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Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselves?

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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#61 » by prophet_of_rage » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:24 pm

greenhughes wrote:
prophet_of_rage wrote:it's a bit of both. Phil Jackson has played some gamesmanship to try to deflect blame. The scouting report was a nice bit of fan bait. Basically said all the players were poor defenders. And it covered over the fact that Phil has said numerous times that to teach the triangle it takes a lot of time working on offence and you don't have as much time to practice defence. He skated by not getting his man in Steve Kerr and had to overpay to keep Carmelo or lose the most valuable building block going forward. Then came the talk of the vaunted triangle offence itself and how it failed elsewhere because nobody adopted it purely.

The fans bought that Jackson meant fundamental change and that his arrival meant free agents by the boatload would be coming. So far while he rid us of CAA all he's done is bring in his old gang to replace them and his former players weren't taking any paycuts to come.

We did rail against the prediction that the Knicks would only win 31 games this year. Now we have half the posting fanbase clamouring for a tank.

He did not overpay Carmelo. Stop that.



Remember this was his initial play in trying to resign Anthony

[url]phil-jackson-hopes-carmelo-remains-true-to-his-word-that-hed-take-less[/url]
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/04/23/phil-jackson-wants-carmelo-anthony-to-take-less-money-to-re-sign-with-knicks/

and then in July it became http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/knicks/source-knicks-meet-carmelo-anthony-article-1.1853978


Phil did not pay what he wanted to pay for Melo. He overpaid. Five years at max money for a 30+ player. Sorry, Melo gave up his increase in the second year to max it $5 million under the max through the course of the deal. It is what it is.
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#62 » by Grover » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:38 pm

Don't be surprised if instead of the Knick's acquiring Kobe, Jackson was in LA to get some Jeannie Buss action and to lay the groundwork for the timing of a trade of Melo and others to the Lakers for Nash, Hill, Lin, Randle and a few picks.
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#63 » by Yankeeknickfan » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:55 pm

kingquan316 wrote:
MaseInYourFace wrote:
Besart19 wrote:Not giving up THJ and/or draft pick for Lowry was a bad decision... big mistake!!

Chandler/Bargs/Cole
Amare/Tyler/Clark
Melo/Morrow/Wear
Shump/JR/Brown
Lowry/Prigs/Galloway

=> Still we could've traded away Chandler and JR at the draft night!!

Also Chandler/Melo/Shump/Kobe/Lowry would've been an option... or let all those three bigs expire, tank hard (as we're already do; especially with Melo down) and go for a top pick and Gasol or LMA in FA

Gasol or Okafor
Towns or LMA
Melo
Shump
Lowry


I don't think Lowry is worth a 1st round pick personally.


Lowry is good, but not great. Don't think I would ever look back and regret not getting him.
i do last yr if we get Lowry we make the playoffs and probably beat the pacers they were horrible in the first round
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#64 » by Yankeeknickfan » Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:56 pm

Manhattan Project wrote:Medical staff fooled us all, yet again. Bargnani and Calderon day to day from the preseason opener, how's that going? Bargnani hurt himself again and probably won't see the floor this year at this rate. Calderon finally just got back and doesn't even look close to a 100%. Melo with a back injury... just send him home for the entire year.

Jose hit 7 3s yesterday he looks fine
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#65 » by Yankeeknickfan » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:00 pm

knicksh20b wrote:
denterprise wrote:Jackson has been pretty straight forward about this team. He described the roster as clumsy,he talked about our cap situation and lack of flexibility financially, and lack of draft picks. He said the system would take time to learn. Then he brings in a rookie coach to deal with the mess they inherited and implement his vision.

I can see fans being hopeful but no one should have been fooled.


As Carlos Boozer likes to scream, AND1 MOTHAF*****

The big issue is that some fans kept holding onto hope that Mike Woodson was the problem. I even argued with some fans about that. They tricked themselves into believing that, and so they thought that with Woodson gone, our team would start winning. Phil didn't trick anybody. Joke's on you. Our roster has sucked from the beginning. Our team culture was awful. It will change.
Ya woodson wasn't the problem remember he was 5 wins away from making it to the finals in the 2012-13 season
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#66 » by kingquan316 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:04 pm

Yankeeknickfan wrote:
kingquan316 wrote:
MaseInYourFace wrote:
I don't think Lowry is worth a 1st round pick personally.


Lowry is good, but not great. Don't think I would ever look back and regret not getting him.
i do last yr if we get Lowry we make the playoffs and probably beat the pacers they were horrible in the first round


Pacers were inconsistent, but they still beat the wizards in the playoffs.

I'm more on the mindset that I rather try and use the money that would pay for Lowry (not saying his contract is bad) on a big men next summer. I rather have Rondo over Lowry.
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#67 » by Sprewell4Three » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:20 pm

The problem with some Knicks fans they make rash conclusions about the team after one quarter, one possession and or one game. It's only been 10 games into a 4-5 yr plan and there people are already jumping off the bridge. I just don't get it.
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#68 » by Pharmcat » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:40 pm

jackson has failed the team this year...couldnt get a 2nd star, build a good bench, unload amare/bargs

he got SMOKED in the chandler trade, got no replacement C and got a player who takes up crucial cap space in 2015.

hired a coach in fisher who is way out of his league in the NBA

outside of keeping melo with his sweet talk, jackson has done nothing to improve the team
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#69 » by Pharmcat » Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:42 pm

Besart19 wrote:Not giving up THJ and/or draft pick for Lowry was a bad decision... big mistake!!

Chandler/Bargs/Cole
Amare/Tyler/Clark
Melo/Morrow/Wear
Shump/JR/Brown
Lowry/Prigs/Galloway

=> Still we could've traded away Chandler and JR at the draft night!!

Also Chandler/Melo/Shump/Kobe/Lowry would've been an option... or let all those three bigs expire, tank hard (as we're already do; especially with Melo down) and go for a top pick and Gasol or LMA in FA

Gasol or Okafor
Towns or LMA
Melo
Shump
Lowry


not getting lowry was a mistake, dude would be a legit #2 behind melo....stars are hard to get in this league, shouldve closed the deal when they had a chance.

holding on to young players with limitations (shump: cant finish at rim) or THJR (cant do anything but chuck and duck) is not worth it when you have the chance to get a stud like lowry
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#70 » by spikeslovechild » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:04 pm

Zenith wrote:
spikeslovechild wrote:It may be too early for calling on Phil to be fired but it certainly isn't to early to judge his moves (or lack there of) last offseason and while advising Dolan.

The two major minuses so far are nixing the Lowry trade and the Chandler trade. His big coup was signing Melo in which he offered him 20 million more then the next highest bidder.

He's been pretty much an abject failure at this point. I don't know why some here continue to give him a pass, I guess they are just happy Dolans not running things eventhough the guy they replaced him is a check out by 4, vacation in LA, totally detached, Mike Holmgren type.

LOL at thinking you can build and change team atmosphere in 8 months.


Who said any of this? What I wanted from him was solid decision making on trades/fa and some sort of vision for the future (whether it be rebuild or contention). Phil has done neither.

People here get annoyed that I have a tendency to not let go of things but the Chandler trade really was our one chance to turn things around for this club and he not only made a bad deal but one that is historically awful.

Now what are we left with? The only real asset we have is Shumpert who HAS to be moved or resigned but will probably fetch a late protected first at best and Melo who won't be moved. How do we get better? The draft? Sure we'll likely fairly high this year but what about afterwards? This team isn't one draft pick away from contention. It needs an enema.
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#71 » by spikeslovechild » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:15 pm

Pharmcat wrote:
Besart19 wrote:Not giving up THJ and/or draft pick for Lowry was a bad decision... big mistake!!

Chandler/Bargs/Cole
Amare/Tyler/Clark
Melo/Morrow/Wear
Shump/JR/Brown
Lowry/Prigs/Galloway

=> Still we could've traded away Chandler and JR at the draft night!!

Also Chandler/Melo/Shump/Kobe/Lowry would've been an option... or let all those three bigs expire, tank hard (as we're already do; especially with Melo down) and go for a top pick and Gasol or LMA in FA

Gasol or Okafor
Towns or LMA
Melo
Shump
Lowry


not getting lowry was a mistake, dude would be a legit #2 behind melo....stars are hard to get in this league, shouldve closed the deal when they had a chance.

holding on to young players with limitations (shump: cant finish at rim) or THJR (cant do anything but chuck and duck) is not worth it when you have the chance to get a stud like lowry


Here's the problem I have with not making the deal. Lowry was an asset and continues to be an asset moving forward. With our draft pick situation being what it is even if he doesn't lift us up he can be moved later on for future assets who will.

Calderon is not that type of player. Chandler was/is. Phil imo has really boxed himself in a corner here. We traded our only real asset other then Melo away and are left with nothing anybody wants.
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#72 » by Meat » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:22 pm

Butch718 wrote::lol: this thread is pure gold. Fans bashing Phil when it was never about this year. Talk about a bunch of impatient suckers. No wonder people say you can't rebuild in NY. It's because of shortsighted fans like those represented I this thread.

blame george steinbrenner, this generation of ny sports fans are so used to the yankees way of doing ****
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#73 » by Meat » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:24 pm

Manhattan Project wrote:Medical staff fooled us all, yet again. Bargnani and Calderon day to day from the preseason opener, how's that going? Bargnani hurt himself again and probably won't see the floor this year at this rate. Calderon finally just got back and doesn't even look close to a 100%. Melo with a back injury... just send him home for the entire year.

guy's back 2 games and you expect him to be 100%? after 2 games?

you understand that medical professionals arent fortune tellers right? and that injuries occur spontaneously?
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#74 » by BodyCount » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:25 pm

MaseInYourFace wrote:
spikeslovechild wrote:
Butch718 wrote::lol: this thread is pure gold. Fans bashing Phil when it was never about this year. Talk about a bunch of impatient suckers. No wonder people say you can't rebuild in NY. It's because of shortsighted fans like those represented I this thread.


How is exactly is Phil Rebuilding? Rebuilding teams don't just suck they collect young talent and picks for the future.

Phil didn't do that in any of the moves in the offseason. Minn is rebuilding. PHI is rebuilding. Utah is rebuilding. Orlando is rebuilding. We traded for Jose Calderon.


To be fair I don't think I've heard Phil himself use the word "rebuilding."


And he probably never will, It's not good for the league, sponsors, getting fans to watch games, ... Maybe he'll say it next year that we were rebuilding, but I am sceptical he'll admit it this year.
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#75 » by Besart19 » Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:51 pm

Chandler and THJ for Millsap

Felton, Metta and 2018 unprotected first for Lowry

That could've been our easiest way entering the 2015 summer...

Then after the hard tank you get Okafor or Towns

Okafor/Millsap/Melo/D.Green/Lowry

=> Phil better redeem himself with some major moves next FA
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#76 » by Manhattan Project » Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:10 pm

Meat wrote:guy's back 2 games and you expect him to be 100%? after 2 games?

you understand that medical professionals arent fortune tellers right? and that injuries occur spontaneously?


Nah I expect a day to day injury to be day to day, not weeks... repeatedly. So we rush back Calderon for what to help this team? Great so a guy has a greater risk to aggravate that calf injury. I just find it funny that Jackson has full autonomy on everything except the medical staff. I find it hysterical that we employ a soccer guy to be our director of conditioning and fitness, considering you know it's completely different sports. Some medical staffs are clearly superior to others, the Knicks have guys that been here for over twenty years and it appears that some new blood could be infused here but that will never happen.
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#77 » by AmazingJason » Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:15 pm

Pharmcat wrote:jackson has failed the team this year...couldnt get a 2nd star, build a good bench, unload amare/bargs

he got SMOKED in the chandler trade, got no replacement C and got a player who takes up crucial cap space in 2015.

hired a coach in fisher who is way out of his league in the NBA

outside of keeping melo with his sweet talk, jackson has done nothing to improve the team


That's the plan though. The plan is to get the 2nd guy - and a 3rd guy or 2 role players - in the summer. Amare and Bargnani unload themselves. The replacement C will come from FA (Gasol) or the draft (Okafor/Towns). Calderon has the potential to be the starting PG on the 2016 or 2017 championship team, or if not, he can be easily moved. Fisher is fine; he's a good communicator and he has the triangle offense (that's the key), he'll get better as he goes along. Keeping Melo was huge; he gives us a chance to build a true contender sooner rather than later.
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#78 » by spikeslovechild » Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:16 pm

Meat wrote:
Butch718 wrote::lol: this thread is pure gold. Fans bashing Phil when it was never about this year. Talk about a bunch of impatient suckers. No wonder people say you can't rebuild in NY. It's because of shortsighted fans like those represented I this thread.

blame george steinbrenner, this generation of ny sports fans are so used to the yankees way of doing ****


In a way this team is similar not but SR. Steinbrenner version but JR Steinbrenner.

The knicks are full of players that nobody wants not just because they are overpaid but because they suck as well. Also like Juniors version of the Yankees they get the 'rebuilding' label from a certain segment of their fanbase despite having very little young talent to speak of.
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#79 » by R-DAWG » Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:19 pm

I mean this is basically the same roster as last year with the exception of the 2nd best player and defensive anchor being traded away and the upgrade from Felton to Calderon isn't enough to offset that.

IDK what anyone really expected, but there are 3, maybe 5 players that will be here next year (Carmelo, Calderon and Hardaway for sure, possibility of Shumpert and maybe Amare on a min contract). The roster still lacks 2 way players, a 2nd scorer, still has JR Smith.
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Re: Did Phil Jackson fool fans or did the fans fool themselv 

Post#80 » by KnicksGadfly » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:16 am

Pharmcat wrote:jackson has failed the team this year...couldnt get a 2nd star, build a good bench, unload amare/bargs

he got SMOKED in the chandler trade, got no replacement C and got a player who takes up crucial cap space in 2015.

hired a coach in fisher who is way out of his league in the NBA

outside of keeping melo with his sweet talk, jackson has done nothing to improve the team


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