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PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus

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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#481 » by moocow007 » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:01 pm

Blue Ninja wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
Blue Ninja wrote:It's crazy how some of you actually compare Phil to the past decade of suck. If Phil leaves tomorrow, the franchise will be in 100x better shape than it ever was under Layden, IT, Walsh and Grunwald.

We have things we never had before. We have a great cap situation. We have a great rookie. We have a superstar. We have some other good valuable assets. We have no albatrosses or big deficiencies.

Yes, our head coaching situation leaves a lot to be desired. Yes, our depth is one of the worst in the league. Everything can't be fixed right away. The hard part was already done. Phil has reset this team in terms of assets and put us in a healthy situation going forward.


But we have not be placed into great cap situation by Phil Jackson. And we do have both albatrosses and big deficiencies.

The skyrocketing cap isn't due to Phil Jackson's moves, it's due to the NBA increasing the salary cap. Would have applied and been available to any GM. The majority of teams in the NBA will have significant cap space...and that doesn't mean that we should applaud every one of those teams GM's.

If anything Jackson's moves have put a mini choke hold on the Knicks cap, both for this past off season and potentially for the upcoming off season. Calderon's $7.5 million contract is locked in through next season. Afflalo and Williams combined $12.5 million also could become locked in (their option, not team option). Kyle O'Quinn (currently 1 of 7 PF' son the team) is another $4 million of of cap space locked into someone that is not used and don't project to have much use. Even Robin Lopez, a fine role player that would ideally be someone you add AFTER you have established your foundation/core and looking to make an impact in the playoffs, potentially can be viewed as excessive use of the cap (and he counts $13.2 million against the cap this off season).


What are the big deficiencies and albatrosses that Phil put us in for the future?


Deficiencies -- have we been watching the same back court all season?

Albatrosses -- Calderon (OBVIOUSLY), O'Quinn (yes, every $4 million counts and O'Quinn is looking more and more like a black Santa Claus every single day), Lopez (again, this may be debatable but the reality is that at this point, barring a miracle Lopez will be at the end of his contract before this team can become a team that could actually have benefited from his contributions.

No, we aren't getting an extreme amount of cap space because of what Phil has done, but he has managed the cap very well, with the league wide expectation of the cap increases. The Lopez contract looks like a bargain next year. It was market price this year.


But he hasn't managed the cap well.

Calderon's contract prevented him from having a max salary cap slot this past offseason. Now that may not have been too too bad since there weren't many max guys, but it still is $7.5 million ADDITIONAL that he could have tried to use to get someone else better than...well...the crap he had. And it was clear that Calderon was crap (he admitted it late last season himself that Calderon was a mistake).

Giving Williams and Afflalo player options was just silly. He'd have been better off excluding options. And before anyone says "but they could have gotten better offers elsewhere", Williams has been a bust for the most part and Afflalo has looked like crap the last 2 seasons. The chances that either guy had "better offers" is extremely unlikely. So now what you have is the unfavorable situation where if the players suck they will squat on your cap this upcoming off season but if they do well, they will either leave or force you to eat up even more cap space to retain them. It's why most GM's would rarely if ever offer "player options". It's worse than no options.

The Lopez contract relative to where this team is at is the problem. If we already had our core player established (we don't and definitely not at the time of the singing) then yes, signing him to try to "push you over the top" would make sense. But with this roster (remember, no indication that Porzingis would be anywhere near as good nor that Anthony would adjust like he has to being a more complete player) consuming large chunks of cap space on role players isn't a good thing. You want evidence? Just check back to Scott Layden and how he locked himself out of a lot of upper tear talent by locking up so many role players due to him misreading how good the team was or where they were at. Same thing happening here.

He has us with many more future assets than what we had when he took the job. That's undeniable and something I've posted here before.


Name them.

He has Porzingis. That's it.

Not trading the 2018 1st round pick is again, and again, and again...the "hey at least he's not as bad as Isiah Thomas" argument. That's again, not necessarily a good thing. It's like me telling a 400lb person "hey at least you're not 500lbs" and expecting them to take it as a compliment.

Cap space? He has less cap space than he could have.

What else does he have? He traded away all the remaining 2nd round picks he had through 2020 so it can't be that.

The one bad player acquisition move has been Calderon. Any rational mind will admit to that.

Afflalo and Williams would be GREAT 1 year contracts and worth at the very least a dump type trade, in a league where everyone has cap space. I hope they opt in so we can have two more assets.


? Hope and would is not proof that they are good deals. Player options are not good deals for the team. It's the worst possible option unless you are dealing with JR Smith or Javale McGee or Nick Young (and even Young knows that you go for the money).

Our bench is one of our biggest holes in this team (other than guard defense and PG), so O'Quinn is a nice cheap depth. I don't mind him at all, as long as there is a coach to get him to stop shooting terrible shots.


A player that is not necessary and unused and has looked like a fat piece of poop is NOT "cheap". Our bench isn't the problem. Our lack of guard depth is the problem. Not sure why you are either trying to skirt around it or not seeing it. If O'Quinn was a guard then sure, cheap depth, nice. But he's one of 7 power forwards on this team. $4.4 million is a waste of money. And "as long as a coach gets him to stop shooting terrible shots" is another wishful thinking argument.

I disagree on Rolo. When the cap is going to bounce up like it was, you get Rolo on his contract so you can have a great cheap asset. He also helps Porzingis and Melo take less wear and tear. Just a very good all around asset for our team.


Again, Lopez would have been fine IF the team was already further along in their evolutionary ladder than they currently are. To lock in $13.2 million on Lopez (a role player) is dubios from my point of view. If he can be traded, then sure.
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#482 » by HerSports85 » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:03 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
HerSports85 wrote:
Knicksfan1992 wrote:The same guys that want to rebuild wanted Phil to apparently build a team that was really good this year. Can't have it both ways fellas.


lol I just want a clear direction. Phil is the one trying to hae it both ways.


you can't tank with no draft pick. That isn't Phil fault. Maybe the full on rebuild happens next year when we have our full compliment of picks...


i agree. so what are we doing then? Can't tell me Phil didn't think this team would be in the playoffs and sold Melo on that. Like you said, we have no draft pick .. so what's the next move? Are we rebuilding or trying to compete next year or does it really depend on this off season.

From phil mouth and actions, I don't think a rebuild through the draft was the plan. We sucked last year, and fortunately got KP. I do applaud Phil for seeing last years team was not what he thought and made a few trades. This team is not what he thought and he fired Fisher. So what's next?

As far as Melo the reason I want him traded if we can't get talent in the offseason is because it's a bad look for the organization. Players was telling him to leave NY and come play with them during Allstar break .. not the other way around. Players see that we are unable to surround Melo with talent, and regardless of the facts (he forced his way) no one really cares about that. We will be known as the place where superstars don't want to go.
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#483 » by dakomish23 » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:05 pm

Knicks Bycke wrote:in phil i trust, even if im in the minority now.


I'm with this guy. What is the opposite of hoodwinked and was it the name of an animated movie so I can put the movie poster as my signature?
Jimmit79 wrote:Yea RJ played well he was definitely the x factor


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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#484 » by mpharris36 » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:05 pm

HerSports85 wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
HerSports85 wrote:
lol I just want a clear direction. Phil is the one trying to hae it both ways.


you can't tank with no draft pick. That isn't Phil fault. Maybe the full on rebuild happens next year when we have our full compliment of picks...


i agree. so what are we doing then? Can't tell me Phil didn't think this team wouldn't be in the playoffs and sold Melo on that. Like you said, we have no draft pick .. so what's the next move? Are we rebuilding or trying to compete next year or does it really depend on this off season.

From phil mouth and actions, I don't think a rebuild through the draft was the plan. We sucked last year, and fortunately got KP. I do applaud Phil for seeing last years team was not what he thought and made a few trades. This team is not what he thought and he fired Fisher. So what's next?

As far as Melo the reason I want him traded if we can't get talent in the offseason is because it's a bad look for the organization. Players was telling him to leave NY and come play with them during Allstar break .. not the other way around. Players see that we are unable to surround Melo with talent, and regardless of the facts (he forced his way) no one really cares about that. We will be known as the place where superstars don't want to go.


why can't you have two different directions. At one point the knicks were 22-22 and playing really good basketball (looked to be a playoff team). Then Melo's injury happened. So through 44 games Phil might have thought we were a playoff team because we were playing like one. Then Melo got hurt and we went into the ****.

I think Phil has kept next year open. Try to attract a major free agent in the offseason. If he can't do that he can always work with Melo on possibly waiving his NTC and rebuild. I see nothing wrong with both those directions. One is becoming more clearer than the other over the past month or so.
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#485 » by BKlutch » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:09 pm

mpharris36 wrote:[tweet]https://twitter.com/IanBegley/status/705069237581185024[/tweet]

hopefully its wroten

Where is it written Wroten?
.

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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#486 » by Blue Ninja » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:15 pm

moocow007 wrote:Deficiencies -- have we been watching the same back court all season?

Albatrosses -- Calderon (OBVIOUSLY), O'Quinn (yes, every $4 million counts and O'Quinn is looking more and more like a black Santa Claus every single day), Lopez (again, this may be debatable but the reality is that at this point, barring a miracle Lopez will be at the end of his contract before this team can become a team that could actually have benefited from his contributions.


Again future deficiencies. I never imagined this team would be able to fix all of it deficiencies for this year.

Albatrosses - Calderon for one year left is not an albatross. You have to be kidding with Lopez and O'Quinn right?

But he hasn't managed the cap well.

Calderon's contract prevented him from having a max salary cap slot this past offseason. Now that may not have been too too bad since there weren't many max guys, but it still is $7.5 million ADDITIONAL that he could have tried to use to get someone else better than...well...the crap he had. And it was clear that Calderon was crap (he admitted it late last season himself that Calderon was a mistake).


It would've been 3M in extra cap and not enough for a max contract I believe. You're not factoring in Felton. That is a mistake on Phil's part. One I've harped on also.

Giving Williams and Afflalo player options was just silly. He'd have been better off excluding options. And before anyone says "but they could have gotten better offers elsewhere", Williams has been a bust for the most part and Afflalo has looked like crap the last 2 seasons. The chances that either guy had "better offers" is extremely unlikely. So now what you have is the unfavorable situation where if the players suck they will squat on your cap this upcoming off season but if they do well, they will either leave or force you to eat up even more cap space to retain them. It's why most GM's would rarely if ever offer "player options". It's worse than no options.


All assumptions. No team makes a move they don't have to. The player options were the cost of acquisition. For their money, they have been well worth their contract. Williams being a bust, makes it more impressive that Phil had a vision for him, and he has contributed at times this season, before being played around with his minutes.

The Lopez contract relative to where this team is at is the problem. If we already had our core player established (we don't and definitely not at the time of the singing) then yes, signing him to try to "push you over the top" would make sense. But with this roster (remember, no indication that Porzingis would be anywhere near as good nor that Anthony would adjust like he has to being a more complete player) consuming large chunks of cap space on role players isn't a good thing. You want evidence? Just check back to Scott Layden and how he locked himself out of a lot of upper tear talent by locking up so many role players due to him misreading how good the team was or where they were at. Same thing happening here.


He isn't an overpaid role player. He's a good starter, with a lot of value relative to what he is paid going forward. This is how you acquire assets via free agency, while not hurting your current team.


Name them.

He has Porzingis. That's it.

Not trading the 2018 1st round pick is again, and again, and again...the "hey at least he's not as bad as Isiah Thomas" argument. That's again, not necessarily a good thing. It's like me telling a 400lb person "hey at least you're not 500lbs" and expecting them to take it as a compliment.

Cap space? He has less cap space than he could have.

What else does he have? He traded away all the remaining 2nd round picks he had through 2020 so it can't be that.


When Phil got the job (right after the season):
Carmelo Anthony - 1 year
Andrea Bargnani - 1 year
Tyson Chandler - 1 year
Raymond Felton - 3 year deal
Tim Hardaway Jr. - 3 year/RFA
Pablo Prigioni - 1 year
Iman Shumpert - 1 year/RFA
Shannon Brown - 1 year deal
J.R. Smith SG - 2 year deal
Amar'e Stoudemire - 1 year deal
Jeremy Tyler - 1 year/RFA
2014 1st round pick
2014 2nd round pick
2015 2nd round pick
2016 1st round pick
2016 2nd round pick
2017 2nd round pick

NO CAP ROOM

This offseason;
Carmelo Anthony - 2 years/PO
Jose Calderon - 1 year
Cleanthony Early - RFA
Langston Galloway - RFA
Jerian Grant - 3 years/RFA
Robin Lopez - 3 years

Kyle O'Quinn - 2 years/PO
Kristaps Porzingis - 3 years
2017 2nd round pick
2018 2nd round pick
2019 2nd round pick
2019 2nd round pick

2019 2nd round pick
2020 2nd round pick
2021 2nd round pick

rights to Willy Hernangomez
with around 30M in cap space.



Key:
Blue - Long Term Asset
Red - Liability
Black - Insignificant


? Hope and would is not proof that they are good deals. Player options are not good deals for the team. It's the worst possible option unless you are dealing with JR Smith or Javale McGee or Nick Young (and even Young knows that you go for the money).


Player options are a good option, when you're getting two players below market value for year one, and assets (unless major injury) year 2. That's what this was.


A player that is not necessary and unused and has looked like a fat piece of poop is NOT "cheap". Our bench isn't the problem. Our lack of guard depth is the problem. Not sure why you are either trying to skirt around it or not seeing it. If O'Quinn was a guard then sure, cheap depth, nice. But he's one of 7 power forwards on this team. $4.4 million is a waste of money. And "as long as a coach gets him to stop shooting terrible shots" is another wishful thinking argument.


That's all good, but fully just your opinion on the player. From his position, to his play, to everything really.

Again, Lopez would have been fine IF the team was already further along in their evolutionary ladder than they currently are. To lock in $13.2 million on Lopez (a role player) is dubios from my point of view. If he can be traded, then sure.


Do you really think that Lopez isn't tradable?
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#487 » by NOOB77 » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:16 pm

Here is my question about Phil Jackson and the job he has done.

After this season is over including the draft has Phil Jackson really improved the future of the Knicks? Everyone mistake from previous GMs are gone.

From the looks of it he has hit on KP. But other than that has he done anything to help the Knicks? Who is to say another GM wouldn't have picked KP any way?

Say we had no GM and draft KP but never made a move or trade and just let all our contracts expire like JR like Tyson like Shump wouldn't we be in the same exact position we are now? Phil shouldn't get praise for basically doing nothing because if we had no GM we would arguable be in a better position for the future as we wouldn't be stuck with Calderon.
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#488 » by SelbyCobra » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:19 pm

Is it more sad or funny that the Knicks current state is best summarized by cheesy 70's/80's soft rock?

At times I'd like to break you
And drive you to your knees
At times I'd like to break through
And hold you endlessly
At times I understand you
And I know how hard you try
I've watched while love commands you
And I've watched love pass you by
At times I think we're drifters
Still searching for a friend
A brother or a sister
But then the passion flares again
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#489 » by HerSports85 » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:19 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
HerSports85 wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
you can't tank with no draft pick. That isn't Phil fault. Maybe the full on rebuild happens next year when we have our full compliment of picks...


i agree. so what are we doing then? Can't tell me Phil didn't think this team wouldn't be in the playoffs and sold Melo on that. Like you said, we have no draft pick .. so what's the next move? Are we rebuilding or trying to compete next year or does it really depend on this off season.

From phil mouth and actions, I don't think a rebuild through the draft was the plan. We sucked last year, and fortunately got KP. I do applaud Phil for seeing last years team was not what he thought and made a few trades. This team is not what he thought and he fired Fisher. So what's next?

As far as Melo the reason I want him traded if we can't get talent in the offseason is because it's a bad look for the organization. Players was telling him to leave NY and come play with them during Allstar break .. not the other way around. Players see that we are unable to surround Melo with talent, and regardless of the facts (he forced his way) no one really cares about that. We will be known as the place where superstars don't want to go.


why can't you have two different directions. At one point the knicks were 22-22 and playing really good basketball (looked to be a playoff team). Then Melo's injury happened. So through 44 games Phil might have thought we were a playoff team because we were playing like one. Then Melo got hurt and we went into the ****.

I think Phil has kept next year open. Try to attract a major free agent in the offseason. If he can't do that he can always work with Melo on possibly waiving his NTC and rebuild. I see nothing wrong with both those directions. One is becoming more clearer than the other over the past month or so.


I see it that way too. So don't fans have a right to complain if we all (Players , Phil, Dolan, fans) were thinking at least 8th seed. Remember before the season, AA said all Melo talked about was playoffs this year. Fisher was fired because of it. But some posters are saying .. well you can't be mad because we are rebuilding. that's not true. I will be happy with a rebuild but that's not what we seen or was told. Look how Rambis is coaching .. this team is looking desperate. Instead of trying to get better next year, we are running melo in the ground and sitting Grant ass on the bench.

But I do see the good. So i'm kind of satisfied until next year. But if we tear it down, and tank .. doesn't that mean Phil failed with his signings and coaching decisions.. including Melo?

I'm just saying I see both sides of the argument and fans on this board basically want the same thing .. we just don't agree on how we're getting there. It will be clear this summer though.
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#490 » by mpharris36 » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:22 pm

NYKfan77 wrote:Here is my question about Phil Jackson and the job he has done.

After this season is over including the draft has Phil Jackson really improved the future of the Knicks? Everyone mistake from previous GMs are gone.

From the looks of it he has hit on KP. But other than that has he done anything to help the Knicks? Who is to say another GM wouldn't have picked KP any way?

Say we had no GM and draft KP but never made a move or trade and just let all our contracts expire like JR like Tyson like Shump wouldn't we be in the same exact position we are now? Phil shouldn't get praise for basically doing nothing because if we had no GM we would arguable be in a better position for the future as we wouldn't be stuck with Calderon.


The other GM because he doesn't have Phil cache'. Might have been pressured by Melo, management, and fans to trade the pick for bledsoe and trey lyles something along those lines. And where would be right now?
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#491 » by Blue Ninja » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:22 pm

NYKfan77 wrote:Here is my question about Phil Jackson and the job he has done.

After this season is over including the draft has Phil Jackson really improved the future of the Knicks? Everyone mistake from previous GMs are gone.

From the looks of it he has hit on KP. But other than that has he done anything to help the Knicks? Who is to say another GM wouldn't have picked KP any way?

Say we had no GM and draft KP but never made a move or trade and just let all our contracts expire like JR like Tyson like Shump wouldn't we be in the same exact position we are now? Phil shouldn't get praise for basically doing nothing because if we had no GM we would arguable be in a better position for the future as we wouldn't be stuck with Calderon.


Maybe the other GM wouldn't have even tanked. Maybe he would've traded our 2018 1st round pick and Tyson Chandler for a marginal player. There's so many what ifs. Let's just deal with facts. Phil got us assets in Rolo, Porzingis, Melo, Galloway, Grant, Hernangomez, cap space, etc and kept our future stable.
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#492 » by NOOB77 » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:28 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:Here is my question about Phil Jackson and the job he has done.

After this season is over including the draft has Phil Jackson really improved the future of the Knicks? Everyone mistake from previous GMs are gone.

From the looks of it he has hit on KP. But other than that has he done anything to help the Knicks? Who is to say another GM wouldn't have picked KP any way?

Say we had no GM and draft KP but never made a move or trade and just let all our contracts expire like JR like Tyson like Shump wouldn't we be in the same exact position we are now? Phil shouldn't get praise for basically doing nothing because if we had no GM we would arguable be in a better position for the future as we wouldn't be stuck with Calderon.


The other GM because he doesn't have Phil cache'. Might have been pressured by Melo, management, and fans to trade the pick for bledsoe and trey lyles something along those lines. And where would be right now?


"MIGHT" Point is Phil has really done anything good besides not doing anything at all.
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#493 » by NOOB77 » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:29 pm

Blue Ninja wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:Here is my question about Phil Jackson and the job he has done.

After this season is over including the draft has Phil Jackson really improved the future of the Knicks? Everyone mistake from previous GMs are gone.

From the looks of it he has hit on KP. But other than that has he done anything to help the Knicks? Who is to say another GM wouldn't have picked KP any way?

Say we had no GM and draft KP but never made a move or trade and just let all our contracts expire like JR like Tyson like Shump wouldn't we be in the same exact position we are now? Phil shouldn't get praise for basically doing nothing because if we had no GM we would arguable be in a better position for the future as we wouldn't be stuck with Calderon.


Maybe the other GM wouldn't have even tanked. Maybe he would've traded our 2018 1st round pick and Tyson Chandler for a marginal player. There's so many what ifs. Let's just deal with facts. Phil got us assets in Rolo, Porzingis, Melo, Galloway, Grant, Hernangomez, cap space, etc and kept our future stable.



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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#494 » by Fury » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:32 pm

Our team sucks ass, but we're in a position to improve it which is a good thing. Lots of teams are treadmill teams. We still have hope.
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#495 » by GONYK » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:33 pm

NYKfan77 wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:Here is my question about Phil Jackson and the job he has done.

After this season is over including the draft has Phil Jackson really improved the future of the Knicks? Everyone mistake from previous GMs are gone.

From the looks of it he has hit on KP. But other than that has he done anything to help the Knicks? Who is to say another GM wouldn't have picked KP any way?

Say we had no GM and draft KP but never made a move or trade and just let all our contracts expire like JR like Tyson like Shump wouldn't we be in the same exact position we are now? Phil shouldn't get praise for basically doing nothing because if we had no GM we would arguable be in a better position for the future as we wouldn't be stuck with Calderon.


The other GM because he doesn't have Phil cache'. Might have been pressured by Melo, management, and fans to trade the pick for bledsoe and trey lyles something along those lines. And where would be right now?


"MIGHT" Point is Phil has really done anything good besides not doing anything at all.


Is your argument that Phil has been neutral (if we're willing to entirely discount the drafting of KP)?
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#496 » by GONYK » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:34 pm

Fury wrote:Our team sucks ass, but we're in a position to improve it which is a good thing. Lots of teams are treadmill teams. We still have hope.


Our team sucks, yes, but not this bad. It's being coached worse than it is.

I think there is talent here for ~35 wins
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#497 » by mpharris36 » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:35 pm

NYKfan77 wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:Here is my question about Phil Jackson and the job he has done.

After this season is over including the draft has Phil Jackson really improved the future of the Knicks? Everyone mistake from previous GMs are gone.

From the looks of it he has hit on KP. But other than that has he done anything to help the Knicks? Who is to say another GM wouldn't have picked KP any way?

Say we had no GM and draft KP but never made a move or trade and just let all our contracts expire like JR like Tyson like Shump wouldn't we be in the same exact position we are now? Phil shouldn't get praise for basically doing nothing because if we had no GM we would arguable be in a better position for the future as we wouldn't be stuck with Calderon.


The other GM because he doesn't have Phil cache'. Might have been pressured by Melo, management, and fans to trade the pick for bledsoe and trey lyles something along those lines. And where would be right now?


"MIGHT" Point is Phil has really done anything good besides not doing anything at all.


wait you were the one bringing up the scenario of another GM doing the exact same thing as Phil. So you want to bring up another GM putting us in a similar are better situation than Phil but wont acknowledge that the GM could have put us in a far worst place than Phil has?

hmmmmm seems about right...
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#498 » by Fury » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:39 pm

GONYK wrote:
Fury wrote:Our team sucks ass, but we're in a position to improve it which is a good thing. Lots of teams are treadmill teams. We still have hope.


Our team sucks, yes, but not this bad. It's being coached worse than it is.

I think there is talent here for ~35 wins


I still think there's some talent, too.
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#499 » by NOOB77 » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:40 pm

GONYK wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:
The other GM because he doesn't have Phil cache'. Might have been pressured by Melo, management, and fans to trade the pick for bledsoe and trey lyles something along those lines. And where would be right now?


"MIGHT" Point is Phil has really done anything good besides not doing anything at all.


Is your argument that Phil has been neutral (if we're willing to entirely discount the drafting of KP)?



Well if we play the MIGHT or MAYBE game....Maybe the GM besides Phil drafts KP also?

Actually I think positives Phil has done is:
Draft KP
Get Melo to stay
Rolo on decent contract

Negatives
Melo NTC
Calderons contract
Fisher hire


Other than that he hasn't done much. THjr for a pick was a solid move. Using the Pick on Grant seems to be a wash at this point. See how Grant develops if he plays.

My initial point is if had YOU has a GM instead of Phil and you did NO moves except draft KP. We as a franchise would be in a better place going forward as we wouldn't have Calderon's contract and all other contracts Tyson, Shump, JR would have expired. So beyond this season Phil has done nothing to really improve our future besides getting lucky and hitting on a draft pick.
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Re: PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus 

Post#500 » by GONYK » Wed Mar 2, 2016 6:43 pm

NYKfan77 wrote:
GONYK wrote:
NYKfan77 wrote:
"MIGHT" Point is Phil has really done anything good besides not doing anything at all.


Is your argument that Phil has been neutral (if we're willing to entirely discount the drafting of KP)?



Well if we play the MIGHT or MAYBE game....Maybe the GM besides Phil drafts KP also?

Actually I think positives Phil has done is:
Draft KP
Get Melo to stay
Rolo on decent contract

Negatives
Melo NTC
Calderons contract
Fisher hire


Other than that he hasn't done much. THjr for a pick was a solid move. Using the Pick on Grant seems to be a wash at this point. See how Grant develops if he plays.

My initial point is if had YOU has a GM instead of Phil and you did NO moves except draft KP. We as a franchise would be in a better place going forward as we wouldn't have Calderon's contract and all other contracts Tyson, Shump, JR would have expired. So beyond this season Phil has done nothing to really improve our future besides getting lucky and hitting on a draft pick.


That's not really true though, because we would have won more games with Tyson, Ray, JR, and Shump and may not have been in the position at all to draft KP.

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