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Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG

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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#61 » by malik959 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:54 am

thebuzzardman wrote:
ctorres wrote:Anyone in here familiar with BJ Armstrong's skill set, style of play, and talent level from the '93 through '95 seasons when he was the starting PG for those Bulls teams coached by Phil?

I've only looked at a few YouTube highlights and stats, but BJ Armstrong seems like the most "modern" PG to play within the triangle.

I don't want to use Gary Payton as an example because he admittedly struggled with the triangle and only played in it for one year.

Any other PG's under Phil were either guys in the twilight of their career (Steve Kerr, Ron Harper, Brian Shaw) or guys who on any other squad were either reserves or not even NBA-caliber players (Derek Fisher, Jordan Farmar, Smush Parker).

BJ Armstrong had 3 years of strong play with the Bulls from '93 through '95 and one pretty solid season with the Warriors in '96. However, by '97 (his 8th season in the league at 29 years old), his production had drastically diminished.

Nevertheless, during the 4 solid years I referenced, BJ Armstrong's production seems comparable to what you'd ideally get from a Mike Conley, Brandon Knight, J'rue Holiday, Goran Dragic, or even Darren Collison playing in the triangle. Their numbers would potentially be decent enough to justify their salaries, and also appease each player in the sense of allowing them to have an important role on a good team without having to completely sacrifice their individual stats.

However, I would not expect the same type of production from a high assist/ball dominant PG like a Rajon Rondo, Ricky Rubio, John Wall, etc.

Judging on his athleticism from YouTube highlights as well as his ridiculously good FG percentages, I am assuming that BJ Armstrong was much more talented than the likes of a Mario Chalmers-caliber point guard.

To put it short, could anyone in here just tell me how good BJ Armstrong was and if it's realistic to target a PG that plays like him? If anything, I may go into the Bulls thread to ask them about him.


Remember Charlie Ward? My recollection of BJ Armstrong is of him being not much better than that, maybe a little bit better on the drive his first few years.

Jordan and Pippen were the "Point Guards" of those teams. Phil isn't a moron, he adjusts to the players he has. He had two guys, 6'6" or taller, who could pass the sh*t out of the ball, among other things.

That left filling the PG position with someone who first strength was shooting. BJ Armstrong was probably the most "well rounded" PG, followed by Paxson, then Kerr, who was basically a SG in a PG body.

For God's sake (pun intended), I'd take Charlie Ward right now, and he really was only ever just adequate as PG. Yes, he played hard D, but really, he was just average at best.


Ward was the perfect comparison, but as far as today's NBA I would say a player like Collison or George Hill. A player that's not going to demand the ball, a ball hawk on defense, and in a sense is like a side chick, when you need a hit always call on your side chick!
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#62 » by ORANGEandBLUE » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:54 am

I really hope Phil does not abide by this silly concept of a "triangle PG." There is nothing noteworthy about the fact that BJ and Fisher has similar skillets. ALL of Phil's role players were defensive players who could shoot spot-up 3's. And ANY system with a dominant 2-guard will likely have an off-ball PG, like Harden and Beverly, Wade and Chalmers, etc. To rule out any PG just because they aren't terrible at dribble penetration would be like trading Shaq because he didn't fit the mold of a "triangle center" set by Luc Longley.
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#63 » by duetta » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:11 am

If memory serves me, BJ Armstrong was a terrific shooter - but Scotty Pippin was the Point forward on that team.
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#64 » by GONYK » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:20 am

Friendly reminder: Phil wanted Reggie Jackson
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#65 » by nykballa2k4 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:23 am

JoeypopsNY wrote:Honestly phil has no idea what he is doing.. Wow he drafted porzingis... oh wait that was his scout.


Don't be a Trump. Phil had to agree to the decision and knowing who to trust is a big part. Also he made several great FA moves. His coaching choice did not pan out, but Phil has done one thing better than any GM we have seen in the past 30 years and that is HE HASNT SCREWED OUR FUTURE. If Phil trades our 2018 pick, offers a 2017 pick swap, that is when I get my pitch fork. Phil has not been swayed to make the "opportunistic" move and get a marginal pg for a "future pick". He has appropriately valued draft picks and made efforts to collect as many as he can, specifically when he has targets in mind. So far, a few picks have "busted" (as badly as 2nd round picks can I suppose) and the one big error we all experienced was not picking up Shane Larkins extra year. Galloway-Larkin could have easily become our Fisher-Lue pg tandem.

For those who are actually paying attention to what Phil is doing -- he is acquiring talent that fits roles. Every player he adds slides other pieces into a better place. We are, of course, 1 big piece away from contention, but we are ONLY one big piece from contention. We have Melo, who, at worst, will be a "3rd option" type at the end of this contract, Porzingis, right now BEST slots in as a 3rd option, and he will ideally ascend, so all we will need is a capable 2nd option type. We have heard whispers of Westbrook (has the kobe mentality, why not?)
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#66 » by dakomish23 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:11 am

GONYK wrote:Friendly reminder: Phil wanted Reggie Jackson


So you also feel that there is no such thing as a triangle PG?

Idc if it's Westbrook, CP3, Curry or Wall (the top 4 PGs IMO). All 4 are very different. PJax would take any of them and make it work.

The system is about putting players in an optimal position to be a threat. Doesn't matter who that player is.
Jimmit79 wrote:Yea RJ played well he was definitely the x factor


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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#67 » by GONYK » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:15 am

dakomish23 wrote:
GONYK wrote:Friendly reminder: Phil wanted Reggie Jackson


So you also feel that there is no such thing as a triangle PG?

Idc if it's Westbrook, CP3, Curry or Wall (the top 4 PGs IMO). All 4 are very different. PJax would take any of them and make it work.

The system is about putting players in an optimal position to be a threat. Doesn't matter who that player is.


I think Phil values intelligence and desire to contribute to the group as a whole (which would rule out Westbrook :lol: ). I think the thinks that temperament will make the rest a matter of familiarity.

CP3 and Curry especially would be great here.
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#68 » by dakomish23 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:16 am

nykballa2k4 wrote:
JoeypopsNY wrote:Honestly phil has no idea what he is doing.. Wow he drafted porzingis... oh wait that was his scout.


Don't be a Trump. Phil had to agree to the decision and knowing who to trust is a big part. Also he made several great FA moves. His coaching choice did not pan out, but Phil has done one thing better than any GM we have seen in the past 30 years and that is HE HASNT SCREWED OUR FUTURE. If Phil trades our 2018 pick, offers a 2017 pick swap, that is when I get my pitch fork. Phil has not been swayed to make the "opportunistic" move and get a marginal pg for a "future pick". He has appropriately valued draft picks and made efforts to collect as many as he can, specifically when he has targets in mind. So far, a few picks have "busted" (as badly as 2nd round picks can I suppose) and the one big error we all experienced was not picking up Shane Larkins extra year. Galloway-Larkin could have easily become our Fisher-Lue pg tandem.

For those who are actually paying attention to what Phil is doing -- he is acquiring talent that fits roles. Every player he adds slides other pieces into a better place. We are, of course, 1 big piece away from contention, but we are ONLY one big piece from contention. We have Melo, who, at worst, will be a "3rd option" type at the end of this contract, Porzingis, right now BEST slots in as a 3rd option, and he will ideally ascend, so all we will need is a capable 2nd option type. We have heard whispers of Westbrook (has the kobe mentality, why not?)


Don't be a Trump. Awesome line.

So many impatient fans with unrealistic expectations.

How about we give this some time to play out?
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#69 » by dakomish23 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:17 am

duetta wrote:If memory serves me, BJ Armstrong was a terrific shooter - but Scotty Pippin was the Point forward on that team.


And wasn't Pippen a horrific shooter to start his career?
Jimmit79 wrote:Yea RJ played well he was definitely the x factor


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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#70 » by Coeur » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:18 am

nykballa2k4 wrote:
JoeypopsNY wrote:Honestly phil has no idea what he is doing.. Wow he drafted porzingis... oh wait that was his scout.


Don't be a Trump. Phil had to agree to the decision and knowing who to trust is a big part. Also he made several great FA moves. His coaching choice did not pan out, but Phil has done one thing better than any GM we have seen in the past 30 years and that is HE HASNT SCREWED OUR FUTURE. If Phil trades our 2018 pick, offers a 2017 pick swap, that is when I get my pitch fork. Phil has not been swayed to make the "opportunistic" move and get a marginal pg for a "future pick". He has appropriately valued draft picks and made efforts to collect as many as he can, specifically when he has targets in mind. So far, a few picks have "busted" (as badly as 2nd round picks can I suppose) and the one big error we all experienced was not picking up Shane Larkins extra year. Galloway-Larkin could have easily become our Fisher-Lue pg tandem.

For those who are actually paying attention to what Phil is doing -- he is acquiring talent that fits roles. Every player he adds slides other pieces into a better place. We are, of course, 1 big piece away from contention, but we are ONLY one big piece from contention. We have Melo, who, at worst, will be a "3rd option" type at the end of this contract, Porzingis, right now BEST slots in as a 3rd option, and he will ideally ascend, so all we will need is a capable 2nd option type. We have heard whispers of Westbrook (has the kobe mentality, why not?)


Pitchfork for trading the 2018 pick? You also prob want to sign great free agents too. You think they'll care if the team as a 1st in 2018? No they'll want to see players already on the roster. A Jeff Teague type would help a lot more in signing a free agent than having that pick still

Both the 2018 and 2020 picks should be available for the right trade.
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#71 » by GONYK » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:23 am

Coeur wrote:
nykballa2k4 wrote:
JoeypopsNY wrote:Honestly phil has no idea what he is doing.. Wow he drafted porzingis... oh wait that was his scout.


Don't be a Trump. Phil had to agree to the decision and knowing who to trust is a big part. Also he made several great FA moves. His coaching choice did not pan out, but Phil has done one thing better than any GM we have seen in the past 30 years and that is HE HASNT SCREWED OUR FUTURE. If Phil trades our 2018 pick, offers a 2017 pick swap, that is when I get my pitch fork. Phil has not been swayed to make the "opportunistic" move and get a marginal pg for a "future pick". He has appropriately valued draft picks and made efforts to collect as many as he can, specifically when he has targets in mind. So far, a few picks have "busted" (as badly as 2nd round picks can I suppose) and the one big error we all experienced was not picking up Shane Larkins extra year. Galloway-Larkin could have easily become our Fisher-Lue pg tandem.

For those who are actually paying attention to what Phil is doing -- he is acquiring talent that fits roles. Every player he adds slides other pieces into a better place. We are, of course, 1 big piece away from contention, but we are ONLY one big piece from contention. We have Melo, who, at worst, will be a "3rd option" type at the end of this contract, Porzingis, right now BEST slots in as a 3rd option, and he will ideally ascend, so all we will need is a capable 2nd option type. We have heard whispers of Westbrook (has the kobe mentality, why not?)


Pitchfork for trading the 2018 pick? You also prob want to sign great free agents too. You think they'll care if the team as a 1st in 2018? No they'll want to see players already on the roster. A Jeff Teague type would help a lot more in signing a free agent than having that pick still

Both the 2018 and 2020 picks should be available for the right trade.


Jeff Teague isn't a player you give up future picks for. He barely makes us a playoff team.

Future 1sts from a team in our position go out for impact players.
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#72 » by FutureKnicksGM » Thu Feb 11, 2016 6:30 am

We won't get a chance at a starter level guard untill the offseason, but for now Phil needs to at least give us a rotation worthy guard.

We got two nba caliber back up centers (Kyle & Kevin) and one nba caliber back up guard (Gallo, Grant aint ready yet). Trade a big for a small! The **** are you waiting for.
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#73 » by j4remi » Thu Feb 11, 2016 12:59 pm

GONYK wrote:Friendly reminder: Phil wanted Reggie Jackson


Also inquid about Teague and drafted Jerian Grant. He's definitely tried for more modern style PG's.
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#74 » by Red Vines » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:08 pm

The starting lineup after the break will be very telling. If Jose is back starting I give up.
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#75 » by JXL » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:38 pm

While I don't think Jose holds much value, I think Phil can probably move him to New Orleans since Evans' injury is season-ending and they're not going anywhere this season. He can probably get 2 2nd round picks. He can move Seraphin to the Bucks for Bayless' expiring, or to the Thunder for McGary since they barely use him.
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#76 » by god shammgod » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:44 pm

JXL wrote:While I don't think Jose holds much value, I think Phil can probably move him to New Orleans since Evans' injury is season-ending and they're not going anywhere this season. He can probably get 2 2nd round picks. He can move Seraphin to the Bucks for Bayless' expiring, or to the Thunder for McGary since they barely use him.


if their season is over, why do they want jose ? why do the bucks want a slow big that doesn't play d ? they hate the one they spent big money on. this all seems very hopeful i'm afraid.
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#77 » by JXL » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:50 pm

god shammgod wrote:
JXL wrote:While I don't think Jose holds much value, I think Phil can probably move him to New Orleans since Evans' injury is season-ending and they're not going anywhere this season. He can probably get 2 2nd round picks. He can move Seraphin to the Bucks for Bayless' expiring, or to the Thunder for McGary since they barely use him.


if their season is over, why do they want jose ? why do the bucks want a slow big that doesn't play d ? they hate the one they spent big money on. this all seems very hopeful i'm afraid.


:lol: I get your point. $50 mil on a player that's not a rim protector... Glad we didn't offer him that much.
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#78 » by Knicks Byke » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:57 pm

i remember when ppl were saying shaq wouldn't work in the triangle :lol:
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#79 » by Adelheid » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:02 pm

..and Zaza Pachulia was nearly included in this year's ASG, who was their previous center
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Re: Phil won't admit this: He needs a modern PG 

Post#80 » by nykballa2k4 » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:49 am

GONYK wrote:
Coeur wrote:
nykballa2k4 wrote:
Don't be a Trump. Phil had to agree to the decision and knowing who to trust is a big part. Also he made several great FA moves. His coaching choice did not pan out, but Phil has done one thing better than any GM we have seen in the past 30 years and that is HE HASNT SCREWED OUR FUTURE. If Phil trades our 2018 pick, offers a 2017 pick swap, that is when I get my pitch fork. Phil has not been swayed to make the "opportunistic" move and get a marginal pg for a "future pick". He has appropriately valued draft picks and made efforts to collect as many as he can, specifically when he has targets in mind. So far, a few picks have "busted" (as badly as 2nd round picks can I suppose) and the one big error we all experienced was not picking up Shane Larkins extra year. Galloway-Larkin could have easily become our Fisher-Lue pg tandem.

For those who are actually paying attention to what Phil is doing -- he is acquiring talent that fits roles. Every player he adds slides other pieces into a better place. We are, of course, 1 big piece away from contention, but we are ONLY one big piece from contention. We have Melo, who, at worst, will be a "3rd option" type at the end of this contract, Porzingis, right now BEST slots in as a 3rd option, and he will ideally ascend, so all we will need is a capable 2nd option type. We have heard whispers of Westbrook (has the kobe mentality, why not?)


Pitchfork for trading the 2018 pick? You also prob want to sign great free agents too. You think they'll care if the team as a 1st in 2018? No they'll want to see players already on the roster. A Jeff Teague type would help a lot more in signing a free agent than having that pick still

Both the 2018 and 2020 picks should be available for the right trade.


Jeff Teague isn't a player you give up future picks for. He barely makes us a playoff team.

Future 1sts from a team in our position go out for impact players.

IMO the picks value to us is much greater than to whatever team is trading for it. What is the line between marginal starter (Teague) and impact player?
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