2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 5) -LOTTO 8/25 DRAFT 10/15!

[Worst_to_First]

Aytons suspension and injuries prevented that but when he came back they blew out Dallas by 29 points and their starting lineup has the best net rating in the league Next year you will see lol

I remember that game. Booker was running circles around Doncic.

Yep and Ayton made KP look like Bargnani Oubre was torching them too. Suns are gonna be big time soon. Love their core

Am jealous of the Suns. They have a potentially dominant big and wing combo, a savvy vet PG and a good coach. Future of that team is bright.

Just a year ago though if you look at their board their fans were in a state of despair. They told me that they were jealous of us given that we were going to get KD and Kyrie along with our top pick.

Makes me hopeful though that a few bounces here and their we could turn things around too perhaps more quickly than we expect.

[Zenzibar]

I guess it's just people that do believe in his talent just like you don't believe in it, but that's just them assuming he'll be a good NBA player by what they've seen of him and believe he'll grow into because many of these kids are gonna get better as they grow and some aren't but nobody will know until it's actually seen. He could end up a big fat dud or he could end up finding a great fit for him and become a good/great player. Lets just hope that if we draft him it's the latter.

I'd rather hope we don't draft him and let somebody else spend time developing him. We got one big with limited offense, drafting another especially with a lotto pick doesn't make much sense. If they want to gamble on a big like that with a later pick then fine but we gotta aim higher with our lotto pick. If we really needed a big like him then I can understand but we don't we really don't need him. If we want to take a big with that lotto pick then it needs to be somebody who is brining more offensive versatility from day one, you can have those same improvement expectations from a player that is coming in with better tools already and then hope he keeps getting even better with those tools he currently has. A project big makes absolutely no sense for the Knicks right now, none!

Can't say you don't make a lot of sense here but i'm just not sold on Toppin which is how Onyeka's name even came out in this conversation. I love Toppin's athleticism and think his shooting will be alright but i want players that play defense. Like i've already said multiple times, i wanna build this team the way the Jazz and Heat build their teams which is with multiple defenders but not that play only defense but also have offensive games. I'm a huge Jimmy Butler fan and when everyone was on here only talking about KD and Kyrie during free agency i was talking about Kawhi and Butler.

Want to jump into this conversatin a minute. Talking development:
1.) Obi Toppin is not a teenager and already amongst the strong in his class, pretty much ready to bang with the big boys.

2.) Is without question easily and not close, the very best offensive machine in the draft. Better than; Edwards, LaMelo, Tyrese, Wiseman and Cole, in regards to dominating on offense.
______

That his defense is lagging? Yes. This part of his game, with defensive minded coaches, can be corrected by pushing him to read schemes better, play more aware in regards to his angles on defense, etc. There are many many college players that have been drafted that didn't know how to play defense at first. In any event, Obi just needs to be slightly below average to make an decisive + impact. The #1 offensive force in the NCAA and abroad.

The Knicks have a very nice defensive core already in RJ, Mitch and Frank. What we need is a bonifide scorer, who has the athleticism and skills to score at will, against everyone cept the elite NBA defensive elite, i.e the Kwahiis . ..Obi is that.

Lastly, don't let Rose's subtle hint that he's looking for a forward that can score from the outside negate Obi, who already shoots very well from 3 and will only get better with reps.

I when I read about a player's possible future offensive development, as if we need more kids to teach how to shoot.

[Worst_to_First]

Yep and Ayton made KP look like Bargnani Oubre was torching them too. Suns are gonna be big time soon. Love their core

Who you like with their pick? I think they can go in a number of directions but personally I would love to see a guy like Haliburton there, he'd be such a perfect fit. They can even take Obi if they move up and that would add a whole different dynamic. If they could somehow add both

Definitely think Haliburton is a perfect fit there. Would be a great glue guy on that team. I also like Precious Achiuwa on that team cause he can be a nasty defender at the 4 and stretch the floor. Toppin would be insane but idk if they can get him.

They should do something like this

Haliburton
Booker
Mikal
Milsap or Gallinari
Ayton

Then you have Rubio Oubre and Baynes leading the bench mob. Oubre would be a 6th man of the year candidate under this scenario.

A Suns fan told me that James Jones is not really that keen on building through the draft anymore (perhaps unless they leap frog in the lottery) and would rather look at more seasoned and vet players.

If we only had the assets and made smarter FA decisions their pick is actually one that could be made available in trades. I heard before they were high on Frank though.

[Zenzibar]

Who you like with their pick? I think they can go in a number of directions but personally I would love to see a guy like Haliburton there, he'd be such a perfect fit. They can even take Obi if they move up and that would add a whole different dynamic. If they could somehow add both

Definitely think Haliburton is a perfect fit there. Would be a great glue guy on that team. I also like Precious Achiuwa on that team cause he can be a nasty defender at the 4 and stretch the floor. Toppin would be insane but idk if they can get him.

They should do something like this

Haliburton
Booker
Mikal
Milsap or Gallinari
Ayton

Then you have Rubio Oubre and Baynes leading the bench mob. Oubre would be a 6th man of the year candidate under this scenario.

A Suns fan told me that James Jones is not really that keen on building through the draft anymore (perhaps unless they leap frog in the lottery) and would rather look at more seasoned and vet players.

If we only had the assets and made smarter FA decisions their pick is actually one that could be made available in trades. I heard before they were high on Frank though.

Ironicly, we're the only fanbase that doesn''t value Frank highly.

[aggo]

Definitely think Haliburton is a perfect fit there. Would be a great glue guy on that team. I also like Precious Achiuwa on that team cause he can be a nasty defender at the 4 and stretch the floor. Toppin would be insane but idk if they can get him.

They should do something like this

Haliburton
Booker
Mikal
Milsap or Gallinari
Ayton

Then you have Rubio Oubre and Baynes leading the bench mob. Oubre would be a 6th man of the year candidate under this scenario.

A Suns fan told me that James Jones is not really that keen on building through the draft anymore (perhaps unless they leap frog in the lottery) and would rather look at more seasoned and vet players.

If we only had the assets and made smarter FA decisions their pick is actually one that could be made available in trades. I heard before they were high on Frank though.

Ironicly, we're the only fanbase that doesn''t value Frank highly.

Frank sucks because winning teams score and you can't have a guy playing 30mpg that doesnt score in this league.

Unless he plays with GS or Lebron.

[darmani]

i mean I'll give a little bit of pass to lavine because the bulls are bad and Lauri had a bad year.

BUt the suns have no excuse to be bad. Booker, Ayton had a really good year, Oubre was good, Bridges/Rubio/Baynes are solid role players. There is no reason memphis is a 500 taem and the Suns are 13 games under if you just look at from a talent perspective.

And if Booker wants to be considered one of the best players he simply needs to start winning more.

I mean look at the Suns roster and the Utah roster...can you honestly tell me if you consider Mitch and Booker a wash. Does utah really have that much better of a roster?

I think its because Utah's best player has more of an impact than the suns best player.

Ayton was out for majority of the season and there was a lot of injuries on that team. That’s why they lost a lot of games. Their starting lineup still has the best net rating in the league. Pretty impressive considering that their the youngest team in the whole league. They just need to stay healthy and improve their bench. This same Suns team blew out Utah by 20 points. If Ayton never got suspended and hurt they would def be an 8th seed team or better. They played like a 43 win team with him on the court.

Utah has always been one of the best ran franchises in the league since before Mitchell got there. Literally won 51 games the season before they drafted him. Let’s not act like he’s carrying them and he’s the only reason why their winning. Dude has a great roster around him and is playing for one of the best coaches in the league. Mitchell is really good but he choked hard in the playoffs last year too. He is in the same tier as Booker and LaVine for me.

They were 14-21 without ayton (40% winning %)
They were 12-18 with ayton (40% winning %)

Its not a specific knock on booker or lavine types. They are good players. But there is a reason that young guys like Mitchell and Tatum win more games. They are more well rounded players.

That's pure nonsense.

Suns advanced stats:
Booker on court: 113.7 OffRtg, 112.5 DefRtg, +1.2 NetRtg
Booker off court: 98.7 OffRtg, 104.1 DefRtg, -5.4 NetRtg

Jazz advanced stats:
Mitchell on court: 111.5 OffRtg, 109.0 DefRtg, +2.5 NetRtg
Mitchell off court: 106.6 OffRtg, 100.8 DefRtg, +5.9 NetRtg

Bulls advanced stats:
LaVine on court: 106.8 OffRtg, 111.1 DefRtg, -4.4 NetRtg
LaVine off court: 101.1 OffRtg, 101.2 DefRtg, -0.2 NetRtg

The Suns offense drop from what would be the #2 offense in the NBA to 5.7 pts per 100 possessions below league's worst offense. Booker, Mitchell and LaVine all have similarly bad influence on their team's defense but the Suns are 6.6 pts better overall with Booker on the court, the Jazz are 3.4 pts worse with Mitchell on the court and the Bulls are 4.2 pts worse with LaVine on the court.

The Suns bad record (but still much better than a year ago) is mostly due to Ayton's suspension, awful bench, injuries to Rubio, Ayton, Oubre, Baynes, Kaminsky and Cam and bad luck in close games (2-8 record in games decided by 3 or less points).

For the season the Suns have the same point differential as Memphis and New Orleans and better than Portland, San Antonio and Sacramento. By Pythagorean record the Suns should have 4 more wins than where they actually are.

When everyone was healthy and available our starting lineup was dominant.

[darmani]

Who you like with their pick? I think they can go in a number of directions but personally I would love to see a guy like Haliburton there, he'd be such a perfect fit. They can even take Obi if they move up and that would add a whole different dynamic. If they could somehow add both

Definitely think Haliburton is a perfect fit there. Would be a great glue guy on that team. I also like Precious Achiuwa on that team cause he can be a nasty defender at the 4 and stretch the floor. Toppin would be insane but idk if they can get him.

They should do something like this

Haliburton
Booker
Mikal
Milsap or Gallinari
Ayton

Then you have Rubio Oubre and Baynes leading the bench mob. Oubre would be a 6th man of the year candidate under this scenario.

A Suns fan told me that James Jones is not really that keen on building through the draft anymore (perhaps unless they leap frog in the lottery) and would rather look at more seasoned and vet players.

If we only had the assets and made smarter FA decisions their pick is actually one that could be made available in trades. I heard before they were high on Frank though.

The guy who supposedly was high on Ntilikina was fired a while ago. At the deadline in 2018 when McDonough was still the GM the Suns offered a 2nd round pick for Ntilikina but at the end settled for Elfrid from the Magic.

[Thepaintismine]

A Suns fan told me that James Jones is not really that keen on building through the draft anymore (perhaps unless they leap frog in the lottery) and would rather look at more seasoned and vet players.

If we only had the assets and made smarter FA decisions their pick is actually one that could be made available in trades. I heard before they were high on Frank though.

Ironicly, we're the only fanbase that doesn''t value Frank highly.

Frank sucks because winning teams score and you can't have a guy playing 30mpg that doesnt score in this league.

Unless he plays with GS or Lebron.

Frank getting betta and betta. I don't want him going no where.
He only needs to be a 12-15 point scorer and I think that is around the corner.

[newyorker4ever]

There's nothing wrong with that approach but then we gotta scrap the whole "youth and development" plan. Those teams are built on experience not youth. Their success comes from having older vets who have been in the league and played in big games and are experienced enough to know how to win. I have no issue with the Knicks building a playoff team as long as it's not too costly to do it and we still have a good enough core to keep building on over time.

The Jazz are built with R.Gobert, D.Mitchell, J.Ingles and R.O'Neale as 4 of their starting 5 players who all came in through the draft or were picked up as UDFA's.

Gobert is 28 and been in the league for a while now
Ingles is 32
Oneal is 26 and he's a fringe starter. Meh
Mike Conley is 32
Bogdanovic is 31
Ed Davis is 30
Jordan Clarkson is 27

And the Jazz have been built for multiple years and Gobert, Mitchell, Ingles and O'Neale have all been a big part of that. Well maybe not O'Neale cause he just broke out within the last 2 years but this team didn't just become good this year. I'm not gonna make this a back and forth cause it seems like something pretty stupid to go back and forth on but the Jazz have 100% counted on the draft to become a good team.

[newyorker4ever]

I agree that Booker and Mitchell aren't in differnt tiers. I was just suggesting if I had the choice I would go with Mitchell over Booker if I am given the choice because he's a bit more versitle of a player.

You also can't get on Mitchell for being the best player on a playoff team when Booker hasn't even won 30 games in a season before in his NBA career.

Young players do usually struggle in the post season early in there careers because its a different animal. I wont hold it against Mitchell or Tatum struggling a bit in the post season when they are consistently getting to the most season. Eventually they will need to take there team to the next level. But they are already the best player on a playoff team.

I would rather have that then the best player on a team that doesn't win 30 games.

Now that doesn't mean I wouldn't acquire Booker if I had the chance, I would. If given the choice I would prefer Mitchell.

I don’t really have a preference between them 3 and would love for the Knicks to have someone of their caliber but imo I think you’re being a bit harsh on Booker given the circumstances he was placed in. I strongly believe that if Booker was on the Jazz, the narrative surrounding him would be much different. Mitchell was already placed into a great situation when he got drafted. It is not like he turned that team around like Carmelo did on the Nuggets when he got drafted. Still, Mitchell deserves a lot of credit for being the best player on a playoff team, but again he didn’t turn a losing team into a winning one. Instead they are winning about the same games they did before he got there.

thats a fair take. But when is it time to get on Booker for not winning. Is it next year if they don't make the playoffs?

I think we all agree Ayton took a big step. They have talent. At some point that does need to translate to wins.

The time to get on Booker for being a great player, really shooter, is now and actually the last couple of years and i have been doing that. The kid is an absolute great shooter/scorer in the NBA and has been since he's been in the league but he doesn't make the players on the court with him better and the Suns have had good young talent for a while now since he's been there. Look at someone like what Ja Morant did for Memphis who wasn't winning before Ja and just one year of Ja and now they're the 8th seed in a very strong western conference. The Suns need a leader and if they got one at PG to go with Booker and Ayton and all the other young talent they have then they would take that next step. Booker would need to be grown and let that PG be the leader to though. He would need to be Steph Curry's Klay Thompson.

[mpharris36]

They were 14-21 without ayton (40% winning %)
They were 12-18 with ayton (40% winning %)

Its not a specific knock on booker or lavine types. They are good players. But there is a reason that young guys like Mitchell and Tatum win more games. They are more well rounded players.

That's pure nonsense.

Suns advanced stats:
Booker on court: 113.7 OffRtg, 112.5 DefRtg, +1.2 NetRtg
Booker off court: 98.7 OffRtg, 104.1 DefRtg, -5.4 NetRtg

Jazz advanced stats:
Mitchell on court: 111.5 OffRtg, 109.0 DefRtg, +2.5 NetRtg
Mitchell off court: 106.6 OffRtg, 100.8 DefRtg, +5.9 NetRtg

Bulls advanced stats:
LaVine on court: 106.8 OffRtg, 111.1 DefRtg, -4.4 NetRtg
LaVine off court: 101.1 OffRtg, 101.2 DefRtg, -0.2 NetRtg

The Suns offense drop from what would be the #2 offense in the NBA to 5.7 pts per 100 possessions below league's worst offense. Booker, Mitchell and LaVine all have similarly bad influence on their team's defense but the Suns are 6.6 pts better overall with Booker on the court, the Jazz are 3.4 pts worse with Mitchell on the court and the Bulls are 4.2 pts worse with LaVine on the court.

The Suns bad record (but still much better than a year ago) is mostly due to Ayton's suspension, awful bench, injuries to Rubio, Ayton, Oubre, Baynes, Kaminsky and Cam and bad luck in close games (2-8 record in games decided by 3 or less points).

For the season the Suns have the same point differential as Memphis and New Orleans and better than Portland, San Antonio and Sacramento. By Pythagorean record the Suns should have 4 more wins than where they actually are.

When everyone was healthy and available our starting lineup was dominant.

I don't think you are understanding the stat fully. What I think the ON/OFF split shows is that the Jazz have a deeper team then the other 3. Which Melo pionted out and I agree with. They had a better built team from the beginning.

However, the Jazz are winning the game vs "starters" when Mitchell leaves the court. The jazz have good depth so there bench is good but that doesn't reflect on if booker is better than Mitchell that just means that the Jazz are a deeper team than the Suns.

Mitchell has the best Net rating out of all 3 of the guys ON the court. +2.5 vs (+1.2 with booker and -4.4 for lavine).

So what that tells me is both Mitchell and Booker were productive in there lineups and Lavine (who i believe is a notch below both and his impact on the game isn't as great). But you can't knock mitchell because his team built a good bench.

IMO you can never knock a starter playing good minutes that has a positive NET rating because there is more competition they are playing with on a nightly basis.

But like I said before its time to win for PHX. Next year needs to be the year. They have talent, now they need to win and make the playofffs if they don't what is the end goal there?

[newyorker4ever]

Ironicly, we're the only fanbase that doesn''t value Frank highly.

Frank sucks because winning teams score and you can't have a guy playing 30mpg that doesnt score in this league.

Unless he plays with GS or Lebron.

Frank getting betta and betta. I don't want him going no where.
He only needs to be a 12-15 point scorer and I think that is around the corner.

I'm with you. Maybe a lot of Knicks fans don't value Frank but some of us do value him and i hope we keep him. The only way i'm trading Frank is if he's part of a package for a true star player and even then i'm hoping they don't include Frank.

[HEZI]

The Jazz are built with R.Gobert, D.Mitchell, J.Ingles and R.O'Neale as 4 of their starting 5 players who all came in through the draft or were picked up as UDFA's.

Gobert is 28 and been in the league for a while now
Ingles is 32
Oneal is 26 and he's a fringe starter. Meh
Mike Conley is 32
Bogdanovic is 31
Ed Davis is 30
Jordan Clarkson is 27

And the Jazz have been built for multiple years and Gobert, Mitchell, Ingles and O'Neale have all been a big part of that. Well maybe not O'Neale cause he just broke out within the last 2 years but this team didn't just become good this year. I'm not gonna make this a back and forth cause it seems like something pretty stupid to go back and forth on but the Jazz have 100% counted on the draft to become a good team.

If by counting on the draft you mean not tanking or relying on a top lotto pick to find talent in the draft and not only targeting 19 year old prospects in the draft but going after players that fit what they want to do, yes I agree

[Deeeez Knicks]

I really like Vassell. He is more of a "safe" pick, but would be a really nice player to add to our core if we are not sold on any of the pgs left.

[Zenzibar]

Frank sucks because winning teams score and you can't have a guy playing 30mpg that doesnt score in this league.

Unless he plays with GS or Lebron.

Frank getting betta and betta. I don't want him going no where.
He only needs to be a 12-15 point scorer and I think that is around the corner.

I'm with you. Maybe a lot of Knicks fans don't value Frank but some of us do value him and i hope we keep him. The only way i'm trading Frank is if he's part of a package for a true star player and even then i'm hoping they don't include Frank.

Count me too. Frank's my guy.

[3toheadmelo]

I really like Vassell. He is more of a "safe" pick, but would be a really nice player to add to our core if we are not sold on any of the pgs left.

He’s like Mikal but can create a little more. Would still pass on him and go for a higher upside pick

[Deeeez Knicks]

I really like Vassell. He is more of a "safe" pick, but would be a really nice player to add to our core if we are not sold on any of the pgs left.

He’s like Mikal but can create a little more. Would still pass on him and go for a higher upside pick

Yea, chances are he's more of a role/glue player. Worst case thats not a bad thing to have. You never know with upside either. He could be one of those players that improves a lot. Sometimes those defensive/3d players are the ones that end up with upside. We could be sleeping on him as an option.

[3toheadmelo]

I really like Vassell. He is more of a "safe" pick, but would be a really nice player to add to our core if we are not sold on any of the pgs left.

He’s like Mikal but can create a little more. Would still pass on him and go for a higher upside pick

Yea, chances are he's more of a role/glue player. Worst case thats not a bad thing to have. You never know with upside either. He could be one of those players that improves a lot. Sometimes those defensive/3d players are the ones that end up with upside. We could be sleeping on him as an option.

I hear you but like 98% of these 3 and D players don’t turn out to be much. If we traded down, I would take a shot at Cole Anthony instead of Vassell. I think Cole has a lot more upside. And I am not even a big Cole fan lol

[Deeeez Knicks]

He’s like Mikal but can create a little more. Would still pass on him and go for a higher upside pick

Yea, chances are he's more of a role/glue player. Worst case thats not a bad thing to have. You never know with upside either. He could be one of those players that improves a lot. Sometimes those defensive/3d players are the ones that end up with upside. We could be sleeping on him as an option.

I hear you but like 98% of these 3 and D players don’t turn out to be much. If we traded down, I would take a shot at Cole Anthony instead of Vassell. I think Cole has a lot more upside. And I am not even a big Cole fan lol

Yea, i think Cole still has some upside. Hes the one guy i keep going back and forth on and really don't know.

Most likely Vassell might just end up being a solid player/role player. If we end with a solid player anyway, hes not a bad one to have since he looks like a 2 way player that can help space the floor. Overall, i def prefer a high upside guy, just not crazy about some of the high upsde options if we are picking around 8 or 9.

[newyorker4ever]

Gobert is 28 and been in the league for a while now
Ingles is 32
Oneal is 26 and he's a fringe starter. Meh
Mike Conley is 32
Bogdanovic is 31
Ed Davis is 30
Jordan Clarkson is 27

And the Jazz have been built for multiple years and Gobert, Mitchell, Ingles and O'Neale have all been a big part of that. Well maybe not O'Neale cause he just broke out within the last 2 years but this team didn't just become good this year. I'm not gonna make this a back and forth cause it seems like something pretty stupid to go back and forth on but the Jazz have 100% counted on the draft to become a good team.

If by counting on the draft you mean not tanking or relying on a top lotto pick to find talent in the draft and not only targeting 19 year old prospects in the draft but going after players that fit what they want to do, yes I agree

Your original statement was that those teams (Jazz and Heat) were built on experience not youth and all i was saying was that the Jazz has built through the draft with youth but of course has also added vets over the years as well cause you don't build good/great teams without adding vets. Even GSW added vets to their big 3 that they got through the draft in Curry, Klay and Dray.

My point still stands that i want to build this Knicks team like the Jazz and Heat have with players who play defense. I don't care if we do it through the draft or just vets to tell the truth, as long as we have at least 2-3 of our starting 5 that play hard defense to go with their offensive games and then have a couple 3-D guys that can come in the game when needed and lock down one of the other teams top scorers and hit the 3 ball.

Defense Defense Defense