PG: Nobody likes Black Santa Claus

[NOOB77]

Is your argument that Phil has been neutral (if we're willing to entirely discount the drafting of KP)?

Well if we play the MIGHT or MAYBE game....Maybe the GM besides Phil drafts KP also?

Actually I think positives Phil has done is:
Draft KP
Get Melo to stay
Rolo on decent contract

Negatives
Melo NTC
Calderons contract
Fisher hire


Other than that he hasn't done much. THjr for a pick was a solid move. Using the Pick on Grant seems to be a wash at this point. See how Grant develops if he plays.

My initial point is if had YOU has a GM instead of Phil and you did NO moves except draft KP. We as a franchise would be in a better place going forward as we wouldn't have Calderon's contract and all other contracts Tyson, Shump, JR would have expired. So beyond this season Phil has done nothing to really improve our future besides getting lucky and hitting on a draft pick.

That's not really true though, because we would have won more games with Tyson, Ray, JR, and Shump and may not have been in the position at all to draft KP.

Or maybe without Melo we would have had the same record. Or maybe we would have won the lottery and have Towns instead. Or maybe the Lakers draft KP and we are stuck with Russel.

[GONYK]

Well if we play the MIGHT or MAYBE game....Maybe the GM besides Phil drafts KP also?

Actually I think positives Phil has done is:
Draft KP
Get Melo to stay
Rolo on decent contract

Negatives
Melo NTC
Calderons contract
Fisher hire


Other than that he hasn't done much. THjr for a pick was a solid move. Using the Pick on Grant seems to be a wash at this point. See how Grant develops if he plays.

My initial point is if had YOU has a GM instead of Phil and you did NO moves except draft KP. We as a franchise would be in a better place going forward as we wouldn't have Calderon's contract and all other contracts Tyson, Shump, JR would have expired. So beyond this season Phil has done nothing to really improve our future besides getting lucky and hitting on a draft pick.

That's not really true though, because we would have won more games with Tyson, Ray, JR, and Shump and may not have been in the position at all to draft KP.

Or maybe without Melo we would have had the same record. Or maybe we would have won the lottery and have Towns instead. Or maybe the Lakers draft KP and we are stuck with Russel.

That is kind of why this game is pointless, right? Nothing happens in a vacuum.

[Blue Ninja]

77 still playing the maybe game. Ha.

77, say you win the lottery, what would you buy?

Would you party a lot?

But maybe you pick up a drug problem?

Idk man think about it...

[NOOB77]

That's not really true though, because we would have won more games with Tyson, Ray, JR, and Shump and may not have been in the position at all to draft KP.

Or maybe without Melo we would have had the same record. Or maybe we would have won the lottery and have Towns instead. Or maybe the Lakers draft KP and we are stuck with Russel.

That is kind of why this game is pointless, right? Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Right but everyone assumes without Phil all this "bad" stuff would happen. Maybe we have Thibs now and no triangle. Maybe we have Towns now. Maybe we traded Melo at the deadline because Phil wasn't here to give him a NTC. There are tons of things that could go either way.....

Phil has been an average GM. Seems to be trying to rebuild while making the playoffs which will cause us to be the definition of a treadmill team. He needs to have a clear direction for the franchise. Either rebuild through draft or get Free Agents and make win now trade. He makes moves that contradict each other. I am all for full rebuild or win now just pick a way. If you are win now a failure to get a lead guard in here is a massive failure. If you are rebuild then giving Melo a NTC and have AA, DWill and Thomas still on the roster is a failure. Can't walk the line because all he is building is a treadmill team.

[mpharris36]

Right but everyone assumes without Phil all this "bad" stuff would happen.

oh because we have only been through 15 years or so of this nonsense prior to him. The fear is due to the fact Dolan can become very hands on and demanding with his puppet GM's. We have a right to make that assumption because that is what has happened to previous 4 regimes.

[Knicks_Fan2]

I think we can all agree, even though we refuse to play Jerian enough for God knows what reason, that the THJr deal was still a heist. Props to Phil for that.

[NOOB77]

Right but everyone assumes without Phil all this "bad" stuff would happen.

oh because we have only been through 15 years or so of this nonsense prior to him. The fear is due to the fact Dolan can become very hands on and demanding with his puppet GM's. We have a right to make that assumption because that is what has happened to previous 4 regimes.

Assumptions are Assumptions though. History may trend one way but that doesn't mean history will repeat itself.

[mpharris36]

Right but everyone assumes without Phil all this "bad" stuff would happen.

oh because we have only been through 15 years or so of this nonsense prior to him. The fear is due to the fact Dolan can become very hands on and demanding with his puppet GM's. We have a right to make that assumption because that is what has happened to previous 4 regimes.

Assumptions are Assumptions though. History may trend one way but that doesn't mean history will repeat itself.

i love your innocence.

[JohnStarksTheDunk]

I think we can all agree, even though we refuse to play Jerian enough for God knows what reason, that the THJr deal was still a heist. Props to Phil for that.

Yup. As disappointing as Grant has been, he's still better than THJ now and has room to improve. Time will tell if Grant was the right pick at that spot, but we already won that trade. Being able to get a late 1st rounder for Hardaway was a steal.

[prophet_of_rage]

It's crazy how some of you actually compare Phil to the past decade of suck. If Phil leaves tomorrow, the franchise will be in 100x better shape than it ever was under Layden, IT, Walsh and Grunwald.

We have things we never had before. We have a great cap situation. We have a great rookie. We have a superstar. We have some other good valuable assets. We have no albatrosses or big deficiencies.

Yes, our head coaching situation leaves a lot to be desired. Yes, our depth is one of the worst in the league. Everything can't be fixed right away. The hard part was already done. Phil has reset this team in terms of assets and put us in a healthy situation going forward.

But we have not be placed into great cap situation by Phil Jackson. And we do have both albatrosses and big deficiencies.

The skyrocketing cap isn't due to Phil Jackson's moves, it's due to the NBA increasing the salary cap. Would have applied and been available to any GM. The majority of teams in the NBA will have significant cap space...and that doesn't mean that we should applaud every one of those teams GM's.

If anything Jackson's moves have put a mini choke hold on the Knicks cap, both for this past off season and potentially for the upcoming off season. Calderon's $7.5 million contract is locked in through next season. Afflalo and Williams combined $12.5 million also could become locked in (their option, not team option). Kyle O'Quinn (currently 1 of 7 PF' son the team) is another $4 million of of cap space locked into someone that is not used and don't project to have much use. Even Robin Lopez, a fine role player that would ideally be someone you add AFTER you have established your foundation/core and looking to make an impact in the playoffs, potentially can be viewed as excessive use of the cap (and he counts $13.2 million against the cap this off season).

Don't forget Melo's no trade clause which means we will never get anything of value for him.

[Greenie]

The excuses people make for Phil is laughably embarrassing. This guy exiled Dolan, is responsible for every player on the roster, he flip-flops the game plan, made the horrible trade for Calderon, struck out on every single meaningful free agent, implemented this awful system that is dependent on HOF talent (which we don't have) to work, hired a novice at elite head coach salary, fired him after less than 2 yrs, wants to remove the interim tag from Rambis merely because he is his puppet and friend, and yet somehow people are still finding a way to blame Dolan and Mills.

UNBELIEVABLE

Why do people keep saying this? Who did we miss out on? Greg Monroe? That's who you are bitching over?

Aldridge, Jordan, Monroe ... one third of the league was in free agency that year and we came out of it with Lopez, no point guard and Afflalo. It was a bad return.

Here's the free agency list

http://www.nba.com/freeagents/2015/

Now you know I love you, but you're wrong. Lopez is a good signing. Monroe has been horrible. LMA has been shaky at best and Jordan is Jordan making way more than Robin.

I stand by my opinion that we needed a PG. That's where Phil fuqed up.

[GONYK]

Or maybe without Melo we would have had the same record. Or maybe we would have won the lottery and have Towns instead. Or maybe the Lakers draft KP and we are stuck with Russel.

That is kind of why this game is pointless, right? Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Right but everyone assumes without Phil all this "bad" stuff would happen. Maybe we have Thibs now and no triangle. Maybe we have Towns now. Maybe we traded Melo at the deadline because Phil wasn't here to give him a NTC. There are tons of things that could go either way.....

Phil has been an average GM. Seems to be trying to rebuild while making the playoffs which will cause use to be the definition of a treadmill team. He needs to have a clear direction for the franchise. Either rebuild through draft or get Free Agents and make win now trade. He makes moves that contradict each other. I am all for full rebuild or win now just pick a way. If you are win now a failure to get a lead guard in here is a massive failure. If you are rebuild then giving Melo a NTC and have AA, DWill and Thomas still on the roster is a failure. Can't walk the line because all he is building is a treadmill team.

The NTC is a weird criticism, because the choice wasn't Melo with an NTC or Melo without one. It's Melo with an NTC or no Melo at all.

I don't remember a lot of people clamoring for letting Melo walk while getting nothing in return while his FA was happening.

I think this team caught in transition. I think the frontcourt is solid, but the backcourt obviously needs work. I think Phil thought Grant was more ready than he clearly is.

Other than that, I don't see a major need to tear everything down and declare we are rebuilding and burning off talent. We are a better roster than last year and have a chance to be better than this year if we make smart decisions in the summer.

I don't think has done a bad job with roster construction, though he clearly could have shored up the PG position instead of getting Seraphin. I think his real flaw has been picking a coach.

[mpharris36]

Don't forget Melo's no trade clause which means we will never get anything of value for him.

its not melo with a NTC its Melo with a NTC or no Melo at all.

Where did this assumption come from that Melo would have signed here without a NTC? I think that was actually a very big part of him re-upping with us.

So its Melo with his NTC value vs No Melo at all.

I'm taking the Melo with his NTC value....which one are you?

[GONYK]

Why do people keep saying this? Who did we miss out on? Greg Monroe? That's who you are bitching over?

Aldridge, Jordan, Monroe ... one third of the league was in free agency that year and we came out of it with Lopez, no point guard and Afflalo. It was a bad return.

Here's the free agency list

http://www.nba.com/freeagents/2015/

Now you know I love you, but you're wrong. Lopez is a good signing. Monroe has been horrible. LMA has been shaky at best and Jordan is Jordan making way more than Robin.

I stand by my opinion that we needed a PG. That's where Phil fuqed up.

I really don't get the constant dogging of Lopez. He's fantastic value for his production, and was clearly a better signing than Monroe. There are less productive C's making more than Rolo does with their contracts from the old cap. Once the cap jumps, Lopez will be making the equivalent of $8-9M/yr. That is excellent.

Blaming Phil for DJ is silly seeing how we met with DJ for 3 hours and put Rolo on hold for another day just to see where Jordan was going to land. Also, because DJ carried himself like a complete jackass this summer.

The Aldridge thing is what it is, but I doubt we are keeping him away from the Spurs anyway. Could we have made KP play the 5 to acommodate LMA? Perhaps in hindsight, but I don't think it would have mattered.

[NOOB77]

Did Melo state that he would not come here if there was a NTC on the table because I don't remember that. I have seen in baseball players get a modified no trade clause where they give a list of teams they would accept a trade to and a list of teams they wouldn't.

[Floozenheimen]

Right but everyone assumes without Phil all this "bad" stuff would happen.

oh because we have only been through 15 years or so of this nonsense prior to him. The fear is due to the fact Dolan can become very hands on and demanding with his puppet GM's. We have a right to make that assumption because that is what has happened to previous 4 regimes.

Assumptions are Assumptions though. History may trend one way but that doesn't mean history will repeat itself.

Anyone that thinks Jim Dolan will be a better option than Phil regarding team building is oblivious and/or insane. He is the sole reason why this organization has been a mess. He did the same thing with the Rangers, but relinquished complete control and over time they recovered and became a contender for a long period of time now, still going. Because he likes b'ball more he's been very resistant to do the same with the Knicks. His most recent blunder was trading a 1st rounder for Bargs, a guy we could have gotten for a bag of basketballs. He was being booed of the court in Toronto.

GTFO with this garbage. Dolan is a cancer to this organization, and right now we have him as quarantined as he's ever been. I'm rolling with Phil so long as that dumpster baby is lurking in the shadows.

[GONYK]

Did Melo state that he would not come here if there was a NTC on the table because I don't remember that. I have seen in baseball players get a modified no trade clause where they give a list of teams they would accept a trade to and a list of teams they wouldn't.

How is that "modified no trade clause" any different than a normal NTC?

[NYKnicksTAPE]

That is kind of why this game is pointless, right? Nothing happens in a vacuum.

Right but everyone assumes without Phil all this "bad" stuff would happen. Maybe we have Thibs now and no triangle. Maybe we have Towns now. Maybe we traded Melo at the deadline because Phil wasn't here to give him a NTC. There are tons of things that could go either way.....

Phil has been an average GM. Seems to be trying to rebuild while making the playoffs which will cause use to be the definition of a treadmill team. He needs to have a clear direction for the franchise. Either rebuild through draft or get Free Agents and make win now trade. He makes moves that contradict each other. I am all for full rebuild or win now just pick a way. If you are win now a failure to get a lead guard in here is a massive failure. If you are rebuild then giving Melo a NTC and have AA, DWill and Thomas still on the roster is a failure. Can't walk the line because all he is building is a treadmill team.

The NTC is a weird criticism, because the choice wasn't Melo with an NTC or Melo without one. It's Melo with an NTC or no Melo at all.

I don't remember a lot of people clamoring for letting Melo walk while getting nothing in return while his FA was happening.

I think this team caught in transition. I think the frontcourt is solid, but the backcourt obviously needs work. I think Phil thought Grant was more ready than he clearly is.

Other than that, I don't see a major need to tear everything down and declare we are rebuilding and burning off talent. We are a better roster than last year and have a chance to be better than this year if we make smart decisions in the summer.

I don't think has done a bad job with roster construction, though he clearly could have shored up the PG position instead of getting Seraphin. I think his real flaw has been picking a coach.

When did Melo say that he wasn't resigning without a NTC? I don't remember that at all. Phil said that he had offered Melo like 5 different contracts...it looks to me like Melo just picked one

[NOOB77]

oh because we have only been through 15 years or so of this nonsense prior to him. The fear is due to the fact Dolan can become very hands on and demanding with his puppet GM's. We have a right to make that assumption because that is what has happened to previous 4 regimes.

Assumptions are Assumptions though. History may trend one way but that doesn't mean history will repeat itself.

i love your innocence.

But Dolan broke your assumptions once by hiring Phil and giving him control right?

[prophet_of_rage]

in phil i trust, even if im in the minority now.

I'm with this guy. What is the opposite of hoodwinked and was it the name of an animated movie so I can put the movie poster as my signature?

You could use the Help.