OT: Clinton or Bush?

[DOT]

Donald the Dove who dropped more bombs in 4 years than Obama did in 8 and under who civilian deaths went up…..

I think y'all know Biden/Harris's actions and policies are completely indefensible, because you never actually defend them, just whatabout Trump them

I can at least be honest, when I vote for Kamala in November, I am voting to support a genocide because both parties support the genocide of the Palestinian people

It's also just straight up not gonna convince people to vote for Kamala to just ignore criticisms of her and deflect to Trump. Cause all you're really doing is giving more ammo to the bad faith "both sides bad" people.

It's Biden's administration, not hers though

And that's the only reason it isn't a bigger sticking point. Biden's directly tied to it, he keeps bypassing Congress to send bombs hand over fist to Israel. Kamala hasn't yet

Kamala will not be functionally any different for the Palestinian people than Biden is. "Nothing will fundamentally change" is the Dem motto after all.

[MrDollarBills]

Clearly Trump would bring peace immediately

Donald the Dove who dropped more bombs in 4 years than Obama did in 8 and under who civilian deaths went up…..

I think y'all know Biden/Harris's actions and policies are completely indefensible, because you never actually defend them, just whatabout Trump them

I can at least be honest, when I vote for Kamala in November, I am voting to support a genocide because both parties support the genocide of the Palestinian people

It's also just straight up not gonna convince people to vote for Kamala to just ignore criticisms of her and deflect to Trump. Cause all you're really doing is giving more ammo to the bad faith "both sides bad" people.

And Netenyahu wants this. That's the part that is aggravating. He knows full well the Democrats can fracture if he keeps pushing the envelope because Biden simply cannot pull funding without blowback from all angles. He's starting a wide regional war to keep himself out of jail and to help Trump win so he gets his much wanted green light.

I'm under no illusions about what my vote for Harris means. I can't defend funding Israel's crap. I just don't have any other choice.

[Stannis]

Gaza
West Bank
Lebanon
Now Yemen

This conflict isn't slowing down.

Clearly Trump would bring peace immediately

Donald the Dove who dropped more bombs in 4 years than Obama did in 8 and under who civilian deaths went up…..

Nobody here is saying that Donald would be better here. But that doesn't mean Biden is free from criticisms

I think the real question is why Biden's policy here so close to Trump's? Why does Biden support Bibi and a far-right government?

Do you remember Biden as VP butting heads with POTUS Obama regarding the colonizing ("settlements") by Israel? Or do you really think it's just coincidence that people are upset with Biden's handling of the issue compared Obama's?

Biden was the guy Israelis looked to for support, they say, implying that Obama was… less supportive. Biden was the guy who bridged differences created by the mutual distrust between Obama and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-good-cop-joe-biden-and-israel-during-the-obama-years/

[Stannis]

Donald the Dove who dropped more bombs in 4 years than Obama did in 8 and under who civilian deaths went up…..

I think y'all know Biden/Harris's actions and policies are completely indefensible, because you never actually defend them, just whatabout Trump them

I can at least be honest, when I vote for Kamala in November, I am voting to support a genocide because both parties support the genocide of the Palestinian people

It's also just straight up not gonna convince people to vote for Kamala to just ignore criticisms of her and deflect to Trump. Cause all you're really doing is giving more ammo to the bad faith "both sides bad" people.

And Netenyahu wants this. That's the part that is aggravating. He knows full well the Democrats can fracture if he keeps pushing the envelope because Biden simply cannot pull funding without blowback from all angles. He's starting a wide regional war to keep himself out of jail and to help Trump win so he gets his much wanted green light.

I'm under no illusions about what my vote for Harris means. I can't defend funding Israel's crap. I just don't have any other choice.

The bolded isn't necessarily true. And it doesn't have to be a full on "funding pull".

I stole this from the CA board. But I think it applies here. Biden is just doing a terrible job here. And in a lot of ways, it's selfish as it won't hurt him. It can only hurt Kamala in November.

Which US president in the past 40 years would have done anything but continue to support Israel?

This has been discussed already.

Reagan forced Begin out of Lebanon, HW Bush held loans in exchange for a stop on settlements and this in part led to Rabin winning the next election, Clinton secured a promise from Rabin for Israel to recognize the Golan Heights as Syrian territory, Obama also tried to stop settlement construction (and was undermined by....Joe Biden lol).

Look, no one is dumb enough to believe the US would stop supporting Israel, but historically, the US at least tried to contain Israel's actions when they went overboard even if they always had bias in favor of them.

Both Trump and Biden have gone against the precedent and just let Israel do whatever they want.

[Handledatruth]

Going to tell you guys now since I am in the area. Pennsylvannia will be a problem. Voter registration numbers don't look great for the Dems when compared between 2020 and now. The Republicans have really ramped up registration in that area. Also every poll has the general election close, but the same polls showing Senate race have Casey from the Democratic party far ahead. Basically this is not simple tribalism and voters in PA "seem" likely do a split ticket vote. If Dems don't get the turnout necessary (and honestly the registration numbers are worrying here), then Harris will be relying on the Independents and "undecideds". And since I am in the area to see all the ads, Trump and the Republicans have an all out blitz over here. Harris needs to step it up over here for these last 40+ days to shut the door on Trump's campaign. That economic speech in Pittsburg was a great start, so we'll see what she does moving forward.

[MrDollarBills]

I think y'all know Biden/Harris's actions and policies are completely indefensible, because you never actually defend them, just whatabout Trump them

I can at least be honest, when I vote for Kamala in November, I am voting to support a genocide because both parties support the genocide of the Palestinian people

It's also just straight up not gonna convince people to vote for Kamala to just ignore criticisms of her and deflect to Trump. Cause all you're really doing is giving more ammo to the bad faith "both sides bad" people.

And Netenyahu wants this. That's the part that is aggravating. He knows full well the Democrats can fracture if he keeps pushing the envelope because Biden simply cannot pull funding without blowback from all angles. He's starting a wide regional war to keep himself out of jail and to help Trump win so he gets his much wanted green light.

I'm under no illusions about what my vote for Harris means. I can't defend funding Israel's crap. I just don't have any other choice.

This bit isn't true:

That's the part that is aggravating. He knows full well the Democrats can fracture if he keeps pushing the envelope because Biden simply cannot pull funding without blowback from all angles.

I stole this from the CA board. But I think it applies here.

Which US president in the past 40 years would have done anything but continue to support Israel?

This has been discussed already.

Reagan forced Begin out of Lebanon, HW Bush held loans in exchange for a stop on settlements and this in part led to Rabin winning the next election, Clinton secured a promise from Rabin for Israel to recognize the Golan Heights as Syrian territory, Obama also tried to stop settlement construction (and was undermined by....Joe Biden lol).

Look, no one is dumb enough to believe the US would stop supporting Israel, but historically, the US at least tried to contain Israel's actions when they went overboard even if they always had bias in favor of them.

Both Trump and Biden have gone against the precedent and just let Israel do whatever they want.

What part isn't true? That Biden wouldn't receive blowback if he pulls funding? Especially a week away from the 1st Anniversary of October 7th? He absolutely would and could possibly risk support for Harris going up in flames from Pro Israeli folks. The damage done last year by Hamas gave Bibi the greatest gift he could have ever imagined.

Or that Netanyahu isn't purposely escalating things to help him stay out of jail and help Trump win re election by turning Democrats against Biden and Harris?

I don't think either of those things are false.

This is a no win situation on several fronts and I can't pretend that it's not, or act like I know the answer either.

[DOT]

I'm under no illusions about what my vote for Harris means. I can't defend funding Israel's crap. I just don't have any other choice.

And that's all you can really say

It's the trolley problem. No matter what you do, people will die, just some people can stomach actively participating if it means less people die. Some people can't justify it morally. And some are just using it as an excuse to be lazy, but that's much less common

If you can't justify pulling the lever from a moral standpoint, there's not much can be said. Pointing out more people will die won't do anything because for those people, it's never been about raw math, and maybe they have a point. But it's the people who ignore the question and just mock people that are really not helping y'all convince people. Like I said, it just gives the bad faith actors trying to paint both sides as the same more ammo.

[MrDollarBills]

I'm under no illusions about what my vote for Harris means. I can't defend funding Israel's crap. I just don't have any other choice.

And that's all you can really say

It's the trolley problem. No matter what you do, people will die, just some people can stomach actively participating if it means less people die. Some people can't justify it morally. And some are just using it as an excuse to be lazy, but that's much less common

If you can't justify pulling the lever from a moral standpoint, there's not much can be said. Pointing out more people will die won't do anything because for those people, it's never been about raw math, and maybe they have a point. But it's the people who ignore the question and just mock people that are really not helping y'all convince people. Like I said, it just gives the bad faith actors trying to paint both sides as the same more ammo.

Right, I really have nothing else to say. For me a vote for Harris means several things. Unfortunately it also means that the killing isn't going to stop. I can't justify that, but I cannot risk the alternative for me personally or those that I care about, on top of the people who are actively endangered under another Trump win.

My question is to people who cannot bring themselves to vote for Harris is: What is the alternative? Like I totally understand how you feel. I honestly think you guys are way better than me, because i'm older and now jaded about all of this. I don't think the conflict will ever end. But what else is there that we can do?

Do i think that Harris will green light a full blown genocide? No I don't, but that doesn't mean that people aren't going to be killed. They absolutely will be.

I absolutely think a Trump victory ensures a fully unleashed IDF that wipes the Palestinians out completely. That doesn't include the chaos and death that will happen at home. Or the fact that it opens the flood gates for Russia and China to run wild on Europe and Taiwan.

What is the answer here? I don't have one. I can only vote my conscience and what will do the least damage here at home and globally. That's the only thing that I can feasibly do other than pretending that I'm above the fray and not voting at all, but a protest vote or not voting only helps one side and it's definitely not helping the Palestinians or anyone else.

[Stannis]

The objective was always Iran.

If USA couldn't even get Afghanistan to buy into western principles, good luck trying to get Iran to with the help of Israel.

This is already sounding very expensive.

Read on Twitter

[thebuzzardman]

Clearly Trump would bring peace immediately

Donald the Dove who dropped more bombs in 4 years than Obama did in 8 and under who civilian deaths went up…..

Nobody here is saying that Donald would be better here. But that doesn't mean Biden is free from criticisms

I think the real question is why Biden's policy here so close to Trump's? Why does Biden support Bibi and a far-right government?

Do you remember Biden as VP butting heads with POTUS Obama regarding the colonizing ("settlements") by Israel? Or do you really think it's just coincidence that people are upset with Biden's handling of the issue compared Obama's?

Biden was the guy Israelis looked to for support, they say, implying that Obama was… less supportive. Biden was the guy who bridged differences created by the mutual distrust between Obama and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-good-cop-joe-biden-and-israel-during-the-obama-years/

Because the US has supported Israel for over 60 years. More like 80.
For a host of reasons, mostly good but not completely.

There are valid questions around if one administration let's them do more or less etc, but they are never widely different. For good or ill.

[MrDollarBills]

The objective was always Iran.

If USA couldn't even get Afghanistan to buy into the western principles, good luck trying to get Iran to via Israel.

Read on Twitter

I want to beat his ass so badly

[Stannis]

Decapitation assassinations don’t win wars. Wars are won on the ground and the IDF is not prepared for a ground fight with Hezbollah. Netanyahu is trying to save his own skin at the expense of the hostages and the Israeli people, or what’s left of them. So many have left the country already and its economy is in shambles.

This is all a function of U.S. imperialism. We want to be in the Middle East in order to keep an eye on that oil and the Suez Canal/Red Sea waterways. “U.S. ‘interests’.”

From what I read, it looks like those Israeli people are already coming back.

Israel does have a birth crisis like many other countries. But they are able to "import" new Israeli citizens from other countries + recruit new IDF soldiers. From what I'm seeing, there's already bidding/colonizing going on for the land in Southern Lebanon.

As long as they have unconditional support, this is how it's going to be.

I get a lot of backlash for my family from this... but Saudi Arabia has also been very sneaky in all of this, more than Israel in a lot of ways. At least Israel is out in the open with their hatred and ambitions. But the Saudis get to kind of sit back and watch Israel battle the Shai + Persian countries. And they can just play along and blame Iran for everything.

Spoiler:

EDIT:

Israel tells Washington it plans imminent ground operation in Lebanon, U.S. official says
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/09/30/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-hamas-war-news-gaza/

[HarthorneWingo]

Decapitation assassinations don’t win wars. Wars are won on the ground and the IDF is not prepared for a ground fight with Hezbollah. Netanyahu is trying to save his own skin at the expense of the hostages and the Israeli people, or what’s left of them. So many have left the country already and its economy is in shambles.

This is all a function of U.S. imperialism. We want to be in the Middle East in order to keep an eye on that oil and the Suez Canal/Red Sea waterways. “U.S. ‘interests’.”

From what I read, it looks like those Israeli people are already coming back.

Israel does have a birth crisis like many other countries. But they are able to "import" new Israeli citizens from other countries + recruit new IDF soldiers. From what I'm seeing, there's already bidding/colonizing going on for the land in Southern Lebanon.

As long as they have unconditional support, this is how it's going to be.

I get a lot of backlash for my family from this... but Saudi Arabia has also been very sneaky in all of this, more than Israel in a lot of ways. At least Israel is out in the open with their hatred and ambitions. But the Saudis get to kind of sit back and watch Israel battle the Shai + Persian countries. And they can just play along and blame Iran for everything.

Spoiler:

EDIT:

Israel tells Washington it plans imminent ground operation in Lebanon, U.S. official says
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/09/30/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-hamas-war-news-gaza/

Biden sent 40,000 troops there last week.

[Pointgod]

Clearly Trump would bring peace immediately

Donald the Dove who dropped more bombs in 4 years than Obama did in 8 and under who civilian deaths went up…..

I think y'all know Biden/Harris's actions and policies are completely indefensible, because you never actually defend them, just whatabout Trump them

I can at least be honest, when I vote for Kamala in November, I am voting to support a genocide because both parties support the genocide of the Palestinian people

It's also just straight up not gonna convince people to vote for Kamala to just ignore criticisms of her and deflect to Trump. Cause all you're really doing is giving more ammo to the bad faith "both sides bad" people.

I can easily defend Biden’s polices and actions.
- Not emboldening dictators
-Strenghing European alliances by supporting Ukraine
-Significantly dropping overseas drone strikes (people on the left used to care about this)
- Committing to the withdrawal of Afghanistan even if it was because of a horrible deal

You have to look at the foreign policy in totality, not just one issue. And it’s right to bring up Trump because it’s either Harris’ policy or Trump’s. It’s a direct comparison between the two.

I think there’s been some insane gaslighting and completely disingenuous to say Harris and Biden support genocide. One Harris is the VP, she doesn’t make decisions and it would be irresponsible for her to talk policy out in the open undermining her boss. Two if Biden was pro genocide he wouldn’t have his administration negotiating multiple ceasefires or send aide to Gaza. He’s trying to walk a political tightrope where he’s in a no win situation and Harris winning is literally the only chance to deescalate tensions in the Middle East. You may believe it’s the wrong approach but Biden isn’t going to make any unprecedented decision that could throw the election to Trump.

[ScienceOfLosing]

The objective was always Iran.

If USA couldn't even get Afghanistan to buy into western principles, good luck trying to get Iran to with the help of Israel.

This is already sounding very expensive.

Read on Twitter

And note, it was (supposedly) Iran funding the latest Trump assassinstion plot.
Lines up perfectly for them.

[DOT]

I can easily defend Biden’s polices and actions.
- Not emboldening dictators
-Strenghing European alliances by supporting Ukraine
-Significantly dropping overseas drone strikes (people on the left used to care about this)
- Committing to the withdrawal of Afghanistan even if it was because of a horrible deal

I don't see anything in here defending Biden bypassing Congress to send Israel arms to fund their genocide of Gaza, just deflections to other actions

Talk about insane gaslighting and being completely disingenuous.

[ScienceOfLosing]

Gaza
West Bank
Lebanon
Now Yemen

This conflict isn't slowing down.

Clearly Trump would bring peace immediately

Donald the Dove who dropped more bombs in 4 years than Obama did in 8 and under who civilian deaths went up…..

Are those bombs why he all but wiped out ISIS in a few months, instead of years (as his military advisors said it would take?)
Makes sense, as he was the first President since Carter to not enter US troops into a new conflict.
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-first-president-since-jimmy-carter-not-enter-us-troops-new-conflict-1549037

[DOT]

Also, the Biden admin deliberately hid intel which would have triggered an automatic pause on funding for Israel. Biden set a "red line" in Rafah months ago, Israel bombed it the next day and nothing happened. It's pretty clear where he stands on the matter, lying or pretending otherwise just makes you look naïve at best and like I said, just gives the "both sides" people more talking points.

[thebuzzardman]

Dikembe at the pearly gates when Trump attempts to barge into heaven:

[Pointgod]

Clearly Trump would bring peace immediately

Donald the Dove who dropped more bombs in 4 years than Obama did in 8 and under who civilian deaths went up…..

Nobody here is saying that Donald would be better here. But that doesn't mean Biden is free from criticisms

I think the real question is why Biden's policy here so close to Trump's? Why does Biden support Bibi and a far-right government?

Do you remember Biden as VP butting heads with POTUS Obama regarding the colonizing ("settlements") by Israel? Or do you really think it's just coincidence that people are upset with Biden's handling of the issue compared Obama's?

Biden was the guy Israelis looked to for support, they say, implying that Obama was… less supportive. Biden was the guy who bridged differences created by the mutual distrust between Obama and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-good-cop-joe-biden-and-israel-during-the-obama-years/

How is Biden’s foreign policy the same as Trump? This is the insanity I was talking about earlier. Let me remind you what Trump has done and said about the Middle East:

During his first term, Trump was one of the most pro-Israel US presidents. He recognized Israel’s controversial annexation of the Golan Heights and the country’s capital as Jerusalem, despite the fact that control of Jerusalem has been a sticking point in negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians for decades.

https://www.vox.com/politics/353037/trump-gaza-israel-protests-biden-election-2024

In statements since the war began, Trump has promised, if elected, to cut off all US aid to Palestinians and urged other nations to follow suit if he returns to the Oval Office.
The former president also pledged to bar refugees from Gaza under an expansion of his first-term travel ban on Muslim-majority countries; expel immigrants who sympathize with Hamas; revoke the visas of foreign students deemed “anti-American” or “antisemitic”; and impose “strong ideological screening” to keep out foreign nationals who “want to abolish Israel”.

[url]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/apr/25/trump-presidency-israel-gaza-middle-east-crisis
[/url]

“As you know, there have been two assassination attempts on my life that we know of, and they may or may not involve — but possibly do — Iran,” Trump said at a campaign event in North Carolina.

“If I were the president, I would inform the threatening country, in this case Iran, that if you do anything to harm this person, we are going to blow your largest cities and the country itself to smithereens,” he added.

Days later, Trump posted on social media that if Iran did kill him, “I hope that America obliterates Iran, wipes it off the face of the Earth.”

If you want to criticize Biden’s Middle East policy have at it but you can’t ignore the context that it’s in. Israel suffered the worst terrorist attack in the country’s history, this was close to an election year for the U.S. President, both Israeli and Gaza governments are run by uncompromising pieces of **** that want to see Trump win and you have to be fair regarding what the alternative (Trump) would look like.

I definitely believe Biden has a blind spot for Israel out of some nostalgia and his policy of hugging Netanyahu has failed. I also realize that he could say tomorrow that he’d veto any more weapons to Israel and not only would he not pick up a single vote from those on the left that were threatening to sit out or vote third party but he’d lose reliable votes and nothing would change in Gaza because Israel could still continue their war without U.S. support.