OT: Democratic Primary Thread

[Clyde_Style]

If you are for Bernie that is cool but when Joe wins the nomination your asses better be at the polls for Uncle Joe or you are pretty much the equivalent of a Trump supporter.

This will convince fewer people than it did four years ago

There are lots of Republicans who have left the party since 2016 and some more will be on the ledge and willing to vote Dem. I have no numbers, but in the alternate universe of Twitter the defectors are quite vocal and they are numerous. Twitter is maybe 10% of the population, but there are indicators there nevertheless

[Pointgod]

If you are for Bernie that is cool but when Joe wins the nomination your asses better be at the polls for Uncle Joe or you are pretty much the equivalent of a Trump supporter.

This will convince fewer people than it did four years ago

What more do you want here? How about this? Joe Biden will be running a more Progressive platform than any candidate in the past decade, probably two decades. I know it sucks that it’s not Bernie but you can either get some of what you want with Biden or none of what you want with Trump while the country burns around you. I think the decision is pretty easy.

[Clyde_Style]

If you are for Bernie that is cool but when Joe wins the nomination your asses better be at the polls for Uncle Joe or you are pretty much the equivalent of a Trump supporter.

This will convince fewer people than it did four years ago

What more do you want here? How about this? Joe Biden will be running a more Progressive platform than any candidate in the past decade, probably two decades. I know it sucks that it’s not Bernie but you can either get some of what you want with Biden or none of what you want with Trump while the country burns around you. I think the decision is pretty easy.

Let's play nice guys.

Anyway, yes I think it is important that Biden will be able to support more progressive policies than he's been credited with being capable of backing because the times call for it.

For example, he's actively talking about student loan relief right now. That may not be universal free college some want, but that was a long shot this election cycle anyway. Just getting a bill passed that affords debt relief for student loans would automatically change the lives of tens of millions of America. That is actual change. One step at a time can take you in the right direction.

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

Things that make you go "hhhmmmmmm". I wonder what Carter, Bill Clinton and Obama have in common? And which distinguishes them from every other Dem pres candidate since LBJ in 1964?

You made me go look at the list and the ones who failed are

Humphrey
McGovern
Mondale
Dukakis
Gore
Kerry

In contrast with the other three, they all lack a degree of relatability and the common touch that allows them to connect to a broader spectrum of people. Humphrey was a warm guy, but he had some melt downs (read Hunter Thompson) and that made him seem too weak for voters. And Hubert was actually too nice to play dirty and he actually didn't take the offensive against his opponents and that likely ended up costing him.

Of those three, Clinton and Obama had a level of self-confidence bordering on swagger that I can't attribute to Carter. Jimmy did have a form of self-confidence as a self-made man, but his particular character was more humble and self-effacing.

They won.

[Pointgod]

This will convince fewer people than it did four years ago

What more do you want here? How about this? Joe Biden will be running a more Progressive platform than any candidate in the past decade, probably two decades. I know it sucks that it’s not Bernie but you can either get some of what you want with Biden or none of what you want with Trump while the country burns around you. I think the decision is pretty easy.

Let's play nice guys.

Anyway, yes I think it is important that Biden will be able to support more progressive policies than he's been credited with being capable of backing because the times call for it.

For example, he's actively talking about student loan relief right now. That may not be universal free college some want, but that was a long shot this election cycle anyway. Just getting a bill passed that affords debt relief for student loans would automatically change the lives of tens of millions of America. That is actual change. One step at a time can take you in the right direction.

I didn’t write what I wrote with a hint of malice or aggression. It’s simply the cold hard facts. If you’re a Progressive noting voting for Biden gets you none of what you want and it actively sets you two steps back. What did the Bernie supporters that sat out or voted third party achieve in 2016? How has having Trump as President moved any of their agenda forward?

[Kampuchea]

What more do you want here? How about this? Joe Biden will be running a more Progressive platform than any candidate in the past decade, probably two decades. I know it sucks that it’s not Bernie but you can either get some of what you want with Biden or none of what you want with Trump while the country burns around you. I think the decision is pretty easy.

Let's play nice guys.

Anyway, yes I think it is important that Biden will be able to support more progressive policies than he's been credited with being capable of backing because the times call for it.

For example, he's actively talking about student loan relief right now. That may not be universal free college some want, but that was a long shot this election cycle anyway. Just getting a bill passed that affords debt relief for student loans would automatically change the lives of tens of millions of America. That is actual change. One step at a time can take you in the right direction.

I didn’t write what I wrote with a hint of malice or aggression. It’s simply the cold hard facts. If you’re a Progressive noting voting for Biden gets you none of what you want and it actively sets you two steps back. What did the Bernie supporters that sat out or voted third party achieve in 2016? How has having Trump as President moved any of their agenda forward?

Garbage. Biden will be such a failure that he will set back the Dems for a couple decades.

Trump out after 4 more years, progressives can take over from there.

We are losing this battle but winning the war by Biden losing and Dems winning in 4 years.

[Kampuchea]

Tired of the pressure from team Biden on the Bernie supporters.

[Clyde_Style]

Let's play nice guys.

Anyway, yes I think it is important that Biden will be able to support more progressive policies than he's been credited with being capable of backing because the times call for it.

For example, he's actively talking about student loan relief right now. That may not be universal free college some want, but that was a long shot this election cycle anyway. Just getting a bill passed that affords debt relief for student loans would automatically change the lives of tens of millions of America. That is actual change. One step at a time can take you in the right direction.

I didn’t write what I wrote with a hint of malice or aggression. It’s simply the cold hard facts. If you’re a Progressive noting voting for Biden gets you none of what you want and it actively sets you two steps back. What did the Bernie supporters that sat out or voted third party achieve in 2016? How has having Trump as President moved any of their agenda forward?

Garbage. Biden will be such a failure that he will set back the Dems for a couple decades.

Trump out after 4 more years, progressives can take over from there.

We are losing this battle but winning the war by Biden losing and Dems winning in 4 years.

You've posted this multiple times with zero substantiation.

Since you think it will be better to lose so they can appoint corrupt judges and the Supreme Court that will determine the direction of the country for the next 30 years, I'd say you're the one spouting garbage.

[J9Starks3]

Let's play nice guys.

Anyway, yes I think it is important that Biden will be able to support more progressive policies than he's been credited with being capable of backing because the times call for it.

For example, he's actively talking about student loan relief right now. That may not be universal free college some want, but that was a long shot this election cycle anyway. Just getting a bill passed that affords debt relief for student loans would automatically change the lives of tens of millions of America. That is actual change. One step at a time can take you in the right direction.

I didn’t write what I wrote with a hint of malice or aggression. It’s simply the cold hard facts. If you’re a Progressive noting voting for Biden gets you none of what you want and it actively sets you two steps back. What did the Bernie supporters that sat out or voted third party achieve in 2016? How has having Trump as President moved any of their agenda forward?

Garbage. Biden will be such a failure that he will set back the Dems for a couple decades.

Trump out after 4 more years, progressives can take over from there.

We are losing this battle but winning the war by Biden losing and Dems winning in 4 years.

As a Libertarian I really can’t stand either Trump or Biden (or Bernie for that matter, but at least I can respect him even if I disagree). One thing a lot of my R friends said/did in 2016 was say they weren’t voting for Trump but only voting to keep Scalia’s seat conservative.

I don’t want to tell you how/why to vote but I feel all my D friends vote so hard on this “purity” test (again, Libertarian I get it) that they lose sight of the bigger picture. You think the Rs lose the war with Trump for 4 more years because some “pure” D will then rise up. History says otherwise...meanwhile RBG and Breyer both >80... even if you get Bernie 2.0 in for 2024 how does it look +2 with those justices removed and replaced with 2 conservatives?

I’m personally not voting for either candidate- I haven’t voted for the D or R in a long time and simply “waste my vote” on an alternative. But I find it interesting that so many of my R friends keep racking up these “battles” that my D friends don’t even realize are taking place...

[duetta]

You've posted this multiple times with zero substantiation.

You are debating with advocates of voodoo politics. The Republicans practice voodoo economics and the Sanders voters practice voodoo politics - they're going to outperform at the polls, bring all these new voters out, etc - except none of it happens, just like voodoo economic tax cuts don't pay for themselves.

At some point, it makes no sense to argue.

The Sanders candidacy had a practical ceiling of about 30-35% in the Democratic Party - which assumes that he got all the left, some of which were women extremely pissed off that four fully qualified women were passed over for geriatric men. Even I didn't realized how much of Warren's support came from women who were not automatically moving over to Sanders (as I was not).

The only way that Sanders could have raised his ceiling would have been to bring African Americans in mass over to his campaign. He couldn't close the deal - whereas Biden got Jim Clyburn to vouch for him, and the rest is history.

At this point, if anyone's stock is rising, it's Andrew Cuomo - who I was happy to support over that amateur Cynthia Nixon in 2018. Sanders' support in the national Democratic Party is pretty much what Nixon's was in the NYS Democratic Party in 2018. You don't win elections with these kind of candidates, except under incredibly unusual circumstances.

[Clyde_Style]

I didn’t write what I wrote with a hint of malice or aggression. It’s simply the cold hard facts. If you’re a Progressive noting voting for Biden gets you none of what you want and it actively sets you two steps back. What did the Bernie supporters that sat out or voted third party achieve in 2016? How has having Trump as President moved any of their agenda forward?

Garbage. Biden will be such a failure that he will set back the Dems for a couple decades.

Trump out after 4 more years, progressives can take over from there.

We are losing this battle but winning the war by Biden losing and Dems winning in 4 years.

As a Libertarian I really can’t stand either Trump or Biden (or Bernie for that matter, but at least I can respect him even if I disagree). One thing a lot of my R friends said/did in 2016 was say they weren’t voting for Trump but only voting to keep Scalia’s seat conservative.

I don’t want to tell you how/why to vote but I feel all my D friends vote so hard on this “purity” test (again, Libertarian I get it) that they lose sight of the bigger picture. You think the Rs lose the war with Trump for 4 more years because some “pure” D will then rise up. History says otherwise...meanwhile RBG and Breyer both >80... even if you get Bernie 2.0 in for 2024 how does it look +2 with those justices removed and replaced with 2 conservatives?

I’m personally not voting for either candidate- I haven’t voted for the D or R in a long time and simply “waste my vote” on an alternative. But I find it interesting that so many of my R friends keep racking up these “battles” that my D friends don’t even realize are taking place...

Sifu say: Don't bring a knife to a gun fight

[robillionaire]

What more do you want here? How about this? Joe Biden will be running a more Progressive platform than any candidate in the past decade, probably two decades. I know it sucks that it’s not Bernie but you can either get some of what you want with Biden or none of what you want with Trump while the country burns around you. I think the decision is pretty easy.

Let's play nice guys.

Anyway, yes I think it is important that Biden will be able to support more progressive policies than he's been credited with being capable of backing because the times call for it.

For example, he's actively talking about student loan relief right now. That may not be universal free college some want, but that was a long shot this election cycle anyway. Just getting a bill passed that affords debt relief for student loans would automatically change the lives of tens of millions of America. That is actual change. One step at a time can take you in the right direction.

I didn’t write what I wrote with a hint of malice or aggression. It’s simply the cold hard facts. If you’re a Progressive noting voting for Biden gets you none of what you want and it actively sets you two steps back. What did the Bernie supporters that sat out or voted third party achieve in 2016? How has having Trump as President moved any of their agenda forward?

I didn’t take it that way anyway so it’s fine. But if someone wants to be mad about my vote, they can be mad. Doesn’t matter.

I live in New York, Dems will win anyway. So I get to vote for someone who represents policies I actually support. I’m not expecting to get anything in my agenda no matter who wins the election, that’s out the window. Progressives got blamed for 2016 and the groundwork is already being laid out to blame us for 2020 as well no matter what we do. It’s like being in an abusive relationship.

I only speak for me, I’m sure some others will eventually be more receptive to the endless shaming and browbeating coming their way for the next 8 months

[aq_ua]

I didn’t write what I wrote with a hint of malice or aggression. It’s simply the cold hard facts. If you’re a Progressive noting voting for Biden gets you none of what you want and it actively sets you two steps back. What did the Bernie supporters that sat out or voted third party achieve in 2016? How has having Trump as President moved any of their agenda forward?

Garbage. Biden will be such a failure that he will set back the Dems for a couple decades.

Trump out after 4 more years, progressives can take over from there.

We are losing this battle but winning the war by Biden losing and Dems winning in 4 years.

As a Libertarian I really can’t stand either Trump or Biden (or Bernie for that matter, but at least I can respect him even if I disagree). One thing a lot of my R friends said/did in 2016 was say they weren’t voting for Trump but only voting to keep Scalia’s seat conservative.

I don’t want to tell you how/why to vote but I feel all my D friends vote so hard on this “purity” test (again, Libertarian I get it) that they lose sight of the bigger picture. You think the Rs lose the war with Trump for 4 more years because some “pure” D will then rise up. History says otherwise...meanwhile RBG and Breyer both >80... even if you get Bernie 2.0 in for 2024 how does it look +2 with those justices removed and replaced with 2 conservatives?

I’m personally not voting for either candidate- I haven’t voted for the D or R in a long time and simply “waste my vote” on an alternative. But I find it interesting that so many of my R friends keep racking up these “battles” that my D friends don’t even realize are taking place...

Is it surprising that both sides are ideological but from sharply contrasting perspectives? D ideology is about social welfare regardless of the impact to any one individual in the now, while R ideology is all about the individual in the now. Both perspectives need to exist for there to be a healthy debate about balancing the needs of the future overall good and the immediate needs of the now. The recent history of the world’s selfishness has made thinking about the future overall good more relevant and thus the D argument more rational. That pushes the R side into thinking more tactically to continue conveying its message or risk becoming irrelevant. That doesn’t mean D should also adopt the same tactics though. It should retain its ideological base to provide the contrast, until (hopefully) the pendulum swings too far and the R appeal returns.

[Clyde_Style]

Garbage. Biden will be such a failure that he will set back the Dems for a couple decades.

Trump out after 4 more years, progressives can take over from there.

We are losing this battle but winning the war by Biden losing and Dems winning in 4 years.

As a Libertarian I really can’t stand either Trump or Biden (or Bernie for that matter, but at least I can respect him even if I disagree). One thing a lot of my R friends said/did in 2016 was say they weren’t voting for Trump but only voting to keep Scalia’s seat conservative.

I don’t want to tell you how/why to vote but I feel all my D friends vote so hard on this “purity” test (again, Libertarian I get it) that they lose sight of the bigger picture. You think the Rs lose the war with Trump for 4 more years because some “pure” D will then rise up. History says otherwise...meanwhile RBG and Breyer both >80... even if you get Bernie 2.0 in for 2024 how does it look +2 with those justices removed and replaced with 2 conservatives?

I’m personally not voting for either candidate- I haven’t voted for the D or R in a long time and simply “waste my vote” on an alternative. But I find it interesting that so many of my R friends keep racking up these “battles” that my D friends don’t even realize are taking place...

Is it surprising that both sides are ideological but from sharply contrasting perspectives? D ideology is about social welfare regardless of the impact to any one individual in the now, while R ideology is all about the individual in the now. Both perspectives need to exist for there to be a healthy debate about balancing the needs of the future overall good and the immediate needs of the now. The recent history of the world’s selfishness has made thinking about the future overall good more relevant and thus the D argument more rational. That pushes the R side into thinking more tactically to continue conveying its message or risk becoming irrelevant. That doesn’t mean D should also adopt the same tactics though. It should retain its ideological base to provide the contrast, until (hopefully) the pendulum swings too far and the R appeal returns.

I respect the theoretical framing, but IMO the idea of the two parties being counterpoints is not really a sustainable premise due to the obscene corruption that has consumed the GOP.

The premise that the Republican party upholds some semblance of traditional conservative values is no longer a defensible idea. It is strictly an organization dedicated to maintaining political control by any means necessary to extract maximum gain for party members and the donors who fund their campaigns.

They do pander to evangelicals and bigoted whites, but that's strategy, not a value system. Their values are strictly driven by profit. Their control strategy is driven by the belief their white majority is fading so they must do what they can to skew the demographics in their favor for as long as possible.

Unless pure greed is deemed an ideology, the GOP is not an ideologically driven organization, but a for profit corporation aided and abetted by racial animosity.

Considering how Trump and his cronies, like the Lt. Gov. of Texas, are already pitching the premise that we should purge the elders to make way for commerce, I'd say this has gone well beyond party comparisons between social welfare and individual rights. It has progressed to the point the GOP is racing head first into the abyss and willing to take us all with them. They just think if they amass enough money before the lights go out they'll be safe, but they won't. If they court the grim reaper and try to kill us and mother earth off they'll get theirs too.

[aq_ua]

As a Libertarian I really can’t stand either Trump or Biden (or Bernie for that matter, but at least I can respect him even if I disagree). One thing a lot of my R friends said/did in 2016 was say they weren’t voting for Trump but only voting to keep Scalia’s seat conservative.

I don’t want to tell you how/why to vote but I feel all my D friends vote so hard on this “purity” test (again, Libertarian I get it) that they lose sight of the bigger picture. You think the Rs lose the war with Trump for 4 more years because some “pure” D will then rise up. History says otherwise...meanwhile RBG and Breyer both >80... even if you get Bernie 2.0 in for 2024 how does it look +2 with those justices removed and replaced with 2 conservatives?

I’m personally not voting for either candidate- I haven’t voted for the D or R in a long time and simply “waste my vote” on an alternative. But I find it interesting that so many of my R friends keep racking up these “battles” that my D friends don’t even realize are taking place...

Is it surprising that both sides are ideological but from sharply contrasting perspectives? D ideology is about social welfare regardless of the impact to any one individual in the now, while R ideology is all about the individual in the now. Both perspectives need to exist for there to be a healthy debate about balancing the needs of the future overall good and the immediate needs of the now. The recent history of the world’s selfishness has made thinking about the future overall good more relevant and thus the D argument more rational. That pushes the R side into thinking more tactically to continue conveying its message or risk becoming irrelevant. That doesn’t mean D should also adopt the same tactics though. It should retain its ideological base to provide the contrast, until (hopefully) the pendulum swings too far and the R appeal returns.

I respect the theoretical framing, but IMO the idea of the two parties being counterpoints is not really a sustainable premise due to the obscene corruption that has consumed the GOP.

The premise that the Republican party upholds some semblance of traditional conservative values is no longer a defensible idea. It is strictly an organization dedicated to maintaining political control by any means necessary to extract maximum gain for party members and the donors who fund their campaigns.

They do pander to evangelicals and bigoted whites, but that's strategy, not a value system. Their values are strictly driven by profit. Their control strategy is driven by the belief their white majority is fading so they must do what they can to skew the demographics in their favor for as long as possible.

Unless pure greed is deemed an ideology, the GOP is not an ideologically driven organization, but a for profit corporation aided and abetted by racial animosity.

Considering how Trump and his cronies, like the Lt. Gov. of Texas, are already pitching the premise that we should purge the elders to make way for commerce, I'd say this has gone well beyond party comparisons between social welfare and individual rights. It has progressed to the point the GOP is racing head first into the abyss and willing to take us all with them. They just think if they amass enough money before the lights go out they'll be safe, but they won't. If they court the grim reaper and try to kill us and mother earth off they'll get theirs too.

The bolded is sort of my point. The world has benefited from selfish actions for a long time now, and the "middle" has now swung towards revisiting these values and thinking more about the long-term social good. The GOP has no base in the "middle" anymore, and has found a few unsavory demographic groups that it can leverage to continue pushing its ideological values, basically for the party's survival. Granted, those groups certain influence GOP policies, but I don't think they represent the GOP values, at least those held by its traditional leadership. There's a tendency to demonize and frankly GOP makes themselves an easy target with their tactics, but nothing happens in a vacuum and a lot of the mess of what we see today is the aggregation of activities and decisions that were made all along the way by all parties.

[Stannis]

Progressives got blamed for 2016 and the groundwork is already being laid out to blame us for 2020 as well no matter what we do. It’s like being in an abusive relationship.

I have to agree with this.

The clear sign is progressives being blamed for not going out to vote for Bernie in the primaries (which is fair), but then blamed/will be blamed if they don't vote for the Democrat in the General Election (not fair).

The DNC is already trying to find their scapegoat (Bernie and his supporters) if Biden fumbles in November. Because apparently if you don't pick the **** that smells better, you are a Trump supporter.

The writing is on the wall.

[Stannis]

Bernie apparently staying until the NY Primary, which I think is great for multiple reasons.

1) Keep the pressure on the establishment to adopt progressive policies. Continue to let them know we aren't going to bend because of empty promises or you asked nicely.
2) I think continuing the primaries will push the USA to start some form of remote voting. Ending the primary due to the Covid-19 is not an option. People want to vote, and you can't take that away from them. VERY undemocratic.



Just to keep things realistic:

Read on Twitter

?s=20

We saw Bush win 2004 despite how he handled 9/11. Never underestimate GOP voters. They are a loyal bunch. If DNC wants to win 2020, they can't continue to go thinking they are entitled to votes because "Trump most go". They can't go in thinking it's just about "uniting the party" with a vanilla leader like Biden. You need new votes and swing votes to beat Trump.

[GONYK]

Bernie apparently staying until the NY Primary, which I think is great for multiple reasons.

1) Keep the pressure on the establishment to adopt progressive policies. Continue to let them know we aren't going to bend because of empty promises or you asked nicely.
2) I think continuing the primaries will push the USA to start some form of remote voting. Ending the primary due to the Covid-19 is not an option. People want to vote, and you can't take that away from them. VERY undemocratic.



Just to keep things realistic:

Read on Twitter

?s=20

We saw Bush win 2004 despite how he handled 9/11. Never underestimate GOP voters. They are a loyal bunch. If DNC wants to win 2020, they can't continue to go thinking they are entitled to votes because "Trump most go". They can't go in thinking it's just about "uniting the party" with a vanilla leader like Biden. You need new votes and swing votes to beat Trump.

...which Bernie has not proven the ability to provide.

So it seems that you are saying the Dems are screwed either way.

[Stannis]

...which Bernie has not proven the ability to provide.

So it seems that you are saying the Dems are screwed either way.

Well I have said before I don't see either defeating Trump in 2020.

But I like my chances with Bernie a little better. He'll bring more independent voters. And all the DNC/Establishment voters will vote for him regardless (since they are still embarrassed and really want Trump to go down). The younger generation turnout will be better in the GE.

With Biden, he'll probably lose a good chunk of young/progressive voters, since most generally don't like him and see through the bs

[Clyde_Style]

...which Bernie has not proven the ability to provide.

So it seems that you are saying the Dems are screwed either way.

Well I have said before I don't see either defeating Trump in 2020.

But I like my chances with Bernie a little better. He'll bring more independent voters. And all the DNC/Establishment voters will vote for him regardless (since they are still embarrassed and really want Trump to go down). The younger generation turnout will be better in the GE.

With Biden, he'll probably lose a good chunk of young/progressive voters, since most generally don't like him and see through the bs

I wouldn't base any election projections on the current situation. In a month, we may easily see a million infected and deaths climbing into the tens of thousands and still no coherent federal response. Trump wants to sacrifice the elderly so he can reopen his own businesses and it seems he's going to get his wish to some extent. What people say today or what any poll says today is going to be quite different in a month and beyond so I suggest we see where this heads first before placing any bets. Trump's electability today may become irrelevant very soon.