Game Thread: New York KNICKS at Cleveland Cavaliers Fri, Feb 21, 2025 7:00pm ESPN

[BBALLER4FR]

Brunson, KAT, OG and Bridges have some soul searching to do this offseason. If Thibs is going to give you the lion's share of minutes, touches and decisions, you need to maximize them.

Disappointed in Brunson's trust level of anybody not in the SL.
Hate KAT's complaining, lack of defense and rebounding (though the last 2 are part of his DNA)
Disgusted by Bridges lack of care. He looks like he is no constant cardio mode.
OG was a huge mistake. Bigger than the Bridges heist BKN pulled.

Seasons over rite? No need to get Mitch and OG back up to speed and Hart back...let's just skip the playoffs...brother what are you complaining about KAT rebounding he's second in the league in boards. I get people get down after losses but nobody gonna remember this game come playoff time, the season also won't be over after Sunday.

This Mitch talk has dragged on. The hype is too much. You really think Mitch saves us from teams lobbing 3pters all over the place? Please explain.

OG looked like crap and he appears to injure/re-injure his foot. You counting on his longevity? OK. I'll bite.

Hart played when we played Boston AND OKC.

You really think a combination of tired, hurt, uninvolved players is going to resurrect and catapult a team that relys on Brunson/KAT/Hart to play at peak performance and the defense to click on all cylinders? Best of luck my friend.

[BBALLER4FR]

THey shot 61 F*CKING percent!

[mpharris36]

If he takes the toughest matchup every night, and does a good job at it, it should reflect on his impact metrics.

I'm not going down the rabbit hole of discussing your finding whichever counterintuitive piece of data in the best impact metric around to question the pertinence of the metric because it doesn't suit your conclusions.

And yes, Josh Hart doesn't have an outsize impact on winning because he hurts our spacing and he's not a great defender. And he's my favorite Knick. He certainly isn't worth 4 unprotected firsts, an unprotected pick swap, and a protected first, yet he's played better than Mikal this season.

Aaron Wiggins has been a solid contributor on the best team in the NBA by the way.

I don't understand why you keep having blinders on for some players when the data and most sensible people around you show they're nowhere near as good as you think. You're a stubborn man lol.

its half a year with a brand new team...if you just look at underlying metrics and not the game its robot talk. I'm very analytically driven but you have to be able to use analytics to match up with the eye test.

He isn't even being used effectively by the coach in his first year and still is having a good season.

Your not factoring in the CBA, his contract flexibility, giving no rotation palyers, his want to be hear and sign a extension problem that is more team friendly like brunson.

You just say bad deal because of EPM...come on what are we doing here...

Eh no, I don't base that just off EPM, let alone for this season.

He hasn't helped transform our defense this year. You don't need impact metrics to see it. He's had some great games/plays defensively, but he hasn't brought consistent defensive impact. This isn't about being used effectively by the coach.

And on coaching - he wasn't good in Brooklyn offensively last year either. He was just... slightly above-average I suppose. Just like he has been here.

You act like Mikal is some established difference-maker in the NBA. He has 0 All-Star appearances. 0 All-NBA appearances. Just 1 All-NBA defensive team appearance. And his career EPM doesn't suggest he was ever a difference-maker.

This is not someone you trade the farm for. 4 unprotected firsts, an unprotected swap and a protected 1st is an absurd price to pay.

I don't care about the contract or your confidence that he will take a discount. The Knicks had a lot of draft capital that they could leverage to elevate their talent level massively. And they used it on a player who doesn't.

a bunch of picks in the 20's isn't the farm bro...40% of them are conveying this season and they are going to be low value end of 1st round picks.

2027 won't be much better with our core locked up. 2029 maybe has a chance...and then 2031 might be good so its really one pick of risk to me.

completely disregarding the CBA...when you have JB, OG, and KAT locked up...how are you exactly fitting in another 40 MM contract player...you aren't but you are ignoring the CBA in terms of value.

his value isn't just on the court...more so than now teams are having to manage the CBA...its unsustainable if moves are considered with the CBA in mind. Just look around the league and name me the more impactful players in the 20 MM range....

[Chanel Bomber]

Not even close to the worst trade. You have to factor in his low salary, we didn’t give up any rotation player and most of the picks aren’t even that good. This isn’t even a serious conversation to say it’s the worst trade in 20 years…..not even the worst trade in the past month

I think it has the potential to be the worst trade since the SGA trade and the Billy King trade. I was not factoring in the Luka trade, it still hasn't fully registered with me lol.

4 unprotected first-round picks, an unprotected pick swap and a protected first to a crosstown rival for a player who barely makes a difference for your team? It's terrible value, sorry. I don't think a lesser player has ever been traded for this much draft capital. The only precedent I can think of is a washed Pierce and Garnett.

The only thing that would vindicate the trade would be a run to the NBA Finals. But a run to the Finals would likely be driven by Brunson and/or KAT, not by Mikal. But if he does make a positive contribution in a run to the Finals, then yes, I think the trade will have been worth it, even if he's never worth that price tag.

The NBA is highly unpredictable with injuries, locker room tensions, trades etc. I don't take it for granted that we'll be good in two years, let alone in 2029 or 2031.

He is making a difference. Just need to watch the game. EPM isn't a good indicator. The finals MVP has a 0.6 EPM.

The difference he's making is marginal at best.

I watch the games. He has good games here and then. He's not an offensive force unless he's in the zone from midrange, he's not a great floor spacer though teams still respect him, he's not much of a playmaker, and his defense tops out as above-average on the whole.

Jaylen Brown is not this massive difference-maker for Boston, and he's not having a great season. Tatum is by far Boston's best player, followed by their top-end depth with the combination KP, Holiday, White and Brown.

EPM is the best public impact metric around. Sorry that these don't paint your boys Mikal and RJ as good as you guys think they are. It's not the metric's fault. Nobody values them as much as you guys do.

[LFGK]

Brunson, KAT, OG and Bridges have some soul searching to do this offseason. If Thibs is going to give you the lion's share of minutes, touches and decisions, you need to maximize them.

Disappointed in Brunson's trust level of anybody not in the SL.
Hate KAT's complaining, lack of defense and rebounding (though the last 2 are part of his DNA)
Disgusted by Bridges lack of care. He looks like he is no constant cardio mode.
OG was a huge mistake. Bigger than the Bridges heist BKN pulled.

Seasons over rite? No need to get Mitch and OG back up to speed and Hart back...let's just skip the playoffs...brother what are you complaining about KAT rebounding he's second in the league in boards. I get people get down after losses but nobody gonna remember this game come playoff time, the season also won't be over after Sunday.

This Mitch talk has dragged on. The hype is too much. You really think Mitch saves us from teams lobbing 3pters all over the place? Please explain.

OG looked like crap and he appears to injure/re-injure his foot. You counting on his longevity? OK. I'll bite.

Hart played when we played Boston AND OKC.

You really think a combination of tired, hurt, uninvolved players is going to resurrect and catapult a team that relys on Brunson/KAT/Hart to play at peak performance and the defense to click on all cylinders? Best of luck my friend.

Why is I hype? He is the best offensive rebounder in the game and an absolute beast in the middle. Yes with Mitch Bridges and OG will be able to play more tight. OG just got back after some time off, what did you expect from him
His first game back? Let everyone laugh because of the OKC/BOS/CLE games but they will see the final version of this Knick team real soon

[BBALLER4FR]

Seasons over rite? No need to get Mitch and OG back up to speed and Hart back...let's just skip the playoffs...brother what are you complaining about KAT rebounding he's second in the league in boards. I get people get down after losses but nobody gonna remember this game come playoff time, the season also won't be over after Sunday.

This Mitch talk has dragged on. The hype is too much. You really think Mitch saves us from teams lobbing 3pters all over the place? Please explain.

OG looked like crap and he appears to injure/re-injure his foot. You counting on his longevity? OK. I'll bite.

Hart played when we played Boston AND OKC.

You really think a combination of tired, hurt, uninvolved players is going to resurrect and catapult a team that relys on Brunson/KAT/Hart to play at peak performance and the defense to click on all cylinders? Best of luck my friend.

Why is I hype? He is the best offensive rebounder in the game and an absolute beast in the middle. Yes with Mitch Bridges and OG will be able to play more tight. OG just got back after some time off, what did you expect from him
His first game back? Let everyone laugh because of the OKC/BOS/CLE games but they will see the final version of this Knick team real soon

OG hurt his foot already. He played through it but his first injury was a phantom thing (vs. Lakers) and tonight he has a phantom foot issue. Do what you want but the pattern is....

Mitch is not stopping players from shooting 3's on us. Sure we get rebounds and we will deter rim penetration, but other teams are confident shooting against us. Bad shooters shoot great percentages against us. Lock down D is the remedy and these guys do NOT look like they have it in them. I do not expect us to go from getting blown out in every national televised game vs the top 3 teams to beating each of those teams in a 7 game series. Please be realistic.

[8516knicks]

no

People will say anything really

He’s a legit star. He beat Boston by himself one game in the playoffs last year before he got hurt.

How many championships has DM won? I must have missed them.

[8516knicks]

they legit came back with the same defensive scheme from the 1st half........i mean this is a **** joke

"The game will tell u what to do."

[Deeeez Knicks]

I think it has the potential to be the worst trade since the SGA trade and the Billy King trade. I was not factoring in the Luka trade, it still hasn't fully registered with me lol.

4 unprotected first-round picks, an unprotected pick swap and a protected first to a crosstown rival for a player who barely makes a difference for your team? It's terrible value, sorry. I don't think a lesser player has ever been traded for this much draft capital. The only precedent I can think of is a washed Pierce and Garnett.

The only thing that would vindicate the trade would be a run to the NBA Finals. But a run to the Finals would likely be driven by Brunson and/or KAT, not by Mikal. But if he does make a positive contribution in a run to the Finals, then yes, I think the trade will have been worth it, even if he's never worth that price tag.

The NBA is highly unpredictable with injuries, locker room tensions, trades etc. I don't take it for granted that we'll be good in two years, let alone in 2029 or 2031.

He is making a difference. Just need to watch the game. EPM isn't a good indicator. The finals MVP has a 0.6 EPM.

The difference he's making is marginal at best.

I watch the games. He has good games here and then. He's not an offensive force unless he's in the zone from midrange, he's not a great floor spacer though teams still respect him, he's not much of a playmaker, and his defense tops out as above-average on the whole.

Jaylen Brown is not this massive difference-maker for Boston, and he's not having a great season. Tatum is by far Boston's best player, followed by their top-end depth with the combination KP, Holiday, White and Brown.

EPM is the best public impact metric around. Sorry that these don't paint your boys Mikal and RJ as good as you guys think they are. It's not the metric's fault. Nobody values them as much as you guys do.

Mikal Bridges 1.0 epm
Jrue Holiday: 0.2 epm
Jaylen Brown: 0.7 epm
IQ: 0.6 epm
RJ Barrett: 0.7 epm

So….RJ is significantly better then Jrue Holiday, better then IQ at 0.6 epm and same player as Jaylen Brown? And Mikal is significantly better than them all?

Its saying RJ is a positive player and for years you were saying he’s a big net negative.

[Chanel Bomber]

its half a year with a brand new team...if you just look at underlying metrics and not the game its robot talk. I'm very analytically driven but you have to be able to use analytics to match up with the eye test.

He isn't even being used effectively by the coach in his first year and still is having a good season.

Your not factoring in the CBA, his contract flexibility, giving no rotation palyers, his want to be hear and sign a extension problem that is more team friendly like brunson.

You just say bad deal because of EPM...come on what are we doing here...

Eh no, I don't base that just off EPM, let alone for this season.

He hasn't helped transform our defense this year. You don't need impact metrics to see it. He's had some great games/plays defensively, but he hasn't brought consistent defensive impact. This isn't about being used effectively by the coach.

And on coaching - he wasn't good in Brooklyn offensively last year either. He was just... slightly above-average I suppose. Just like he has been here.

You act like Mikal is some established difference-maker in the NBA. He has 0 All-Star appearances. 0 All-NBA appearances. Just 1 All-NBA defensive team appearance. And his career EPM doesn't suggest he was ever a difference-maker.

This is not someone you trade the farm for. 4 unprotected firsts, an unprotected swap and a protected 1st is an absurd price to pay.

I don't care about the contract or your confidence that he will take a discount. The Knicks had a lot of draft capital that they could leverage to elevate their talent level massively. And they used it on a player who doesn't.

a bunch of picks in the 20's isn't the farm bro...40% of them are conveying this season and they are going to be low value end of 1st round picks.

2027 won't be much better with our core locked up. 2029 maybe has a chance...and then 2031 might be good so its really one pick of risk to me.

completely disregarding the CBA...when you have JB, OG, and KAT locked up...how are you exactly fitting in another 40 MM contract player...you aren't but you are ignoring the CBA in terms of value.

his value isn't just on the court...more so than now teams are having to manage the CBA...its unsustainable if moves are considered with the CBA in mind. Just look around the league and name me the more impactful players in the 20 MM range....

Well, #1 it is the farm, because the Knicks no longer have any draft capital to package in a trade for a superstar.

And do you think the Nets thought they would find themselves in the lottery when they traded for Pierce and KG? They had just won 49 games with Deron Williams, Brook Lopez, and ISO Joe.

Granted, this core is younger, and the circumstances are different. But my point is that the NBA is very unpredictable and it could all unravel very quickly for reasons that we can't foresee today. Just one injury to KAT or Brunson and we could find ourselves missing the playoffs.

I fully understand the CBA. I mean not every detail lol but I get the restrictions that front offices have to operate under. My point is that you could have attached picks to one of your contracts in exchange for an upgrade in talent. I'm not saying he's even available, but the Knicks could have offered Towns and some unprotected firsts for Giannis for instance, or OG, salary filler, and all the picks for Giannis. We no longer have this option. And my point all along is that if we wanted to bring in a player who brings this level of impact (i.e., not a star), we could have traded for a lesser name (like Caruso, who's better on D) for fewer picks and kept some draft capital to maintain some level of flexibility for future moves.

Hopefully he just steps his game up closer to the playoffs. He's been fine and again I kind of like his game but you don't trade this much draft capital for "fine".

[3toheadmelo]

People will say anything really

He’s a legit star. He beat Boston by himself one game in the playoffs last year before he got hurt.

How many championships has DM won? I must have missed them.

Ah yes, you’re only a star if you win a championship. What an awful post.

[LFGK]

This Mitch talk has dragged on. The hype is too much. You really think Mitch saves us from teams lobbing 3pters all over the place? Please explain.

OG looked like crap and he appears to injure/re-injure his foot. You counting on his longevity? OK. I'll bite.

Hart played when we played Boston AND OKC.

You really think a combination of tired, hurt, uninvolved players is going to resurrect and catapult a team that relys on Brunson/KAT/Hart to play at peak performance and the defense to click on all cylinders? Best of luck my friend.

Why is I hype? He is the best offensive rebounder in the game and an absolute beast in the middle. Yes with Mitch Bridges and OG will be able to play more tight. OG just got back after some time off, what did you expect from him
His first game back? Let everyone laugh because of the OKC/BOS/CLE games but they will see the final version of this Knick team real soon

OG hurt his foot already. He played through it but his first injury was a phantom thing (vs. Lakers) and tonight he has a phantom foot issue. Do what you want but the pattern is....

Mitch is not stopping players from shooting 3's on us. Sure we get rebounds and we will deter rim penetration, but other teams are confident shooting against us. Bad shooters shoot great percentages against us. Lock down D is the remedy and these guys do NOT look like they have it in them. I do not expect us to go from getting blown out in every national televised game vs the top 3 teams to beating each of those teams in a 7 game series. Please be realistic.

Mitch doesn't stop it himself but the guys defending the 3's will play tighter with Mitch in the paint, I am being realistic we are missing our best rebounder and defensive presence in the middle. People act like we're adding vucevic in the middle and not Mitch. What happens if we win the next 2 games vs Cleveland before the season ends? Scr*w the narrative. The LeBron Cavs took 2 out of 2 from the spurs and then it swept(SMOKED) in the finals. I'm not putting stock into these games vs OKC/BOS/CLE, if once we're fully healthy and losing by 30 then we can have a convo

[Chanel Bomber]

He is making a difference. Just need to watch the game. EPM isn't a good indicator. The finals MVP has a 0.6 EPM.

The difference he's making is marginal at best.

I watch the games. He has good games here and then. He's not an offensive force unless he's in the zone from midrange, he's not a great floor spacer though teams still respect him, he's not much of a playmaker, and his defense tops out as above-average on the whole.

Jaylen Brown is not this massive difference-maker for Boston, and he's not having a great season. Tatum is by far Boston's best player, followed by their top-end depth with the combination KP, Holiday, White and Brown.

EPM is the best public impact metric around. Sorry that these don't paint your boys Mikal and RJ as good as you guys think they are. It's not the metric's fault. Nobody values them as much as you guys do.

Mikal Bridges 1.0 epm
Jrue Holiday: 0.2 epm
Jaylen Brown: 0.7 epm
IQ: 0.6 epm
RJ Barrett: 0.7 epm

So….RJ is significantly better then Jrue Holiday, better then IQ at 0.6 epm and same player as Jaylen Brown? And Mikal is significantly better than them all?

Its saying RJ is a positive player and for years you were saying he’s a big net negative.

It's the first season RJ has a positive EPM in his career. He was a big net negative for us, but it appears he's turning into a positive for his team, and that's nice to see. All I wanted for him was to contribute to his team's success, and he wasn't doing it for us, but I'm happy for him if he's doing that for his hometown. I don't watch the Raptors so I can't judge with my own eyes but I trust the metrics.

I think IQ will lap him again at some point - it's difficult to get into any sort of rhythm when you're in and out of the lineup constantly due to recurring injuries.

I think it's known that Jrue and Jaylen Brown are having down years. I haven't really watched them this season but you hear the same from the likes of Bill Simmons who obviously watch their games.

I can see Mikal being marginally better than all these guys. I never said he was bad for us. But I wouldn't trade 4 unprotected firsts, an unprotected swap and a protected first for any of those guys either, so I'm not sure I get your point.

[spree8]

I think it has the potential to be the worst trade since the SGA trade and the Billy King trade. I was not factoring in the Luka trade, it still hasn't fully registered with me lol.

4 unprotected first-round picks, an unprotected pick swap and a protected first to a crosstown rival for a player who barely makes a difference for your team? It's terrible value, sorry. I don't think a lesser player has ever been traded for this much draft capital. The only precedent I can think of is a washed Pierce and Garnett.

The only thing that would vindicate the trade would be a run to the NBA Finals. But a run to the Finals would likely be driven by Brunson and/or KAT, not by Mikal. But if he does make a positive contribution in a run to the Finals, then yes, I think the trade will have been worth it, even if he's never worth that price tag.

The NBA is highly unpredictable with injuries, locker room tensions, trades etc. I don't take it for granted that we'll be good in two years, let alone in 2029 or 2031.

He is making a difference. Just need to watch the game. EPM isn't a good indicator. The finals MVP has a 0.6 EPM.

The difference he's making is marginal at best.

I watch the games. He has good games here and then. He's not an offensive force unless he's in the zone from midrange, he's not a great floor spacer though teams still respect him, he's not much of a playmaker, and his defense tops out as above-average on the whole.

Jaylen Brown is not this massive difference-maker for Boston, and he's not having a great season. Tatum is by far Boston's best player, followed by their top-end depth with the combination KP, Holiday, White and Brown.

EPM is the best public impact metric around. Sorry that these don't paint your boys Mikal and RJ as good as you guys think they are. It's not the metric's fault. Nobody values them as much as you guys do.

I don’t understand how anyone can think you can boil down a whole human beings abilities and contribution to a team on both ends to just 1 metric. That’s the furthest thing from reality.

To downplay the impact Jaylen Brown’s had on Boston’s championship win just to push this metric is pretty head scratching. Nobody expects Mikal to be #1 or #2… he’s clearly 3rd or 4th depending on the day.

But according to this metric, having a player with more impact on winning than the Finals MVP/#2 option on the best team in the league, as our 3rd/4th option is pretty good no?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

they legit came back with the same defensive scheme from the 1st half........i mean this is a **** joke

"The game will tell u what to do."

I think I'm going to start bringing Thibsisms into my life.



"The relationship will tell you what to do"


Whenever a woman is mad at me, I think I'll just start saying that.

[K_ick_God]

they legit came back with the same defensive scheme from the 1st half........i mean this is a **** joke

"The game will tell u what to do."

I think I'm going to start bringing Thibsisms into my life.



"The relationship will tell you what to do"


Whenever a woman is mad at me, I think I'll just start saying that.

It should work to confuse the predator and keep you safe.

[Guano]

they legit came back with the same defensive scheme from the 1st half........i mean this is a **** joke

"The game will tell u what to do."

I think I'm going to start bringing Thibsisms into my life.



"The relationship will tell you what to do"


Whenever a woman is mad at me, I think I'll just start saying that.

there is a reason thibs is married to the game and not a woman

[NoDopeOnSundays]

"The game will tell u what to do."

I think I'm going to start bringing Thibsisms into my life.



"The relationship will tell you what to do"


Whenever a woman is mad at me, I think I'll just start saying that.

there is a reason thibs is married to the game and not a woman

I'm hoping the game divorces him soon.

[Deeeez Knicks]

The difference he's making is marginal at best.

I watch the games. He has good games here and then. He's not an offensive force unless he's in the zone from midrange, he's not a great floor spacer though teams still respect him, he's not much of a playmaker, and his defense tops out as above-average on the whole.

Jaylen Brown is not this massive difference-maker for Boston, and he's not having a great season. Tatum is by far Boston's best player, followed by their top-end depth with the combination KP, Holiday, White and Brown.

EPM is the best public impact metric around. Sorry that these don't paint your boys Mikal and RJ as good as you guys think they are. It's not the metric's fault. Nobody values them as much as you guys do.

Mikal Bridges 1.0 epm
Jrue Holiday: 0.2 epm
Jaylen Brown: 0.7 epm
IQ: 0.6 epm
RJ Barrett: 0.7 epm

So….RJ is significantly better then Jrue Holiday, better then IQ at 0.6 epm and same player as Jaylen Brown? And Mikal is significantly better than them all?

Its saying RJ is a positive player and for years you were saying he’s a big net negative.

It's the first season RJ has a positive EPM in his career. He was a big net negative for us, but it appears he's turning into a positive for his team, and that's nice to see. All I wanted for him was to contribute to his team's success, and he wasn't doing it for us, but I'm happy for him if he's doing that for his hometown. I don't watch the Raptors so I can't judge with my own eyes but I trust the metrics.

I think IQ will lap him again at some point - it's difficult to get into any sort of rhythm when you're in and out of the lineup constantly due to recurring injuries.

I think it's known that Jrue and Jaylen Brown are having down years. I haven't really watched them this season but you hear the same from the likes of Bill Simmons who obviously watch their games.

I can see Mikal being marginally better than all these guys. I never said he was bad for us. But I wouldn't trade 4 unprotected firsts, an unprotected swap and a protected first for any of those guys either, so I'm not sure I get your point.

Point is that metrics like epm aren’t meant to be used for rankings or in a vacuum. Just browse the list and it’s easy to see. They are interesting for sure, but its not an end all be all stat. Other stats like net ratings paint Mikal pretty highly. He’s been one of our best net rating players since Dec.

In terms of the Mikal trade, I don’t view that in a vacuum. His low salary allowed us to get KAT without giving up any other player. Take Mikal away and we are probably at least 5 games worse. It was a window to make a big move that was closing, and this was probably the best series of moves available at the time. We will see how it works out still. Knicks still have work to do, but don’t think they are stuck since they have mostly very tradeable contracts and players.

It’s the best team since the Ewing years. Maybe some tweaks and build some depth. Maybe one more big move. Don’t think we are done, but think we have a great core that if we make the right moves we can contend….or maybe even just get completely healthy and see where we are at. This game was disappointing but overall if you asked me 3 years ago, I would be happy with where we are at.

[KnixinSix]

Cant sayit enough.Thibs defensive system way too often without the elite defensive 5 gets flat out exposed vs better teams.

Look at what Boston and Celts just did to us. 140 like nothing?