The uncomfortable "truth" about this season (Julius and RJ)

[BugginOut]

A) it is certainly possible that he tightens his handle into opening up more spots on the floor, but ultimately, I don't think it's realistic for him to operate anywhere but mainly the elbow within the next year or 2. Melo operated mostly out of this spot in the triple threat and post. But if this spot wasn't going for him, he had another spot which was the top of the key. Melo was always functional as a pick and roll ball handler, but this just isn't in Randle's game and I don't think it can be developed in 1 summer

B) I'm not sure he should be a play-making hub, because I don't think he can consistently get his teammates open shots. What worries me most about Randle is his effort when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. I don't see him setting good picks for his teammates or moving around off the ball on cuts or hunting better spots along the 3 pt line to create a better passing lane for whoevers driving to get him the ball easier.

I'd like to be optimistic, but I personally just don't see it. I just can't reasonably expect him to add a whole side to his game that we haven't seen yet

Where is this notion that Randle doesn’t set good screens come from? Him setting screens was the only reason Bullock was open half the time. He even set hard screens to get Rose open without the ball (the type of screens where it should be called and offensive foul half the time).

Randle is a good off ball player. He’s a great defender, rebounder and leader. He sucked in the playoffs, but you can’t slander the man for his effort when he lead the lead in minutes by a mile and gave consistent effort on both ends nearly every night.

I don't doubt that he sets good screens from time to time, but I find that most of the time he's just setting slip screens.

I think he's a good perimeter defender when he wants to be, but I think the effort can be inconsistent. I don't think he's a good help defender. I very rarely see him being the first guy on the floor when there's a loose ball. I very rarely see him sacrificing his body to take charges. Maybe he can be if he had less of an offensive load I just haven't seen this this thirst for defense that I see on offense.

Read on Twitter

I’m not even a huge fan of Randle, but the effort he showed this season while leading the league in minutes should not be understated.

He also averaged 1.6 screen assists a game which is top 30 in the NBA

[Ghetto Gospel]

Where is this notion that Randle doesn’t set good screens come from? Him setting screens was the only reason Bullock was open half the time. He even set hard screens to get Rose open without the ball (the type of screens where it should be called and offensive foul half the time).

Randle is a good off ball player. He’s a great defender, rebounder and leader. He sucked in the playoffs, but you can’t slander the man for his effort when he lead the lead in minutes by a mile and gave consistent effort on both ends nearly every night.

I don't doubt that he sets good screens from time to time, but I find that most of the time he's just setting slip screens.

I think he's a good perimeter defender when he wants to be, but I think the effort can be inconsistent. I don't think he's a good help defender. I very rarely see him being the first guy on the floor when there's a loose ball. I very rarely see him sacrificing his body to take charges. Maybe he can be if he had less of an offensive load I just haven't seen this this thirst for defense that I see on offense.

Read on Twitter

I’m not even a huge fan of Randle, but the effort he showed this season while leading the league in minutes should not be understated.

He also averaged 1.6 screen assists a game which is top 30 in the NBA

I mean.. should I start linking clips where Randle just ball watches?

Is top 30 in the NBA good for a big that leads the league in minutes?

[HarthorneWingo]

I know you did. If you're going to lose games, you got a have at least one colorful character on your team. I, for one, will be forever grateful for the beatdown he put on Melo on his first return to the Garden with OKC. Especially since Greenie was still with us back then. I thoroughly enjoyed watching her eat crow. (I betcha that was a good wake-up call for Melo which - eventually - precipitated the evolution of his game. And, in all seriousness, I was happy to see an old man make the necessary adjustments to become a more team-oriented player. Of course, it never happens when the player is with US.

Beas was kind like Free Candy, except better.

Vernon Maxwell comes to mind. Maybe he was before your time.

Rodman is a great example. I watched a lot of Bulls back then, and he was must watch TV every game. He usually didn't disappoint either with some antic he pulled. That said, he was a great, great player in his own right. The reason it worked is because the Bulls had MJ and Phil to keep Rodman in line.

I actually hung out with Rodman twice. He was the coolest dude. We used to go to this specific club, and he would be there in the middle of the crowd just having fun. As opposed to Scottie and MJ, who were always roped off everywhere they went.

What's cool about Beas is that he's actually made a great career for himself. People can rip on him all they want, but he's still in the league cashing checks. And good for him. It's so fun to have that type of character on your roster.

I don't remember a lot about Vernon, other than he was a pretty good player. And I think a great defender? I might be wrong about that.

Mad Max was a tough defender and a nut.

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Yeah, Vernon was a bit rambunctious. I lived in Philly when he played there. He was Lance Stephenson before Lance Stephenson.

[Ghetto Gospel]

Where is this notion that Randle doesn’t set good screens come from? Him setting screens was the only reason Bullock was open half the time. He even set hard screens to get Rose open without the ball (the type of screens where it should be called and offensive foul half the time).

Randle is a good off ball player. He’s a great defender, rebounder and leader. He sucked in the playoffs, but you can’t slander the man for his effort when he lead the lead in minutes by a mile and gave consistent effort on both ends nearly every night.

I don't doubt that he sets good screens from time to time, but I find that most of the time he's just setting slip screens.

I think he's a good perimeter defender when he wants to be, but I think the effort can be inconsistent. I don't think he's a good help defender. I very rarely see him being the first guy on the floor when there's a loose ball. I very rarely see him sacrificing his body to take charges. Maybe he can be if he had less of an offensive load I just haven't seen this this thirst for defense that I see on offense.

Read on Twitter

I’m not even a huge fan of Randle, but the effort he showed this season while leading the league in minutes should not be understated.

He also averaged 1.6 screen assists a game which is top 30 in the NBA

I decided to fact check that 1.6 screen assists/game. It isn't top 30 it's among the likes of Xavier Tillman who plays 6mpg and Jeff Green who plays 20mpg

[Stannis]

You have to ask yourself if you think Randle can outperform this season and the answer is no

[cgf]

You have to ask yourself if you think Randle can outperform this season and the answer is no

Define outperform. I think he could get even better, but not getting the usage/role to put up the same kind of raw totals.

[BugginOut]

I don't doubt that he sets good screens from time to time, but I find that most of the time he's just setting slip screens.

I think he's a good perimeter defender when he wants to be, but I think the effort can be inconsistent. I don't think he's a good help defender. I very rarely see him being the first guy on the floor when there's a loose ball. I very rarely see him sacrificing his body to take charges. Maybe he can be if he had less of an offensive load I just haven't seen this this thirst for defense that I see on offense.

Read on Twitter

I’m not even a huge fan of Randle, but the effort he showed this season while leading the league in minutes should not be understated.

He also averaged 1.6 screen assists a game which is top 30 in the NBA

I decided to fact check that 1.6 screen assists/game. It isn't top 30 it's among the likes of Xavier Tillman who plays 6mpg and Jeff Green who plays 20mpg

Nevermind we were both looking at playoff stats. For the regular season Randle averaged 2.5 screen assists a game. More than Brook Lopez, Anthony Davis, etc.

That also still doesn’t account for what Randle does on the boards and on defense

[prophet_of_rage]

I personally think it's fine to shoot the mid-range if you're elite at it. After all, CP3, KD, and Kawhi still shoot that shot prolifically. The issue with Randle is that he isn't the same caliber of shooter that those guys are.

I think it is possible for Randle to play the 5, but I don't think he wants it. A lot of small ball 5's like Draymond and PJ Tucker get by on defense because they want it. They're willing to sacrifice their body on every play, willing to step in front of everyone always ready to take a hit and a charge. When was the last time we've seen anyone on our team take a serious charge or be the first one to dive for a loose ball outside of Taj Gibson? These guys are all bark no bite. They talk about how bad they want it and how hard they work, but they don't show how bad they want it on the court. I don't want to single out Randle for not wanting it, Anthony Davis doesn't want it either and he's the ultimate "small ball" 5 even if he isn't small.

How would you handle the offseason? No filter but realistically.

What I want the Knicks to do? I want them to blow it all up and rebuild getting whatever assets we can get. I'm okay with even calling up OKC and asking if they'd be interested in pairing SGA with RJ to form Team Canada over there, if they end up getting a top 5 pick. I would then start a 4 year tank where we stock up on talent and if we end up getting 1 star within those 4 years, I would start surrounding them with applicable vets filling needs as necessary.

Having those young guys on rookie deals is great because ultimately it's "cheap labor". If you look at guys like Luka, Trae, Tatum, Zion, etc. All of those guys on their little 6-7m/year deals are steals. If you can then sign all vets to fill up all the cap space before their deals are due, you're efficiently maximizing your salary cap because you can go then start to go over the cap since you have the bird rights to all those guys on rookie deals. You have a good mix of young guys and vets with a ton of talent to go around.

I don't know if you follow football at all but to me there's only one thing better than having Patrick Mahomes, and it's having Patrick Mahomes on a rookie deal, where he's only eating up $5m of your cap space. It allowed the Chiefs to surround him with heavy money guys like Chris Jones, Travis Kelce, Tyreke Hill, Tyrann Mathieu, etc. Though not a perfect analogy because in football you're not allowed to go over the cap, cheap labor is even more powerful in basketball because you're allowed to go over the salary cap so long as you have their bird rights

The cheap labour has to be good. This is the gamble with tanking and it doesn't end you up any closer to contention most times. You see Zion with vets and lottery pick all stars can't make the play in. He has to be the point guard now to work with anybody. You're just selling hope again.


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[prophet_of_rage]

That's a really good breakdown.

It's just hard to envision Randle becoming an efficient scorer, because the spots he likes to operate from tend to lead to inefficient shots (unless you're Kawhi, Embiid or Jokic), especially since he has a hard time getting to the rim since you have to play a 5 alongside him to protect the rim and he doesn't have great touch around the basket anyway.

And as you said, what is he if you push him to more of an off-ball role, an inevitable development if you're gonna bring in an actual franchise player who also needs the ball?

He's not exactly a dominant pick-and-roll or pick-and-pop player. He's definitely not a rim-runner. He's become a good 3-point shooter, but do you want to pay him max dollars to be primarily a spot-up shooter? I don't know.

The problem is that Randle's success this year came from him turning into a pretty good on-ball player. But pretty good isn't good enough to win championships, and what he can do as an off-ball player is a bit of a question mark.

I'm not saying we should absolutely trade him. But it might not be in our best interest long-term to keep him. The Warriors will want to win next year and they have draft assets, so they seem like a logical trade partner.

I think we're forgetting what happened to KP and Amar'e, two players who became All-Stars on mediocre Knicks teams due to high-usage and who couldn't adjust to a lesser role playing alongside better players. KP and Amar'e are cautionary tales, but I'm afraid the Knicks organization and our fanbase are too desperate to notice the parallels.

Prepare LB broth

A) there’s still the possibility that something like tightening his handle over the offseason & perfecting some counters when teams force him to go right; opens up more “spots” for him on the floor to really thrive.

but mostly b) he should still be a play-making hub that requires the defense’s attention. Even as an off the ball guy, with Mitch & his man by the rim, moving Julius around & moving the ball through him should cause the defense to shift around its focus…even if the play ends up going back to RJ or Sexton / Lavine / Booker and Julius’s touch turns out to just be a decoy that the defense has to respect.

That sort of stuff can increase everyone’s efficiency just by forcing defenses out of things they do to counter specific players, even if those creators don’t have a really defined role when off the ball. I'm being vague because the specifics will depend a lot on who we acquire and how exactly RJ & Julius develop their games from here.

Which is why my position is ultimately more of a "wait & see what further information tells us" one for now...at least unless there's a crazy 'instantly jumpstart your rebuild' offer out there that would be a good move even if Julius proves he's a legit All-NBA guy & wins a ring as a 2nd option.

A) it is certainly possible that he tightens his handle into opening up more spots on the floor, but ultimately, I don't think it's realistic for him to operate anywhere but mainly the elbow within the next year or 2. Melo operated mostly out of this spot in the triple threat and post. But if this spot wasn't going for him, he had another spot which was the top of the key. Melo was always functional as a pick and roll ball handler, but this just isn't in Randle's game and I don't think it can be developed in 1 summer

B) I'm not sure he should be a play-making hub, because I don't think he can consistently get his teammates open shots. What worries me most about Randle is his effort when he doesn't have the ball in his hands. I don't see him setting good picks for his teammates or moving around off the ball on cuts or hunting better spots along the 3 pt line to create a better passing lane for whoevers driving to get him the ball easier.

I'd like to be optimistic, but I personally just don't see it. I just can't reasonably expect him to add a whole side to his game that we haven't seen yet

Randle got his team open shots. They couldn't hit them.

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[Ghetto Gospel]

Read on Twitter

I’m not even a huge fan of Randle, but the effort he showed this season while leading the league in minutes should not be understated.

He also averaged 1.6 screen assists a game which is top 30 in the NBA

I decided to fact check that 1.6 screen assists/game. It isn't top 30 it's among the likes of Xavier Tillman who plays 6mpg and Jeff Green who plays 20mpg

Nevermind we were both looking at playoff stats. For the regular season Randle averaged 2.5 screen assists a game. More than Brook Lopez, Anthony Davis, etc.

That also still doesn’t account for what Randle does on the boards and on defense

yeah, I realized too that we were looking at playoff stats. but that's also outside the top 50 in the nba for the regular season and we been known that brook lopez and AD were soft

I think randle is a good rebounder and good man defender when he wants to be. I don't blame him for not hustling as much and for his off-ball defense because of how heavy his offensive load is. I'm just unsure if he has that hustle and drive in him to do it consistently that's all

[NYKat]

That doesn't put us in the top 3, and the gap between the Sixers / Bucks / Nets group and the rest of the East is pretty big. You're not gonna be better than the Bucks with a player who plays the same position as Giannis but is worse, and guards who Holiday can defend. And you're also forgetting that the Pacers, Hornets, Bulls and Raptors are in the lottery, any of those teams winning the lottery or ending up in the top 5 of it is bad news for us.

Pairing anyone with Randle is a losing idea, he's not a 2, and he's on track to be paid like a 1. It's like Magic fans who were hoping they could pair someone with Vucevic.

Im not sure that people realize how top heavy the east is. Barring injury or extreme improvements the best we can hope for with everything going right is top 4

We made top 4 with Randle as our best player and y’all don’t think we improve Dame, Harden or Booker?

just cause we lost in the first round, Knick fans when scrap everything and start over…

Sh*t is a process, you don’t go from 0 to 100, n*gga real quick… As long as we’re fiscally smart, you go through the the process development…

This why they say you can’t rebuild in NY, smdh

[NoDopeOnSundays]

That doesn't put us in the top 3, and the gap between the Sixers / Bucks / Nets group and the rest of the East is pretty big. You're not gonna be better than the Bucks with a player who plays the same position as Giannis but is worse, and guards who Holiday can defend. And you're also forgetting that the Pacers, Hornets, Bulls and Raptors are in the lottery, any of those teams winning the lottery or ending up in the top 5 of it is bad news for us.

Pairing anyone with Randle is a losing idea, he's not a 2, and he's on track to be paid like a 1. It's like Magic fans who were hoping they could pair someone with Vucevic.

Im not sure that people realize how top heavy the east is. Barring injury or extreme improvements the best we can hope for with everything going right is top 4

We made top 4 with Randle as our best player and y’all don’t think we improve Dame, Harden or Booker?

just cause we lost in the first round, Knick fans when scrap everything and start over…

Sh*t is a process, you don’t go from 0 to 100, n*gga real quick… As long as we’re fiscally smart, you go through the process development…

This why they say you can’t rebuild in NY

Top 4, lost to the 5th seed who is obviously better than us, and now they're getting curb stomped by the Sixers.

We aren't getting Harden or Booker, and Lillard + our team isn't good enough to beat the Sixers, Bucks, or Nets. We picked the worst time to compete, a year with weak free agents, most stars locked up long term and a great draft where we're not in the lottery.

[Adelheid]

You have to ask yourself if you think Randle can outperform this season and the answer is no

I would love to see him improve off-ball, honestly

Seeing him pour 30ppg on decent efficiency is nice but not to the expense of hijacking the team offense.

[HarthorneWingo]

You have to ask yourself if you think Randle can outperform this season and the answer is no

He doesn't need to outperform what he did this past season. You're right, he's not going to continue to hit 3s at 42%. But even at $25M/year, Julius make 38% from 3, plus the assists and rebounds, is fine. He just needs some more help. His contract will be a great value and, therefore, easy to move if necessary.

[Jimmit79]

You have to ask yourself if you think Randle can outperform this season and the answer is no

He doesn't need to outperform what he did this past season. You're right, he's not going to continue to hit 3s at 42%. But even at $25M/year, Julius make 38% from 3, plus the assists and rebounds, is fine. He just needs some more help. His contract will be a great value and, therefore, easy to move if necessary.

He's going to be looking for 35mil per year

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[Oscirus]

That doesn't put us in the top 3, and the gap between the Sixers / Bucks / Nets group and the rest of the East is pretty big. You're not gonna be better than the Bucks with a player who plays the same position as Giannis but is worse, and guards who Holiday can defend. And you're also forgetting that the Pacers, Hornets, Bulls and Raptors are in the lottery, any of those teams winning the lottery or ending up in the top 5 of it is bad news for us.

Pairing anyone with Randle is a losing idea, he's not a 2, and he's on track to be paid like a 1. It's like Magic fans who were hoping they could pair someone with Vucevic.

Im not sure that people realize how top heavy the east is. Barring injury or extreme improvements the best we can hope for with everything going right is top 4

We made top 4 with Randle as our best player and y’all don’t think we improve Dame, Harden or Booker?

just cause we lost in the first round, Knick fans when scrap everything and start over…

Sh*t is a process, you don’t go from 0 to 100, n*gga real quick… As long as we’re fiscally smart, you go through the the process development…

This why they say you can’t rebuild in NY, smdh

The top 3 have 3 and chemistry and you expect us to crash the party with 2 players getting to know each other? Even if the impossible were to happen it would t least take a few years for these guys to become a well oiled machine. If they somehow managed to out talent everyone which is the only way theyd success, 4 is their ceiling

[Oscirus]

I don't expect them to be efficient. I never blamed them for being inefficient.

I don't think playing with a competent point guard will generate this dramatic uptick in scoring efficiency for Randle and RJ. Will it help? Sure, absolutely. Will it turn them into efficient players? Probably not.

You mention the center position but the fact that Randle can't or doesn't play the 5 is a problem, since it forces us to play a non-shooting big to protect the rim on the other end.

We wont know what rj is for at least two years if he's still here so it's hard to say what his efficiency will be like at his peak. Randle is hard to say one way or the other since he gets most of the attention Id still say that having help would at the very least get him to the league average if not above it. He's not that far off now on this team.

You're right our inability to go small is problematic especially in the future, but I legit dont know if thats more on randle or Thibs since we never even tried.

You're right, and I believe Thibs made a massive mistake not going small with Randle at the 5 against Atlanta. The Knicks were getting smoked with his formula, what did he have to lose?

I'm a big believer in RJ and I believe we should be patient with him. I don't expect him to make the leap to stardom before year 4 at the earliest (if he ever does). But one can still recognize that the early results aren't very convincing. He's an inefficient scorer playing a limited 3&D role. He's not being inefficient creating offense like a Lamelo Ball or a Ja Morant. He's being inefficient taking mostly wide-open 3s and attacking the basket. Shot creation isn't part of his skill set (yet). I personally consider him a keeper, but I don't think it's unreasonable for some people to doubt him.

Randle reaching league-average, or hovering just over it, is not good enough. He needs to be better. Although Donovan Mitchell's scoring efficiency in the regular season is nothing to write home about, to be fair. But Mitchell is a way more dynamic player, in addition to being younger, and being an incredible playoff performer.

Glass half empty, you're right. Inefficiency is concerning esp since he's working as no.2 on the knicks. On the other hand, shooting and defense are two things that were weaknesses for him coming into the nba and he's coming along really well on those aspects.
He's admittedly a frustrating prospect because unlike most theres not a defined path for him, but Im of the school of mind that it is way to early to just get rid of him before we can see what happens. Ive seen enough promise for him to be patient, though i can see why others wouldnt.

What you say for randle is fair enough. If his numbers drop a little and his efficiency rose, would that be satisfactory? What would make his output satisfactory in your opinion?

[BugginOut]

One of the thing with RJ and to an extent Randle they spend so much energy on defense that their offensive numbers take a hit. If you look at a lot of the wings in the league, that when young were known as two way stoppers, you can see that their efficiency was terrible early on.

This is especially true on Thibs teams, where he demands every player gives 100% on defense. Jimmy, Rose, Deng Noah, etc. were never the most efficient player in the league on the Bulls. It’s easy to be efficient on offense when you don’t have to waste energy on defense every game while playing 40+ minutes a night

[Galou]

Was kobe first playoff experience spectacular?

Yall need to chill. Julius and rj will learn from this experience. Sheeshhh

[Jimmit79]

One of the thing with RJ and to an extent Randle they spend so much energy on defense that their offensive numbers take a hit. If you look at a lot of the wings in the league, that when young were known as two way stoppers, you can see that their efficiency was terrible early on.

This is especially true on Thibs teams, where he demands every player gives 100% on defense. Jimmy, Rose, Deng Noah, etc. were never the most efficient player in the league on the Bulls. It’s easy to be efficient on offense when you don’t have to waste energy on defense every game while playing 40+ minutes a night

RJ and defense don't go together

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