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BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani

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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5141 » by JustaKnickFan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:26 am

Anotha Knicks fan wrote:
JustaKnickFan wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:
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The Knicks traded 3 picks for someone who was going to be given up for free.

It was a really bad trade on their part.

Yay! Let's add another 200 pages of posts trying to explain the value of those 3 picks that were given up.


You know, just for sanity purposes, the trade has a different connotation when you say we gave up 2 second rounders, and a compromised 1st rounder rather than we gave up 3 picks.

I understand the hate for the guy, and I understand the fickleness we New Yorkers inherently possess... therefore I understand which of the expressions are used when making a statement.

Keep using the three picks debate... it makes your argument look that much stronger.

It's 3 draft picks no matter how you slice it.....2nd rounders very valuable, too.

I'm done arguing about Bargnani, because you guys don't seem to get how bad he really is (you will come regular season, I've rarely been so sure of something), but I will argue how stupid the trade was.

Literally every single non-fan of the Knicks I've spoken thinks the Knicks got the short end of the stick in the deal. Zach Lowe, Sportswriters, fans of other teams.
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5142 » by 2010 » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:26 am

knicks742 wrote:No protection? Yikes.


It's a swap. No matter if we played a horrible season and had a bad record ending up in the lottery Denver would have swapped our pick anyway. Anyway you slice it we weren't getting a good pick, protection or not.
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5143 » by Anotha Knicks fan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:27 am

JustaKnickFan wrote:
Anotha Knicks fan wrote:
JustaKnickFan wrote:The Knicks traded 3 picks for someone who was going to be given up for free.

It was a really bad trade on their part.

Yay! Let's add another 200 pages of posts trying to explain the value of those 3 picks that were given up.


You know, just for sanity purposes, the trade has a different connotation when you say we gave up 2 second rounders, and a compromised 1st rounder rather than we gave up 3 picks.

I understand the hate for the guy, and I understand the fickleness we New Yorkers inherently possess... therefore I understand which of the expressions are used when making a statement.

Keep using the three picks debate... it makes your argument look that much stronger.

It's 3 draft picks no matter how you slice it.....2nd rounders very valuable, too.

I'm done arguing about Bargnani, because you guys don't seem to get how bad he really is (you will come regular season, I've rarely been so sure of something), but I will argue how stupid the trade was.

Literally every single non-fan of the Knicks I've spoken thinks the Knicks got the short end of the stick in the deal. Zach Lowe, Sportswriters, fans of other teams.

Not for nothing, but when has this NOT happened?
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5144 » by JustaKnickFan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:29 am

Anotha Knicks fan wrote:
JustaKnickFan wrote:
Anotha Knicks fan wrote:Yay! Let's add another 200 pages of posts trying to explain the value of those 3 picks that were given up.


You know, just for sanity purposes, the trade has a different connotation when you say we gave up 2 second rounders, and a compromised 1st rounder rather than we gave up 3 picks.

I understand the hate for the guy, and I understand the fickleness we New Yorkers inherently possess... therefore I understand which of the expressions are used when making a statement.

Keep using the three picks debate... it makes your argument look that much stronger.

It's 3 draft picks no matter how you slice it.....2nd rounders very valuable, too.

I'm done arguing about Bargnani, because you guys don't seem to get how bad he really is (you will come regular season, I've rarely been so sure of something), but I will argue how stupid the trade was.

Literally every single non-fan of the Knicks I've spoken thinks the Knicks got the short end of the stick in the deal. Zach Lowe, Sportswriters, fans of other teams.

Not for nothing, but when has this NOT happened?

Plenty of people liked the Melo deal because the Knicks got the best player.

This is like unanimous disapproval.
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5145 » by KikupKnik » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:32 am

Plenty of people liked the Melo deal because the Knicks got the best player.

This is like unanimous disapproval.


If he's bad we fail.If he's good we win games.Its just that simple.He's only one player breh
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5146 » by GONYK » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:34 am

KikupKnik wrote:
Plenty of people liked the Melo deal because the Knicks got the best player.

This is like unanimous disapproval.


If he's bad we fail.If he's good we win games.Its just that simple.He's only one player breh


One player we got for straight garbage
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5147 » by JustaKnickFan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:35 am

KikupKnik wrote:
Plenty of people liked the Melo deal because the Knicks got the best player.

This is like unanimous disapproval.


If he's bad we fail.If he's good we win games.Its just that simple.He's only one player breh

All I'm saying is, it's not crazy that ESPN is hating on this deal.

Plenty of people hated all of the Knicks deals, and for the past 10 years they have been right. This deal seems like an Isaiah move, trade draft picks for talent, even if said talent has some mental trouble.

When it comes to Bargs, he had an incredible caliper test, so there's obviously something different mentally about him.
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5148 » by KikupKnik » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:36 am

GONYK wrote:
KikupKnik wrote:
Plenty of people liked the Melo deal because the Knicks got the best player.

This is like unanimous disapproval.


If he's bad we fail.If he's good we win games.Its just that simple.He's only one player breh


One player we got for straight garbage


Exactly.I'm one who doesn't look to one player to get this team on track.I think we've been searching for saviors too long.The TEAM gotta win the games not Bargani,Melo or God himself.The TEAM!
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5149 » by suicidedeuce » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:37 am

From Jan 10 2012:

http://worldthroughsports.wordpress.com ... -bargnani/

Something Is Fishy In The State Of Canada

The young NBA season has been a whirlwind so far, and you’d be forgiven if some story lines have escaped your attention. One of these less heralded story lines is the emergence of Andrea Bargnani. For his entire pro career, he’s been labelled “soft”, and not without reason. His rebounding and defense is not commensurate with his height and prodigious athletic gifts. His career rebounding average has hovered around 5 per game, an abysmal mark for a center, and his Rebounding Rate has been equally terrible. Likewise, his defense, specifically his help defense, has driven Raptors fans into fits. Before this year, there wasn’t much he could do well outside of scoring in a nontraditional way.

Then, this year happened. Not only has Bargnani improved on his rebounding, tying a career high in TRR and achieving a career high in DRR, he’s improved on defense. Bargnani is allowing .59 PPP overall, according to Synergy, enough to rank him 21st among all players with 25 or more defensive plays. Digging deeper, he’s been even more spectacular in the post, allowing just .5 PPP, good enough for 2nd overall among all ranking players. And while Bargnani still isn’t the best pick and roll defender, allowing 1.18 PPP to the roll man, most of those points come because Bargnani is overaggressive in his hedges. On the spectrum of defensive mistakes, a tendency to overhelp is preferable to complacency. Casey’s team defensive concepts have worked magic, and as long as Bargnani continues to listen to his coach, we can expect him to improve steadily, although it’s unlikely he keeps up this defensive production.

And even with all the improvements in his defense and rebounding, the biggest change in his game has been on the offensive side of the ball. While his per minute scoring stats are similar to last year’s, his first year as a first option, the efficiency with which he’s scoring is shocking. First of all, he’s putting up the best percentages of his career: 52.3% from the field, 56.3% eFG, and 61% TS. Secondly, he’s going to the line at a career high pace, averaging .38 free throw attempts per field goal attempt. And thirdly, add in the fact that the percentage of his shots that are being blocked are at a career low, and you have a picture of a scorer having a breakout year.

While it’s still too early in the season to be certain that Bargnani is really breaking through, it’s fair to ask what he’s been doing that has let him score at such a torrid pace. His shot locations can provide valuable information to determine this. Andrea is averaging as many attempts at the rim as he has in his career, and he’s shooting a career 75.8% there. He’s also been assisted on a career low 59% of his at the rim field goals. From the looks of it, that means he’s been more consistently attacking the rim, and he’s become better at finishing there. Bargnani is also shooting a career high 52.2% and 54% from 10-15 and 16-23 feet, respectively, two numbers that are likely to regress to normality. And finally, Bargnani is shooting fewer threes than any year before the last, and ALL of them are assisted, meaning he’s not shooting threes off the dribble.

Those numbers tell us quite a bit about the results, but I want to go even deeper. Luckily, Synergy Sports, a service that tracks every single play in every single NBA game and records the data, exists. We’ll go there for information and video on Bargnani’s game this year.

Looking at the Synergy numbers, we see that Bargnani is ranked 18th overall on offense by PPP, and that includes a rank of 5th overall in isolation, 2nd overall in the pick and roll as the roll man, and 3rd overall in spot up plays. He hasn’t had enough plays to be ranked in the post, but his very robust 1.13 PPP is very close to LeBron James’ 1.22, which ranks 2nd in the league. So, he’s been good. What else, though? What does his video show us about him?

I looked at the video of his isolation, post up, and pick and roll as the roll man possessions. One thing comes through the most. Andrea is most consistently effective when he only uses the pull up jumper as a threat to draw defenders off balance. I believe it was Zach Lowe of Sports Illustrated who ranked Bargnani’s pump fake as the best among all big men, and he’s pretty close there. Repeatedly, in the post and on the wing, Bargnani would pump fake and draw his defender into the air and then waltz around them for a shot at the rim. Teams had their most success defending him in isolation when they stayed home, and even then, when the perimeter jumper was falling, he’d kill them.

And then, even when you’re defending him perfectly one-on-one, there’s the problem of defending Andrea in the pick and roll. Bargnani is blessed in that he has an elite pick and roll point guard, one of the five best in the league, in Jose Calderon. Jose is smart enough and has the passing ability to make the defense pay for cheating anywhere on the court, so opposing teams are forced to play his and Andrea’s pick and roll straight up. One of the surprising things I’ve found about Bargnani’s play in the pick and roll is his tendency to slip the screen. And by tendency, I mean the fact that he almost never actually sets a screen, instead choosing to slip either towards the rim or towards the perimeter for a jumper. For whatever reason, defenders haven’t yet picked up on this, but eventually, they’ll realize he’s not a threat to screen, and play him closer. When that happens, you can expect his efficiency in pick and rolls to go down…theoretically.

So, what does all this mean? Well, we saw that Andrea Bargnani has really improved his defensive game, along with his rebounding, probably as a result of Dwane Casey’s tutelage and pushing. We’ve also learned that his offense has experienced the most improvement, although it may not be sustainable improvement. In all probability, Bargnani will not maintain his career high efficiency from mid range, and that will surely drive his overall numbers down. That, combined with an increase in defenders playing him for the slipped screen, will probably push his numbers back down to something resembling normalcy. However, as long as he remains aggressive, his physical gifts and touch around the court should ensure that he remains an offensive threat. The key is, he must remain aggressive. It will be up to Casey to keep Bargnani engaged in the team concept, and that means keeping him involved on defense and on the boards. If he can do it, Toronto’s future will be brighter than it has been for a long time.

All statistics courtesy of Hoopdata and mySynergySports
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5150 » by JustaKnickFan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:38 am

KikupKnik wrote:
GONYK wrote:If he's bad we fail.If he's good we win games.Its just that simple.He's only one player breh


One player we got for straight garbage


Exactly.I'm one who doesn't look to one player to get this team on track.I think we've been searching for saviors too long.The TEAM gotta win the games not Bargani,Melo or God himself.The TEAM![/quote]
Straight garbage isn't 3 picks :roll:

It's not like draft picks played a vital role in how the Spurs/Heat built their teams, 2nd or first.
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5151 » by GONYK » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:39 am

I don't care what that article says. There is roughly a 100% chance that a low 1st rounder and 2 late 2nd rounders will be better than Bustnani.
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5152 » by Mangiacake » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:40 am

JustaKnickFan wrote:
Anotha Knicks fan wrote:
JustaKnickFan wrote:It's 3 draft picks no matter how you slice it.....2nd rounders very valuable, too.

I'm done arguing about Bargnani, because you guys don't seem to get how bad he really is (you will come regular season, I've rarely been so sure of something), but I will argue how stupid the trade was.

Literally every single non-fan of the Knicks I've spoken thinks the Knicks got the short end of the stick in the deal. Zach Lowe, Sportswriters, fans of other teams.

Not for nothing, but when has this NOT happened?

Plenty of people liked the Melo deal because the Knicks got the best player.

This is like unanimous disapproval.


Does anybody like anything about the Raptors???Best player on a horrible team..he's going to get the heat.
As i said before he played very well next to Bosh.
Right now Bargniani is an unknown quantity because he has never played on a good team...let's see,deal is done
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5153 » by Anotha Knicks fan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:41 am

JustaKnickFan wrote:
Anotha Knicks fan wrote:
JustaKnickFan wrote:It's 3 draft picks no matter how you slice it.....2nd rounders very valuable, too.

I'm done arguing about Bargnani, because you guys don't seem to get how bad he really is (you will come regular season, I've rarely been so sure of something), but I will argue how stupid the trade was.

Literally every single non-fan of the Knicks I've spoken thinks the Knicks got the short end of the stick in the deal. Zach Lowe, Sportswriters, fans of other teams.

Not for nothing, but when has this NOT happened?

Plenty of people liked the Melo deal because the Knicks got the best player.

This is like unanimous disapproval.

Don't remember this... Maybe I am confusing what was being reported with the posters here on realgm... (including myself) but ok. I'll take that. Even then, when has the media not shat on us? Look I am not saying Bargs will be our savior... Melo's got that spot chalked up. But I am saying he is better than what we could've gotten out of any one of those "assets" we gave up for him. Together? Who knows? in the right scheme, I guess Novak, Camby, 2 second rounders, and possibly a mid first rounder could propel an already established team to the promised land.... (Toronto is not that team) With the limited moves we could have made this offseason, I don't think it's too big of a gamble to make.
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5154 » by JustaKnickFan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:41 am

Mangiacake wrote:
JustaKnickFan wrote:
Anotha Knicks fan wrote:Not for nothing, but when has this NOT happened?

Plenty of people liked the Melo deal because the Knicks got the best player.

This is like unanimous disapproval.


Does anybody like anything about the Raptors???Best player on a horrible team..he's going to get the heat.
As i said before he played very well next to Bosh.
Right now Bargniani is an unknown quantity because he has never played on a good team...let's see,deal is done

He played on a playoff team.

He still sucked. Couldn't get rebounds. Couldn't defend. Couldn't score efficiently.
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5155 » by Komodo » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:43 am

Mangiacake wrote:
Komodo wrote:Raps fan here,

I can't wait to see how this plays out. Toronto/New York games are going to be that much more enjoyable (we had some good battles last year).

You've heard it all before but I'll chime in anyway. New York is a crazy market for Bargnani. The TO crowd booing really got to him last year.

He's got a ton of skill but no desire to be great. You will never see him dive for a loose ball. His 1-on-1 post/man D is solid, but his help/team D is awful. He's merely OK at boxing out his man. He sets horrible screens. He's a shooter who can't shoot. He's statistically the worst rebounding big man in the history of the NBA. He's got a great shot fake. It'll be interesting to see if NY's group of guys can light a fire under his ass. He'll have a 8-game dominating stretch at some point, but also will have his annual month-long stinker. Also shows absolutely no emotion whether in the game or on the bench.

Good luck!


Former Raps fan here.

How do you know what his desire is ? LJ himself can't save The Raptors
His team defense is awful becuse the whole team D was awful...Calderon say hi from the Mavs
A shooter who can't shoot??? Is that why his shot fake is so good??bacause people don't respect his shot?
He had a 13 game stretch before he got injured because he was played so many minutes because the rest of the team sucked.He carried this team over and over again
Intangiables again???No emotion must equal he doesn't care

Good luck with Hansbrough

One more thing you said the crowd boos really got to him??? I thought he doesn't care???...wrong again haters


Trust me, I'm glad to see him go. Hansbrough's intensity is a welcome addition. I think my above post is pretty objective, actually. He has no desire because he plays with zero intensity or emotion. I literally never saw him dive for a loose ball once in his career. He's extremely streaky from distance. He's a stretch 4 that's shot 29-30% from 3 in the past 2 years. I do think he will be better than he's shown recently, however. He actually used to be one of my favorite players years ago before I took the homer glasses off and decided to become a fan of league-wide talent in general (and subsequently realized how much I despised his lazy, soft, inefficient game), so it'll be interesting to see unfold.
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5156 » by KikupKnik » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:43 am

JustaKnickFan wrote:
KikupKnik wrote:
GONYK wrote:If he's bad we fail.If he's good we win games.Its just that simple.He's only one player breh


One player we got for straight garbage


Exactly.I'm one who doesn't look to one player to get this team on track.I think we've been searching for saviors too long.The TEAM gotta win the games not Bargani,Melo or God himself.The TEAM!

Straight garbage isn't 3 picks :roll:

It's not like draft picks played a vital role in how the Spurs/Heat built their teams, 2nd or first.[/quote]

Thats not my point.My point is,too much time is spent dogging Bargs because he isn't that "superstar" 1st round pick you fantasizing about.We can't put future draft picks on the floor to play games next season,but we could
use him,and the reality is both can either work out and contribute or fail.
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5157 » by JustaKnickFan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:45 am

Anotha Knicks fan wrote:
JustaKnickFan wrote:
Anotha Knicks fan wrote:Not for nothing, but when has this NOT happened?

Plenty of people liked the Melo deal because the Knicks got the best player.

This is like unanimous disapproval.

Don't remember this... Maybe I am confusing what was being reported with the posters here on realgm... (including myself) but ok. I'll take that. Even then, when has the media not shat on us? Look I am not saying Bargs will be our savior... Melo's got that spot chalked up. But I am saying he is better than what we could've gotten out of any one of those "assets" we gave up for him. Together? Who knows? in the right scheme, I guess Novak, Camby, 2 second rounders, and possibly a mid first rounder could propel an already established team to the promised land.... (Toronto is not that team) With the limited moves we could have made this offseason, I don't think it's too big of a gamble to make.

Trading away draft picks is a big gamble. What will it take for us as a fanbase to realize this.

We've traded draft picks for over 10 years, look where its got us.

Teams like the Spurs, Heat, Warriors, Celtics, and Rockets value draft picks. Look how they've done. Hell, even Kobe was a draft pick. Draft picks yield talent, even the non-lottery ones.

Guys like Rondo, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobli were all late round picks. Would you rather have a young Manu Ginobli or Andrea Bargnani.

Now I'm not saying that this is the norm, but it is for teams that value the draft. Teams that value the draft CONSISTENTLY get value out of it, no matter the round.

So yeah, 3 picks is a lot to give up. This team needs as much young talent as it can get, and picks is the best way to get that young talent.
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5158 » by Mangiacake » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:45 am

GONYK wrote:I don't care what that article says. There is roughly a 100% chance that a low 1st rounder and 2 late 2nd rounders will be better than Bustnani.


When he played next to Bosh they were the killer Bee's not Bustnani...that's right you blame Bargniani for all the failures of The Raptors
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5159 » by JustaKnickFan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:46 am

KikupKnik wrote:
JustaKnickFan wrote:
KikupKnik wrote:If he's bad we fail.If he's good we win games.Its just that simple.He's only one player breh


One player we got for straight garbage


Exactly.I'm one who doesn't look to one player to get this team on track.I think we've been searching for saviors too long.The TEAM gotta win the games not Bargani,Melo or God himself.The TEAM!

Straight garbage isn't 3 picks :roll:

It's not like draft picks played a vital role in how the Spurs/Heat built their teams, 2nd or first.[/quote]

Thats not my point.My point is,too much time is spent dogging Bargs because he isn't that "superstar" 1st round pick you fantasizing about.We can't put future draft picks on the floor to play games next season,but we could
use him,and the reality is both can either work out and contribute or fail.[/quote]
But we're wasting picks on a lateral move.

Bargs isn't beating the Pacers Heat or Bulls.

Those picks could have gotten the Knicks very valuable role players/trade chips to use to get another great player. However, instead they're used to get a mediocre player.
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Re: BREAKING **** NEWS: Deal #done Knicks acquire Bargnani 

Post#5160 » by KikupKnik » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:46 am

Mangiacake wrote:
GONYK wrote:I don't care what that article says. There is roughly a 100% chance that a low 1st rounder and 2 late 2nd rounders will be better than Bustnani.


When he played next to Bosh they were the killer Bee's not Bustnani...that's right you blame Bargniani for all the failures of The Raptors


& last I checked,when he played us, he was a f*** headache to me!

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