PG: Knicks vs. Celtics: At least that 3rd quarter was encouraging...

[3toheadmelo]

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Just switch

Weak in the ass Mikal gets sealed off by KP without any problems waiting for the lob. KAT now has to decide does he go help or does he stay up so he’s in no man’s land. Tatum attacks off the screen and gets KAT back pedaling and KAT provides zero resistance at the rim for an easy layup and that is with OG trying his best to still help and contest.

Layups and dunks. No matter the scheme, KAT is still targeted

Anyone who knows ball knows that there is no scheme for a god awful defensive 5.

There is but you have to give up the three. Hmmmm.

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That’s what we’re trying to do. Our wings are over helping in the paint cause KAT is so damn terrible we have no choice but to give up 3s.

[prophet_of_rage]

The clip you posted was before the OG trade also. The Knicks did blow them out at the end of the year but the Celtics had already locked up the 1 seed. They had just come off of a game where they were the first team in history to not shoot a single free throw in a game. I'm not sure how hard they were competing at that point.

Either way KP is a tough matchup for Mitch and they have multiple bigs that stretch the floor. I'm not sure he solves the Knicks issues with the Celtics.

That’s why on defense we need to run more zones to keep Mitch closer to the paint, bottom right corner, Kat covers the lower left,
OG and Deuce up top

But Thibs wont even try another defensive strategy

Zone defense would give up too open many threes against the Celtics and they have great shooters.

Not to mention that zone he wants is strategically the same as the sagging shell we play now. Protect the rim and live with the 3.

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[Fury]

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[Knicksfan1992]

Not going to get embroiled in the classic back and forths on here. And the childish pointing fingers and calling each other dumb when both parties are likely being dumb lol. Just a few bullet points on how I’m feeling after this weekend:

-I literally couldn’t give a chit about that Cleveland game. No Hart, OG 1st game back after a 3 week layoff, OT game the night before. Whatever. They’re suspect to me until they pull it off in the playoffs. They can rack up as many regular season wins as they want. And no Deandre Hunter and Ty Jerome don’t scare me in a 7 game series lol.

-Bridges being so up and down is what is most disappointing about the trade. And he’s not just up and down with his numbers but his mentality, effort, defense, etc. all seemingly really swing based on if he makes his first 2 shots in a game. I’m still willing to hold on to the good games he’s and hope that some of his down play is him “saving his body” as much as he can to be ready for the playoff run. But that’s really just the optimist in me speaking. I’m not truly sure he’s the right fit and he may be the biggest swing on whether the Knicks can take Boston to 7 or if it will be a gentleman’s sweep.

-The Knicks really miss Donte. Even more than I thought they would and I was huge fan of him. He basically was the opposite of what I stated in the above. He had the ultimate green light and used it. The Knicks offense really benefitted from it. The Knicks still lack that true gunner and it really hurts their offense when one of Brunson or KAT doesn’t have it.

-Thibs is a good coach. Acting like he isn’t is being purposely obtuse. There’s a mountain of evidence against you. However, he is not without fault. Bringing KAT back in was ridiculous. NO defense for that. Most of you complaining about schemes don’t know what you’re talking about just straight up LOL. You just regurgitate tropes to push an agenda. That’s about as blunt/short as I can be about it. Again, optimist in me talking here but I truly think part of the reason he plays so much drop with KAT is to put as little burden on him defensively as possible (switching and guarding out on the perimeter is way more tiring) and save him from his bad habits (stupid perimeter fouls). Also when Mitch comes back he will mostly drop. Having the team get those reps in while he’s not here is useful even if you’re getting torched in the meantime. My guess is in the playoffs KAT will play at the 4/5 at more of a 35/65 or 40/60 split. And they will switch way more. We have precedent that Thibs will try defensive things that he doesn’t break out too often in the reg. season in the playoffs (see OG guarding Embiid down the stretch last year). That being said it would be nice to see some more scheme deviation against these type of opponents. Thibs will be judged on the postseason anyway. I’ll reserve my final judgment until then.

-They may have found something with Deuce and the starters in the 3rd quarter. IDK if this is actually a great thing because he took the place of Bridges and we looked a lot better but nonetheless still a good data point to have.
-Brunson and KAT specifically against Boston NEED to let it fly from 3. I think Brunson, specifically, figured this out in that 3rd quarter. He needs to force their hand and make them have to send two at him on the perimeter. Also with Mitch and/or Hart on the floor we’ll have a great chance at getting 2nd and 3rd chances. It’s our best shot of creating an advantage.
-Jaylen Brown literally is and has been bad all year lol. The only one of these dudes who is having a hangover. Knicks need to exploit him more. That’s who I would have KAT guard. Jedi mind trick them into thinking they have the advantage and get the ball out of Tatum’s hands. He’s basically abandoned his 3.

-This team will be fine. It sucks that Cleveland is having the year they are having because we’re on a collision course to have to play the C’s in round 2 instead of the conference finals. But we’ve beaten plenty of good teams. Memphis, Denver, Milwaukee. Destroyed all of them. I promise it’s not all doom and gloom lol.

[spree8]

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Just switch

Weak in the ass Mikal gets sealed off by KP without any problems waiting for the lob. KAT now has to decide does he go help or does he stay up so he’s in no man’s land. Tatum attacks off the screen and gets KAT back pedaling and KAT provides zero resistance at the rim for an easy layup and that is with OG trying his best to still help and contest.

Layups and dunks. No matter the scheme, KAT is still targeted

If the players were coached properly they would know their roles in this situation. Clearly they don’t. OG should’ve stayed with Kornet and Towns should’ve picked up Tatum from the jump, but there’s miscommunication and uncertainty here and that’s on the coach. Mikal did fine against KP there too?

KP had Mikal completely sealed off calling for the lob and there was no defender between him and the rim. That’s an over the top lob for a dunk. How is that doing fine? Mikal was cooked in that situation. The only help defender was KAT who was stuck in no man’s land. You tell KAT to play up more and Mikal is cooked. That’s a dunk/layup no matter what. Whether it’s KP or Tatum

That didn’t happen tho. The whole time Mikal was watching White looking to get the ball to Kornet/Tatum to run a play while he was pushing KP out of the way. Do I love him fronting KP for a split second at any time during this battle for position? No, but his effort and ability to read the offense to know he’s not at risk of giving up that pass is fine enough that I’ll let it slide.

Perhaps if these guys were better prepared things like this wouldn’t happen. Isn’t that Thibs supposed specialty? Our guys should know not to front KP at any time since the guy can be effectively guarded and pushed around by a 6’0” guard in the post (like he was guarded by Jalen this game at one point). Just like they should know that Boston takes more 3’s than 2’s per game and we should prioritize guarding the 3 over playing drop and protecting the rim.

If we committed to a more switch heavy defense then Towns wouldn’t have been out of position there and would’ve been ready to take Tatum on 1 on 1 and lived with the results. I’ve already mentioned KAT isn’t a rim protector and shouldn’t be in drop coverage (just like everyone else on this forum all season)… he doesn’t possess the necessary skills, but man defense…he’s solid and that’s been proven time and again by him guarding guys 1 on 1 either in the post (against guys like Joker) or iso on the perimeter (against guys like Tatum or SGA). He just has to know wtf his role is and as it stands now, he’s asked to do too much and he’s just not mentally capable of covering the way he’s asked.

[spree8]

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Nobody pushing the narrative that KAT is a bad defender will address this. Not one.

KAT in drop? Not the answer

KAT on the switch? Yes

It’s just that simple. Switch and live with the results. KAT and Jalen aren’t Luka level bad, they’ll put up a fight. Stay home and don’t give up open 3’s. Stop putting KAT in drop. Stop putting Mikal at POA and forcing him to fight over 10,000 screens every night while he plays the most minutes per night in the league. Switch. Starting Deuce over Hart also improves the starters defense and improves/brings energy off the bench and puts the ball in Mikal’s hands more.

[Spree2Houston]

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The cold hard truth Folkssssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This guy couldn't find his ass with two hands

We're supposed to take THIS guy seriously??? This fool set us back a decade

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Yeah I don’t buy it entirely. We were elite defensively with Brunson and Randle in our lineup because we had Mitchell Robinson cleaning up the mess. While KAT is a terrible rim protector, he is a vastly superior defender compared to Randle. KAT will bring better defense at PF than Randle ever did. Our defense will improve immensely once Mitch has worked his way back into the starting lineup.

[DOT]

Last season, our DRTG was 116.2 with Mitch on (8th worst in the league) and 110.9 with him on (3rd best in the league)

Year before that, we were 112.6 with him on and 112.9 with him off

2022 (year he played 72 games) we were 111.2 with him on (15th best) and 106.2 with him off (tied for best in the league that year)

2021 we were 106.6 with him on, 107.4 with him off

2020 is the last year there was a substantial positive difference, with us having a 109.1 DRTG with him on (top 10) and a 112.2 rating with him off (bottom 10)

It's been 5 years since Mitch has been a substantial net positive for our defense. Also we haven't been "elite defensively" since 2021. Last year we had the 10th ranked defense, but again, we were statistically significantly better when Mitch sat.

[mpharris36]

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thank you for posting!

far better chance getting stops playing defense like this then putting him in drop where he is absolutely clueless defending. Remember he played mostly the 4 last two years so he is far more comfortable guarding the perimeter than having to re-learn how to defend drop coverage which he was never good with from the jump anyway.

Just give him a simple assignment...switch. If teams start taking advantage you can always make adjustments. But I would rather live with these possessions then drop coverage where our team overhelps in the paint and then we are susceptible to drive and kick and spot up wide open 3 game.

But my goodness our drop coverage should be used with Mitch in the game not KAT at the 5.

[Capn'O]

but I truly think part of the reason he plays so much drop with KAT is to put as little burden on him defensively as possible (switching and guarding out on the perimeter is way more tiring) and save him from his bad habits (stupid perimeter fouls). Also when Mitch comes back he will mostly drop. Having the team get those reps in while he’s not here is useful even if you’re getting torched in the meantime. My guess is in the playoffs KAT will play at the 4/5 at more of a 35/65 or 40/60 split. And they will switch way more.

This has been my thinking. They're not switching up the scheme due to personnel because they're ultimately counting on certain personnel. It's why the spot minutes with Huk are producing results. I wonder if the team has been as in the dark as we've been vis a vis Mitch's timeline. I.e. if his setbacks have been unexpected for them. He's about two months behind where they initially said he'd be over the summer.

[Knicksfan1992]

but I truly think part of the reason he plays so much drop with KAT is to put as little burden on him defensively as possible (switching and guarding out on the perimeter is way more tiring) and save him from his bad habits (stupid perimeter fouls). Also when Mitch comes back he will mostly drop. Having the team get those reps in while he’s not here is useful even if you’re getting torched in the meantime. My guess is in the playoffs KAT will play at the 4/5 at more of a 35/65 or 40/60 split. And they will switch way more.

This has been my thinking. They're not switching up the scheme due to personnel because they're ultimately counting on certain personnel. It's why the spot minutes with Huk are producing results. I wonder if the team has been as in the dark as we've been vis a vis Mitch's timeline. I.e. if his setbacks have been unexpected for them. He's about two months behind where they initially said he'd be over the summer.

I do think there's some credence to the end of your post. Thibs has been saying Mitch is "close" for like over a month. And even if you think Thibs is a psycho, he usually plays pretty coy with the media on that kind of thing. Also Hart posted on social media like 2 weeks pre-ASB that their "7 foot demon" was coming soon and obviously he's not back.

I wonder if medical is basically saving Thibs from himself and holding back Mitch even though he's technically ready to play to make sure his conditioning is as pristine as it can be while not playing in a game.

[j4remi]

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thank you for posting!

far better chance getting stops playing defense like this then putting him in drop where he is absolutely clueless defending. Remember he played mostly the 4 last two years so he is far more comfortable guarding the perimeter than having to re-learn how to defend drop coverage which he was never good with from the jump anyway.

Just give him a simple assignment...switch. If teams start taking advantage you can always make adjustments. But I would rather live with these possessions then drop coverage where our team overhelps in the paint and then we are susceptible to drive and kick and spot up wide open 3 game.

But my goodness our drop coverage should be used with Mitch in the game not KAT at the 5.

Yeah, I don't think you can make a great defense out of KAT at the 5. But with Bridges, OG, and Hart next to him; being liberal about switches seems like the most reasonable way to try and cover for his flaws. KAT is terrible in drop coverage, and only nominally better at showing and getting back. So, back to the drawing board with what's been tried so far.

[Capn'O]

but I truly think part of the reason he plays so much drop with KAT is to put as little burden on him defensively as possible (switching and guarding out on the perimeter is way more tiring) and save him from his bad habits (stupid perimeter fouls). Also when Mitch comes back he will mostly drop. Having the team get those reps in while he’s not here is useful even if you’re getting torched in the meantime. My guess is in the playoffs KAT will play at the 4/5 at more of a 35/65 or 40/60 split. And they will switch way more.

This has been my thinking. They're not switching up the scheme due to personnel because they're ultimately counting on certain personnel. It's why the spot minutes with Huk are producing results. I wonder if the team has been as in the dark as we've been vis a vis Mitch's timeline. I.e. if his setbacks have been unexpected for them. He's about two months behind where they initially said he'd be over the summer.

I do think there's some credence to the end of your post. Thibs has been saying Mitch is "close" for like over a month. And even if you think Thibs is a psycho, he usually plays pretty coy with the media on that kind of thing. Also Hart posted on social media like 2 weeks pre-ASB that their "7 foot demon" was coming soon and obviously he's not back.

I wonder if medical is basically saving Thibs from himself and holding back Mitch even though he's technically ready to play to make sure his conditioning is as pristine as it can be while not playing in a game.

I've wondered the same. Thibs is saying he's healthy, medical saying "don't you dare." Knicks have a decent enough record. They need him healthy.

[GONYK]

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thank you for posting!

far better chance getting stops playing defense like this then putting him in drop where he is absolutely clueless defending. Remember he played mostly the 4 last two years so he is far more comfortable guarding the perimeter than having to re-learn how to defend drop coverage which he was never good with from the jump anyway.

Just give him a simple assignment...switch. If teams start taking advantage you can always make adjustments. But I would rather live with these possessions then drop coverage where our team overhelps in the paint and then we are susceptible to drive and kick and spot up wide open 3 game.

But my goodness our drop coverage should be used with Mitch in the game not KAT at the 5.

Yeah, I don't think you can make a great defense out of KAT at the 5. But with Bridges, OG, and Hart next to him; being liberal about switches seems like the most reasonable way to try and cover for his flaws. KAT is terrible in drop coverage, and only nominally better at showing and getting back. So, back to the drawing board with what's been tried so far.

I think Thibs just wants to run a consistent defensive system and may have always been waiting to slot Mitch back in instead of running a different scheme all season then switching it up when we get to the playoffs.

YMMV on whether that is a sound process, but the record and seeding are more or less fine, so there hasn't been any real repercussions.

[mpharris36]

thank you for posting!

far better chance getting stops playing defense like this then putting him in drop where he is absolutely clueless defending. Remember he played mostly the 4 last two years so he is far more comfortable guarding the perimeter than having to re-learn how to defend drop coverage which he was never good with from the jump anyway.

Just give him a simple assignment...switch. If teams start taking advantage you can always make adjustments. But I would rather live with these possessions then drop coverage where our team overhelps in the paint and then we are susceptible to drive and kick and spot up wide open 3 game.

But my goodness our drop coverage should be used with Mitch in the game not KAT at the 5.

Yeah, I don't think you can make a great defense out of KAT at the 5. But with Bridges, OG, and Hart next to him; being liberal about switches seems like the most reasonable way to try and cover for his flaws. KAT is terrible in drop coverage, and only nominally better at showing and getting back. So, back to the drawing board with what's been tried so far.

I think Thibs just wants to run a consistent defensive system and may have always been waiting to slot Mitch back in instead of running a different scheme all season then switching it up when we get to the playoffs.

YMMV on whether that is a sound process, but the record and seeding are more or less fine, so there hasn't been any real repercussions.

A consistent defense system built around a guy that hasnt played all season and isn't trust worthy to stay healthy even when he comes back?

How about you built your system around the personnel you do have?

On top of all that we acquired KAT lay in off-season where he wasn't playing much drop coverage for a couple years next to Gobert. So why would you force him into a coverage he's not good at that he hasn't been playing for years?

[GONYK]

Yeah, I don't think you can make a great defense out of KAT at the 5. But with Bridges, OG, and Hart next to him; being liberal about switches seems like the most reasonable way to try and cover for his flaws. KAT is terrible in drop coverage, and only nominally better at showing and getting back. So, back to the drawing board with what's been tried so far.

I think Thibs just wants to run a consistent defensive system and may have always been waiting to slot Mitch back in instead of running a different scheme all season then switching it up when we get to the playoffs.

YMMV on whether that is a sound process, but the record and seeding are more or less fine, so there hasn't been any real repercussions.

A consistent defense system built around a guy that hasnt played all season and isn't trust worthy to stay healthy even when he comes back?

How about you built your system around the personnel you do have?

On top of all that we acquired KAT lay in off-season where he wasn't playing much drop coverage for a couple years next to Gobert. So why would you force him into a coverage he's not good at that he hasn't been playing for years?

Because that's what Thibs wants to play

I'm not defending the guy's nature. I'm just saying we all know what it is. Thibs believes his defensive scheme is the best one and, when he has his pieces, he's proven to be right.

He's making a big bet on Mitch and he doesn't really have a reason to switch from his mentality. We're 3rd in the East and top 5 in the league.

[Capn'O]

Last season, our DRTG was 116.2 with Mitch on (8th worst in the league) and 110.9 with him on (3rd best in the league)

Year before that, we were 112.6 with him on and 112.9 with him off

2022 (year he played 72 games) we were 111.2 with him on (15th best) and 106.2 with him off (tied for best in the league that year)

2021 we were 106.6 with him on, 107.4 with him off

2020 is the last year there was a substantial positive difference, with us having a 109.1 DRTG with him on (top 10) and a 112.2 rating with him off (bottom 10)

It's been 5 years since Mitch has been a substantial net positive for our defense. Also we haven't been "elite defensively" since 2021. Last year we had the 10th ranked defense, but again, we were statistically significantly better when Mitch sat.

A couple things on that.

Last season Mitch was subbing in for Hartenstein. I've said it before. I'll say it again. iHart was by all measures our second most impactful player and, except for certain matchups, an excellent defensive player. Not a huge surprise that Mitch was a dropoff from iHart, especially since half of his games last season were rounding into shape at the end of the season.

Mitch in the playoffs was a totally different animal. We were a much better defensive team with him off than on. If he's truly healthy then that version of Mitch might show us something.

This year's team is designed more for his presence on the court whereas last year was more of an iHart team. Again, this isn't to say that Mitch is some sort of panacea but we need to see this defense with an actual drop big in it.

[DOT]

A couple things on that.

Last season Mitch was subbing in for Hartenstein. I've said it before. I'll say it again. iHart was by all measures our second most impactful player and, except for certain matchups, an excellent defensive player. Not a huge surprise that Mitch was a dropoff from iHart, especially since half of his games last season were rounding into shape at the end of the season.

Mitch in the playoffs was a totally different animal. We were a much better defensive team with him off than on. If he's truly healthy then that version of Mitch might show us something.

This year's team is designed more for his presence on the court whereas last year was more of an iHart team. Again, this isn't to say that Mitch is some sort of panacea but we need to see this defense with an actual drop big in it.

My thing has just consistently been, if we got KAT to play him at PF, that kind of negates the whole point of him and we would have been better off pursuing a PF

Because KAT's skillset offensively is unique for a C, not so much for a PF. And defensively, he doesn't offer you anything a modern PF wouldn't, and in some regards is probably worse than a standard PF

I get one wasn't necessarily available, but still. I see it as, even if the fit works, it's still a limiting factor for the team to play KAT next to non-shooting bigs.

[Capn'O]

A couple things on that.

Last season Mitch was subbing in for Hartenstein. I've said it before. I'll say it again. iHart was by all measures our second most impactful player and, except for certain matchups, an excellent defensive player. Not a huge surprise that Mitch was a dropoff from iHart, especially since half of his games last season were rounding into shape at the end of the season.

Mitch in the playoffs was a totally different animal. We were a much better defensive team with him off than on. If he's truly healthy then that version of Mitch might show us something.

This year's team is designed more for his presence on the court whereas last year was more of an iHart team. Again, this isn't to say that Mitch is some sort of panacea but we need to see this defense with an actual drop big in it.

My thing has just consistently been, if we got KAT to play him at PF, that kind of negates the whole point of him and we would have been better off pursuing a PF

Because KAT's skillset offensively is unique for a C, not so much for a PF. And defensively, he doesn't offer you anything a modern PF wouldn't, and in some regards is probably worse than a standard PF

I get one wasn't necessarily available, but still. I see it as, even if the fit works, it's still a limiting factor for the team to play KAT next to non-shooting bigs.

I think GO just said it best:

Because that's what Thibs wants to play

So we need to see if he's right or not.

I have my doubts but seeing this group with Mitch should be authoritative evidence on whether a new voice is needed. This is what _he's_ been waiting for.

[j4remi]

A consistent defense system built around a guy that hasnt played all season and isn't trust worthy to stay healthy even when he comes back?

How about you built your system around the personnel you do have?

On top of all that we acquired KAT lay in off-season where he wasn't playing much drop coverage for a couple years next to Gobert. So why would you force him into a coverage he's not good at that he hasn't been playing for years?

Because that's what Thibs wants to play

I'm not defending the guy's nature. I'm just saying we all know what it is. Thibs believes his defensive scheme is the best one and, when he has his pieces, he's proven to be right.

He's making a big bet on Mitch and he doesn't really have a reason to switch from his mentality. We're 3rd in the East and top 5 in the league.

I get using New York's top-three spot as a reason for optimism. But I think it's a bad excuse for Thibodeau to ignore the team's trash Defensive metrics. I'd want to see flaws addressed regardless of record.

I know you're not defending the mentality, just pointing to a potential rationale for it...but I have to mention that the mentality itself bothers me.