OFFICIAL - Amare Must Go Thread (all hate here) #TRADESTAT

blumatic · Post #561 » by **blumatic** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:09 am

I remember couple years ago Bill Walker was asked to get to a certain weight. Less weight. During summer league in u saw the amount of weight he lost. Physically he looked good but he said it was very difficult for him to play at that weight. When he did a move it wasn't the same result he was expecting. Amar'e just needs to lose the 20 pounds. When he first came here I didn't realize how thin or really lean he was. But that made him mobile. I thought it wasn't smart for him to gain that weight. But hearing that he couldn't do much basketball activity I had to do something to keep the body fat low and stay in shape.

Defensively he just has to play smarter. I see his good intent past few weeks but he makes the wrong play. Like trying to trap the pick n roll but leaving his man wide open underneath for the fame winner.

knicksosmoove · Post #562 » by **knicksosmoove** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:33 am

if amar'e could play every night like he did against the Heat, I wouldn't be too mad at him. We'd still be overpaying for him, but at least he'd be bringing good things to the court.

it is imperative that he and Carmelo find their mid range jump shots over the next two months. it is also imperative that at least one of the guards gets solid pick and roll chemistry with amar'e.

and I think if we're going to ask amar'e to change his game--add a post game, become more of a stretch four--it's also fair to ask Tyson to work on a 10 foot jumper.

knicksosmoove · Post #563 » by **knicksosmoove** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:46 am

SelbyCobra wrote:More of what I personally perceive as total BS and selfishness / ignorance to the truth from Stoudemire:

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... For_Knicks

Amar’e Stoudemire is averaging 17.5 points per game this season, down from his 23.5 average during his first season with the Knicks.

“No worries,’’ said Stoudemire. “I’ve spent a year where I’ve pretty much had to sacrifice a lot of my game. Whatever it takes to win. That’s the ultimate goal. If it’s sacrificing the All-Star Game for the betterment of the team, it’s how it goes sometimes.’’

He is making a sacrifice. Last year it was more or less our goal to get Stoudemire going. Every possession started with a Felton/Stoudemire pick and roll. We ran curls for him a lot. We spaced the floor for his isolation game. I think in a way it marginalized guys like Danilo, but it was effective, and we won at a decent clip doing so.

We don't do that anymore. Now he is being asked to change his game to fit his new teammates. He's not doing a good job at it, but he is making a sacrifice. And admirably, he has not complained about it one bit, so I have to give him some kudos there. I think he more or less has the right attitude; he's accepting that it's not going to be about numbers with him, just about doing his job. He's not playing well because he's not shooting the ball as well as he could, but this is the attitude he needs to have.

He only put up 13/5 in that Heat game, but I was more pleased with him than I've been all season because he played pretty much how I envisioned he would play given his new role. He at least had energy on defense and with the boards and only took efficient looks which resulted in 13 points on 7 shots.

SelbyCobra · Post #564 » by **SelbyCobra** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:13 am

knicksosmoove wrote:
SelbyCobra wrote:More of what I personally perceive as total BS and selfishness / ignorance to the truth from Stoudemire:

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... For_Knicks

Amar’e Stoudemire is averaging 17.5 points per game this season, down from his 23.5 average during his first season with the Knicks.

“No worries,’’ said Stoudemire. “I’ve spent a year where I’ve pretty much had to sacrifice a lot of my game. Whatever it takes to win. That’s the ultimate goal. If it’s sacrificing the All-Star Game for the betterment of the team, it’s how it goes sometimes.’’

He is making a sacrifice. Last year it was more or less our goal to get Stoudemire going. Every possession started with a Felton/Stoudemire pick and roll. We ran curls for him a lot. We spaced the floor for his isolation game. I think in a way it marginalized guys like Danilo, but it was effective, and we won at a decent clip doing so.

We don't do that anymore. Now he is being asked to change his game to fit his new teammates. He's not doing a good job at it, but he is making a sacrifice. And admirably, he has not complained about it one bit, so I have to give him some kudos there. I think he more or less has the right attitude; he's accepting that it's not going to be about numbers with him, just about doing his job. He's not playing well because he's not shooting the ball as well as he could, but this is the attitude he needs to have.

He only put up 13/5 in that Heat game, but I was more pleased with him than I've been all season because he played pretty much how I envisioned he would play given his new role. He at least had energy on defense and with the boards and only took efficient looks which resulted in 13 points on 7 shots.

If he hit shots at the same frequency he did last year - or even close to it - he'd still be an All-Star this year.

He's not an All-Star this year because he's sucked, not because of the role he's played. He didn't sacrifice the All-Star game, he simply wasn't even close to good enough to belong there. That he is not even willing to understand that is annoying as hell to me as a fan. Zero accountability for playing terribly for the bulk of the season so far - instead, just blame it on everyone else: "I've been asked to play a different role for the good of the team."

Please.

blumatic · Post #565 » by **blumatic** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:26 am

He knows he's having a bad year. After the Pistons game he thanked his fans for being patient with him. Dantoni and Grunwald in interviews acknowledged STAT struggles. So everyone knows. Alan Hahn asked Amar'e about his physical wellness. Amare quickly answered "Im fine".

But he knows and the world knows. You can tell even in his body language. His confidence is low. No swag that he had last year. And he knows why.

knicksosmoove · Post #566 » by **knicksosmoove** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:43 am

SelbyCobra wrote:If he hit shots at the same frequency he did last year - or even close to it - he'd still be an All-Star this year.

He's not an All-Star this year because he's sucked, not because of the role he's played. He didn't sacrifice the All-Star game, he simply wasn't even close to good enough to belong there. That he is not even willing to understand that is annoying as hell to me as a fan. Zero accountability for playing terribly for the bulk of the season so far - instead, just blame it on everyone else: "I've been asked to play a different role for the good of the team."

Please.

he has sucked. I didn't say he hasn't. but he's being put in a new position. we ran our offense for amar'e last year. we don't do that anymore. now he has to fit his game around carmelo and the lin/chandler pick and roll. it's an adjustment he's going to have to make. he hasn't been doing a good job though . . . if he can get his jumper back up to snuff and maybe start backing his man down in the low block instead of trying to face-up there, he'll be alright . . . also it's hard for him to as efficient as he was in the past because he's not getting easy looks from the pick and roll nearly as much anymore. it's not just decreased volume, it's a different quality of shots.

amar'e has a big ego. he doesn't like to hold himself accountable. i don't like that about him, but I'm not too mad about his attitude. this is what the team needs out of him now. we're not going to run our offense for him anymore and he's not going to score 25ppg, and it seems like he's okay with that.

Riot Randolph · Post #567 » by **Riot Randolph** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:27 pm

We dont even need his old explosiveness all we need is his midrange j to drop....it was mney last yeaelr and now they all manage to rattpe out

SelbyCobra · Post #568 » by **SelbyCobra** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:24 pm

knicksosmoove wrote:
SelbyCobra wrote:If he hit shots at the same frequency he did last year - or even close to it - he'd still be an All-Star this year.

He's not an All-Star this year because he's sucked, not because of the role he's played. He didn't sacrifice the All-Star game, he simply wasn't even close to good enough to belong there. That he is not even willing to understand that is annoying as hell to me as a fan. Zero accountability for playing terribly for the bulk of the season so far - instead, just blame it on everyone else: "I've been asked to play a different role for the good of the team."

Please.

he has sucked. I didn't say he hasn't. but he's being put in a new position. we ran our offense for amar'e last year. we don't do that anymore. now he has to fit his game around carmelo and the lin/chandler pick and roll. it's an adjustment he's going to have to make. he hasn't been doing a good job though . . . if he can get his jumper back up to snuff and maybe start backing his man down in the low block instead of trying to face-up there, he'll be alright . . . also it's hard for him to as efficient as he was in the past because he's not getting easy looks from the pick and roll nearly as much anymore. it's not just decreased volume, it's a different quality of shots.

amar'e has a big ego. he doesn't like to hold himself accountable. i don't like that about him, but I'm not too mad about his attitude. this is what the team needs out of him now. we're not going to run our offense for him anymore and he's not going to score 25ppg, and it seems like he's okay with that.

I actually agree with everything you wrote, I just personally like more accountability from the stars/team leaders. I find it really of-putting when a player constantly refuses to legitimately accept responsibility, even in the face of having what is unquestionably a disasterous season by his well-established standards. I'd also agree with you that him saying he's accepting a reduced role is good, but I don't believe it's coming from an honest place, so I don't put much stock in it at this point.

To me, when a player can't be honest about his work, especially when it's as bold-faced as Amar'e's 2012 season so far, and he ends up citing external influences as the reason for him not performing ("I'm making sacrifices") it's a problem because that boils down to blaming his teammates and the coaching staff. That's a significant issue from my perspective, actually. That's where the murmurs between lesser teammates reading those quotes of "hey, how about you drain a 17 footer, Stat?" while laughing to each other start.

That's just me, though, and I understand everyone doesn't feel that way.

Post #569 » by **rsavaj** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:03 pm

mrspree15 wrote:Here's a video breakdown of Amare's decline. He wasn't involved with the pick and roll much last year either, but he wasn't this bad.

http://somebasketballthings.wordpress.c ... toudemire/

Holy crap

Who the eff is that wearing Amare's uniform? Damn.

Knicksfan20 · Post #570 » by **Knicksfan20** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:36 pm

Kinda wish there was a way we could get Rudy Gay for Amare...He would be a perfect PF for this team. He plays defense too. WE may lose a little size and weight...but Amare plays like a munchkin anyways.

Axel · Post #571 » by **Axel** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:45 pm

Fake hustle is OK because if he really hustled he would blow out his knees.

darthkiller · Post #572 » by **darthkiller** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:48 pm

amare, douglas for Zbo?

amare for jamison, sessions(who is flipped to lakers for a pick).

amare+ bdiddy for gasol, fisher

amare shumpert for bargnani

qiantom · Post #573 » by **qiantom** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:17 pm

The Knicks don't seem to really have a chance to win the championship since they have such a big contract guy that does not contribute much, and he is not tradeable.

Besart19 · Post #574 » by **Besart19** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:24 pm

Shpati21 wrote:Amar'e has no trade value right now. Knicks just have to try to make the best of him.

Bro, what about this: http://basketball.realgm.com/tradecheck ... de/6042556

Stat, Fields and Jordan
for
Allen, O'neal and Wilcox

NY get rid of his bad contract and clear off the books about 23M that will give us enough cap room to sign FA that can fill the holes. We can keep Allen for less money, and even sign Garnett for MLE. Those money can be used to keep Lin, Smith, Novak, Jeffries and Fields and then sign Nash and another PF(if Garnett wont come here)! Boston would do it as long they already considered a Rondo/Gasol deal. With Garnett leaving the town they will be in desperate need for legit PF to remake a team around Pierce. This year with his extra weight can play at C until Garnett is still there (at PF) and after this summer, he could be ready and back in shape to bounce back and play 4.

NY hypotetical rotation:
Chandler/Jeffries
Garnett/Jorts/Novak
Anthony/Shumpert/Novak
Smith/Shumpert/Allen or Fields
Lin/Nash/Davis or any vet availible for a min contract

Imagine just how lethal we'd be from downtown with Allen, Novak, Lin, Nash, Smith, Anthony, Jorts and Davis(or any other vet)...

So, would you like these ideas/moves?! If yes, please forward it to Grunnie and lets hope will happen!

xsaberx · Post #575 » by **xsaberx** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:40 pm

Can anyone think of a big man from the past that had a game similar to amare? Was this player abel to age well - change his game to his changing body?

Kemp seems like a sort of comparison, but he never had a good jumper, never was the scorer amare is, didn't have the heart, and fell off mostly due to alcohol and mental issues...

I think Amare will get better as the season goes on: maybe 90% of last year - his added weight, the lack of prep and recovery time, and his mind have much to do with his dropoff. But I do think his effectiveness will decline unless he is able to develop his game and not only rely on athleticism. If he's making his mid-range he is deadly with his speed and explosion, but even if his speed and explosion recover to a degree, this aspect of his game is obviously going to decline. Does he have the potential to find new ways to be effective? Maybe he should spend next summer with The Dream.

seren · Post #576 » by **seren** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:54 pm

I think Webber minus the passing is the best comparison. Just like him, Amare is taking his game further from the basket.

Orange Mamba · Post #577 » by **Orange Mamba** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:54 pm

darthkiller wrote:amare, douglas for Zbo?

amare for jamison, sessions(who is flipped to lakers for a pick).

amare+ bdiddy for gasol, fisher

amare shumpert for bargnani

The first trade would be interesting to say the least lol. But I like the second one the most.

prophet_of_rage · Post #578 » by **prophet_of_rage** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:57 pm

For all you saying amar'e needs to go get a low post game how would that fit in with his role? He won't get the block with Tyson there in the pick and roll. He's being asked to be a shooter when he was never really a shooter. He was a rhythm guy who got hot on pullup jumpers not spot ups.

And if people would actually read the complete articles instead of the truncated realgm wiretap headlines you'd know this comes from the NYPost and he says that he's not the same player any more.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/knicks/m ... SqIhqRSeaO

melo mvp 15 · Post #579 » by **melo mvp 15** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:04 pm

BKrab3 wrote:
darthkiller wrote:amare, douglas for Zbo?

amare for jamison, sessions(who is flipped to lakers for a pick).

amare+ bdiddy for gasol, fisher

amare shumpert for bargnani

The first trade would be interesting to say the least lol. But I like the second one the most.

Really, I thought that was the worst of the four by far.

Memphis doesn't ever consider the first one.
NY shouldn't think of the 2nd one.
The LA-NYK is actually really good IMO. Both sides say yes at the deadline if it were put on the table.
For the TOR one, take out Shumpert and possibly add a bad contract from Toronto... and you got a deal.

J9Starks3 · Post #580 » by **J9Starks3** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 6:34 pm

xsaberx wrote:Can anyone think of a big man from the past that had a game similar to amare? Was this player abel to age well - change his game to his changing body?

Kemp seems like a sort of comparison, but he never had a good jumper, never was the scorer amare is, didn't have the heart, and fell off mostly due to alcohol and mental issues...

I think Amare will get better as the season goes on: maybe 90% of last year - his added weight, the lack of prep and recovery time, and his mind have much to do with his dropoff. But I do think his effectiveness will decline unless he is able to develop his game and not only rely on athleticism. If he's making his mid-range he is deadly with his speed and explosion, but even if his speed and explosion recover to a degree, this aspect of his game is obviously going to decline. Does he have the potential to find new ways to be effective? Maybe he should spend next summer with The Dream.

McDyess is the best comparison...both in athletic ability, to knee injuries, to the final phases of their careers being jump shooters.... as well team dynamic going from the Suns to the Knicks.