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Around the nba part 7

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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#601 » by Getouttahea22 » Sat Apr 6, 2013 10:42 pm

Knickstape1214 wrote:Fair enough. Having seen a lot of both (more Lin because I find the Rockets more entertaining to watch), I think Holiday is better. To each is own though.


Don't take this the wrong way (not trying to rub it in your face) but Holiday has been putting up some real stinkers lately (2 against the bobcats :o ). Admittedly small sample size. However, I think it has been a while since he has shot > 50% in a game which isn't a great sign...and his true shooting percentage is worse than Jennings and right around Monta Ellis and Ricky Rubio...

Also, based on his game by game stats, it doesn't look like he has had a lot of good shooting games against quality opponents. Perhaps the quality opponent he has had some of his best games against is...drumroll please...the Knicks! Maybe it's possible that those games have had an undue influence on your opinion of him, which would be understandable.

However, Holiday has had some nice assist games, so maybe he is one of the better facilitators in the league.
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#602 » by barborous » Sat Apr 6, 2013 10:55 pm

I don't watch a lot of Holiday, so take this with a grain of salt. But I don't think he's as good as people think when they see 19/9. He's not at all a very good scorer: he's quick and strong with pretty good handles, but doesn't take it inside enough, and is only an average finisher at the rim. He tends to chuck too many inefficient midrange shots, which is why his TS has gone from decent in the first part of the season to the atrocious <.500 it is now.

On the positive side, he's a pretty good rebounder and a good defender at PG, and he's definitely got a knack for playmaking/passing as well: his turnover problem has decreased, and while he's a classic case of dominating the ball on a bad team, he has the impressive assist total/AST% to match. He's still a very good PG and was deserving of his All-Star berth IMO (that was before his TS took a huge slide too). Just not the near-20/10 quality that his raw stats would suggest.
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#603 » by Thugger HBC » Sat Apr 6, 2013 10:57 pm

Usually when people dismiss a player even when they have the stats to show, usually that player is pretty good.
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#604 » by Getouttahea22 » Sat Apr 6, 2013 10:59 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:
Getouttahea22 wrote:So wait, let me get this straight Thugger/Pharm. You do or you don't think Portland is tanking? Because if so, how do you explain Lillard playing 40+ min. and LA coming back from his ankle injury even though they're mathematically eliminated from the playoffs?

At this point, if they're making those kinds of decisions, don't they deserve to be given credit for not tanking?

I think the Blazers should be better, they have enough pieces to be better than what they are.

But just because a player is playing a ton of minutes doesn't detract from tanking.

They dont play to win, they merely try to be competitive.....AT HOME.

You can tank without sitting your best players down.


I'm inclined to agree that a team with Lillard, Aldridge, Batum (injured but has played quite a bit this season), and Hixon could/should be hovering around .500. However, supposedly they have a terrible bench (though I guess they have Maynor now).

As for the minutes, I'm curious about what you think is going through Stotts' mind when he chooses to play Lillard that much even though they've been eliminated from the playoffs. It seems to me like he's still trying to win.

You can still tank I suppose, but if Lillard is going to be your franchise point guard, and Aldridge is your franchise big, why would you risk them by having them play extended minutes or come back from injury, and for what? The appearance of being "competitive"? A better record? Building chemistry? Experience? Aldridge probably doesn't need experience right?

I think that as a coach, you don't really have a lot of control over what happens on the floor, except for who you put on it. One of the best ways for a coach to help the team win is to put the right players on the floor right? So if he's putting Lillard and Aldridge on the floor, it just doesn't look like they're tanking. OR maybe there are degrees of tanking, in which case Portland may be tanking to a lesser degree than you would expect from a team eliminated from the playoffs.
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#605 » by knicksnyk » Sat Apr 6, 2013 11:02 pm

Getouttahea22 wrote:
Knickstape1214 wrote:Fair enough. Having seen a lot of both (more Lin because I find the Rockets more entertaining to watch), I think Holiday is better. To each is own though.


Don't take this the wrong way (not trying to rub it in your face) but Holiday has been putting up some real stinkers lately (2 against the bobcats :o ). Admittedly small sample size. However, I think it has been a while since he has shot > 50% in a game which isn't a great sign...and his true shooting percentage is worse than Jennings and right around Monta Ellis and Ricky Rubio...

Also, based on his game by game stats, it doesn't look like he has had a lot of good shooting games against quality opponents. Perhaps the quality opponent he has had some of his best games against is...drumroll please...the Knicks! Maybe it's possible that those games have had an undue influence on your opinion of him, which would be understandable.

However, Holiday has had some nice assist games, so maybe he is one of the better facilitators in the league.


Jrue isn't one of the better facilitators in the NBA. He has passing rating of 11.2. Compare that to Lin 12.7, Westbrooks passing rating of 13 CP3's passing rating of 18.8. Rubio's passing rating of 12.7. parker's passing rating of 13.4

Lin & jrue are about a wash.
Lin is a better passer & ball handler (better passing rating & hands rating via 82games). He is also a better scorer & more efficient. Lin has the higher TS% & efg%. both of them are just as good at getting to the rim but lin converts at a higher fg%. also lin draws fouls a lot more frequently than jrue does & Lin is a better FT shooter. Jrue is a better shooter from deep though & is a slightly better defender.
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#606 » by Bran Fast Hands » Sat Apr 6, 2013 11:04 pm

Portland are a sixth man and a role player big of the bench from being back in the playoffs next season.
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#607 » by Getouttahea22 » Sat Apr 6, 2013 11:05 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:Usually when people dismiss a player even when they have the stats to show, usually that player is pretty good.


I'm not sure people are dismissing his stats. It just seems like per game numbers without context should perhaps be examined more carefully WITH context. Wasn't that the issue with David Lee?
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#608 » by Thugger HBC » Sat Apr 6, 2013 11:05 pm

Getouttahea22 wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:
Getouttahea22 wrote:So wait, let me get this straight Thugger/Pharm. You do or you don't think Portland is tanking? Because if so, how do you explain Lillard playing 40+ min. and LA coming back from his ankle injury even though they're mathematically eliminated from the playoffs?

At this point, if they're making those kinds of decisions, don't they deserve to be given credit for not tanking?

I think the Blazers should be better, they have enough pieces to be better than what they are.

But just because a player is playing a ton of minutes doesn't detract from tanking.

They dont play to win, they merely try to be competitive.....AT HOME.

You can tank without sitting your best players down.


I'm inclined to agree that a team with Lillard, Aldridge, Batum (injured but has played quite a bit this season), and Hixon could/should be hovering around .500. However, supposedly they have a terrible bench (though I guess they have Maynor now).

As for the minutes, I'm curious about what you think is going through Stotts' mind when he chooses to play Lillard that much even though they've been eliminated from the playoffs. It seems to me like he's still trying to win.

You can still tank I suppose, but if Lillard is going to be your franchise point guard, and Aldridge is your franchise big, why would you risk them by having them play extended minutes or come back from injury, and for what? The appearance of being "competitive"? A better record? Building chemistry? Experience? Aldridge probably doesn't need experience right?

I think that as a coach, you don't really have a lot of control over what happens on the floor, except for who you put on it. One of the best ways for a coach to help the team win is to put the right players on the floor right? So if he's putting Lillard and Aldridge on the floor, it just doesn't look like they're tanking. OR maybe there are degrees of tanking, in which case Portland may be tanking to a lesser degree than you would expect from a team eliminated from the playoffs.

Lillard and Aldridge might be meal ticket to staying coach.

Let them play, he gets their endorsement hopefully.

they also dont have an depth beyond their starters, and i think that was by design, thus not trying to win, but just to compete.
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#609 » by Getouttahea22 » Sat Apr 6, 2013 11:08 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:
Getouttahea22 wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:I think the Blazers should be better, they have enough pieces to be better than what they are.

But just because a player is playing a ton of minutes doesn't detract from tanking.

They dont play to win, they merely try to be competitive.....AT HOME.

You can tank without sitting your best players down.


I'm inclined to agree that a team with Lillard, Aldridge, Batum (injured but has played quite a bit this season), and Hixon could/should be hovering around .500. However, supposedly they have a terrible bench (though I guess they have Maynor now).

As for the minutes, I'm curious about what you think is going through Stotts' mind when he chooses to play Lillard that much even though they've been eliminated from the playoffs. It seems to me like he's still trying to win.

You can still tank I suppose, but if Lillard is going to be your franchise point guard, and Aldridge is your franchise big, why would you risk them by having them play extended minutes or come back from injury, and for what? The appearance of being "competitive"? A better record? Building chemistry? Experience? Aldridge probably doesn't need experience right?

I think that as a coach, you don't really have a lot of control over what happens on the floor, except for who you put on it. One of the best ways for a coach to help the team win is to put the right players on the floor right? So if he's putting Lillard and Aldridge on the floor, it just doesn't look like they're tanking. OR maybe there are degrees of tanking, in which case Portland may be tanking to a lesser degree than you would expect from a team eliminated from the playoffs.

Lillard and Aldridge might be meal ticket to staying coach.

Let them play, he gets their endorsement hopefully.

they also dont have an depth beyond their starters, and i think that was by design, thus not trying to win, but just to compete.


Ahhhh interesting. A totally different perspective and a potentially good explanation. One of the reasons why message boards can be so interesting. I guess I hadn't really considered the whole "Player driven league" dynamic where players have influence over who coaches...Good point.
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#610 » by Thugger HBC » Sat Apr 6, 2013 11:09 pm

Getouttahea22 wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:Usually when people dismiss a player even when they have the stats to show, usually that player is pretty good.


I'm not sure people are dismissing his stats. It just seems like per game numbers without context should perhaps be examined more carefully WITH context. Wasn't that the issue with David Lee?

The only thing I see with Holiday is he is getting burnt out, pretty much as the whole team has.

None of them were this bad until they found out Bynum might not be back, that took alot of wind out of their sails, which climaxed with that presser that Collins had spilling his emotions on national TV.

Similar to the Bulls with Rose, except Thibbs still has them trying to play hard, but the edge they have every game isn't there anymore.
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#611 » by Getouttahea22 » Sat Apr 6, 2013 11:17 pm

Thugger HBC wrote:
Getouttahea22 wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:Usually when people dismiss a player even when they have the stats to show, usually that player is pretty good.


I'm not sure people are dismissing his stats. It just seems like per game numbers without context should perhaps be examined more carefully WITH context. Wasn't that the issue with David Lee?

The only thing I see with Holiday is he is getting burnt out, pretty much as the whole team has.

None of them were this bad until they found out Bynum might not be back, that took alot of wind out of their sails, which climaxed with that presser that Collins had spilling his emotions on national TV.

Similar to the Bulls with Rose, except Thibbs still has them trying to play hard, but the edge they have every game isn't there anymore.


I guess that's possible. When was that presser anyways? Be interesting to see what happens with Bynum this off season. If you're Philly, do you try to sign him?

Btw speaking of the Bulls, did everyone see Boozer's nut shot? lol @ Shaq "That play was NUTS!"

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/tnt_o ... index.html
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#612 » by kNicksGmen » Sat Apr 6, 2013 11:17 pm

i wish portland tanked against us lol
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#613 » by Knicks_Fan2 » Sat Apr 6, 2013 11:24 pm

btw John wall going off on indiana
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#614 » by GettinitDone » Sat Apr 6, 2013 11:37 pm

Knickstape1214 wrote:
GettinitDone wrote:^I would say MKG.

Harrison Barnes' game is one-dimensional, he's all just about offense... reminds me of Al Harrington.

MKG has the makings of quality defender, and he can be the next prime Ron Artest without baggage.


that's not only completely false, but it is one of the worst comparisons i have ever seen.

barnes is a good defender for anyone in the nba and a very good rookie one (and was actually the BEST rookie defender going into all star break -- haven't checked the stats since then). he has to be more aggressive on offense, though.


Actually, Al was a great defender in his first few seasons in Indiana... then he went to Knicks and became a one-dimensional scorer, 3 pt shooter. My crystal ball says Barnes follows the same path...


kakaman wrote:
Never Wrong wrote:[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7KsuyQb-1Y[/youtube]


[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_59_kvc5XsM[/youtube]

See what I did there? As if one video clip is the be all and end all

Oh btw this was the play right after that one

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdqtLC4i73Q[/youtube]


It's called taking a step backward and two steps forward :lol:
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#615 » by NYKMentality85 » Sun Apr 7, 2013 12:04 am

I personally loved Jeremy Lin during his run in New York but then it hit me during the offseason, it only lasted during a handful of game. He's currently being overrated by the max by our very own fan base. Not even Houston Rocket fans talk up Lin like we do. I understand that yes, he had some magical moments as a Knick but damn, those magical moments (handful of games) are long gone. Houston paid for Linsanity and they've only walked away with Jeremy Lin in return.

He's no where near being as impactful as a Stephen Curry type but yet Curry's not even a full year older than Jeremy Lin. Put it this way, Derrick Rose is two months younger than Jeremy Lin at the age of 24. You can not compare the two, ACL injury or not. Even Russell Westbrook is three months younger than Jeremy Lin. Does he have some potential and room to grow as a PG, yes, of course he does; but he doesn't have the type of potential that some fans state and/or claim he has when compared to other (current) NBA guards. He's already 24 years of age when compared to kids with absolute sky high potential such as James Harden who's only 23, Paul George (SF) who's only 22, Damian Lillard who's only 22, John Wall who's only 22, Jrue Holiday who's only 22, Ricky Rubio who's only 22, Kemba Walker who's only 22, Kyrie Irving who's only 21 etc. Those kids have true potential when compared to Jeremy Lin.
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#616 » by barborous » Sun Apr 7, 2013 12:09 am

^Ahhh, I've missed not reading your dissertations NYK Mentality. For a while I was really worried because all your posts were of reasonable length and I was worried that you'd lost your touch and I'd have to start reading your posts. Forgive me for doubting.

In other news Wall is killing it. Dayummmmm.
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#617 » by NYKMentality85 » Sun Apr 7, 2013 12:09 am

Lets be truthful here, Jeremy Lin only has a Player Efficiency Rating of 15.11 which only ranks 36th amongst NBA PG's and/or his Player Efficiency Rating of 15.11 only ranks 142nd amongst all NBA player. He's a decent to good role player but he's far (and I mean far) from being any type of star material. Or anything close to it. I believe it's more than obvious that our current Knicks team doesn't have any room for a young, developing, inexperienced PG during a win now type of season. Why some of us are still stuck on Jeremy Lin of all players is beyond me especially considering the fact he's been replaced by a true veteran at the point in Felton. Just to compare the two...

Ray: FG% of.425, 3PT% of .354, FT% of .787 along with an average of 14.0 points, 5.5 assists, 2.8 assists, 1.4 steals and 2.3 turnovers per game. Assist Per Turnover Ratio of 2.32. Player Efficiency Rating of 15.16.

Lin: FG% of .444, 3PT% of .344, FT% of .785 along with an average of 13.1 points, 6.1 assists, 3.0 assists, 1.7 steals and 2.9 turnovers per game. Assist Per Turnover Ratio of 2.09. Player Efficiency Rating of 15.11.

I'm not quite sure what the problem seems to be.

Lastly; If Jeremy Lin (truly) wanted to remain a Knick (as some say), he'll sign with the Knicks (for cheaper) as a free agent after Houston's developed him for 3 years and if not, then so be it because Lin is getting paid $25,123,938 when compared to Felton who's only getting $12,540,000 over the next three years. And I'm sorry but Lin's current production doesn't warrant a difference of $12,583,938 when compared to Felton. Last but not least by our Knicks front office paying Jeremy Lin as a team we'd have zero chance of extending both of J.R Smith and Steve Novak along with matching Shumpert's team option of $2,761,113 come 2014/2015. There's a bigger picture here and we're better off without him.
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#618 » by Thugger HBC » Sun Apr 7, 2013 12:13 am

Getouttahea22 wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:
Getouttahea22 wrote:
I'm not sure people are dismissing his stats. It just seems like per game numbers without context should perhaps be examined more carefully WITH context. Wasn't that the issue with David Lee?

The only thing I see with Holiday is he is getting burnt out, pretty much as the whole team has.

None of them were this bad until they found out Bynum might not be back, that took alot of wind out of their sails, which climaxed with that presser that Collins had spilling his emotions on national TV.

Similar to the Bulls with Rose, except Thibbs still has them trying to play hard, but the edge they have every game isn't there anymore.


I guess that's possible. When was that presser anyways? Be interesting to see what happens with Bynum this off season. If you're Philly, do you try to sign him?

Btw speaking of the Bulls, did everyone see Boozer's nut shot? lol @ Shaq "That play was NUTS!"

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/tnt_o ... index.html

Listen to this ...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ8BBPJ3b9U[/youtube]

and this one which is well documented...

http://973espn.com/doug-collins-rips-team-after-loss-to-magic/
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#619 » by Tron Carter » Sun Apr 7, 2013 12:18 am

wiz up 4 on the pacers at the half

the great wall with 26 at the half
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Re: Around the nba part 7 

Post#620 » by GettinitDone » Sun Apr 7, 2013 12:21 am

NYKMentality85 wrote:Lets be truthful here, Jeremy Lin only has a Player Efficiency Rating of 15.11 which only ranks 36th amongst NBA PG's and/or his Player Efficiency Rating of 15.11 only ranks 142nd amongst all NBA player. He's a decent to good role player but he's far (and I mean far) from being any type of star material. Or anything close to it. I believe it's more than obvious that our current Knicks team doesn't have any room for a young, developing, inexperienced PG during a win now type of season. Why some of us are still stuck on Jeremy Lin of all players is beyond me especially considering the fact he's been replaced by a true veteran at the point in Felton. Just to compare the two...

Ray: FG% of.425, 3PT% of .354, FT% of .787 along with an average of 14.0 points, 5.5 assists, 2.8 assists, 1.4 steals and 2.3 turnovers per game. Assist Per Turnover Ratio of 2.32. Player Efficiency Rating of 15.16.
a
Lin: FG% of .444, 3PT% of .344, FT% of .785 along with an average of 13.1 points, 6.1 assists, 3.0 assists, 1.7 steals and 2.9 turnovers per game. Assist Per Turnover Ratio of 2.09. Player Efficiency Rating of 15.11.

I'm not quite sure what the problem seems to be.

Lastly; If Jeremy Lin (truly) wanted to remain a Knick (as some say), he'll sign with the Knicks (for cheaper) as a free agent after Houston's developed him for 3 years and if not, then so be it because Lin is getting paid $25,123,938 when compared to Felton who's only getting $12,540,000 over the next three years. And I'm sorry but Lin's current production doesn't warrant a difference of $12,583,938 when compared to Felton. Last but not least by our Knicks front office paying Jeremy Lin as a team we'd have zero chance of extending both of J.R Smith and Steve Novak along with matching Shumpert's team option of $2,761,113 come 2014/2015. There's a bigger picture here and we're better off without him.



In regards to Lin, you can't teach his game IQ, you can't teach his vision, his passing skill, his uncanny ability for spacing and making his teammates pass the ball when he's on the floor, you can't teach his clutch gene, work ethic, and you can't teach his instincts and nose for the ball on defensive end.

You don't succeed strictly based on just talent like the Roses, Irvings, Westbrooks, Currys. You can also succeed based on the qualities above... being smart, being hard-working, having great feel of the game instead of just talent.

Also, you gotta remember those guards have NO ball dominator like James Harden. NONE of them has to deal with being "demoted" from being the main handler to being a corner spot up shooter. NONE. Tell me when Rose, Irving, Wall, Curry had to be that spot up catch and shoot corner shooter. They get to handle the ball, they get to dribble for 10-15 seconds and finding their groove. Lin is not allowed such luxury (except when Harden is out). You can come up with any stat you want, but proof is Lin always produces (38pts on Spurs when Harden was injured) and other performances like OKC (29pts & 9assists) that are not simply the typical brand of "scrubs" or "flash in the pan". Last, you gotta factor in the games played experience too instead of age. A player who keeps improving with only 110 games played, playing at the level he's playing at, it's pretty good, and you can safely say he has promising future. Look back at Chauncey Billups and Steve Nash in their first 4-5 years in the L and can help you relate that "some of these guys need time to develop". You act as if you know for certain that 13ppg and 6apg is Lin's ceiling and he can't improve, which is ridiculous for a guy as hard working as he is.

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