being able to re-sign him. They'd also still have some good players left to play there next year because they're loaded with good talent right now and they wouldn't have to give up as much as we would if they put Tatum in the deal.

[thebuzzardman]

Question to ponder... figured I post it here, rather than make a new thread.

As far as Kawhi goes, do you think he has the possibility of passing Lebron as the greatest player in our era? Championship wise, let's say Kawhi goes to another team after winning this season's, and earns himself a couple of chips (caveat on a Lebron-less team)... would he be on par?

I get there's personal accolades to account for, but how would he stack up championship wise? Would he look superior? How would you place him?

Since LeBron didn't exactly set a record for winning many championships, I don't see why Kawhi shouldn't be considered better if he managed to win another one. I repeat myself: LeBron's always had clear limitations especially shooting the ball, allowing various teams and their defenses to collapse and ultimately win playoff series against him. It is exactly why other great players came through more often than him and why he lost over and over again despite usually playing with at least two all stars in their prime. Lebron's teams were never unbeatable, nor did they have great chemistry. How does he call himself GOAT?

We've seen more complete players this year.

While "I" think Kawhi could get in the conversation and deserve it, I bet by a lot of fans, especially more casual ones, and the media that panders to them, Kawhi wouldn't get ranked as high as he should, or definitely lower than he deserves, as his offensive game is kind of "low flash" and, honestly, for all the kudos we'll give to defense, a LOT of fans just don't value it.

Where does Duncan land on all time lists?

[thebuzzardman]

Why do you guys think DSJ value is so low? I know he is a bad shooter and can make alot of turnovers but i still think he has alot of promise and we didnt even get to see him healthy last season.

Cause he’s a Knick. At least the Knicks are high on him which is good. They tried to trade for him all season long. They’re even sending assistants to work with him in the summer also. Expecting a breakout season next year.

DSJr. He's no Spencer DinWiddie.

[newyorker4ever]

Why do you guys think DSJ value is so low? I know he is a bad shooter and can make alot of turnovers but i still think he has alot of promise and we didnt even get to see him healthy last season.

It's not only his shooting, and that shooting is from everywhere bad even the free throw line, but it's also his defense with his alligator arms. He's basically just a really athletic scoring PG and i just don't think that's what a great team will win with. You kinda need your starting PG in the end of games but if your starting PG can't be counted on to hit his free throws then it's kinda hard to leave him in close games in the end. I don't hate the kid and think he definitely has some good things that can help a team but as our starting PG i think we can do much better.

[newyorker4ever]

Read on Twitter

Even this article brings up his athleticism which i don't think anyone would argue against him being athletic but i don't care too much about my PG being very athletic. I mean of course i want my PG to be athletic but when that's the first thing people always bring up about your starting PG i just don't see that as a great thing.

[spree2kawhi]

Question to ponder... figured I post it here, rather than make a new thread.

As far as Kawhi goes, do you think he has the possibility of passing Lebron as the greatest player in our era? Championship wise, let's say Kawhi goes to another team after winning this season's, and earns himself a couple of chips (caveat on a Lebron-less team)... would he be on par?

I get there's personal accolades to account for, but how would he stack up championship wise? Would he look superior? How would you place him?

Since LeBron didn't exactly set a record for winning many championships, I don't see why Kawhi shouldn't be considered better if he managed to win another one. I repeat myself: LeBron's always had clear limitations especially shooting the ball, allowing various teams and their defenses to collapse and ultimately win playoff series against him. It is exactly why other great players came through more often than him and why he lost over and over again despite usually playing with at least two all stars in their prime. Lebron's teams were never unbeatable, nor did they have great chemistry. How does he call himself GOAT?

We've seen more complete players this year.

While "I" think Kawhi could get in the conversation and deserve it, I betby a lot of fans, especially more casual ones, and the media that panders to them, Kawhi wouldn't get ranked as high as he should, or definitely lower than he deserves, as his offensive game is kind of "low flash" and, honestly, for all the kudos we'll give to defense, a LOT of fans just don't value it.

Where does Duncan land on all time lists?

Exactly. I don't see why his 5 championships are supposedly off any less value than LeBron's. To me, Duncan was the better leader, better defender, more reliable go to scorer and ultimately had a more successful career. Same with Kobe basically. But this will only start a debate with people who love to point at his 8 Finals appearances (despite weak competition) while ignoring how the holes in his game (like his shooting) enabled other teams to beat him. People will point at Shaq for Kobe's championships. Why doesn't anybody point at Wade who had won before? Who do they point at with Duncan? Speaking of Shaq, what about him? He's got 4...

[thebuzzardman]

Since LeBron didn't exactly set a record for winning many championships, I don't see why Kawhi shouldn't be considered better if he managed to win another one. I repeat myself: LeBron's always had clear limitations especially shooting the ball, allowing various teams and their defenses to collapse and ultimately win playoff series against him. It is exactly why other great players came through more often than him and why he lost over and over again despite usually playing with at least two all stars in their prime. Lebron's teams were never unbeatable, nor did they have great chemistry. How does he call himself GOAT?

We've seen more complete players this year.

While "I" think Kawhi could get in the conversation and deserve it, I betby a lot of fans, especially more casual ones, and the media that panders to them, Kawhi wouldn't get ranked as high as he should, or definitely lower than he deserves, as his offensive game is kind of "low flash" and, honestly, for all the kudos we'll give to defense, a LOT of fans just don't value it.

Where does Duncan land on all time lists?

Exactly. I don't see why his 5 championships are supposedly off any less value than LeBron's. To me, Duncan was the better leader, better defender, more reliable go to scorer and ultimately had a more successful career. Same with Kobe basically. But this will only start a debate with people who love to point at his 8 Finals appearances (despite weak competition) while ignoring how the holes in his game (like his shooting) enabled other teams to beat him. People will point at Shaq for Kobe's championships. Why doesn't anybody point at Wade who had won before? Who do they point at with Duncan? Speaking of Shaq, what about him? He's got 4...

Those debates can be fun and interesting for a few moments, but to me, they get old quick as they get agenda driven etc in a hurry.

While it's fun to try and decide who the top 10 all time are, or what order, sometimes it's just easier to say "they are all all-time greats"

[newyorker4ever]

Why do you guys think DSJ value is so low? I know he is a bad shooter and can make alot of turnovers but i still think he has alot of promise and we didnt even get to see him healthy last season.

Cause he’s a Knick. At least the Knicks are high on him which is good. They tried to trade for him all season long. They’re even sending assistants to work with him in the summer also. Expecting a breakout season next year.

Every player gets people to work with them in the offseason on whatever parts of their games need work though and didn't we trade for DSJ in like January or sometime around then? That's not a whole season of trying to trade for him.

[Thugger HBC]

Read on Twitter

Even this article brings up his athleticism which i don't think anyone would argue against him being athletic but i don't care too much about my PG being very athletic. I mean of course i want my PG to be athletic but when that's the first thing people always bring up about your starting PG i just don't see that as a great thing.

It's his greatest strength right now, so naturally that would be the first thing mentioned. in time we'd hope his complete game will evolve, but for right now a lot of what he's is doing on the court involves his best attribute.

I don't see how anyone can fault him for that.

[G_K_F]

Why do you guys think DSJ value is so low? I know he is a bad shooter and can make alot of turnovers but i still think he has alot of promise and we didnt even get to see him healthy last season.

Cause he’s a Knick. At least the Knicks are high on him which is good. They tried to trade for him all season long. They’re even sending assistants to work with him in the summer also. Expecting a breakout season next year.

DSJr. He's no Spencer DinWiddie.

It's weird you're a big supporter of a guy who is a Steve Francis clone.

He's a poor shooter and a poor defender with a poor work ethic and an entitled attitude. Basically everything you don't want in a young player. The only thing he has going for him is that he's young and super athletic. Literally the only positive about him.

This has nothing to do with overrating other players and underrating our own guys or vice versa. People aren't blind. They can see what DSJr is. The people that think he has some super high ceiling and is a can't miss prospect are probably also the same people that raved about many other low basketball IQ guards that can jump out of the gym. Unfortunately, while flashy, those guys don't win you many games.

[KnixinSix]

Interesting read from a Pelicans beat writer suggests (my takeaway) that an AD trade comes down to 4 teams...

1. Lakers. While the team likes Ingram (is he truly healthy?) there is pressure from within the organization to NOT trade Davis to LA. (no secret there)

2. Clippers. They're not putting SGA on the table for talks... since that's not happening-Pelicans not taking them seriously.

3. Celtics. Pelicans want Tatum! This is the trade they make if Boston puts him on the table. To me, Boston would be silly to do so but with the report that they could've had Kawhi if they'd parted with Brown surfacing... Do they start 2nd guessing themselves? IDK

4. Knicks. Apparently others don't view our youngsters as high as some of us do... SURPRISE!!!! lol. In any case the writer suggests MR as a starting point but also suggests Robinson's upside is limited because of his inability to shoot (somewhat has a point - time will tell). And a serious offer would include Frank, Knox and DSJ and while the writer didn't mention picks... you'd have to assume that this year's 1st (Barrett) would HAVE TO BE included.

As many here have stated/suggested... I think (know) we have the assets to do a trade for AD but at what cost??? And will the Celtics top us by including Tatum???

21 days...

I don't think there should be any doubt that the Celtics can offer the best package because they easily have the best young players and while we top everyone in what we can give in draft picks the Celtics still have plenty of 1st round picks that they can add to the best package of young players.

We all love Mitch and what he does around the basket and his shot blocking that goes all the way out to the 3 point line but for me it's an easy decision to add Mitch in any deal that could bring A.Davis back to us.

So i agree with this report that if the Celtics want AD and will add J.Tatum in the deal with other assets that they'll get AD.

What is Griffin s vision? Does he want maximum cost and team controlled guys because not many want to stay in NOLA and/or a young guy to grow up with Zion?

If so then Mitch and the #3 and the Dallas unprotected would carry great value. All are young potential building blocks that are/would be team controlled for a long time.

If not as a big concern then young guys who are a little more proven but may only have a few years left of cost/team control may be of higher value Ingram/Kuzma/Tatum/Brown etc.

I have a feeling in the end he'll want the guys who stay longer. Mitch ,Barrett .