dakomish23 wrote:testerosa wrote:KnixtapeH20 wrote:Randle isn't even HALF the **** talent or Knick for that matter that Melo was.... that's a BIG **** OUTTA HERE
Melo was a bigger ball hog, gave less effort on defense, was a worse leader overall, and did less with bigger expectations than Randle has. Not even a debate.
For the Knicks to exhaust every option, every asset and spend every dollar to have the kind of team they put around Melo in 2013, only to lose to that Pacers team in the second round says it all. Meanwhile Randle took that 2021 team to the 4th seed almost single handedly when no one expected it. We took the ECF champs to 6 games last year with Randle on a bum ankle. He's made 2 all-star teams and 2 all-NBA teams without butting heads with the FO, getting any coaches fired or any beloved players traded, and the team's trajectory is still pointing up.
Like Randle, Melo is a great father and a very cool dude off the court so I respect him as a man, but there's no denying his tenure with the Knicks was a MAJOR disappointment. Actually, I believe he's so cool and so loved and respected by his peers, that none of them ever had the guts to call him out or complain to the coaches or FO about what a black hole he was. But I KNOW Tyson Chandler had enough of Melo's sh*t by the end of it, and Nene recently called him selfish so that's pretty substantial confirmation of what players really thought.
Most fans wanted him gone by the end of his run, and the fact the Knicks needed to surround him with so many vets in 2013 just to make up for his lack of leadership speaks volumes as well. Kidd, Sheed, Camby, Kurt, K-Mart, Q-Rich, Prigioni? It's like Melo and JR needed baby sitters.
We all know Randle's attitude sucks sometimes, and at his worst, he holds the ball too long and turns it over too much. But he is the vet on this squad. He's a total alpha and a vocal leader which Melo refused to be. And at his best, Randle fills the stat sheet and facilitates for others like a point forward of sorts. If the Knicks continue to improve, he could easily go down as one of the all-time great Knicks. He's already one of the best from the last 20 years which I know is not saying much, but for that reason alone he gets too much hate around here.
Prove with data all the stuff you said in your first paragraph. It's all subjective.
The Knicks did not exhaust every option to put the best team around Melo - as proven by us literally trading a pick AFTER the series to bring in Bargs. And just b/c they tried to put pieces around him doesn't mean they did a good job of it. They wasted the amnesty clause when they could have opted out of Billups contract or tried to trade it. Those were two critical mistakes that prevented us from building a good team around him. Melo dragged us from the 11 seed to the 7 seed after Lin & Amare went down. Then he followed that up with getting us the 2 seed and to the 2nd round for the first time in 15 years. And we only went to game 6 vs IND b/c of Melo and he did what Brunson did in game 6 (going supernova) trying to drag it to 7. No one else showed up all series. Meanwhile, we went to game 6 with MIA last year in spite of Julius's bad games (they weren't all bad). Did you watch game 5??? We had to sit Randle as we went down 10 in the first on the way to a blowout, then we immediately go on an 18-2 run and go on to win the game. You're rewriting history.
Former Knicks players have called out that Randle has no accountability. Why are you ignoring that but embracing what some of Melo's former teammates have said? And not even players who played with him during his time here. And somehow you "KNOW" Tyson was sick of him?
One thing that you said that was true was that expectations FOR THE TEAM with Melo were not met vs the expectations FOR THE TEAM were surpassed with Randle. But that statement in itself shows the wide gap in who's better b/w the two. You don't have expectations for one and not the other if you don't think one is better a better player than the other.
And I'm a Randle Island guy from day one. I just know who was the better player b/w these two at this point. If Randle sticks to bully ball, defending and being a solid facilitator, we could go very far as a team. Then we can revisit this. But at this point they're not close.
No need for me to dig up data. I never said Randle is more talented or statistically a better player than Melo. I just said he's been a better Knick. To me, that simply means I've enjoyed his career and the teams he's played on significantly more than I did Melo's. You said so yourself- Melo's run was a massive disappointment. So for that reason alone, I don't miss that era and I don't look back on it fondly pretty much at all. It was a waste of 7 years, whereas this current team (led in large part by Randle) still has real hope to contend at some point soon.
I also never said it was all Melo's fault (although he had a lot to do with it by forcing a trade instead of signing as a FA). Of course the Knicks FO made mistakes, just as we can point to some mistakes Leon and co. have made with this team (although they've been much better overall than Grunwald, Mills and Phil IMO). For instance, imagine if they didn't sign Fournier, drafted Haliburton over Obi and put their FA money to use in some other way that might have landed us a legit 2 way wing. Who knows. Hindsight is 20/20 and it's not worth toiling over. The fact remains, the Knicks tapped themselves out trying to make the finals with Melo. Just because they traded a pick for Bargs the following year doesn't mean they could have added the final piece to the '13 team but chose not to. That was a bold assumption on your part.
One last counterpoint I will make is that... for all the flack Randle catches for "choking in the playoffs", I think it's extremely unfair to overlook his injury last year. The dude is tough as nails. He sat out the last 10 games or so of the regular season to get right, clearly wasn't 100 percent when he came back but was still playing pretty well until he re-aggravated it, and he never complained or considered sitting out. I respect him for that, and I will never consider that a choke job. 2021 was different. Suddenly fans were back in the arena, the lights were bright, the defense loaded up on him (dude was playing with no other ball handlers or shooters) and he didn't perform. It is what it is.
Again, Melo is clearly the more talented, more highly regarded and more HOF-worthy player. He's got more accolades and a much better reputation around the league. There's no denying that. But when you take all the hype surrounding his arrival and all the gaudy numbers, and put it up against the early outs in the POs, the losing seasons and times he missed the playoffs altogether, plus the carousel of coaches and the constant drama and tension...... his time with the Knicks was a huge fail, for Melo on a personal level and for the Knicks franchise. And I'm sorry but it pains me to see people put him in the same conversation as Ewing, King and Clyde as some sort of Knicks legend. Houston and Sprewell are well above him on my list in terms of what they meant for the team and the city. Not even close.
Just admit it. We star phucked for Melo and got ass phucked in the end. His 2 most famous moments in the Garden were 62 points on the bum ass Bobcats, and sucker punching Mardy Collins in the face.
