Knicks - Hawks PG: This is what effort looks like

[Jalen Bluntson]

playing him with the bench more is the key. They like to play the same tempo as him and that's the key of unlocking him.

Agree. My argument against the direction the team is taking is just that. PLAY THE DAMN KIDS MORE! Chasing the playoffs with Burks/Bullock/Payton/Taj/Noel/Yada yada yada... is pointless. We all see how much more entertaining it is to watch the kids play over the starter/bench role playing vets we keep running out there max minutes.

Amazing how much better RJ looks with the kids. IMO Randle disrupts any and all flow of the game most of the time. He shouldn't be bringing up the ball. Period.

It’s not pointless, players under development should be able to experience winning and see what it takes to win games and maybe even feel what a playoff atmosphere is like, not just getting gifted beaucoup unearned minutes during losing basketball. The fact that some of them are starting to look good to the point people want them to play more is just an endorsement of what they are doing

No. This is gibberish. We aren't winning anything. The kids we have watched vets get smacked in the playoffs while they rode the bench. No one learned shyt except they might have helped win a game but we're not allowed to play.

What did anyone learn last year? Nothing. You don't learn shyt sitting in a bench behind bums. Try again.

[bearadonisdna]

Agree. My argument against the direction the team is taking is just that. PLAY THE DAMN KIDS MORE! Chasing the playoffs with Burks/Bullock/Payton/Taj/Noel/Yada yada yada... is pointless. We all see how much more entertaining it is to watch the kids play over the starter/bench role playing vets we keep running out there max minutes.

Amazing how much better RJ looks with the kids. IMO Randle disrupts any and all flow of the game most of the time. He shouldn't be bringing up the ball. Period.

It’s not pointless, players under development should be able to experience winning and see what it takes to win games and maybe even feel what a playoff atmosphere is like, not just getting gifted beaucoup unearned minutes during losing basketball. The fact that some of them are starting to look good to the point people want them to play more is just an endorsement of what they are doing

No. This is gibberish. We aren't winning anything. The kids we have watched vets get smacked in the playoffs while they rode the bench. No one learned shyt except they might have helped win a game but we're not allowed to play.

What did anyone learn last year? Nothing. You don't learn shyt sitting in a bench behind bums. Try again.

So your excuse to play the kids is that we’re waving the white flag and admitting we can’t win etc?

Run that one by thibs . It’s a non starter and not realistic. Thibs will play lineup that gives the team the best chance to fulfill whatever his goal is.
Generally that will NEVER include playing rookies on a vet laden roster.



Thibs ain’t no tanking coach , even though he got us in treadmill mode . The kids ain’t gonna get us off That treadmill.

[Jalen Bluntson]

It’s not pointless, players under development should be able to experience winning and see what it takes to win games and maybe even feel what a playoff atmosphere is like, not just getting gifted beaucoup unearned minutes during losing basketball. The fact that some of them are starting to look good to the point people want them to play more is just an endorsement of what they are doing

No. This is gibberish. We aren't winning anything. The kids we have watched vets get smacked in the playoffs while they rode the bench. No one learned shyt except they might have helped win a game but we're not allowed to play.

What did anyone learn last year? Nothing. You don't learn shyt sitting in a bench behind bums. Try again.

So your excuse to play the kids is that we’re waving the white flag and admitting we can’t win etc?

Run that one by thibs . It’s a non starter and not realistic. Thibs will play lineup that gives the team the best chance to fulfill whatever his goal is.
Generally that will NEVER include playing rookies on a vet laden roster.



Thibs ain’t no tanking coach , even though he got us in treadmill mode . The kids ain’t gonna get us off That treadmill.

I didn't make an excuse. I stated facts. Kids don't learn how to win riding the bench on a losing team. Fuq Thibs. The kids won the last game we played. Even if they lose...WHILE PLAYING...then they learn. What did losing while sitting on the bench teach them? Nothing. We watched 3 years of kids riding the bench behind scrub vets. What experience did they get? They learned that they could have tried to help but weren't given the chance.

The direction of this team is stupid. No one is trading a star for Burks/Rose/Noel/Taj etc. They will want the kids...then what? We lose again with no youth or picks. Kemba/Fournier?

Competitive losing is not teaching anyone anything. Draft players and build a roster around them playing a backup role. Not a bench warmer role. Maybe use the D League to develop them? Maybe let them play real games because the limited practice they get during the season is useless. You don't try to win with players that aren't coming back next year. You don't sign a roster full of players that wouldn't be on a winning team and bury the kids. That's been proven.

Kemba is washed. Randle is over paid. None of this makes any sense. We can't keep doing the same failing process evey year and expect anything good to come of it.

Play the kids and live with the results.period

[bearadonisdna]

No. This is gibberish. We aren't winning anything. The kids we have watched vets get smacked in the playoffs while they rode the bench. No one learned shyt except they might have helped win a game but we're not allowed to play.

What did anyone learn last year? Nothing. You don't learn shyt sitting in a bench behind bums. Try again.

So your excuse to play the kids is that we’re waving the white flag and admitting we can’t win etc?

Run that one by thibs . It’s a non starter and not realistic. Thibs will play lineup that gives the team the best chance to fulfill whatever his goal is.
Generally that will NEVER include playing rookies on a vet laden roster.



Thibs ain’t no tanking coach , even though he got us in treadmill mode . The kids ain’t gonna get us off That treadmill.

I didn't make an excuse. I stated facts. Kids don't learn how to win riding the bench on a losing team. Fuq Thibs. The kids won the last game we played. Even if they lose...WHILE PLAYING...then they learn. What did losing while sitting on the bench teach them? Nothing. We watched 3 years of kids riding the bench behind scrub vets. What experience did they get? They learned that they could have tried to help but weren't given the chance.

The direction of this team is stupid. No one is trading a star for Burks/Rose/Noel/Taj etc. They will want the kids...then what? We lose again with no youth or picks. Kemba/Fournier?

Competitive losing is not teaching anyone anything. Draft players and build a roster around them playing a backup role. Not a bench warmer role. Maybe use the D League to develop them? Maybe let them play real games because the limited practice they get during the season is useless. You don't try to win with players that aren't coming back next year. You don't sign a roster full of players that wouldn't be on a winning team and bury the kids. That's been proven.

Kemba is washed. Randle is over paid. None of this makes any sense. We can't keep doing the same failing process evey year and expect anything good to come of it.

Play the kids and live with the results.period

You make sense but you can’t easily transition from contending , to treadmill , to basically tanking all in the span of 20 games.

That’s the reality . We can put the kids in , build around them but the reality is they are closer to g-league than viable nba starter .
You can’t just say build around that like it’s the answer .

[Deeeez Knicks]

No. This is gibberish. We aren't winning anything. The kids we have watched vets get smacked in the playoffs while they rode the bench. No one learned shyt except they might have helped win a game but we're not allowed to play.

What did anyone learn last year? Nothing. You don't learn shyt sitting in a bench behind bums. Try again.

So your excuse to play the kids is that we’re waving the white flag and admitting we can’t win etc?

Run that one by thibs . It’s a non starter and not realistic. Thibs will play lineup that gives the team the best chance to fulfill whatever his goal is.
Generally that will NEVER include playing rookies on a vet laden roster.



Thibs ain’t no tanking coach , even though he got us in treadmill mode . The kids ain’t gonna get us off That treadmill.

I didn't make an excuse. I stated facts. Kids don't learn how to win riding the bench on a losing team. Fuq Thibs. The kids won the last game we played. Even if they lose...WHILE PLAYING...then they learn. What did losing while sitting on the bench teach them? Nothing. We watched 3 years of kids riding the bench behind scrub vets. What experience did they get? They learned that they could have tried to help but weren't given the chance.

The direction of this team is stupid. No one is trading a star for Burks/Rose/Noel/Taj etc. They will want the kids...then what? We lose again with no youth or picks. Kemba/Fournier?

Competitive losing is not teaching anyone anything. Draft players and build a roster around them playing a backup role. Not a bench warmer role. Maybe use the D League to develop them? Maybe let them play real games because the limited practice they get during the season is useless. You don't try to win with players that aren't coming back next year. You don't sign a roster full of players that wouldn't be on a winning team and bury the kids. That's been proven.

Kemba is washed. Randle is over paid. None of this makes any sense. We can't keep doing the same failing process evey year and expect anything good to come of it.

Play the kids and live with the results.period

They probably give us a better chance to win too

[god shammgod]

So your excuse to play the kids is that we’re waving the white flag and admitting we can’t win etc?

Run that one by thibs . It’s a non starter and not realistic. Thibs will play lineup that gives the team the best chance to fulfill whatever his goal is.
Generally that will NEVER include playing rookies on a vet laden roster.



Thibs ain’t no tanking coach , even though he got us in treadmill mode . The kids ain’t gonna get us off That treadmill.

I didn't make an excuse. I stated facts. Kids don't learn how to win riding the bench on a losing team. Fuq Thibs. The kids won the last game we played. Even if they lose...WHILE PLAYING...then they learn. What did losing while sitting on the bench teach them? Nothing. We watched 3 years of kids riding the bench behind scrub vets. What experience did they get? They learned that they could have tried to help but weren't given the chance.

The direction of this team is stupid. No one is trading a star for Burks/Rose/Noel/Taj etc. They will want the kids...then what? We lose again with no youth or picks. Kemba/Fournier?

Competitive losing is not teaching anyone anything. Draft players and build a roster around them playing a backup role. Not a bench warmer role. Maybe use the D League to develop them? Maybe let them play real games because the limited practice they get during the season is useless. You don't try to win with players that aren't coming back next year. You don't sign a roster full of players that wouldn't be on a winning team and bury the kids. That's been proven.

Kemba is washed. Randle is over paid. None of this makes any sense. We can't keep doing the same failing process evey year and expect anything good to come of it.

Play the kids and live with the results.period

They probably give us a better chance to win too

if i thought they were gonna move some of these guys for picks and that was the play i would understand it more. between taj, noel, rose, burks you could trade 2 for value, still have plenty of vets, and give the kids more minutes in the 2nd half of the year. i think 3 of those guys can get you a late first round pick from a contender, taj maybe not. wouldn't that make more sense for the future of the team ? more of the focus should be there instead of thinking we need a plethora of vets to eek out a few more wins which, as you point out, probably isn't even actually true. we probably will win more with the kids having bigger roles.

[bearadonisdna]

Been thinking about this and I’ve decided wake me once Quickley can get off the bench . Even with 2 point guards out.
Plus we hear about obi obi obi.
The last thing I really care about is the new class .

At best McBride is a 3rd pointguard . Which you only play in emergency situations .
Grimes is a 5th or 6th wing . Do I think they can play sure? But I don’t think they provide more than the guys in front of them , and that’s if they can even tell their elbow from their ass in thibs system .

Edit : was gonna delete this because I realize the rookie and sophomores should be considered the youth . But fuq it man point kinda stands. You guys are actually kinda right . Will it help winning ? Sure . Any type of adjustment shows it will help winning .
Even being depleted is a better adjustment than throwing that dubious lineup every game.

[Kampuchea]

I didn't make an excuse. I stated facts. Kids don't learn how to win riding the bench on a losing team. Fuq Thibs. The kids won the last game we played. Even if they lose...WHILE PLAYING...then they learn. What did losing while sitting on the bench teach them? Nothing. We watched 3 years of kids riding the bench behind scrub vets. What experience did they get? They learned that they could have tried to help but weren't given the chance.

The direction of this team is stupid. No one is trading a star for Burks/Rose/Noel/Taj etc. They will want the kids...then what? We lose again with no youth or picks. Kemba/Fournier?

Competitive losing is not teaching anyone anything. Draft players and build a roster around them playing a backup role. Not a bench warmer role. Maybe use the D League to develop them? Maybe let them play real games because the limited practice they get during the season is useless. You don't try to win with players that aren't coming back next year. You don't sign a roster full of players that wouldn't be on a winning team and bury the kids. That's been proven.

Kemba is washed. Randle is over paid. None of this makes any sense. We can't keep doing the same failing process evey year and expect anything good to come of it.

Play the kids and live with the results.period

They probably give us a better chance to win too

if i thought they were gonna move some of these guys for picks and that was the play i would understand it more. between taj, noel, rose, burks you could trade 2 for value, still have plenty of vets, and give the kids more minutes in the 2nd half of the year. i think 3 of those guys can get you a late first round pick from a contender, taj maybe not. wouldn't that make more sense for the future of the team ? more of the focus should be there instead of thinking we need a plethora of vets to eek out a few more wins which, as you point out, probably isn't even actually true. we probably will win more with the kids having bigger roles.

Trading away Taj, Noel, Rose, Burks will result in us winning more, specifically the last 3? Listen, I find our younger players promising like IQ, Grimes, Simms & Obi....but I don't see those guys you listed as trade-aways as being negative players that removing them makes the Knicks better.

[Deeeez Knicks]

I didn't make an excuse. I stated facts. Kids don't learn how to win riding the bench on a losing team. Fuq Thibs. The kids won the last game we played. Even if they lose...WHILE PLAYING...then they learn. What did losing while sitting on the bench teach them? Nothing. We watched 3 years of kids riding the bench behind scrub vets. What experience did they get? They learned that they could have tried to help but weren't given the chance.

The direction of this team is stupid. No one is trading a star for Burks/Rose/Noel/Taj etc. They will want the kids...then what? We lose again with no youth or picks. Kemba/Fournier?

Competitive losing is not teaching anyone anything. Draft players and build a roster around them playing a backup role. Not a bench warmer role. Maybe use the D League to develop them? Maybe let them play real games because the limited practice they get during the season is useless. You don't try to win with players that aren't coming back next year. You don't sign a roster full of players that wouldn't be on a winning team and bury the kids. That's been proven.

Kemba is washed. Randle is over paid. None of this makes any sense. We can't keep doing the same failing process evey year and expect anything good to come of it.

Play the kids and live with the results.period

They probably give us a better chance to win too

if i thought they were gonna move some of these guys for picks and that was the play i would understand it more. between taj, noel, rose, burks you could trade 2 for value, still have plenty of vets, and give the kids more minutes in the 2nd half of the year. i think 3 of those guys can get you a late first round pick from a contender, taj maybe not. wouldn't that make more sense for the future of the team ? more of the focus should be there instead of thinking we need a plethora of vets to eek out a few more wins which, as you point out, probably isn't even actually true. we probably will win more with the kids having bigger roles.

They have too many vets that need to play so it throws off the balance especially when they could use more defense. It would make sense to trade some if we can, but not expecting the Knicks to be sellers. Rose/Burks may bring the most back, but also they are playing too well or too important for the Knicks to move.

Fournier is probably the guy they need to move if they can. If they only move him it would clear up more minutes for IQ and Grimes. Obi is a tough one cause its mostly Randle blocking his minutes.

[bearadonisdna]

Last thought here before I go into spectator mode for a while , the treadmill got me dizzy
Think about development and what we’ve seen from obi and quickley .
Year 1 to year 2 and all of us are ready to move on to them . But what if the development process is only half way through . We calling up guys before their proverbial all star season . ( baseball analogy)



In my experience I’ve never seen the exponential growth from 1 year to the next from a thibs drafted prospects. That can be a huge silver lining and something that other thib led teams never got.

[dakomish23]

Shut capella down and completely dominated Ayton

And he's still not 100%

He never dominated Ayton not a day in his life

Capella had 16 pts and 21 rebs and was a +7, much much better than any game he had against us in the playoffs. Mitch 2 pts 11 reb and -5.

His highest scoring game in the playoffs was 14 and most rebs was 15. He scored 4 and 9 in the 2 games nerlens started

He was a +8 / +15 / +19 / +21 against use in the 4 Ws in the playoffs

But sure, him having 2 more pts with almost double the FGA and him grabbing his own misses for offensive rebounds since he couldn’t score over Mitch means “much better”.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Capella destroyed us in the playoffs.

[robillionaire]

He never dominated Ayton not a day in his life

Capella had 16 pts and 21 rebs and was a +7, much much better than any game he had against us in the playoffs. Mitch 2 pts 11 reb and -5.

His highest scoring game in the playoffs was 14 and most rebs was 15. He scored 4 and 9 in the 2 games nerlens started

He was a +8 / +15 / +19 / +21 against use in the 4 Ws in the playoffs

But sure, him having 2 more pts with almost double the FGA and him grabbing his own misses for offensive rebounds since he couldn’t score over Mitch means “much better”.

There was no single game where he scored 16 points or anywhere close to 21 rebs . In the loss he was a -4, the last 3 games he was facing off against taj gibson

16 of his rebounds were defense rebounds and that alone would have been a series high, only 5 of them were offense rebounds, very few were him gathering his own miss

he had no single game as good as this in the playoffs and I see no indication that he was stopped in any meaningful way

[robillionaire]

Capella destroyed us in the playoffs.

He was a team high +7 in this game and the Hawks were -16 when he wasn’t on the court (gallinari was the backup and was -16) so thankfully he didn’t play more

Mitch -5 was the 2nd worst on the team besides Fournier, thankfully Jericho came in and was +14 and we won by that exact differential 9 points

Thank you Jericho

[Deeeez Knicks]

Capella destroyed us in the playoffs.

He was a team high +7 in this game and the Hawks were -16 when he wasn’t on the court (gallinari was the backup and was -16) so thankfully he didn’t play more

Mitch -5 was the 2nd worst on the team besides Fournier, thankfully Jericho came in and was +14 and we won by that exact differential 9 points

Thank you Jericho

Thank you RJ as well. Game high +18

[dakomish23]

Capella had 16 pts and 21 rebs and was a +7, much much better than any game he had against us in the playoffs. Mitch 2 pts 11 reb and -5.

His highest scoring game in the playoffs was 14 and most rebs was 15. He scored 4 and 9 in the 2 games nerlens started

He was a +8 / +15 / +19 / +21 against use in the 4 Ws in the playoffs

But sure, him having 2 more pts with almost double the FGA and him grabbing his own misses for offensive rebounds since he couldn’t score over Mitch means “much better”.

There was no single game where he scored 16 points or anywhere close to 21 rebs . In the loss he was a -4, the last 3 games he was facing off against taj gibson

16 of his rebounds were defense rebounds and that alone would have been a series high, only 5 of them were offense rebounds, very few were him gathering his own miss

he had no single game as good as this in the playoffs and I see no indication that he was stopped in any meaningful way

14 pts on almost half the FGA.

You used the +/- stat and they were all better in the playoff Ws, sometimes double or triple the number.

Context matters so I’m providing that. I don’t think Mitch dominated him. I just know Mitch didn’t get dominated like Noel did in the playoffs. -3 / -14 / - 3 / -15 / +1

[dakomish23]

Capella destroyed us in the playoffs.

Decimated us.

[dakomish23]

Last thought here before I go into spectator mode for a while , the treadmill got me dizzy
Think about development and what we’ve seen from obi and quickley .
Year 1 to year 2 and all of us are ready to move on to them . But what if the development process is only half way through . We calling up guys before their proverbial all star season . ( baseball analogy)



In my experience I’ve never seen the exponential growth from 1 year to the next from a thibs drafted prospects. That can be a huge silver lining and something that other thib led teams never got.

As long as the kids are active members of the rotation I’m placated for now. Beauty of hitting on draft picks is they’re under your control for a while, so you can bring them along slower if your team is winning.

What’s infuriating are all those wasted years when we sucked and we still didn’t play the kids. All we did was ruin our lottery slot

[Gravy]

Nah.. Knox, Frank, Trier, Dotson, DSJ etc. all got plenty of minutes to see that they sucked. The only guy that was actually good was KP and he played until he got hurt.

[robillionaire]

He was a +8 / +15 / +19 / +21 against use in the 4 Ws in the playoffs

But sure, him having 2 more pts with almost double the FGA and him grabbing his own misses for offensive rebounds since he couldn’t score over Mitch means “much better”.

There was no single game where he scored 16 points or anywhere close to 21 rebs . In the loss he was a -4, the last 3 games he was facing off against taj gibson

16 of his rebounds were defense rebounds and that alone would have been a series high, only 5 of them were offense rebounds, very few were him gathering his own miss

he had no single game as good as this in the playoffs and I see no indication that he was stopped in any meaningful way

14 pts on almost half the FGA.

You used the +/- stat and they were all better in the playoff Ws, sometimes double or triple the number.

Context matters so I’m providing that. I don’t think Mitch dominated him. I just know Mitch didn’t get dominated like Noel did in the playoffs. -3 / -14 / - 3 / -15 / +1

The context does matter which is why I’m pointing out that that is a game the Knicks won by 9 and despite that capela was a team high +7 and Mitch was a team 2nd worst -5 i think in the single game context it’s worth mentioning

But removing the context from the playoff games, like in the game he was a +1 we lost by 14 which was the 2nd highest on the team, in the game he was -3 we lost by 11 so it was also one of the higher ones on the team, you’d expect players to have a negative +\- in games that we lost in blowouts, and that’s aside from the fact nerlens didn’t even start those last 3 games so wasn’t matched up against capela most the time and also that he had an ankle injury in game 2

My main point is not to praise nerlens performance in the playoffs because he was overall a negative just like the entire team was in that series, just to say that in this game I think capela played at minimum just as good as he did in that playoff series and probably better based on his individual stats as well as how each team performed with their starting center on the court vs off