Julius Randle IS a 'cornerstone' player

[prophet_of_rage]

Well its true that Randle is not as good a Lebron. He cant carry a group of bums and zero offense players to the finals all by himself. I guess teams with players like Doncic, Trae, Zion, Fox, Ja, KAT, Bam, Lavine, Sexton should get of those guys too since they also have a losing record and its all those players fault.

Could we expand it to teams that are only a game or two over .500? Get rid of losers like Jokic, Muray, Sabonis, Siakam, Tatum, Brown, Curry etc

Tank for eternity!

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I'll take 2 years thanks. But this front office no matter who sits in the seats can't help themselves. They just can't play young lottery picks and live with the results. We honestly tanked 1 year and that was mostly by virtue of KP being out. Even that included Deandre Jordan and Kanter playing 26+ minutes a game. Trading Randle if any team would actually trade anything of value for him is the right move if you want this franchise to have any hope of finals contention in the next 5-6 years.

You won't get that with rookie guys. Most of them take 5 to 6 years to mature. How does that get you to finals contention?

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[Gravy]

The West is better than the East, so first we'd need to add a little context here, you're comparing players who are having "down" team seasons in the West, to a guy who is having his first semi successful team season in his career.

Randle is a supporting player, that's the first problem, nobody should be building around him. If our supporting cast is so bad and he's willing us to wins, how much are you willing to pay the all-star Randle, I want some of you to answer this. All-stars get paid, right?

I'm using the same logic yall are which is we have a mediocre record so we should get rid of our best player and start all over again.

Pay Randle as much as an all star should get.

Flawed logic, because it throws out context completely to try and justify the point you're trying to make. We're 10-10 vs the East and 4-6 vs the West, the Mavs are 7-10 vs the West and 6-5 vs the East. Half the guys you named have already made the playoffs in less time than Randle, who has yet to get there.

Randle getting an all-star type contract, may as well just start up the 2024-2027 tank thread now. If Randle is getting paid like an all-star, it's hard to build because that's 30-35% of the cap.

The Mavs also has KP to help out Luka once in a while while Randle has R no J.

What I'm saying is lets see Randle can do with a legit backcourt. If you dont think the FO can find a better pg than Elfrid Payton then no amount of tanking is going to help them either.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

There are some parallels for sure. But the one thing we have over Orlando which is a pretty big advantage is the market. Free agents don’t go to Orlando if they’re mediocre. The Knicks on the other hand would reactive crazy consideration all of sudden just for showing promise

We can't rely on the free agent market, that has been our biggest failure so far, the constant hope that we'll land the next star in free agency. We have to develop this superstar player, or trade for him (Not LaVine/Beal) when they're available.

And cant really rely on tanking either.. that avenue is poisonous and toxic. I’m rather build on the one really good young player we have (Randle) and see what avenues open up front there than dump him and basically start from scratch again

We're past the point of tanking this year, but that doesn't mean we should make the playoffs. Being competitive this year and just missing the playoffs would be a better outcome than making the playoffs and getting our doors blown off by the Sixers, Bucks or Nets. The Hornets were competitive last year, missed the playoffs and got LaMelo, how would getting the 8th seed last year benefitted them?

Everyone wants to make the playoffs till the Nets are up 3-0 and about to win by 35 in the Garden and the team who misses the playoffs by 1 game ends up with Cade or Kuminga.

[prophet_of_rage]

I saw Nikola Vucevic mentioned in here, and I can't believe some of you don't see the parallels between Randle and him. The Magic looked like they were ready to move on from him, he was going into the last year of his deal and they drafted a young center to potentially groom for the future. Then Vucevic has a career year, they sign him to a 4 year $100 million, they glue their draft pick to the bench despite nice advanced stats, they go 42-40 and earn the right to lose 4-1 to the Raptors, then they go 33-40 and still make the playoffs because this is the East after all, and lose 4-1 to the Bucks.


Vucevic is a nice player, he'd be a great number 3 guy on the Raptors or Celtics, but you don't build around him. Randle could be a good number 3, or an excellent 6th man, you don't build around him as part of your core. There isn't a single contending team that would have Randle as part of their core, and we're about to build around him as though he's Embiid

There are some parallels for sure. But the one thing we have over Orlando which is a pretty big advantage is the market. Free agents don’t go to Orlando if they’re mediocre. The Knicks on the other hand would reactive crazy consideration all of sudden just for showing promise

We can't rely on the free agent market, that has been our biggest failure so far, the constant hope that we'll land the next star in free agency. We have to develop this superstar player, or trade for him (Not LaVine/Beal) when they're available.

We need to identify talent and create a balanced team not keep hitting reset every two years.

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[DaGawd]

We can't rely on the free agent market, that has been our biggest failure so far, the constant hope that we'll land the next star in free agency. We have to develop this superstar player, or trade for him (Not LaVine/Beal) when they're available.

And cant really rely on tanking either.. that avenue is poisonous and toxic. I’m rather build on the one really good young player we have (Randle) and see what avenues open up front there than dump him and basically start from scratch again

We're past the point of tanking this year, but that doesn't mean we should make the playoffs. Being competitive this year and just missing the playoffs would be a better outcome than making the playoffs and getting our doors blown off by the Sixers, Bucks or Nets. The Hornets were competitive last year, missed the playoffs and got LaMelo, how would getting the 8th seed last year benefitted them?

Everyone wants to make the playoffs till the Nets are up 3-0 and about to win by 35 in the Garden and the team who misses the playoffs by 1 game ends up with Cade or Kuminga.

We not getting Cade or none of those guys by just missing the playoffs either so I don’t understand the argument for being good enough to just miss the playoffs. Get these young guys a taste of playoff experience and go from there. It’s a process. The Nets endured a couple of first round exits before they got their big 3

[Tarantaraptars]

I wonder if he gets allstar considerations

He definitely should. He's been playing great this season.

Other teams and analysts are noticing and talking about him - he was laughed at last season.

I'll bet money that he'll get some consideration, or votes, from those who round out the rest of the rosters

Oh for sure.
Coaches still have say no?

Same Way I feel about FVV. Deserving but who knows.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I'm using the same logic yall are which is we have a mediocre record so we should get rid of our best player and start all over again.

Pay Randle as much as an all star should get.

Flawed logic, because it throws out context completely to try and justify the point you're trying to make. We're 10-10 vs the East and 4-6 vs the West, the Mavs are 7-10 vs the West and 6-5 vs the East. Half the guys you named have already made the playoffs in less time than Randle, who has yet to get there.

Randle getting an all-star type contract, may as well just start up the 2024-2027 tank thread now. If Randle is getting paid like an all-star, it's hard to build because that's 30-35% of the cap.

The Mavs also has KP to help out Luka once in a while while Randle has R no J.

What I'm saying is lets see Randle can do with a legit backcourt. If you dont think the FO can find a better pg than Elfrid Payton then no amount of tanking is going to help them either.

KP has missed a quarter of the season, the West is better, the Grizz are 6-7 vs the west and 7-5 vs the East despite the fact JA missed like a month. Those are just excuses.

I don't want to build around Randle, I'd lose faith in the front office if he's the player we're deciding to be a major piece of the core. It would be like the Clippers deciding to build around Tobias Harris rather than trading him, a smart front office will realize the guy isn't someone you make your number 1 or 2 guy.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

And cant really rely on tanking either.. that avenue is poisonous and toxic. I’m rather build on the one really good young player we have (Randle) and see what avenues open up front there than dump him and basically start from scratch again

We're past the point of tanking this year, but that doesn't mean we should make the playoffs. Being competitive this year and just missing the playoffs would be a better outcome than making the playoffs and getting our doors blown off by the Sixers, Bucks or Nets. The Hornets were competitive last year, missed the playoffs and got LaMelo, how would getting the 8th seed last year benefitted them?

Everyone wants to make the playoffs till the Nets are up 3-0 and about to win by 35 in the Garden and the team who misses the playoffs by 1 game ends up with Cade or Kuminga.

We not getting Cade or none of those guys by just missing the playoffs either so I don’t understand the argument for being good enough to just miss the playoffs. Get these young guys a taste of playoff experience and go from there. It’s a process. The Nets endured a couple of first round exits before they got their big 3

You don't need to be the worst team in the league to move up in the draft, the Hornets had the 9th worst record and drafted 3rd. We need at least one more quality young player, everyone keeps saying how bad this supporting cast is, and still wants to make the playoffs? Makes no sense.

How has the playoff experience helped the Magic? The Nets have 1 player left over from those playoff teams you're talking about, everyone else is gone. What KD/Kyrie free agency tandem are we going to sign in the next 5 years that will allow us to trade everything for a MVP? That situation is so far out from the norm it isn't even worth mentioning.

[DaGawd]

We're past the point of tanking this year, but that doesn't mean we should make the playoffs. Being competitive this year and just missing the playoffs would be a better outcome than making the playoffs and getting our doors blown off by the Sixers, Bucks or Nets. The Hornets were competitive last year, missed the playoffs and got LaMelo, how would getting the 8th seed last year benefitted them?

Everyone wants to make the playoffs till the Nets are up 3-0 and about to win by 35 in the Garden and the team who misses the playoffs by 1 game ends up with Cade or Kuminga.

We not getting Cade or none of those guys by just missing the playoffs either so I don’t understand the argument for being good enough to just miss the playoffs. Get these young guys a taste of playoff experience and go from there. It’s a process. The Nets endured a couple of first round exits before they got their big 3

You don't need to be the worst team in the league to move up in the draft, the Hornets had the 9th worst record and drafted 3rd.

How has the playoff experience helped the Magic? The Nets have 1 player left over from those playoff teams you're talking about, everyone else is gone. What KD/Kyrie free agency tandem are we going to sign in the next 5 years that will allow us to trade everything for a MVP? That situation is so far out from the norm it isn't even worth mentioning.

You really ready to bank on this volatile ass lottery system moving us up? Lol..... and all teams have different paths to building their way up to contenders. Like I said why not attract or trade for another really good player to play with Randle? Why we only have to depend on lottery picks who mostly need a few years before they’re really ready to affect winning? Let’s keep all avenues open. There’s been plenty of teams who found gems outside of the lottery. Knicks have been doing that as late also (and sucking in the lottery... go figure) just keep on identifying good players where ever you pick.

[3toheadmelo]

Flawed logic, because it throws out context completely to try and justify the point you're trying to make. We're 10-10 vs the East and 4-6 vs the West, the Mavs are 7-10 vs the West and 6-5 vs the East. Half the guys you named have already made the playoffs in less time than Randle, who has yet to get there.

Randle getting an all-star type contract, may as well just start up the 2024-2027 tank thread now. If Randle is getting paid like an all-star, it's hard to build because that's 30-35% of the cap.

The Mavs also has KP to help out Luka once in a while while Randle has R no J.

What I'm saying is lets see Randle can do with a legit backcourt. If you dont think the FO can find a better pg than Elfrid Payton then no amount of tanking is going to help them either.

KP has missed a quarter of the season, the West is better, the Grizz are 6-7 vs the west and 7-5 vs the East despite the fact JA missed like a month. Those are just excuses.

I don't want to build around Randle, I'd lose faith in the front office if he's the player we're deciding to be a major piece of the core. It would be like the Clippers deciding to build around Tobias Harris rather than trading him, a smart front office will realize the guy isn't someone you make your number 1 or 2 guy.

Did you just compare Randle to Tobias Harris

[3toheadmelo]

Me seeing everyone gang up on NoDopeOnSunday right now

[NoDopeOnSundays]

The Mavs also has KP to help out Luka once in a while while Randle has R no J.

What I'm saying is lets see Randle can do with a legit backcourt. If you dont think the FO can find a better pg than Elfrid Payton then no amount of tanking is going to help them either.

KP has missed a quarter of the season, the West is better, the Grizz are 6-7 vs the west and 7-5 vs the East despite the fact JA missed like a month. Those are just excuses.

I don't want to build around Randle, I'd lose faith in the front office if he's the player we're deciding to be a major piece of the core. It would be like the Clippers deciding to build around Tobias Harris rather than trading him, a smart front office will realize the guy isn't someone you make your number 1 or 2 guy.

Did you just compare Randle to Tobias Harris

The Clippers were 30-25 and the 8th seed in the West when they traded Harris, who was averaging 21ppg, 8rpg, 3apg on 50/43/88.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Me seeing everyone gang up on NoDopeOnSunday right now

And your henchmen still losing

[Chanel Bomber]

Tou think we even have 14 wins without him? I wonder ehat Chanel has to say about this statement? Is Thibs as big a loser as Payton?

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I think it's a poor choice of words from Thibs there too.

I think all this talk of "winning" is the byproduct of low expectations when it comes to this franchise. The Knicks are so associated with losing that sub-50% mediocrity (the 14-16 record) is now being promoted as winning. I don't find it disingenuous as much as I consider it a subconscious bias. It still doesn't make it right, or accurate.

I think Randle has a legitimate claim to become an All-Star this year but "winning" is not some sort of separator.

You said Payton had a loser mentality for using the word winning. That's different from a poor xhoice of words.

I just wondered if you think Thibs is a loser too.

I still say you.can be winning withoutnhaving a winning record same as you.can be losing without having a losing record.

It's a short snapshot of a cutrent situation not the overall picture.

The Raptors have been winning lately but just got to 500. The Lakers have been losing lately but have a plus 500 record.

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I do think Payton is a losing NBA player. A loser at the NBA level, if you will. He's never made the playoffs or averaged a positive net rating in 7 years. Contrary to Thibs, Payton doesn't know what winning in the NBA even feels like. Him describing whatever record we had at the time as "winning" is inaccurate. If I had to articulate why that is, I would speculate that it's the result of the Knicks being so bad for so many years and Payton himself being so close to winning for once that it actually feels like winning, even though it's not. Again, low standards and low expectations.

Payton is the active player in the NBA with the second most games played without a playoff appearance. The twelfth most all-time. Randle is not far behind, but I think quite clearly the eye test, the boxscore stats and the advanced stats show that he's actually helped the team get closer to winning this year, and it's easier to project him contributing on a winning team.

Saying the Knicks are winning is inaccurate. All-Star bids are based on the whole season played until now, not based on a recent winning streak or a losing streak. The Knicks are 5-5 in their last 10 games anyway, it's not even like they've been on a tear, since you alluded to the idea that "winning lately" (the Raptors for instance) can qualify as winning. But I highly doubt that you've heard the Raptors say they've been winning. Because they know they hadn't been winning until they finally got back to a .500 record.

Honestly you're again changing the definition of what actually "winning" actually means, just like you were trying to change the definition of "wide-open" just because the actual facts don't serve your narratives. You might as well create your own dictionary and see if that catches on.

[Gravy]

Flawed logic, because it throws out context completely to try and justify the point you're trying to make. We're 10-10 vs the East and 4-6 vs the West, the Mavs are 7-10 vs the West and 6-5 vs the East. Half the guys you named have already made the playoffs in less time than Randle, who has yet to get there.

Randle getting an all-star type contract, may as well just start up the 2024-2027 tank thread now. If Randle is getting paid like an all-star, it's hard to build because that's 30-35% of the cap.

The Mavs also has KP to help out Luka once in a while while Randle has R no J.

What I'm saying is lets see Randle can do with a legit backcourt. If you dont think the FO can find a better pg than Elfrid Payton then no amount of tanking is going to help them either.

KP has missed a quarter of the season, the West is better, the Grizz are 6-7 vs the west and 7-5 vs the East despite the fact JA missed like a month. Those are just excuses.

I don't want to build around Randle, I'd lose faith in the front office if he's the player we're deciding to be a major piece of the core. It would be like the Clippers deciding to build around Tobias Harris rather than trading him, a smart front office will realize the guy isn't someone you make your number 1 or 2 guy.

Unless I'm mixing up the years the Clippers traded away Harris and still made the playoffs as the 8th seed. They didnt even tank, they knew they were going to sign Kawhi.

[Chanel Bomber]

We're past the point of tanking this year, but that doesn't mean we should make the playoffs. Being competitive this year and just missing the playoffs would be a better outcome than making the playoffs and getting our doors blown off by the Sixers, Bucks or Nets. The Hornets were competitive last year, missed the playoffs and got LaMelo, how would getting the 8th seed last year benefitted them?

Everyone wants to make the playoffs till the Nets are up 3-0 and about to win by 35 in the Garden and the team who misses the playoffs by 1 game ends up with Cade or Kuminga.

We not getting Cade or none of those guys by just missing the playoffs either so I don’t understand the argument for being good enough to just miss the playoffs. Get these young guys a taste of playoff experience and go from there. It’s a process. The Nets endured a couple of first round exits before they got their big 3

You don't need to be the worst team in the league to move up in the draft, the Hornets had the 9th worst record and drafted 3rd. We need at least one more quality young player, everyone keeps saying how bad this supporting cast is, and still wants to make the playoffs? Makes no sense.

How has the playoff experience helped the Magic? The Nets have 1 player left over from those playoff teams you're talking about, everyone else is gone. What KD/Kyrie free agency tandem are we going to sign in the next 5 years that will allow us to trade everything for a MVP? That situation is so far out from the norm it isn't even worth mentioning.

I generally share your fears but I must point out that a playoff appearance would probably be invaluable for Mitch, RJ and Quickley. We have a better young core than the Magic, whose "blue-chipper "recently tore his ACL and suffered a myriad of injuries. Let's hope their development doesn't stall like Gordon's though.

But there's an upside to having RJ and Mitch get a taste of playoff basketball as starters (and seeing Quickley only average 18 minutes a game lol).

[NoDopeOnSundays]

The Mavs also has KP to help out Luka once in a while while Randle has R no J.

What I'm saying is lets see Randle can do with a legit backcourt. If you dont think the FO can find a better pg than Elfrid Payton then no amount of tanking is going to help them either.

KP has missed a quarter of the season, the West is better, the Grizz are 6-7 vs the west and 7-5 vs the East despite the fact JA missed like a month. Those are just excuses.

I don't want to build around Randle, I'd lose faith in the front office if he's the player we're deciding to be a major piece of the core. It would be like the Clippers deciding to build around Tobias Harris rather than trading him, a smart front office will realize the guy isn't someone you make your number 1 or 2 guy.

Unless I'm mixing up the years the Clippers traded away Harris and still made the playoffs as the 8th seed. They didnt even tank, they knew they were going to sign Kawhi.

They didn't know they were getting Kawhi, they thought they were, but they didn't want to be locked into Tobias Harris regardless of what happened. They were the 8th seed when they traded Harris.

[3toheadmelo]

KP has missed a quarter of the season, the West is better, the Grizz are 6-7 vs the west and 7-5 vs the East despite the fact JA missed like a month. Those are just excuses.

I don't want to build around Randle, I'd lose faith in the front office if he's the player we're deciding to be a major piece of the core. It would be like the Clippers deciding to build around Tobias Harris rather than trading him, a smart front office will realize the guy isn't someone you make your number 1 or 2 guy.

Did you just compare Randle to Tobias Harris

The Clippers were 30-25 and the 8th seed in the West when they traded Harris, who was averaging 21ppg, 8rpg, 3apg on 50/43/88.

Randle: 23 PPG, 11 RPG 5.5 APG
Tobias: 21 PPG. 8 RPG 2.7 APG

Randle’s superior playmaking makes him a much better player

[3toheadmelo]

KP has missed a quarter of the season, the West is better, the Grizz are 6-7 vs the west and 7-5 vs the East despite the fact JA missed like a month. Those are just excuses.

I don't want to build around Randle, I'd lose faith in the front office if he's the player we're deciding to be a major piece of the core. It would be like the Clippers deciding to build around Tobias Harris rather than trading him, a smart front office will realize the guy isn't someone you make your number 1 or 2 guy.

Unless I'm mixing up the years the Clippers traded away Harris and still made the playoffs as the 8th seed. They didnt even tank, they knew they were going to sign Kawhi.

They didn't know they were getting Kawhi, they thought they were, but they didn't want to be locked into Tobias Harris regardless of what happened. They were the 8th seed when they traded Harris.

Yes they did. Everybody knew Kawhi was going to the Clippers lol

[NoDopeOnSundays]

We not getting Cade or none of those guys by just missing the playoffs either so I don’t understand the argument for being good enough to just miss the playoffs. Get these young guys a taste of playoff experience and go from there. It’s a process. The Nets endured a couple of first round exits before they got their big 3

You don't need to be the worst team in the league to move up in the draft, the Hornets had the 9th worst record and drafted 3rd. We need at least one more quality young player, everyone keeps saying how bad this supporting cast is, and still wants to make the playoffs? Makes no sense.

How has the playoff experience helped the Magic? The Nets have 1 player left over from those playoff teams you're talking about, everyone else is gone. What KD/Kyrie free agency tandem are we going to sign in the next 5 years that will allow us to trade everything for a MVP? That situation is so far out from the norm it isn't even worth mentioning.

I generally share your fears but I must point out that a playoff appearance would probably be invaluable for Mitch, RJ and Quickley. We have a better young core than the Magic, whose "blue-chipper "recently tore his ACL and suffered a myriad of injuries. Let's hope their development doesn't stall like Gordon's though.

But there's an upside to having RJ and Mitch get a taste of playoff basketball as starters (and seeing Quickley only average 18 minutes a game lol).

I think making it to the playoffs as the 6-8 seed really doesn't help as much as people think, I could see if we were doing it off the back of all young players, but 2 of our starters are positions we will need to fill regardless of what happens. We're at a talent deficit and making the playoffs wont really help that much, look at all the guys who have developed so far without the playoffs, Randle hasn't been there yet and people want to build around him.

Just look at the last couple 8 seeds, the Magic, the Pistons the year before, the Wiz in 2017-2018, the Bulls in 2016-2017, there was no growth or forward momentum from any of these teams. Nobody remembers the Pistons core that was 22-25 years old, KCP, Tobias, Morris, Drummond and Jackson, they went 44-38, no forward progress at all.