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Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players

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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#481 » by Deeeez Knicks » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:33 pm

Nazrmohamed wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
i really like lonzo but we need guards and wings who can penetrate AND shoot from distance. it's a tall order, but those are the kinds of players we should be targeting in FA/draft/trade.

we're better off getting a star scoring/slashing wing than a PG who can't get to the rim (or can get to the rim and nothing else).

for me that makes kawhi the dream (even with injury concerns i take that risk at top dollar). or a PG who is able to use scoring pressure to help with facilitation. lonzo's court vision and passing are great, but they help us most in transition with his current skill set. we might continue to struggle with needing to manufacture tough buckets if we add him. trying to see how he helps.

kemba walker's skill set is perfect, but i am immensely concerned with his ability going forward. if i believed he'd hold up, i'd dig into the pick war chest to get him off of OKC, ideally after having added more guard/wing talent. at that point i'd rather give chris paul his last meal and target a trade.


I agree that I would take a star wing over Ball. But where are we getting that player and when? That player is tough to get and may not be available right now

I also don't think Ball stops us from getting a star wing. He even fits in well with that plan....If we bring in a star wing slasher, then we probably need a PG like Ball who can play off the ball some, defend, be a great passer, and at least be capable of being a secondary passer, bringing the ball up. We could sign Ball and still possibly free up almost $40mil in '22. Or maybe use him as a trade chip.

Kemba I will pass on given his age and contract. A few years ago he would have been a great pickup but I dont like how he is trending down.


Rather than choose why not do both. Granted there aren't really ANY stars in this yrs FA. Or at least none that'll move. Let's hang up that Kawhi pipe dream. But honestly I think a PG would make a huge difference and I think you wait and figure out what to do with the wing via trade maybe halfway through the season. But I don't think penetration is the reason for this offense looking like it does. I think it's the shooting and pace setting. We do everything in the halfcourt. I'd like to see a guard who looks ahead after the rebound and creates uptempo. A guy who RJ would thrive with getting some easy baskets. All a penetrators gonna do is put RJ and Randle at the 3pt line and take turns with them on offense.


That's the way i see it. It wouldn't be just Lonzo. You can add Lonzo then still have room and flexibility to bring in other pieces...even possibly a max in due time.
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#482 » by Deeeez Knicks » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:50 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:The Pelicans would rather Zion runs the pick-and-roll than Lonzo.

If that doesn't tell you (not you) how inept he is at the point guard position, I don't know what to say.

He's a rich man's Frank, who's not a point guard either.

These dead horses need to be beaten back to life and then back to death forever.


Frequency as pick n roll ball handler:
Lonzo: 23.8%
Zion: 13.8%

Lonzo was actually good scoring in the pick n roll in the 69th percentile, shooting 45%. Def needs to try to be more aggressive and who knows if that happens.

And Pelicans are right in trying to put the ball in Zions hands more cause he is a beast.

Their frequency changed dramatically as the season went along. I wasn't able to use a time period filter to check the stats for the last two months of the season, unfortunately.

Lonzo not being able to weaponize the pick-and-roll with Zion - as evidenced by their lack of success - is an indictment against him considering Zion's gravity.

It's interesting (and encouraging) that he scores fairly well in the PNR. However, % isn't everything if he passes out most of the time. That's where his efficiency doesn't match the eye test.

It's the 3P% argument all over again where we're comparing RJ hitting spot-up 3s at 40% and Trae hitting mostly pull-ups at 34%. Those figures don't necessarily mean that RJ's the better shooter.


RJ still shoots the ball well, even if he's not Trae Young. Ball isn't Zion either but he still does a lot of things on the floor. That is where expectations and comparisons to star players can be a little unfair.

It is going back to what I said earlier though where a lot of teams best players/#1 scorers are basically running the team and defacto Pg. Zion is a beast so you want the ball in his hands.

Lonzo still has his limitations no doubt. He's not Lilliard or Trae...but he's also not Frank, Bullock or Payton either. He does some other things those guys can't do. Also, I like that he has gotten better every year. Zion also loves playing with Lonzo and always says great things about him.

I mean, if we are looking at the Pelicans, a lot of there issues are on the defensive end, mainly with Zion and others being a big liability.
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#483 » by Jeff Van Gully » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:51 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Nazrmohamed wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
I agree that I would take a star wing over Ball. But where are we getting that player and when? That player is tough to get and may not be available right now

I also don't think Ball stops us from getting a star wing. He even fits in well with that plan....If we bring in a star wing slasher, then we probably need a PG like Ball who can play off the ball some, defend, be a great passer, and at least be capable of being a secondary passer, bringing the ball up. We could sign Ball and still possibly free up almost $40mil in '22. Or maybe use him as a trade chip.

Kemba I will pass on given his age and contract. A few years ago he would have been a great pickup but I dont like how he is trending down.


Rather than choose why not do both. Granted there aren't really ANY stars in this yrs FA. Or at least none that'll move. Let's hang up that Kawhi pipe dream. But honestly I think a PG would make a huge difference and I think you wait and figure out what to do with the wing via trade maybe halfway through the season. But I don't think penetration is the reason for this offense looking like it does. I think it's the shooting and pace setting. We do everything in the halfcourt. I'd like to see a guard who looks ahead after the rebound and creates uptempo. A guy who RJ would thrive with getting some easy baskets. All a penetrators gonna do is put RJ and Randle at the 3pt line and take turns with them on offense.


That's the way i see it. It wouldn't be just Lonzo. You can add Lonzo then still have room and flexibility to bring in other pieces...even possibly a max in due time.


agreed. i think there is still plenty of room for this team to build sustainably while maintaining its competitiveness. we don't need to spend just because we have it. and i am not holding on to a kawhi pipedream. just saying if it were on the table, my answer would be to sign him.

fine with keeping the cap space if no one looks like a good long-term fit.
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#484 » by Knicks1992 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:53 pm

WargamesX wrote:The best fit PGs are Graham, Jackson, Nunn, Lowry, and Payne with the outside idea CP3 will come to a lesser talented team and act as a savior.

The Knicks need someone who can play on and off ball and be able to shoot, defend, and drive in half court situations. Lonzo is the equivalent of a 3&D wing in the half court. I get the fascination of Lonzo, he has upside and facilitation is important. However, That hawks series showed that they need someone to drive and attempt to draw fouls, shoot the ball from three, and pass the ball to rest of the team in position to score. If Payton was able to shoot off the ball he would have been perfectly fine as a starter. Flipside without the ability to attack the rim we would have the equivalent of Bullock vs Trae where Trae was able to hide out on defense and conserve energy for when he was on offense. You got to have someone who even if they can’t win that matchup, will at least try. They put Rose in there and it might have worked if there was any chemistry with him and the starters but he is part of Thibs bench scheme and the playoffs is the worst place to test chemistry out.


Agree with this. I like Nunn as he is still young, developed in Miami, and I think will bring skills Thibs will trust. I would be fine with a backcourt rotations of Nunn and either Rose or Jackson. Then Powell, RJ, and Quick with 2 & 3 being in play along with Bullock and perhaps another shooter from the draft.

Then down low you have Mitch, Randle, Obi, Taj? plus a defensive prospect from the draft Thibs likes.
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#485 » by Fury » Mon Jun 21, 2021 4:57 pm

Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Frequency as pick n roll ball handler:
Lonzo: 23.8%
Zion: 13.8%

Lonzo was actually good scoring in the pick n roll in the 69th percentile, shooting 45%. Def needs to try to be more aggressive and who knows if that happens.

And Pelicans are right in trying to put the ball in Zions hands more cause he is a beast.

Their frequency changed dramatically as the season went along. I wasn't able to use a time period filter to check the stats for the last two months of the season, unfortunately.

Lonzo not being able to weaponize the pick-and-roll with Zion - as evidenced by their lack of success - is an indictment against him considering Zion's gravity.

It's interesting (and encouraging) that he scores fairly well in the PNR. However, % isn't everything if he passes out most of the time. That's where his efficiency doesn't match the eye test.

It's the 3P% argument all over again where we're comparing RJ hitting spot-up 3s at 40% and Trae hitting mostly pull-ups at 34%. Those figures don't necessarily mean that RJ's the better shooter.


RJ still shoots the ball well, even if he's not Trae Young. Ball isn't Zion either but he still does a lot of things on the floor. That is where expectations and comparisons to star players can be a little unfair.

It is going back to what I said earlier though where a lot of teams best players/#1 scorers are basically running the team and defacto Pg. Zion is a beast so you want the ball in his hands.

Lonzo still has his limitations no doubt. He's not Lilliard or Trae...but he's also not Frank, Bullock or Payton either. He does some other things those guys can't do. Also, I like that he has gotten better every year. Zion also loves playing with Lonzo and always says great things about him.

I mean, if we are looking at the Pelicans, a lot of there issues are on the defensive end, mainly with Zion and others being a big liability.


Yeah, Lonzo has improved dramatically in pick and roll situations. If anything, they don't do it enough with him:

https://lonzowire.usatoday.com/2021/04/13/lonzo-ball-film-room-pick-and-roll-pelicans/
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#486 » by VirginiaKnickFan » Mon Jun 21, 2021 5:07 pm

Fury wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:Their frequency changed dramatically as the season went along. I wasn't able to use a time period filter to check the stats for the last two months of the season, unfortunately.

Lonzo not being able to weaponize the pick-and-roll with Zion - as evidenced by their lack of success - is an indictment against him considering Zion's gravity.

It's interesting (and encouraging) that he scores fairly well in the PNR. However, % isn't everything if he passes out most of the time. That's where his efficiency doesn't match the eye test.

It's the 3P% argument all over again where we're comparing RJ hitting spot-up 3s at 40% and Trae hitting mostly pull-ups at 34%. Those figures don't necessarily mean that RJ's the better shooter.


RJ still shoots the ball well, even if he's not Trae Young. Ball isn't Zion either but he still does a lot of things on the floor. That is where expectations and comparisons to star players can be a little unfair.

It is going back to what I said earlier though where a lot of teams best players/#1 scorers are basically running the team and defacto Pg. Zion is a beast so you want the ball in his hands.

Lonzo still has his limitations no doubt. He's not Lilliard or Trae...but he's also not Frank, Bullock or Payton either. He does some other things those guys can't do. Also, I like that he has gotten better every year. Zion also loves playing with Lonzo and always says great things about him.

I mean, if we are looking at the Pelicans, a lot of there issues are on the defensive end, mainly with Zion and others being a big liability.


Yeah, Lonzo has improved dramatically in pick and roll situations. If anything, they don't do it enough with him:

https://lonzowire.usatoday.com/2021/04/13/lonzo-ball-film-room-pick-and-roll-pelicans/


Lonzo would be a huge improvement over what Thibs had to work with this season. Get it done Leon.
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#487 » by HarthorneWingo » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:01 pm

jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:Macri newsletter on PG considerations this off season.

Spoiler:
Ball-ing Out

The more I think about why the eldest Ball brother is atop many people’s free agent point guard wish list, the more I realize it’s more about what everyone else isn’t than about what Lonzo Ball is. To wit:

Kyle Lowry: too old

DeMar DeRozan: can’t shoot; isn’t really a point guard; also kinda old

Spencer Dinwiddie: coming off injury, can’t shoot, and kind of a dick

Dennis Schroder: can’t shoot, is highly inefficient, and wants the bag

Devonte Graham: restricted; not a great facilitator

Kendrick Nunn: ditto

Cameron Payne: can we trust the sample size? What is he as a starter?

Reggie Jackson: are we seeing his ceiling? Not really a facilitator.

TJ McConnell: can’t shoot, looks like the ball boy

Lonzo doesn’t have any of these pock marks other than that he’s restricted, but there’s the sense that New Orleans’ frugal ways will rear their ugly head this summer, and that he can be had, somehow, some way. More on that in a bit.

Aside from that though, Ball checks a lot of people’s boxes:

Can shoot: Increased 3-point percentage for three straight years, and just under 38 percent the last two years (including last season on significant volume)

Versatile / Doesn’t need the ball: Can initiate the offense but also doesn’t have to to be useful. This is seen as a positive on a team with the likes of Julius Randle, RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley.

Two-way player: Couldn’t prevent New Orleans from having a bottom-10 defense, but he brings good size, smarts and skill to the position.

Age: Just 23 years old.

Upside: His improvement from behind the arc and from the line (44 percent over his first two seasons, 56 percent in his third, and 78 percent last season) suggests continued growth through his prime.
In broad strokes, these are the sort of things you’re looking for in a free agent signing for a team whose core players are 26, 23, 23, 22 and 21.

But the notion that Lonzo Ball can be New York’s answer at point guard is a fraught one. For the reasons why, we need to go big picture for a sec.

The classical definition of a point guard is someone who has the ball at the beginning of an offense possession and then distributes it where it needs to go. In the league today though, we know it’s not quite that simple, at least if we’re talking about the majority of the league’s point men.

More often than not, a starting point guard in 2021 will be able to create some sort of matchup advantage. Some are obviously better (and more efficient) at this than others, but almost every team has someone that at least passes for a reasonable facsimile of an offensive engine at point. It’s why the Bulls went to great lengths to shoehorn Coby White into a role he wasn’t ready for. It’s why the Magic forked over $50 million to Markelle Fultz on the mere chance that he could recapture some of what got him drafted first overall. It’s why the Lakers upended their championship roster to go get Dennis Schroder.

Teams that don’t have this are desperate to get it, and no one is more desperate than the Knicks, which is why we’re sitting and talking about the prospect of handing a massive sum of money to Lonzo Ball.

Here’s the only problem: For all the stuff Lonzo does, creating matchup advantages isn’t one of them, not in the half court at least.

As a lead ball handler, you essentially have two major weapons in your arsenal to bend the defense: the pick and roll, and the 3-pointer. Let’s start with the pick and roll, where as a passer, Ball is perfectly fine:

[video]

You’ll notice that after Lonzo darts right, Bismack Biyombo shows hard to wall off Ball’s drive. At that point, he hits the rolling Jaxson Hayes with a perfectly timed and placed bounce pass that results in a relatively easy finish. This is good!

Zooming out for a moment, New Orleans scored 4.4 more points per 100 possessions when Lonzo played than when he sat, so he seems to have a markedly positive effect on the offense. While it’s true that most of those possessions came with Zion Williamson on the floor, even without Williamson, New Orleans had a 112.9 offensive rating under Ball’s watch, which is still a borderline top-10 number. The flip side is true as well; the Pelicans scored 117.8 points per 100 possessions with Lonzo and Zion, but only 114.1 with just the big guy.

Again, all wonderful stuff. The issue comes with the fact that defenders won’t always be as eager to jump out as Biyombo is above. Lonzo doesn’t have much by way of counters to snake his way into the paint, nor is he adept at the sort of short midrange floaters that Trae Young used to bury the Knicks a few weeks ago.

That’s part of the season why Ball finished only 3.6 possessions per game as the pick and roll ball handler last season¹. That was the second lowest number of any nominal starting point guard in the league, ahead of only LA’s Reggie Jackson. Jackson, of course, played alongside Kawhi and Paul George, just as Ball watched Zion and Brandon Ingram spearhead most of the offense.

Is there a possibility that Ball will show us more of his bag if he’s tasked with greater responsibility? Sure…

[video]

…but the numbers say he also has a long way to go.

According to Cleaning the Glass, Ball hit 37 percent from the short midrange and 39 percent on long twos. Those numbers rank in the 32nd and 44th percentile for his position, respectively. The long twos number is encouraging though. For Ball to become the best version of himself, he’ll need to at least keep defenses honest when they leave him by his lonesome with such opportunities (think about how much those 16-to-18 foot makes opened up the game for RJ throughout last season).

From closer in, Ball has also had his moments…

…but he only made 20 non-garbage time buckets from between four and 14 feet this season, which is among the lowest numbers in the league for a starting point guard.

At the rim, the numbers get even more scant. Only 18 percent of his shot attempts came in the restricted area, which was good for the 20th percentile league wide, and that doesn’t even account for how often these looks came in transition, which is a higher number for Lonzo than most.

Those transition buckets helped prop up Ball’s conversion rate at the rim (59 percent, which is good but not great) but watch any commensurate sampling of his half court attempts from close range and you’ll see that finishing isn’t a strength. No one knows this better than Ball himself, which explains why he only drove the ball 5.0 times per game, good for 141st in the NBA.

Tom Thibodeau demands that his lead guards put pressure on the rim early and often, believing that even missed shots bring the ancillary benefit of offensive rebounds and put-backs (see: Payton, Elfrid), so this alone may be a deal breaker for Ball’s chances of ending up in New York.

But Thibs also repeatedly said how important outside shooting was for expanding the Knicks offense, which brings us to the other way that Lonzo can create matchup advantages: the three. Here, again, there are encouraging results if you want to squint a bit:


This is nifty little sidestep, but it’s about the closest thing you’re going to get from Ball when it comes to the fancy stuff behind the arc. The vast majority of his triples came off the catch on kick outs from the Pels bigger playmakers, evidenced by the fact that 83.7 percent of his triples were assisted.

For comparison’s sake, this is a little higher than Julius Randle’s number (79.4 percent) and nowhere near as high as Reggie Bulluck (97.5) or RJ Barrett (97.6), but also far higher than Immanuel Quickley (61.0). In short, Ball’s proficiency and volume from the outside (8.3 attempts per game, good for 13th in the league) will help open up the Knicks’ offense, but not nearly as much as your primo defense-benders.

All of this is to say that if Lonzo Ball is the ignition for your offense, you’re probably going to spending a lot of time in the shop, but that’s also where the conversation gets more complicated. In Randle, the Knicks already have a guy they’re comfortable running their offense through who is likely better in that role than anyone they can get this summer. My guess is they’re also counting on continued progression from RJ in that area as well, to the point that if they’re going to push Barrett further down the totem poll, it’s only going to be for a star. Again, that doesn’t appear to be in the cards.

But even with improvement from Barrett, a Knick offense led by these two still isn’t any match for the gauntlet of playoff basketball. So what’s the priority? Bring in one of the imperfect fits I listed above to give the offense more of a jolt? Or pay the asking price for Ball in the hope that he can be a part of the long term core even though he doesn’t necessarily cure what ails New York at the moment?

The tenor of this newsletter may seem like I’m leaning towards the former, but I’m not so sure. Deficiencies aside, there just aren’t a ton of guys in the league who give you at least three 3-pointers and five dimes per game:


The first four (who obviously should not be confused with Ball’s player type, but still) are max guys and VanVleet is making over $20 million annually and earning every penny. Graham’s market will play out this summer, but because of his size, you have to play him at the point, and there are holes in his game that limit the ceiling of any team he runs.

As we’ve just detailed, those same holes exist for Lonzo, but his size and defensive acumen helps you avoid the question of “if he’s not running the show, why is he out there?”

That also doesn’t mean he’s worth north of $20 million a year, which you have to figure is where his market starts. The Pelicans may be cheap, but given the recent news that Zion and Brandon Ingram like having Ball as a teammate, David Griffin isn’t going to let Lonzo walk for a fair number. It’s just as unlikely that Ball’s camp would settle for a more reasonable figure, this being a seller’s market with likely competition for his services.

I’ve long suspected that the way Lonzo ends up a Knick is in a sign and trade involving one of New York’s picks in this draft. In this scenario, my guess is he’d still wind up with something in the four years, $84-92 million range.

Before you scoff, some final considerations:

Have we seen his ceiling, and can Ball be more consistent? Back in May, Lonzo became just the sixth player ever to score 30 points, hit eight threes, pull down 10 boards and dish eight assists in a game, joining James Harden, Paul George, Steph Curry, Jason Kidd and Antoine Walker. The next night? 3-for-18 overall, 1-for-9 from deep, seven points. The night after that? Another 33, going 7-of-13 from deep. In other words, who the hell knows.
The Zion question. It has to be mentioned. The Knicks already have one Williamson carrot in Barrett, and in signing Ball, they’d get another one. Should this be a consideration? Honestly, how can it not be?
How tradable is the contract? Looking around the league at guys making in the low 20’s who are more supporting players than leading men, you’ll find Harrison Barnes ($22.2 million), Fred VanVleet ($21.2 million) and Malcolm Brogdon ($20.7 million). These players would all net at least a first round pick in a trade should their teams ever look to move them. Even if Ball is a lesser caliber of player, at the very least, you have to figure the deal would be movable.

Is there a more palatable alternative? I’ll get more into some of the names listed above as the summer moves along, but without question, there are arguments to be made for several.

In the end, I’m OK with Ball at the number he’s likely to get, for three main reasons. First, he will make your basketball team better. Is he perfect? No. But he’ll help you, and he’s a Swiss army knife. And he’ll make life easier for guys like Randle, RJ, Quickley and Obi. There is no lineup configuration he doesn’t fit with.

Let me preface the second point by first saying: I know we’re still living with the sting of utter offensive humiliation against Atlanta. New York’s offensive rating in the series would have been last in the NBA. It was bad. But that doesn’t mean New York should be in a rush, and in the case of Barrett and Quickley in particular, the organization should be prioritizing the long term play-making growth of both players. That means reps, and having faith that those reps will yield fruit. We’ve seen enough to believe such an effort is warranted, and Ball won’t mop up too much of their usage.

Lastly, if someone told me I could get a sub-elite 3 & D wing who can also run the offense for long stretches, and he’d cost something around $20 million per, I’d begrudgingly sign up. That’s exactly how we should be viewing Ball - not as the point guard of the future, but as an important piece of the larger puzzle.

At the same time, if they don’t wind up with him, no one should be heartbroken. Ball isn’t the be all, end all, and my guess is that the Knicks realize that, and won’t overextend themselves to bring him aboard. Nor should they.



That's a really good breakdown of the good and bad of going after Lonzo. I also agree with Macri's conclusion too. I think a lot of Knicks fan expect one person to come and fix all the issues with this team and that person just isn't on the market. We still need a primary ball handlers and someone that's going to create in isolation but with Lonzo, we can still improve our offense.

He'll help create more easy buckets by finding cutters and throwing ahead the ball on the break. Think of a turbo charged Jason Kidd the one year he was in NY. There was so many times this year that our guards missed Obi or RJ leaking out on the break. Or Obi making a great cut toward the rim. Lonzo is going to find them. He's also got a little bit of an off the bounce three point game too. So it's not like you'd be able to hide Trae Young on him like the Hawks just did to Bullock in our playoff series.


Lonzo played even worse against us during the season than Huerter did in the playoffs. And we saw what Huerter did to the Sixers in their series. Huerter can get to the rim too. Maybe the Hawks will be forced to trade him this off season or before the deadline next season for cap reasons?

I get that part of Lonzo being a secondary facilitator, outside shooter, and defender. Frank can fill that role and do so at a much cheaper cost. Frank was close to 90th percentile on catch and shoot 3s. We know he can play defense, even better than Lonzo.
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#488 » by WargamesX » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:05 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:Macri newsletter on PG considerations this off season.

Spoiler:
Ball-ing Out

The more I think about why the eldest Ball brother is atop many people’s free agent point guard wish list, the more I realize it’s more about what everyone else isn’t than about what Lonzo Ball is. To wit:

Kyle Lowry: too old

DeMar DeRozan: can’t shoot; isn’t really a point guard; also kinda old

Spencer Dinwiddie: coming off injury, can’t shoot, and kind of a dick

Dennis Schroder: can’t shoot, is highly inefficient, and wants the bag

Devonte Graham: restricted; not a great facilitator

Kendrick Nunn: ditto

Cameron Payne: can we trust the sample size? What is he as a starter?

Reggie Jackson: are we seeing his ceiling? Not really a facilitator.

TJ McConnell: can’t shoot, looks like the ball boy

Lonzo doesn’t have any of these pock marks other than that he’s restricted, but there’s the sense that New Orleans’ frugal ways will rear their ugly head this summer, and that he can be had, somehow, some way. More on that in a bit.

Aside from that though, Ball checks a lot of people’s boxes:

Can shoot: Increased 3-point percentage for three straight years, and just under 38 percent the last two years (including last season on significant volume)

Versatile / Doesn’t need the ball: Can initiate the offense but also doesn’t have to to be useful. This is seen as a positive on a team with the likes of Julius Randle, RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley.

Two-way player: Couldn’t prevent New Orleans from having a bottom-10 defense, but he brings good size, smarts and skill to the position.

Age: Just 23 years old.

Upside: His improvement from behind the arc and from the line (44 percent over his first two seasons, 56 percent in his third, and 78 percent last season) suggests continued growth through his prime.
In broad strokes, these are the sort of things you’re looking for in a free agent signing for a team whose core players are 26, 23, 23, 22 and 21.

But the notion that Lonzo Ball can be New York’s answer at point guard is a fraught one. For the reasons why, we need to go big picture for a sec.

The classical definition of a point guard is someone who has the ball at the beginning of an offense possession and then distributes it where it needs to go. In the league today though, we know it’s not quite that simple, at least if we’re talking about the majority of the league’s point men.

More often than not, a starting point guard in 2021 will be able to create some sort of matchup advantage. Some are obviously better (and more efficient) at this than others, but almost every team has someone that at least passes for a reasonable facsimile of an offensive engine at point. It’s why the Bulls went to great lengths to shoehorn Coby White into a role he wasn’t ready for. It’s why the Magic forked over $50 million to Markelle Fultz on the mere chance that he could recapture some of what got him drafted first overall. It’s why the Lakers upended their championship roster to go get Dennis Schroder.

Teams that don’t have this are desperate to get it, and no one is more desperate than the Knicks, which is why we’re sitting and talking about the prospect of handing a massive sum of money to Lonzo Ball.

Here’s the only problem: For all the stuff Lonzo does, creating matchup advantages isn’t one of them, not in the half court at least.

As a lead ball handler, you essentially have two major weapons in your arsenal to bend the defense: the pick and roll, and the 3-pointer. Let’s start with the pick and roll, where as a passer, Ball is perfectly fine:

[video]

You’ll notice that after Lonzo darts right, Bismack Biyombo shows hard to wall off Ball’s drive. At that point, he hits the rolling Jaxson Hayes with a perfectly timed and placed bounce pass that results in a relatively easy finish. This is good!

Zooming out for a moment, New Orleans scored 4.4 more points per 100 possessions when Lonzo played than when he sat, so he seems to have a markedly positive effect on the offense. While it’s true that most of those possessions came with Zion Williamson on the floor, even without Williamson, New Orleans had a 112.9 offensive rating under Ball’s watch, which is still a borderline top-10 number. The flip side is true as well; the Pelicans scored 117.8 points per 100 possessions with Lonzo and Zion, but only 114.1 with just the big guy.

Again, all wonderful stuff. The issue comes with the fact that defenders won’t always be as eager to jump out as Biyombo is above. Lonzo doesn’t have much by way of counters to snake his way into the paint, nor is he adept at the sort of short midrange floaters that Trae Young used to bury the Knicks a few weeks ago.

That’s part of the season why Ball finished only 3.6 possessions per game as the pick and roll ball handler last season¹. That was the second lowest number of any nominal starting point guard in the league, ahead of only LA’s Reggie Jackson. Jackson, of course, played alongside Kawhi and Paul George, just as Ball watched Zion and Brandon Ingram spearhead most of the offense.

Is there a possibility that Ball will show us more of his bag if he’s tasked with greater responsibility? Sure…

[video]

…but the numbers say he also has a long way to go.

According to Cleaning the Glass, Ball hit 37 percent from the short midrange and 39 percent on long twos. Those numbers rank in the 32nd and 44th percentile for his position, respectively. The long twos number is encouraging though. For Ball to become the best version of himself, he’ll need to at least keep defenses honest when they leave him by his lonesome with such opportunities (think about how much those 16-to-18 foot makes opened up the game for RJ throughout last season).

From closer in, Ball has also had his moments…

…but he only made 20 non-garbage time buckets from between four and 14 feet this season, which is among the lowest numbers in the league for a starting point guard.

At the rim, the numbers get even more scant. Only 18 percent of his shot attempts came in the restricted area, which was good for the 20th percentile league wide, and that doesn’t even account for how often these looks came in transition, which is a higher number for Lonzo than most.

Those transition buckets helped prop up Ball’s conversion rate at the rim (59 percent, which is good but not great) but watch any commensurate sampling of his half court attempts from close range and you’ll see that finishing isn’t a strength. No one knows this better than Ball himself, which explains why he only drove the ball 5.0 times per game, good for 141st in the NBA.

Tom Thibodeau demands that his lead guards put pressure on the rim early and often, believing that even missed shots bring the ancillary benefit of offensive rebounds and put-backs (see: Payton, Elfrid), so this alone may be a deal breaker for Ball’s chances of ending up in New York.

But Thibs also repeatedly said how important outside shooting was for expanding the Knicks offense, which brings us to the other way that Lonzo can create matchup advantages: the three. Here, again, there are encouraging results if you want to squint a bit:


This is nifty little sidestep, but it’s about the closest thing you’re going to get from Ball when it comes to the fancy stuff behind the arc. The vast majority of his triples came off the catch on kick outs from the Pels bigger playmakers, evidenced by the fact that 83.7 percent of his triples were assisted.

For comparison’s sake, this is a little higher than Julius Randle’s number (79.4 percent) and nowhere near as high as Reggie Bulluck (97.5) or RJ Barrett (97.6), but also far higher than Immanuel Quickley (61.0). In short, Ball’s proficiency and volume from the outside (8.3 attempts per game, good for 13th in the league) will help open up the Knicks’ offense, but not nearly as much as your primo defense-benders.

All of this is to say that if Lonzo Ball is the ignition for your offense, you’re probably going to spending a lot of time in the shop, but that’s also where the conversation gets more complicated. In Randle, the Knicks already have a guy they’re comfortable running their offense through who is likely better in that role than anyone they can get this summer. My guess is they’re also counting on continued progression from RJ in that area as well, to the point that if they’re going to push Barrett further down the totem poll, it’s only going to be for a star. Again, that doesn’t appear to be in the cards.

But even with improvement from Barrett, a Knick offense led by these two still isn’t any match for the gauntlet of playoff basketball. So what’s the priority? Bring in one of the imperfect fits I listed above to give the offense more of a jolt? Or pay the asking price for Ball in the hope that he can be a part of the long term core even though he doesn’t necessarily cure what ails New York at the moment?

The tenor of this newsletter may seem like I’m leaning towards the former, but I’m not so sure. Deficiencies aside, there just aren’t a ton of guys in the league who give you at least three 3-pointers and five dimes per game:


The first four (who obviously should not be confused with Ball’s player type, but still) are max guys and VanVleet is making over $20 million annually and earning every penny. Graham’s market will play out this summer, but because of his size, you have to play him at the point, and there are holes in his game that limit the ceiling of any team he runs.

As we’ve just detailed, those same holes exist for Lonzo, but his size and defensive acumen helps you avoid the question of “if he’s not running the show, why is he out there?”

That also doesn’t mean he’s worth north of $20 million a year, which you have to figure is where his market starts. The Pelicans may be cheap, but given the recent news that Zion and Brandon Ingram like having Ball as a teammate, David Griffin isn’t going to let Lonzo walk for a fair number. It’s just as unlikely that Ball’s camp would settle for a more reasonable figure, this being a seller’s market with likely competition for his services.

I’ve long suspected that the way Lonzo ends up a Knick is in a sign and trade involving one of New York’s picks in this draft. In this scenario, my guess is he’d still wind up with something in the four years, $84-92 million range.

Before you scoff, some final considerations:

Have we seen his ceiling, and can Ball be more consistent? Back in May, Lonzo became just the sixth player ever to score 30 points, hit eight threes, pull down 10 boards and dish eight assists in a game, joining James Harden, Paul George, Steph Curry, Jason Kidd and Antoine Walker. The next night? 3-for-18 overall, 1-for-9 from deep, seven points. The night after that? Another 33, going 7-of-13 from deep. In other words, who the hell knows.
The Zion question. It has to be mentioned. The Knicks already have one Williamson carrot in Barrett, and in signing Ball, they’d get another one. Should this be a consideration? Honestly, how can it not be?
How tradable is the contract? Looking around the league at guys making in the low 20’s who are more supporting players than leading men, you’ll find Harrison Barnes ($22.2 million), Fred VanVleet ($21.2 million) and Malcolm Brogdon ($20.7 million). These players would all net at least a first round pick in a trade should their teams ever look to move them. Even if Ball is a lesser caliber of player, at the very least, you have to figure the deal would be movable.

Is there a more palatable alternative? I’ll get more into some of the names listed above as the summer moves along, but without question, there are arguments to be made for several.

In the end, I’m OK with Ball at the number he’s likely to get, for three main reasons. First, he will make your basketball team better. Is he perfect? No. But he’ll help you, and he’s a Swiss army knife. And he’ll make life easier for guys like Randle, RJ, Quickley and Obi. There is no lineup configuration he doesn’t fit with.

Let me preface the second point by first saying: I know we’re still living with the sting of utter offensive humiliation against Atlanta. New York’s offensive rating in the series would have been last in the NBA. It was bad. But that doesn’t mean New York should be in a rush, and in the case of Barrett and Quickley in particular, the organization should be prioritizing the long term play-making growth of both players. That means reps, and having faith that those reps will yield fruit. We’ve seen enough to believe such an effort is warranted, and Ball won’t mop up too much of their usage.

Lastly, if someone told me I could get a sub-elite 3 & D wing who can also run the offense for long stretches, and he’d cost something around $20 million per, I’d begrudgingly sign up. That’s exactly how we should be viewing Ball - not as the point guard of the future, but as an important piece of the larger puzzle.

At the same time, if they don’t wind up with him, no one should be heartbroken. Ball isn’t the be all, end all, and my guess is that the Knicks realize that, and won’t overextend themselves to bring him aboard. Nor should they.



That's a really good breakdown of the good and bad of going after Lonzo. I also agree with Macri's conclusion too. I think a lot of Knicks fan expect one person to come and fix all the issues with this team and that person just isn't on the market. We still need a primary ball handlers and someone that's going to create in isolation but with Lonzo, we can still improve our offense.

He'll help create more easy buckets by finding cutters and throwing ahead the ball on the break. Think of a turbo charged Jason Kidd the one year he was in NY. There was so many times this year that our guards missed Obi or RJ leaking out on the break. Or Obi making a great cut toward the rim. Lonzo is going to find them. He's also got a little bit of an off the bounce three point game too. So it's not like you'd be able to hide Trae Young on him like the Hawks just did to Bullock in our playoff series.


Lonzo played even worse against us during the season than Huerter did in the playoffs. And we saw what Huerter did to the Sixers in their series. Huerter can get to the rim too. Maybe the Hawks will be forced to trade him this off season or before the deadline next season for cap reasons?

I get that part of Lonzo being a secondary facilitator, outside shooter, and defender. Frank can fill that role and do so at a much cheaper cost. Frank was close to 90th percentile on catch and shoot 3s. We know he can play defense, even better than Lonzo.

On the low they should see if they can bring Frank back on a cheaper contract but I doubt it. :nonono:
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#489 » by VirginiaKnickFan » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:06 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:Macri newsletter on PG considerations this off season.

Spoiler:
Ball-ing Out

The more I think about why the eldest Ball brother is atop many people’s free agent point guard wish list, the more I realize it’s more about what everyone else isn’t than about what Lonzo Ball is. To wit:

Kyle Lowry: too old

DeMar DeRozan: can’t shoot; isn’t really a point guard; also kinda old

Spencer Dinwiddie: coming off injury, can’t shoot, and kind of a dick

Dennis Schroder: can’t shoot, is highly inefficient, and wants the bag

Devonte Graham: restricted; not a great facilitator

Kendrick Nunn: ditto

Cameron Payne: can we trust the sample size? What is he as a starter?

Reggie Jackson: are we seeing his ceiling? Not really a facilitator.

TJ McConnell: can’t shoot, looks like the ball boy

Lonzo doesn’t have any of these pock marks other than that he’s restricted, but there’s the sense that New Orleans’ frugal ways will rear their ugly head this summer, and that he can be had, somehow, some way. More on that in a bit.

Aside from that though, Ball checks a lot of people’s boxes:

Can shoot: Increased 3-point percentage for three straight years, and just under 38 percent the last two years (including last season on significant volume)

Versatile / Doesn’t need the ball: Can initiate the offense but also doesn’t have to to be useful. This is seen as a positive on a team with the likes of Julius Randle, RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley.

Two-way player: Couldn’t prevent New Orleans from having a bottom-10 defense, but he brings good size, smarts and skill to the position.

Age: Just 23 years old.

Upside: His improvement from behind the arc and from the line (44 percent over his first two seasons, 56 percent in his third, and 78 percent last season) suggests continued growth through his prime.
In broad strokes, these are the sort of things you’re looking for in a free agent signing for a team whose core players are 26, 23, 23, 22 and 21.

But the notion that Lonzo Ball can be New York’s answer at point guard is a fraught one. For the reasons why, we need to go big picture for a sec.

The classical definition of a point guard is someone who has the ball at the beginning of an offense possession and then distributes it where it needs to go. In the league today though, we know it’s not quite that simple, at least if we’re talking about the majority of the league’s point men.

More often than not, a starting point guard in 2021 will be able to create some sort of matchup advantage. Some are obviously better (and more efficient) at this than others, but almost every team has someone that at least passes for a reasonable facsimile of an offensive engine at point. It’s why the Bulls went to great lengths to shoehorn Coby White into a role he wasn’t ready for. It’s why the Magic forked over $50 million to Markelle Fultz on the mere chance that he could recapture some of what got him drafted first overall. It’s why the Lakers upended their championship roster to go get Dennis Schroder.

Teams that don’t have this are desperate to get it, and no one is more desperate than the Knicks, which is why we’re sitting and talking about the prospect of handing a massive sum of money to Lonzo Ball.

Here’s the only problem: For all the stuff Lonzo does, creating matchup advantages isn’t one of them, not in the half court at least.

As a lead ball handler, you essentially have two major weapons in your arsenal to bend the defense: the pick and roll, and the 3-pointer. Let’s start with the pick and roll, where as a passer, Ball is perfectly fine:

[video]

You’ll notice that after Lonzo darts right, Bismack Biyombo shows hard to wall off Ball’s drive. At that point, he hits the rolling Jaxson Hayes with a perfectly timed and placed bounce pass that results in a relatively easy finish. This is good!

Zooming out for a moment, New Orleans scored 4.4 more points per 100 possessions when Lonzo played than when he sat, so he seems to have a markedly positive effect on the offense. While it’s true that most of those possessions came with Zion Williamson on the floor, even without Williamson, New Orleans had a 112.9 offensive rating under Ball’s watch, which is still a borderline top-10 number. The flip side is true as well; the Pelicans scored 117.8 points per 100 possessions with Lonzo and Zion, but only 114.1 with just the big guy.

Again, all wonderful stuff. The issue comes with the fact that defenders won’t always be as eager to jump out as Biyombo is above. Lonzo doesn’t have much by way of counters to snake his way into the paint, nor is he adept at the sort of short midrange floaters that Trae Young used to bury the Knicks a few weeks ago.

That’s part of the season why Ball finished only 3.6 possessions per game as the pick and roll ball handler last season¹. That was the second lowest number of any nominal starting point guard in the league, ahead of only LA’s Reggie Jackson. Jackson, of course, played alongside Kawhi and Paul George, just as Ball watched Zion and Brandon Ingram spearhead most of the offense.

Is there a possibility that Ball will show us more of his bag if he’s tasked with greater responsibility? Sure…

[video]

…but the numbers say he also has a long way to go.

According to Cleaning the Glass, Ball hit 37 percent from the short midrange and 39 percent on long twos. Those numbers rank in the 32nd and 44th percentile for his position, respectively. The long twos number is encouraging though. For Ball to become the best version of himself, he’ll need to at least keep defenses honest when they leave him by his lonesome with such opportunities (think about how much those 16-to-18 foot makes opened up the game for RJ throughout last season).

From closer in, Ball has also had his moments…

…but he only made 20 non-garbage time buckets from between four and 14 feet this season, which is among the lowest numbers in the league for a starting point guard.

At the rim, the numbers get even more scant. Only 18 percent of his shot attempts came in the restricted area, which was good for the 20th percentile league wide, and that doesn’t even account for how often these looks came in transition, which is a higher number for Lonzo than most.

Those transition buckets helped prop up Ball’s conversion rate at the rim (59 percent, which is good but not great) but watch any commensurate sampling of his half court attempts from close range and you’ll see that finishing isn’t a strength. No one knows this better than Ball himself, which explains why he only drove the ball 5.0 times per game, good for 141st in the NBA.

Tom Thibodeau demands that his lead guards put pressure on the rim early and often, believing that even missed shots bring the ancillary benefit of offensive rebounds and put-backs (see: Payton, Elfrid), so this alone may be a deal breaker for Ball’s chances of ending up in New York.

But Thibs also repeatedly said how important outside shooting was for expanding the Knicks offense, which brings us to the other way that Lonzo can create matchup advantages: the three. Here, again, there are encouraging results if you want to squint a bit:


This is nifty little sidestep, but it’s about the closest thing you’re going to get from Ball when it comes to the fancy stuff behind the arc. The vast majority of his triples came off the catch on kick outs from the Pels bigger playmakers, evidenced by the fact that 83.7 percent of his triples were assisted.

For comparison’s sake, this is a little higher than Julius Randle’s number (79.4 percent) and nowhere near as high as Reggie Bulluck (97.5) or RJ Barrett (97.6), but also far higher than Immanuel Quickley (61.0). In short, Ball’s proficiency and volume from the outside (8.3 attempts per game, good for 13th in the league) will help open up the Knicks’ offense, but not nearly as much as your primo defense-benders.

All of this is to say that if Lonzo Ball is the ignition for your offense, you’re probably going to spending a lot of time in the shop, but that’s also where the conversation gets more complicated. In Randle, the Knicks already have a guy they’re comfortable running their offense through who is likely better in that role than anyone they can get this summer. My guess is they’re also counting on continued progression from RJ in that area as well, to the point that if they’re going to push Barrett further down the totem poll, it’s only going to be for a star. Again, that doesn’t appear to be in the cards.

But even with improvement from Barrett, a Knick offense led by these two still isn’t any match for the gauntlet of playoff basketball. So what’s the priority? Bring in one of the imperfect fits I listed above to give the offense more of a jolt? Or pay the asking price for Ball in the hope that he can be a part of the long term core even though he doesn’t necessarily cure what ails New York at the moment?

The tenor of this newsletter may seem like I’m leaning towards the former, but I’m not so sure. Deficiencies aside, there just aren’t a ton of guys in the league who give you at least three 3-pointers and five dimes per game:


The first four (who obviously should not be confused with Ball’s player type, but still) are max guys and VanVleet is making over $20 million annually and earning every penny. Graham’s market will play out this summer, but because of his size, you have to play him at the point, and there are holes in his game that limit the ceiling of any team he runs.

As we’ve just detailed, those same holes exist for Lonzo, but his size and defensive acumen helps you avoid the question of “if he’s not running the show, why is he out there?”

That also doesn’t mean he’s worth north of $20 million a year, which you have to figure is where his market starts. The Pelicans may be cheap, but given the recent news that Zion and Brandon Ingram like having Ball as a teammate, David Griffin isn’t going to let Lonzo walk for a fair number. It’s just as unlikely that Ball’s camp would settle for a more reasonable figure, this being a seller’s market with likely competition for his services.

I’ve long suspected that the way Lonzo ends up a Knick is in a sign and trade involving one of New York’s picks in this draft. In this scenario, my guess is he’d still wind up with something in the four years, $84-92 million range.

Before you scoff, some final considerations:

Have we seen his ceiling, and can Ball be more consistent? Back in May, Lonzo became just the sixth player ever to score 30 points, hit eight threes, pull down 10 boards and dish eight assists in a game, joining James Harden, Paul George, Steph Curry, Jason Kidd and Antoine Walker. The next night? 3-for-18 overall, 1-for-9 from deep, seven points. The night after that? Another 33, going 7-of-13 from deep. In other words, who the hell knows.
The Zion question. It has to be mentioned. The Knicks already have one Williamson carrot in Barrett, and in signing Ball, they’d get another one. Should this be a consideration? Honestly, how can it not be?
How tradable is the contract? Looking around the league at guys making in the low 20’s who are more supporting players than leading men, you’ll find Harrison Barnes ($22.2 million), Fred VanVleet ($21.2 million) and Malcolm Brogdon ($20.7 million). These players would all net at least a first round pick in a trade should their teams ever look to move them. Even if Ball is a lesser caliber of player, at the very least, you have to figure the deal would be movable.

Is there a more palatable alternative? I’ll get more into some of the names listed above as the summer moves along, but without question, there are arguments to be made for several.

In the end, I’m OK with Ball at the number he’s likely to get, for three main reasons. First, he will make your basketball team better. Is he perfect? No. But he’ll help you, and he’s a Swiss army knife. And he’ll make life easier for guys like Randle, RJ, Quickley and Obi. There is no lineup configuration he doesn’t fit with.

Let me preface the second point by first saying: I know we’re still living with the sting of utter offensive humiliation against Atlanta. New York’s offensive rating in the series would have been last in the NBA. It was bad. But that doesn’t mean New York should be in a rush, and in the case of Barrett and Quickley in particular, the organization should be prioritizing the long term play-making growth of both players. That means reps, and having faith that those reps will yield fruit. We’ve seen enough to believe such an effort is warranted, and Ball won’t mop up too much of their usage.

Lastly, if someone told me I could get a sub-elite 3 & D wing who can also run the offense for long stretches, and he’d cost something around $20 million per, I’d begrudgingly sign up. That’s exactly how we should be viewing Ball - not as the point guard of the future, but as an important piece of the larger puzzle.

At the same time, if they don’t wind up with him, no one should be heartbroken. Ball isn’t the be all, end all, and my guess is that the Knicks realize that, and won’t overextend themselves to bring him aboard. Nor should they.



That's a really good breakdown of the good and bad of going after Lonzo. I also agree with Macri's conclusion too. I think a lot of Knicks fan expect one person to come and fix all the issues with this team and that person just isn't on the market. We still need a primary ball handlers and someone that's going to create in isolation but with Lonzo, we can still improve our offense.

He'll help create more easy buckets by finding cutters and throwing ahead the ball on the break. Think of a turbo charged Jason Kidd the one year he was in NY. There was so many times this year that our guards missed Obi or RJ leaking out on the break. Or Obi making a great cut toward the rim. Lonzo is going to find them. He's also got a little bit of an off the bounce three point game too. So it's not like you'd be able to hide Trae Young on him like the Hawks just did to Bullock in our playoff series.


Lonzo played even worse against us during the season than Huerter did in the playoffs. And we saw what Huerter did to the Sixers in their series. Huerter can get to the rim too. Maybe the Hawks will be forced to trade him this off season or before the deadline next season for cap reasons?

I get that part of Lonzo being a secondary facilitator, outside shooter, and defender. Frank can fill that role and do so at a much cheaper cost. Frank was close to 90th percentile on catch and shoot 3s. We know he can play defense, even better than Lonzo.


Frank can't create his own shot, even Thibs lost faith in him.
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#490 » by god shammgod » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:10 pm

a lonzo/rj backcourt. man it's gonna be a rough team to watch again.
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#491 » by omerome » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:16 pm

god shammgod wrote:a lonzo/rj backcourt. man it's gonna be a rough team to watch again.

I'm not jumping for joy, but that's so much better than reliving a Payton/RJ backcourt again.
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#492 » by god shammgod » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:21 pm

omerome wrote:
god shammgod wrote:a lonzo/rj backcourt. man it's gonna be a rough team to watch again.

I'm not jumping for joy, but that's so much better than reliving a Payton/RJ backcourt again.


somebody has to be a dynamic playmaker/scorer in the backcourt

i don't think thibs will even play them together for more than a month before he tells leon "i can't do it"
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#493 » by prophet_of_rage » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:24 pm

moocow007 wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:
moocow007 wrote:
The Knicks already struggle mightily to score as it is (that's what killed them against the Hawks) and you want to trade Randle for Ben Simmons? As awful as Randle was in the playoffs Ben Simmons struggles even in the regular season to score. Yes he can pass and defend but who's he going to pass to that Julius Randle failed to pass to? And this team already defends so that's not their weakness.
Makes no sense.

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What I said doesn't make sense or the trade (Simmons for Randle) doesn't make sense?
The trade makes no sense.

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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#494 » by Chanel Bomber » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:26 pm

god shammgod wrote:a lonzo/rj backcourt. man it's gonna be a rough team to watch again.

I said it the other way.

We're still trying to win the 1994 Finals.
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#495 » by jvsimonetti0514 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:34 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
jvsimonetti0514 wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:Macri newsletter on PG considerations this off season.

Spoiler:
Ball-ing Out

The more I think about why the eldest Ball brother is atop many people’s free agent point guard wish list, the more I realize it’s more about what everyone else isn’t than about what Lonzo Ball is. To wit:

Kyle Lowry: too old

DeMar DeRozan: can’t shoot; isn’t really a point guard; also kinda old

Spencer Dinwiddie: coming off injury, can’t shoot, and kind of a dick

Dennis Schroder: can’t shoot, is highly inefficient, and wants the bag

Devonte Graham: restricted; not a great facilitator

Kendrick Nunn: ditto

Cameron Payne: can we trust the sample size? What is he as a starter?

Reggie Jackson: are we seeing his ceiling? Not really a facilitator.

TJ McConnell: can’t shoot, looks like the ball boy

Lonzo doesn’t have any of these pock marks other than that he’s restricted, but there’s the sense that New Orleans’ frugal ways will rear their ugly head this summer, and that he can be had, somehow, some way. More on that in a bit.

Aside from that though, Ball checks a lot of people’s boxes:

Can shoot: Increased 3-point percentage for three straight years, and just under 38 percent the last two years (including last season on significant volume)

Versatile / Doesn’t need the ball: Can initiate the offense but also doesn’t have to to be useful. This is seen as a positive on a team with the likes of Julius Randle, RJ Barrett and Immanuel Quickley.

Two-way player: Couldn’t prevent New Orleans from having a bottom-10 defense, but he brings good size, smarts and skill to the position.

Age: Just 23 years old.

Upside: His improvement from behind the arc and from the line (44 percent over his first two seasons, 56 percent in his third, and 78 percent last season) suggests continued growth through his prime.
In broad strokes, these are the sort of things you’re looking for in a free agent signing for a team whose core players are 26, 23, 23, 22 and 21.

But the notion that Lonzo Ball can be New York’s answer at point guard is a fraught one. For the reasons why, we need to go big picture for a sec.

The classical definition of a point guard is someone who has the ball at the beginning of an offense possession and then distributes it where it needs to go. In the league today though, we know it’s not quite that simple, at least if we’re talking about the majority of the league’s point men.

More often than not, a starting point guard in 2021 will be able to create some sort of matchup advantage. Some are obviously better (and more efficient) at this than others, but almost every team has someone that at least passes for a reasonable facsimile of an offensive engine at point. It’s why the Bulls went to great lengths to shoehorn Coby White into a role he wasn’t ready for. It’s why the Magic forked over $50 million to Markelle Fultz on the mere chance that he could recapture some of what got him drafted first overall. It’s why the Lakers upended their championship roster to go get Dennis Schroder.

Teams that don’t have this are desperate to get it, and no one is more desperate than the Knicks, which is why we’re sitting and talking about the prospect of handing a massive sum of money to Lonzo Ball.

Here’s the only problem: For all the stuff Lonzo does, creating matchup advantages isn’t one of them, not in the half court at least.

As a lead ball handler, you essentially have two major weapons in your arsenal to bend the defense: the pick and roll, and the 3-pointer. Let’s start with the pick and roll, where as a passer, Ball is perfectly fine:

[video]

You’ll notice that after Lonzo darts right, Bismack Biyombo shows hard to wall off Ball’s drive. At that point, he hits the rolling Jaxson Hayes with a perfectly timed and placed bounce pass that results in a relatively easy finish. This is good!

Zooming out for a moment, New Orleans scored 4.4 more points per 100 possessions when Lonzo played than when he sat, so he seems to have a markedly positive effect on the offense. While it’s true that most of those possessions came with Zion Williamson on the floor, even without Williamson, New Orleans had a 112.9 offensive rating under Ball’s watch, which is still a borderline top-10 number. The flip side is true as well; the Pelicans scored 117.8 points per 100 possessions with Lonzo and Zion, but only 114.1 with just the big guy.

Again, all wonderful stuff. The issue comes with the fact that defenders won’t always be as eager to jump out as Biyombo is above. Lonzo doesn’t have much by way of counters to snake his way into the paint, nor is he adept at the sort of short midrange floaters that Trae Young used to bury the Knicks a few weeks ago.

That’s part of the season why Ball finished only 3.6 possessions per game as the pick and roll ball handler last season¹. That was the second lowest number of any nominal starting point guard in the league, ahead of only LA’s Reggie Jackson. Jackson, of course, played alongside Kawhi and Paul George, just as Ball watched Zion and Brandon Ingram spearhead most of the offense.

Is there a possibility that Ball will show us more of his bag if he’s tasked with greater responsibility? Sure…

[video]

…but the numbers say he also has a long way to go.

According to Cleaning the Glass, Ball hit 37 percent from the short midrange and 39 percent on long twos. Those numbers rank in the 32nd and 44th percentile for his position, respectively. The long twos number is encouraging though. For Ball to become the best version of himself, he’ll need to at least keep defenses honest when they leave him by his lonesome with such opportunities (think about how much those 16-to-18 foot makes opened up the game for RJ throughout last season).

From closer in, Ball has also had his moments…

…but he only made 20 non-garbage time buckets from between four and 14 feet this season, which is among the lowest numbers in the league for a starting point guard.

At the rim, the numbers get even more scant. Only 18 percent of his shot attempts came in the restricted area, which was good for the 20th percentile league wide, and that doesn’t even account for how often these looks came in transition, which is a higher number for Lonzo than most.

Those transition buckets helped prop up Ball’s conversion rate at the rim (59 percent, which is good but not great) but watch any commensurate sampling of his half court attempts from close range and you’ll see that finishing isn’t a strength. No one knows this better than Ball himself, which explains why he only drove the ball 5.0 times per game, good for 141st in the NBA.

Tom Thibodeau demands that his lead guards put pressure on the rim early and often, believing that even missed shots bring the ancillary benefit of offensive rebounds and put-backs (see: Payton, Elfrid), so this alone may be a deal breaker for Ball’s chances of ending up in New York.

But Thibs also repeatedly said how important outside shooting was for expanding the Knicks offense, which brings us to the other way that Lonzo can create matchup advantages: the three. Here, again, there are encouraging results if you want to squint a bit:


This is nifty little sidestep, but it’s about the closest thing you’re going to get from Ball when it comes to the fancy stuff behind the arc. The vast majority of his triples came off the catch on kick outs from the Pels bigger playmakers, evidenced by the fact that 83.7 percent of his triples were assisted.

For comparison’s sake, this is a little higher than Julius Randle’s number (79.4 percent) and nowhere near as high as Reggie Bulluck (97.5) or RJ Barrett (97.6), but also far higher than Immanuel Quickley (61.0). In short, Ball’s proficiency and volume from the outside (8.3 attempts per game, good for 13th in the league) will help open up the Knicks’ offense, but not nearly as much as your primo defense-benders.

All of this is to say that if Lonzo Ball is the ignition for your offense, you’re probably going to spending a lot of time in the shop, but that’s also where the conversation gets more complicated. In Randle, the Knicks already have a guy they’re comfortable running their offense through who is likely better in that role than anyone they can get this summer. My guess is they’re also counting on continued progression from RJ in that area as well, to the point that if they’re going to push Barrett further down the totem poll, it’s only going to be for a star. Again, that doesn’t appear to be in the cards.

But even with improvement from Barrett, a Knick offense led by these two still isn’t any match for the gauntlet of playoff basketball. So what’s the priority? Bring in one of the imperfect fits I listed above to give the offense more of a jolt? Or pay the asking price for Ball in the hope that he can be a part of the long term core even though he doesn’t necessarily cure what ails New York at the moment?

The tenor of this newsletter may seem like I’m leaning towards the former, but I’m not so sure. Deficiencies aside, there just aren’t a ton of guys in the league who give you at least three 3-pointers and five dimes per game:


The first four (who obviously should not be confused with Ball’s player type, but still) are max guys and VanVleet is making over $20 million annually and earning every penny. Graham’s market will play out this summer, but because of his size, you have to play him at the point, and there are holes in his game that limit the ceiling of any team he runs.

As we’ve just detailed, those same holes exist for Lonzo, but his size and defensive acumen helps you avoid the question of “if he’s not running the show, why is he out there?”

That also doesn’t mean he’s worth north of $20 million a year, which you have to figure is where his market starts. The Pelicans may be cheap, but given the recent news that Zion and Brandon Ingram like having Ball as a teammate, David Griffin isn’t going to let Lonzo walk for a fair number. It’s just as unlikely that Ball’s camp would settle for a more reasonable figure, this being a seller’s market with likely competition for his services.

I’ve long suspected that the way Lonzo ends up a Knick is in a sign and trade involving one of New York’s picks in this draft. In this scenario, my guess is he’d still wind up with something in the four years, $84-92 million range.

Before you scoff, some final considerations:

Have we seen his ceiling, and can Ball be more consistent? Back in May, Lonzo became just the sixth player ever to score 30 points, hit eight threes, pull down 10 boards and dish eight assists in a game, joining James Harden, Paul George, Steph Curry, Jason Kidd and Antoine Walker. The next night? 3-for-18 overall, 1-for-9 from deep, seven points. The night after that? Another 33, going 7-of-13 from deep. In other words, who the hell knows.
The Zion question. It has to be mentioned. The Knicks already have one Williamson carrot in Barrett, and in signing Ball, they’d get another one. Should this be a consideration? Honestly, how can it not be?
How tradable is the contract? Looking around the league at guys making in the low 20’s who are more supporting players than leading men, you’ll find Harrison Barnes ($22.2 million), Fred VanVleet ($21.2 million) and Malcolm Brogdon ($20.7 million). These players would all net at least a first round pick in a trade should their teams ever look to move them. Even if Ball is a lesser caliber of player, at the very least, you have to figure the deal would be movable.

Is there a more palatable alternative? I’ll get more into some of the names listed above as the summer moves along, but without question, there are arguments to be made for several.

In the end, I’m OK with Ball at the number he’s likely to get, for three main reasons. First, he will make your basketball team better. Is he perfect? No. But he’ll help you, and he’s a Swiss army knife. And he’ll make life easier for guys like Randle, RJ, Quickley and Obi. There is no lineup configuration he doesn’t fit with.

Let me preface the second point by first saying: I know we’re still living with the sting of utter offensive humiliation against Atlanta. New York’s offensive rating in the series would have been last in the NBA. It was bad. But that doesn’t mean New York should be in a rush, and in the case of Barrett and Quickley in particular, the organization should be prioritizing the long term play-making growth of both players. That means reps, and having faith that those reps will yield fruit. We’ve seen enough to believe such an effort is warranted, and Ball won’t mop up too much of their usage.

Lastly, if someone told me I could get a sub-elite 3 & D wing who can also run the offense for long stretches, and he’d cost something around $20 million per, I’d begrudgingly sign up. That’s exactly how we should be viewing Ball - not as the point guard of the future, but as an important piece of the larger puzzle.

At the same time, if they don’t wind up with him, no one should be heartbroken. Ball isn’t the be all, end all, and my guess is that the Knicks realize that, and won’t overextend themselves to bring him aboard. Nor should they.



That's a really good breakdown of the good and bad of going after Lonzo. I also agree with Macri's conclusion too. I think a lot of Knicks fan expect one person to come and fix all the issues with this team and that person just isn't on the market. We still need a primary ball handlers and someone that's going to create in isolation but with Lonzo, we can still improve our offense.

He'll help create more easy buckets by finding cutters and throwing ahead the ball on the break. Think of a turbo charged Jason Kidd the one year he was in NY. There was so many times this year that our guards missed Obi or RJ leaking out on the break. Or Obi making a great cut toward the rim. Lonzo is going to find them. He's also got a little bit of an off the bounce three point game too. So it's not like you'd be able to hide Trae Young on him like the Hawks just did to Bullock in our playoff series.


Lonzo played even worse against us during the season than Huerter did in the playoffs. And we saw what Huerter did to the Sixers in their series. Huerter can get to the rim too. Maybe the Hawks will be forced to trade him this off season or before the deadline next season for cap reasons?

I get that part of Lonzo being a secondary facilitator, outside shooter, and defender. Frank can fill that role and do so at a much cheaper cost. Frank was close to 90th percentile on catch and shoot 3s. We know he can play defense, even better than Lonzo.


Huerter is averaging 11.6 ppg in the playoffs on slightly better percentages during the regular season. This is who this kid is and that's a solid role player, I don't think we should overreact for a couple good games in the playoffs. If you look at his career numbers they're pretty much the same from Huerter first year with slight improvements in efficiency. Lonzo has made dramatic improvements with his efficiency and scoring. I mean that's how we ended up signing Jerome James to some crazy contract cuz of an overreaction to some playoff games. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't hate bringing in Huerter if the price was right but Idk if I see as much upside there as I do in Lonzo.

Frank can't fill that role cuz Frank isn't an NBA player and playing him more would not make us a better offensive team. Marci had a bunch of advanced stats showing the Lonzo made his team better. Frank's not even an upgrade for Bullock. If he was, Thibs would have played him in the rotation instead of being situational. We need to try to upgrade our startling line up, not make it worse.
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#496 » by Spree2Houston » Mon Jun 21, 2021 6:52 pm

1) We should all hope the Kings win the lottery tomorrow night. If they win, I believe they will take Cade and trade Fox. I don't see them taking Green because of Haliburton. Julius Randle for Fox would solve their PF issue and slide Cade into the starting lineup. It may take more than Randle but I would start off the conversation with that proposal.

2) I'm trading Barrett + picks for Ingram. Ingram and Zion are not a good fit and this would allow Barrett and Zion to be reunited. Friends Forever

3) Signing Lavine in 2022. We would have to renounce a few guys but we should be able to have a max slot for Lavine.

Fox
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#497 » by rickxdel » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:02 pm

We should really look into Spencer Dinwiddie to run pg

Coming off an injured season his value is lower so he can be obtained for 15-20M but when healthy he is a dynamic scorer and can run plays in the halfcourt
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#498 » by Fortune55 » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:05 pm

Spree2Houston wrote:1) We should all hope the Kings win the lottery tomorrow night. If they win, I believe they will take Cade and trade Fox. I don't see them taking Green because of Haliburton. Julius Randle for Fox would solve their PF issue and slide Cade into the starting lineup. It may take more than Randle but I would start off the conversation with that proposal.

2) I'm trading Barrett + picks for Ingram. Ingram and Zion are not a good fit and this would allow Barrett and Zion to be reunited. Friends Forever

3) Signing Lavine in 2022. We would have to renounce a few guys but we should be able to have a max slot for Lavine.

Fox
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Ingram
Toppin
Mitch


I agree with this.
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#499 » by 8516knicks » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:11 pm

Kevin Knox for Ben Simmons. Who says no?
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Re: Who will the Knicks Target? Here's a List of REALISTIC Players 

Post#500 » by Infinitimind » Mon Jun 21, 2021 7:12 pm

I would 100 percent take Ben over lonzo. Ben does not work with embid and needs to be used like the greak freak. Surround him with shooting and there is a chance his shooting can improved. This how you get better with talented you players and putting them in the right situation and keep developing them. Plus he can be had very cheap

Obi and 2nd round to New Orleans
Lonzo to Philly
Ben to knicks

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