BaF Season 4- Opening Night 12/1- (Announcement page 57)

[3toheadmelo]

I think we all/majority agree:

No tiered release - all players released on same day

Public bidding/Sub-forum/Google Doc is looking to be a consensus. It looks to be the most feasible way to reduce Bish's workload without overhauling FA as much. I think the public bidding will reduce some of those "bad faith bids" that people mention and will help everyone see in realtime where players and their $$ stand

agreed I am also NOT in favor in limiting someone bids per day. Say someone has a couple major FA and the bidding is fast a furious that day. They end up losing out and they were all good faith bids...but then they can't pivot to another bid later in the day?

If the bids are public we wont have to worry about bish work load we would just have to make aware there was a process where every GM new how to properly make a winning bid. That was the onus is on us and bish just have to verify time stamps and announce winning bids...a lot easier that doing all the inquiries and submitting bids himself.

You’re better off keeping them private then if minimum bids aren’t allowed. There will be tons of bids in bad faith when steals are being public to everyone.

[NewEra]

agreed the nets got better and KD and Kyrie went there...there 2 or 3 years before that didn't play that much of a role on them signing there. It what they did recently.

It can't be just hey this team has been good for 5 straight years they get every benefit. I agree they deserve there due and past history does play a part in FA. The only team that really got screwed for being a good team was GS...but he was in such a unique situation where the team he won it with was totally gone.

Fore example if he kept Westbrook and a few guys he wouldn't have taken a "star" player hit or a happiness hit. He choose extra cap space over the ratings. But that was New Era choice. He still came out pretty good so I don't think the rating system is off its how bish manages the bids...that is why the public sub forum and google docs seems to be a decent solution in my eyes.

I wasn’t going to keep Westbrook for the sake of a ranking. I won a chip, but Russ underperformed in many ways. I was going to do what was best for my team.

Agreed and personally I think you did make the right choice even though your ratings weren't as good you were able to distribute the money better. But moving everyone on your roster does have an effect on ratings, it has to. You can't be like hey look I'm so good I won a championship (you are a very good GM btw ) look at my history. And then someone says but your team doesn't look like a championship team so just trust me. That is just speculation and bish can only judge you at the the time of FA starting along with other categories which you got a high ranking from history.

I agree history should be a part, but I think you are arguing history should weight more...which I disagree...I think they all should be equally evaluated. Past is important and future is important as well.

I get it, and I’m not attacking Bish either, but I think the “player happiness” category is too subjective. I just want improvements to be made, or another category to be considered. Players should be happy to play for a successful GM. If Dallas gutted their team, and had a lot of money to spend, as a player I’d be happy to go there because I know what that GM is capable of.

[Smash3]

I think we all/majority agree:

No tiered release - all players released on same day

Public bidding/Sub-forum/Google Doc is looking to be a consensus. It looks to be the most feasible way to reduce Bish's workload without overhauling FA as much. I think the public bidding will reduce some of those "bad faith bids" that people mention and will help everyone see in realtime where players and their $$ stand

agreed I am also NOT in favor in limiting someone bids per day. Say someone has a couple major FA and the bidding is fast a furious that day. They end up losing out and they were all good faith bids...but then they can't pivot to another bid later in the day?

If the bids are public we wont have to worry about bish work load we would just have to make aware there was a process where every GM new how to properly make a winning bid. That was the onus is on us and bish just have to verify time stamps and announce winning bids...a lot easier that doing all the inquiries and submitting bids himself.

You’re better off keeping them private then if minimum bids aren’t allowed. There will be tons of bids in bad faith when steals are being public to everyone.

this is what I'm saying too, if the problem is bad faith bids, teams who submit bad faith bids will have real time information to keep making bad faith bids all day

[2010]

They shouldn’t be allowed to do it. You should bid on the players you want. Why play the game to bid up players you don’t even want to land? They’ll initially hold the bag yes, but eventually they’ll just trade the player.

Considering timing is everything. You're saying this NOW?

Weren't you one of the ones defending the fuggery wit the profiles and shenanigans to manipulate the market to inflate bids?

I was one of the MAIN ones who called out Hoffa’s shenanigans when it came to announcing a closing bids. I often put an example in this thread of exactly how he would post them. Time and time again I mentioned it was wrong. As a result, a rule was put in place.

I stand corrected.

I, and most GMs had no problem with the player profiles PRIOR to free agency. This had nothing to do with “Manipulating the market to inflate bids”. That was YOUR beef.

...but the shenanigans before free agency and during free agency were both blantant market manipulation attempts in bad faith which are not good for the game. I don't place one above the other.

[mpharris36]

I think we all/majority agree:

No tiered release - all players released on same day

Public bidding/Sub-forum/Google Doc is looking to be a consensus. It looks to be the most feasible way to reduce Bish's workload without overhauling FA as much. I think the public bidding will reduce some of those "bad faith bids" that people mention and will help everyone see in realtime where players and their $$ stand

agreed I am also NOT in favor in limiting someone bids per day. Say someone has a couple major FA and the bidding is fast a furious that day. They end up losing out and they were all good faith bids...but then they can't pivot to another bid later in the day?

If the bids are public we wont have to worry about bish work load we would just have to make aware there was a process where every GM new how to properly make a winning bid. That was the onus is on us and bish just have to verify time stamps and announce winning bids...a lot easier that doing all the inquiries and submitting bids himself.

You’re better off keeping them private then if minimum bids aren’t allowed. There will be tons of bids in bad faith when steals are being public to everyone.

but again you are still limited to your cap space. If someone wants to make a bad faith bid they just let that guy get stuck with him. If you think the FA is still undervalued then you make another bid. I don't think people "bidding" up players hurt the game. It happens all the time. Teams don't want to see rivals come away with guys for dirt cheap even if they don't specifically want a player.

The thing is if its "real time" now with bidding you don't have to worry about waiting on bish to update...you know when you are beat so you can either bid again or pivot to a new player in real team.

[3toheadmelo]

agreed I am also NOT in favor in limiting someone bids per day. Say someone has a couple major FA and the bidding is fast a furious that day. They end up losing out and they were all good faith bids...but then they can't pivot to another bid later in the day?

If the bids are public we wont have to worry about bish work load we would just have to make aware there was a process where every GM new how to properly make a winning bid. That was the onus is on us and bish just have to verify time stamps and announce winning bids...a lot easier that doing all the inquiries and submitting bids himself.

You’re better off keeping them private then if minimum bids aren’t allowed. There will be tons of bids in bad faith when steals are being public to everyone.

this is what I'm saying too, if the problem is bad faith bids, teams who submit bad faith bids will have real time information to keep making bad faith bids all day

Yeah. It’s going to be total chaos and will make bish’s job 10x harder.

[mpharris36]

I wasn’t going to keep Westbrook for the sake of a ranking. I won a chip, but Russ underperformed in many ways. I was going to do what was best for my team.

Agreed and personally I think you did make the right choice even though your ratings weren't as good you were able to distribute the money better. But moving everyone on your roster does have an effect on ratings, it has to. You can't be like hey look I'm so good I won a championship (you are a very good GM btw ) look at my history. And then someone says but your team doesn't look like a championship team so just trust me. That is just speculation and bish can only judge you at the the time of FA starting along with other categories which you got a high ranking from history.

I agree history should be a part, but I think you are arguing history should weight more...which I disagree...I think they all should be equally evaluated. Past is important and future is important as well.

I get it, and I’m not attacking Bish either, but I think the “player happiness” category is too subjective. I just want improvements to be made, or another category to be considered. Players should be happy to play for a successful GM. If Dallas gutted their team, and had a lot of money to spend, as a player I’d be happy to go there because I know what that GM is capable of.

if you wanted to adjust play happiness to something else I think the league would listen but right now we have

History Success
Star
Future
Happiness

do you have something in mind that would take over for happiness?

[Slicin N Dicin]

agreed I am also NOT in favor in limiting someone bids per day. Say someone has a couple major FA and the bidding is fast a furious that day. They end up losing out and they were all good faith bids...but then they can't pivot to another bid later in the day?

If the bids are public we wont have to worry about bish work load we would just have to make aware there was a process where every GM new how to properly make a winning bid. That was the onus is on us and bish just have to verify time stamps and announce winning bids...a lot easier that doing all the inquiries and submitting bids himself.

You’re better off keeping them private then if minimum bids aren’t allowed. There will be tons of bids in bad faith when steals are being public to everyone.

this is what I'm saying too, if the problem is bad faith bids, teams who submit bad faith bids will have real time information to keep making bad faith bids all day

But people making bids in good faith shouldn't be punished either - MP's scenario is realistic, if you're in multiple bidding wars on players and you get beat, you shouldn't be punished and miss out on other players because of a big cap. It's tough to find a one fits all solution, but it's also realistic..we may hate bad faith bids but teams also send out poisin pill contracts to deter other teams or make it difficult for them to re-sign their own FA's in real life.

To me we shouldn't potentially punish players who are operating in good faith just because there are a few GM's who try to run the bag up on players

We'll never completely eliminate good vs bad faith bids (i hate saying that repeatedly lmao) but we can make Bish's life a hell of a lot easier

[mpharris36]

You’re better off keeping them private then if minimum bids aren’t allowed. There will be tons of bids in bad faith when steals are being public to everyone.

this is what I'm saying too, if the problem is bad faith bids, teams who submit bad faith bids will have real time information to keep making bad faith bids all day

Yeah. It’s going to be total chaos and will make bish’s job 10x harder.

how would it make bish job harder if we are the ones submitting the bids? Bish just has to look if the last bid is time stamped and won. He doesn't have to see how many bids were accumulated over the 10 hour period.

[2010]

Before we make bids public we should explore other ways to reduce Bish workload. Public bids will only inflate all the players salaries, teams will see players going for cheap and just increase the bid – for $1 players as well as players like Dinwiddie/Ibaka.

We all agree on reducing Bish workload but public bids will change the dynamics of the whole FA process.

Minimum bids per day per GM will still facilitate steals and bargains being had. Teams will be forced to prioritize due to bid limitations. Good signings will still fall through the cracks.

But again, I emphasize GMs holding bird rights should benefit from one more bid per day than the limit on players GMs do not have bird rights for.

[NewEra]

Considering timing is everything. You're saying this NOW?

Weren't you one of the ones defending the fuggery wit the profiles and shenanigans to manipulate the market to inflate bids?

I was one of the MAIN ones who called out Hoffa’s shenanigans when it came to announcing a closing bids. I often put an example in this thread of exactly how he would post them. Time and time again I mentioned it was wrong. As a result, a rule was put in place.

I stand corrected.

I, and most GMs had no problem with the player profiles PRIOR to free agency. This had nothing to do with “Manipulating the market to inflate bids”. That was YOUR beef.

...but the shenanigans before free agency and during free agency were both blantant market manipulation attempts in bad faith which are not good for the game. I don't place one above the other.

I just don’t think his player profiles had an impact on this Free agency. I do think him admittedly upping the bids on players he never wanted to land did though.

[bringbackhoffa]

I was one of the MAIN ones who called out Hoffa’s shenanigans when it came to announcing a closing bids. I often put an example in this thread of exactly how he would post them. Time and time again I mentioned it was wrong. As a result, a rule was put in place.

I stand corrected.

I, and most GMs had no problem with the player profiles PRIOR to free agency. This had nothing to do with “Manipulating the market to inflate bids”. That was YOUR beef.

...but the shenanigans before free agency and during free agency were both blantant market manipulation attempts in bad faith which are not good for the game. I don't place one above the other.

I just don’t think his player profiles had an impact on this Free agency. I do think him admittedly upping the bids on players he never wanted to land did though.

nothing says you have to beat bids that you think are too high. If i have the cap space i should be allowed to bid how i want. If you beat my bid you obviously believe the player is still an asset at that price

[Slicin N Dicin]

I know we're not at a point yet to vote or make decisions as we're still early in trying to figure this out - but I am strongly against setting a bid cap or limit.

[NewEra]

Agreed and personally I think you did make the right choice even though your ratings weren't as good you were able to distribute the money better. But moving everyone on your roster does have an effect on ratings, it has to. You can't be like hey look I'm so good I won a championship (you are a very good GM btw ) look at my history. And then someone says but your team doesn't look like a championship team so just trust me. That is just speculation and bish can only judge you at the the time of FA starting along with other categories which you got a high ranking from history.

I agree history should be a part, but I think you are arguing history should weight more...which I disagree...I think they all should be equally evaluated. Past is important and future is important as well.

I get it, and I’m not attacking Bish either, but I think the “player happiness” category is too subjective. I just want improvements to be made, or another category to be considered. Players should be happy to play for a successful GM. If Dallas gutted their team, and had a lot of money to spend, as a player I’d be happy to go there because I know what that GM is capable of.

if you wanted to adjust play happiness to something else I think the league would listen but right now we have

History Success
Star
Future
Happiness

do you have something in mind that would take over for happiness?

I’m still brainstorming, but I just wanted to propose it to the league to get thoughts and ideas. Similar to how we’re trying to minimize the workload for Bish.

[Smash3]

Agreed and personally I think you did make the right choice even though your ratings weren't as good you were able to distribute the money better. But moving everyone on your roster does have an effect on ratings, it has to. You can't be like hey look I'm so good I won a championship (you are a very good GM btw ) look at my history. And then someone says but your team doesn't look like a championship team so just trust me. That is just speculation and bish can only judge you at the the time of FA starting along with other categories which you got a high ranking from history.

I agree history should be a part, but I think you are arguing history should weight more...which I disagree...I think they all should be equally evaluated. Past is important and future is important as well.

I get it, and I’m not attacking Bish either, but I think the “player happiness” category is too subjective. I just want improvements to be made, or another category to be considered. Players should be happy to play for a successful GM. If Dallas gutted their team, and had a lot of money to spend, as a player I’d be happy to go there because I know what that GM is capable of.

if you wanted to adjust play happiness to something else I think the league would listen but right now we have

History Success
Star
Future
Happiness

do you have something in mind that would take over for happiness?

I don't get it though? The only reason GSW was ranked lower was because they didn't have any players, which makes sense? What's the problem with the FA ranking system?

[NewEra]

I stand corrected.



...but the shenanigans before free agency and during free agency were both blantant market manipulation attempts in bad faith which are not good for the game. I don't place one above the other.

I just don’t think his player profiles had an impact on this Free agency. I do think him admittedly upping the bids on players he never wanted to land did though.

nothing says you have to beat bids that you think are too high. If i have the cap space i should be allowed to bid how i want. If you beat my bid you obviously believe the player is still an asset at that price

You’re right... which is why ultimately I don’t think there’s a remedy for your sickness.

[3toheadmelo]

agreed I am also NOT in favor in limiting someone bids per day. Say someone has a couple major FA and the bidding is fast a furious that day. They end up losing out and they were all good faith bids...but then they can't pivot to another bid later in the day?

If the bids are public we wont have to worry about bish work load we would just have to make aware there was a process where every GM new how to properly make a winning bid. That was the onus is on us and bish just have to verify time stamps and announce winning bids...a lot easier that doing all the inquiries and submitting bids himself.

You’re better off keeping them private then if minimum bids aren’t allowed. There will be tons of bids in bad faith when steals are being public to everyone.

but again you are still limited to your cap space. If someone wants to make a bad faith bid they just let that guy get stuck with him. If you think the FA is still undervalued then you make another bid. I don't think people "bidding" up players hurt the game. It happens all the time. Teams don't want to see rivals come away with guys for dirt cheap even if they don't specifically want a player.

The thing is if its "real time" now with bidding you don't have to worry about waiting on bish to update...you know when you are beat so you can either bid again or pivot to a new player in real team.

You’re underestimating this. Tons of players are going to get bid on just for bad faith. That’s going to make bish’s job harder. Bish will be looking at an overload of bids trying to keep track of time stamps. I use google docs for my job which is shared to keep track of what we do... that document will be extremely long and confusing.

And ultimately this will prevent steals from happening in the game. Which basically kills competition all together. So less competition and more bad faith bids? Nah. I’m good

[mpharris36]

minimum bids with 75% or more of the league being FA is going to be a disaster. You going to tell me Melo who has every right to keep Tatum and Bam if he has the money potentially could lose out on day 1 of one of them because he potentially used up all his bids?

You can't worry about bad faith bids especially if bids are public and update real time. That will eliminate a team being put in a position to wait for Bish to update which basically eliminates the negative impact of bad faith bids because in the past if bish didn't update you are losing why another player you might way ended you wouldn't have to worry about that with real time public bidding.

[Slicin N Dicin]

I get it, and I’m not attacking Bish either, but I think the “player happiness” category is too subjective. I just want improvements to be made, or another category to be considered. Players should be happy to play for a successful GM. If Dallas gutted their team, and had a lot of money to spend, as a player I’d be happy to go there because I know what that GM is capable of.

if you wanted to adjust play happiness to something else I think the league would listen but right now we have

History Success
Star
Future
Happiness

do you have something in mind that would take over for happiness?

I don't get it though? The only reason GSW was ranked lower was because they didn't have any players, which makes sense? What's the problem with the FA ranking system?

Yeah - i have to agree, i don't think the FA Ranking system is "broken". I understand where NE is coming from, because I'm sure a lot of us were shocked to see you that low, and especially lower than Boston...but if a team has no players on the roster..there's no future to judge there and it should be a deemed negative. Its tough not to make it too subjective when trying to take into consideration the history of a team and how the GM has operated in the past because there are too many variables at play to accurately project that the same GM can do it in the future

[3toheadmelo]

minimum bids with 75% or more of the league being FA is going to be a disaster. You going to tell me Melo who has every right to keep Tatum and Bam if he has the money potentially could lose out on day 1 of one of them because he potentially used up all his bids?

You can't worry about bad faith bids especially if bids are public and update real time. That will eliminate a team being put in a position to wait for Bish to update which basically eliminates the negative impact of bad faith bids because in the past if bish didn't update you are losing why another player you might way ended you wouldn't have to worry about that with real time public bidding.

2010’s proposal was that bird rights holders get to exceed the minimum bids amount