BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani

[Context]

I love Jonas but he is a rookie never playing at high level in his career, his stats in his first NBA season are: 9PPG and 6 RPG. Good stats but not so impressive. Bosh in your mind is a center? Andrea is not a center. Andrea played 6 years in the NBA without a real center in the roster and a single season (with double injuries to his elbow) with a rookie one. What are you speaking about?

Jonas's play improved as the year went on, yet Bargs rebounding didn't.

Anyway, I'm confused to what you're trying to prove. If you're trying to say Bargs rebounding is due to him never playing with a true C, I'm sorry but that's wrong.

.
I never said that Bargnani is a good rebounder. He is not and never will be. But he can score efficently not being the center and the focal player of the team's offensive system. Miami was the worst NBA team on rebounding. Is it so important? Andrea can create shots and points. This was the real NY problem in the playoffs.

People take these "averages too seriously" they act like Bargs can't have games where he grabs 7, 8, 9 boards... Tyson has had 20 rebound games before not to mention Melo can rebound as well. Players have strengths and weakness. Melo, Bargs and Tyson will just have to sit down and discuss a game plan regarding rebounds. And all of a sudden many of you forget that JR and Shump can have 10 rebound games as well. Bargs doesn't have to even average 7 rebounds for us to win. As someone pointed out both the Spurs and Miami were in the bottom 5 in rebounding. Yet, they made it to the finals..

[ORANGEandBLUE]

No, not really.

Cousins, Monroe, Bledsoe, Favors, Vasquez, Wall, and Paul George are RFA.

Lebron, Bosh, Wade, and (God forbid) Melo can be UFA.

Knicks could have had around 8m in cap space if they didn't go after Bargs. That would be enough to at least negotiate a S&T for any of the FA's.

In 2014? No way in hell

[strangespot]

Please, he just had a few good games. That doesn't change how he has no motivation to grab rebounds or play help defense.

As for getting healthy, when you're 7ft and already have injury history, especially with a calf, it's not that easy. I doubt Bargs will make it to 60 games this year.

whats a few good games ? in the past 7 years, the reason why Raptor fans were so divided about about him in the first place was because he always alternated stretches of games where he played good to great (i.e. he played at an all-star level in 2011/2012 before he got injured) with stretches where he basically was a non factor.

[JustaKnickFan]

Please, he just had a few good games. That doesn't change how he has no motivation to grab rebounds or play help defense.

As for getting healthy, when you're 7ft and already have injury history, especially with a calf, it's not that easy. I doubt Bargs will make it to 60 games this year.

whats a few good games ? in the past 7 years, the reason why Raptor fans were so divided about about him in the first place was because he always alternated stretches of games where he played good to great (i.e. he played at an all-star level in 2011/2012 before he got injured) with stretches where he basically was a non factor.

His bad games GREATLY outnumber his good. I'm sure Raptors fans would agree with that. By the end, the general consensus was that Bargs was a net negative for the team.

[JustaKnickFan]

I love Jonas but he is a rookie never playing at high level in his career, his stats in his first NBA season are: 9PPG and 6 RPG. Good stats but not so impressive. Bosh in your mind is a center? Andrea is not a center. Andrea played 6 years in the NBA without a real center in the roster and a single season (with double injuries to his elbow) with a rookie one. What are you speaking about?

Jonas's play improved as the year went on, yet Bargs rebounding didn't.

Anyway, I'm confused to what you're trying to prove. If you're trying to say Bargs rebounding is due to him never playing with a true C, I'm sorry but that's wrong.

I never said that Bargnani is a good rebounder. He is not and never will be. But he can score efficently not being the center and the focal player of the team's offensive system. Miami was the worst NBA team on rebounding. Is it so important? Andrea can create shots and points. This was the real NY problem in the playoffs.

The real problem was rebounding. The Pacers offense thrived off rebounding, and the Knicks couldn't catch a break.

The only game the Knicks beat the Pacers in was the one they won the rebounding battle in. NY has plenty of guys that can shoot, they don't need Bargs for that.

[JustaKnickFan]

the heat buddies all have options, if they opt out it will be to resign with the heat.

all the RFA are what their name implies, restricted... ie. we're not getting them.

There's a chance any of them can decline, you never know what can happen in one season.

For restricted free agents, it doesn't mean we're not getting them. All the Knicks have to do is give a FA an offer where the GM can't match. Lin was a restricted free agent, but that didn't stop him from being restricted to other teams

an offer they don't want to match, not can't match. we could have matched lin but chose not to because it was a poison pill and overall he wasn't worth it.

most of the guys you mentioned are worth rookie max deals which means the team would match it. it's not impossible but unlikely that we'd be able to get any of those guys.

Knicks can negotiate S&T's with plenty of the guys mentioned. Phoenix may not be so hot on Bledsoe, Detroit already has Drummond, Hornets have Jrue (don't need Vasquez), and the Kings Cousins situation is iffy.

[NY2TheBay]

There's a chance any of them can decline, you never know what can happen in one season.

For restricted free agents, it doesn't mean we're not getting them. All the Knicks have to do is give a FA an offer where the GM can't match. Lin was a restricted free agent, but that didn't stop him from being restricted to other teams

an offer they don't want to match, not can't match. we could have matched lin but chose not to because it was a poison pill and overall he wasn't worth it.

most of the guys you mentioned are worth rookie max deals which means the team would match it. it's not impossible but unlikely that we'd be able to get any of those guys.

Knicks can negotiate S&T's with plenty of the guys mentioned. Phoenix may not be so hot on Bledsoe, Detroit already has Drummond, Hornets have Jrue (don't need Vasquez), and the Kings Cousins situation is iffy.

they dont need vasquez, thats why he was traded to kings.

[JustaKnickFan]

an offer they don't want to match, not can't match. we could have matched lin but chose not to because it was a poison pill and overall he wasn't worth it.

most of the guys you mentioned are worth rookie max deals which means the team would match it. it's not impossible but unlikely that we'd be able to get any of those guys.

Knicks can negotiate S&T's with plenty of the guys mentioned. Phoenix may not be so hot on Bledsoe, Detroit already has Drummond, Hornets have Jrue (don't need Vasquez), and the Kings Cousins situation is iffy.

they dont need vasquez, thats why he was traded to kings.

Oh, forgot about that.

There's still the other scenarios I listed, though.

[BKAY]

Any word on what number Bargnani will be wearing?

[suicidedeuce]

However, Melo's getting older and the 2014 FA class >>>> 2015 FA class.

is this based on lebron opting out? anyways even if we were able to dump amare/novak/camby we still don't have enough to sign a max contract. especially now that we signed JR.

No, not really.

Cousins, Monroe, Bledsoe, Favors, Vasquez, Wall, and Paul George are RFA.

Lebron, Bosh, Wade, and (God forbid) Melo can be UFA.

Knicks could have had around 8m in cap space if they didn't go after Bargs. That would be enough to at least negotiate a S&T for any of the FA's.

Huh?

Knicks have $78m committed in salary in '14-15. There would be FAR way from having any cap space with or without Bargnani. His addition DOES free up cap space in '15-16.

Whomever is under the impression that Knicks will have ANY capspace before Melo/Stat/Chandler (and now Bargnani) expires simply doesn't understand the Knicks cap situation.

[StephNYKurry]

is this based on lebron opting out? anyways even if we were able to dump amare/novak/camby we still don't have enough to sign a max contract. especially now that we signed JR.

No, not really.

Cousins, Monroe, Bledsoe, Favors, Vasquez, Wall, and Paul George are RFA.

Lebron, Bosh, Wade, and (God forbid) Melo can be UFA.

Knicks could have had around 8m in cap space if they didn't go after Bargs. That would be enough to at least negotiate a S&T for any of the FA's.

Huh?

Knicks have $78m committed in salary in '14-15. There would be FAR way from having any cap space with or without Bargnani. His addition DOES free up cap space in '15-16.

Whomever is under the impression that Knicks will have ANY capspace before Melo/Stat/Chandler (and now Bargnani) expires simply doesn't understand the Knicks cap situation.

Those expirings could still allow us to trade for a big time piece even as soon as this upcoming February.

[JustaKnickFan]

is this based on lebron opting out? anyways even if we were able to dump amare/novak/camby we still don't have enough to sign a max contract. especially now that we signed JR.

No, not really.

Cousins, Monroe, Bledsoe, Favors, Vasquez, Wall, and Paul George are RFA.

Lebron, Bosh, Wade, and (God forbid) Melo can be UFA.

Knicks could have had around 8m in cap space if they didn't go after Bargs. That would be enough to at least negotiate a S&T for any of the FA's.

Huh?

Knicks have $78m committed in salary in '14-15. There would be FAR way from having any cap space with or without Bargnani. His addition DOES free up cap space in '15-16.

Whomever is under the impression that Knicks will have ANY capspace before Melo/Stat/Chandler (and now Bargnani) expires simply doesn't understand the Knicks cap situation.

My point was, that instead of wasting picks on Bargs, those picks and another first can be used to clear around 25m in cap space like the Warriors did.

25m would bring them under salary cap and able to do sign and trades

[suicidedeuce]

No, not really.

Cousins, Monroe, Bledsoe, Favors, Vasquez, Wall, and Paul George are RFA.

Lebron, Bosh, Wade, and (God forbid) Melo can be UFA.

Knicks could have had around 8m in cap space if they didn't go after Bargs. That would be enough to at least negotiate a S&T for any of the FA's.

Huh?

Knicks have $78m committed in salary in '14-15. There would be FAR way from having any cap space with or without Bargnani. His addition DOES free up cap space in '15-16.

Whomever is under the impression that Knicks will have ANY capspace before Melo/Stat/Chandler (and now Bargnani) expires simply doesn't understand the Knicks cap situation.

My point was, that instead of wasting picks on Bargs, those picks and another first can be used to clear around 25m in cap space like the Warriors did.

25m would bring them under salary cap and able to do sign and trades

You're suggesting the allure of a 2016 first rounder, which we know will be the higher of the KNicks OR Denver's picks, a 2018 first and some seconds will DEFINITELY allow the Knicks to pawn off Stoudemire and other players?

And this is all being done simply to have the ability to make sign and trade deals?

[JustaKnickFan]

Huh?

Knicks have $78m committed in salary in '14-15. There would be FAR way from having any cap space with or without Bargnani. His addition DOES free up cap space in '15-16.

Whomever is under the impression that Knicks will have ANY capspace before Melo/Stat/Chandler (and now Bargnani) expires simply doesn't understand the Knicks cap situation.

My point was, that instead of wasting picks on Bargs, those picks and another first can be used to clear around 25m in cap space like the Warriors did.

25m would bring them under salary cap and able to do sign and trades

You're suggesting the allure of a 2016 first rounder, which we know will be the higher of the KNicks OR Denver's picks, a 2018 first and some seconds will DEFINITELY allow the Knicks to pawn off Stoudemire and other players?

And this is all being done simply to have the ability to make sign and trade deals?

Worked for GSW with their expirings.

[suicidedeuce]

Worked for GSW with their expirings.

Doesn't mean you strategize for that scenario a year in advance.

That deal may well have been a fluke. Utah happened to be sitting on a ton of free and clear cap space and GS was sitting in a 2014 first rounder.

Yes, it happened, but because it happened once doesn't mean the likelihood of it happening again is high.

Not even mentioning the fact that what GS got out of it was Igoudala.

The other half of this scenario is actually completing a worthwhile deal AFTER all the machination to create the option to make one, and that's no lock either.

You're stringing together EXTREMELY long odds that every facet of the strategy comes to pass, which doesn't make it much of a strategy at all.

[JustaKnickFan]

Worked for GSW with their expirings.

Doesn't mean you strategize for that scenario a year in advance.

That deal may well have been a fluke. Utah happened to be sitting on a ton of free and clear cap space and GS was sitting in a 2014 first rounder.

Yes, it happened, but because it happened once doesn't mean the likelihood of it happening again is high.

Not even mentioning the fact that what GS got out of it was Igoudala.

The other half of this scenario is actually completing a worthwhile deal AFTER all the machination to create the option to make one, and that's no lock either.

You're stringing together EXTREMELY long odds that every facet of the strategy comes to pass, which doesn't make it much of a strategy at all.

All I'm trying to prove is that picks are very valuable.

And no, it's not a fluke. There are plenty of young teams with cap space in the league. These teams don't want to waste cap space on players that will land them the 9th seed, so they look to absorb bad deals and claim picks. Earlier this year Cleveland got a first for taking on some cap space from the Grizz.

So yeah, the whole trading picks = cap space theory isn't a far-out kind of one.

[malik959]

Aaaaa a lot of these Raptor fans sound like us. I can't stand being on these boards when we lose because we down our players. Lose a game and people have their pitch forks and torches ready saying that the coach needs to be fired and Melo needs to be traded. One day your ready to get rid of JR and the next your saying that the Knicks wouldn't be a 50 win team without him.We know the positives and negatives of each player on this team and they actually compliment each other. Barg cant rebound, Tyson can't score on his own. Shump isn't a shooter, Melo is. We now have 3 people that can take over at any given moment and it takes a lot of weight off of Melo.

[nykballa2k4]

Here is the issue. Let's say we wanted to take a year off and re-tool when big contracts expire and there is no one good willing to come in. We have nothing to tank for.

The bigger issue to me though is that draft picks are essentially our only trade chip. If, say, we wanted to get Elton Brand in a sign and trade, we could have used a non-guaranteed contract and 2nd round picks (currency) to obtain him at a slightly larger contract. Being that we can trade the 2016 pick, that means we have 2015 and 2017. If we had not traded away our only pick in 2016, we would become eligible to trade 2015/2017 picks after the 2014 draft. This is important since after 2014, our assets would have been looking good (expiring contracts, THjr, 2 first round picks) and that off-season we could have been poised to make a serious re-load and add on significant talent.

Now we basically are in treadmill mode unless Amare gets knees and Bargnani gets heart. As a Knick fan, I had the same hopes in the early 2000's when we had Allan Houston on his contract and Tim Thomas newly acquired. We were bounced in the first round and we had some ifs. Marbury was going to be great, that was a given, but Houston had to rehab those knees, and Tim Thomas just had to give a damn.

Let me remind you this story ends with the following names: Sweetney, Lampe, Vranes, Williams, Balkman, Collins, Robinson, Frye, Lee, Ariza (in no particular order)

So next up: after 2016, we max extend an older beat up Melo, and trade every asset for a center with no cajones and a love of buffets.

we have our pick in 2015. the 2016 pick had very little value because denver owns the rights to swap. 2nd round picks are 2nd round picks, almost worthless.

we also would have never been allowed to trade the 2015 pick regardless, because we traded the '14 pick a long time ago. can't trade picks in back to back years. trading the '16 pick had no bearing on our ability to trade the '15 pick. you are however correct about the '17 pick. i actually like it better that we're not allowed to trade it.

Once the 2014 pick is made, should we have no debits (not the case anymore), we may then AT THAT POINT trade future picks. Lakers used to do this quite frequently. They would trade the first rounder of that season for a minor upgrade somewhere ie Ramon Sessions and the following season make another similar deal.

[strangespot]

Please, he just had a few good games. That doesn't change how he has no motivation to grab rebounds or play help defense.

As for getting healthy, when you're 7ft and already have injury history, especially with a calf, it's not that easy. I doubt Bargs will make it to 60 games this year.

whats a few good games ? in the past 7 years, the reason why Raptor fans were so divided about about him in the first place was because he always alternated stretches of games where he played good to great (i.e. he played at an all-star level in 2011/2012 before he got injured) with stretches where he basically was a non factor.

His bad games GREATLY outnumber his good. I'm sure Raptors fans would agree with that. By the end, the general consensus was that Bargs was a net negative for the team.

His whole NBA career he played in a bad to very bad team, he played 35 mpg.... the last couple years he was the only legit scorer they had. chances are you're going to be a net negative.

I am not saying he is a great player or an all-star btw. but he's not a scrub either and a chance of scenery might work wonders sometimes.

[Kakapato]

His bad games GREATLY outnumber his good. I'm sure Raptors fans would agree with that. By the end, the general consensus was that Bargs was a net negative for the team.

I think you put too much faith in the opinion of a bunch of uneducated fans and some stat nerds.
He's lazy... he has an awful work ethic... that's BS! If he was like that then he would not have played for tough coaches as Messina and Blatt (guys tougher than most of NBA coaches).

By some canadian fans' opinion he was accountable for the lack of development of the young guys and because of him good players want not to play for Toronto, but also he was hated in the locker room and generally he was a cancer for the team.

I can add that bad weather was his fault too...