[Camelo Thread Part 17] - Denver makes trade offer p58

[kane2021]

I came up with a theory in thinking this over last night. Thought I would throw it out there.

For awhile now I have felt that the nuggets would not trade anthony. And as the deadline approaches it makes even less sense to make a deal. Denver is stuck with a gutted playoff team. And being they want picks so bad, it hurts their draft position. Also hurts in the sense, that without their franchise player interest would be lost mid season in the team.

For the knicks, we lose assets. But more so, we have to reconstruct the offense with what ever is left. Thats a adjustment period. And the dead line marks nearly the 3/4 mark of the season. Meaning we are just that much closer to waiting for the summer and getting a fresh start.

The only benefit I see to the nuggets keeping Antony for the season is a farewell playoff run. The only benefit I see for the nuggets dragging their feet is it blocks the knicks from making other moves. Not just to improve the team, but more importantly opening up the additional cap space we need to sign anthony to a max deal.

It puts us in a position where we would have to make another last minute cap cutting deal. Like last season. The unknown of the off season also means we are not really sure what the cap will look like. And we need a minimum of 20 million to max Anthony out, and cover our draft pick. We would need to deal Ronny And Randolph for a expiring deal. Weakening our team and costing us further assets possibility. Including loosing chandler for nothing.

If the nuggets can drag this out to the final minutes, and Walsh, who has expressed regret in last season cap cutting move, it insures that denver and the knicks have to negotiate a s/t. Meaning they dont get nothing after all. Chandler has expressed that he does not want to go to denver. But once the writing is on the wall, priorities change and money becomes the only factor. None the less, the knicks will need to find 6 million in salary to deal to denver. EVEN if, Wilson decides to sign a deal with denver. That could be as simple and Ronny and AR. Or it could be gallo and AR.

Not that I think Walsh would deal gallo in a s/t. Its just a example of how these hard negotiation can still carry over to the off season. With the tide shifting to denvers favor.

But that is where the wolves come into play.

The wolves have expressed interest in AR. And have expressed interest in being a 3rd team. But more so than that, they have the cap space to absorb salary without having to send back anything but a TPE. That we can renounce and open up the cap space we need.

Just like they did with Miami when they took beasly.

The wolves could take both Ronny and AR in the off season for nothing but a 2nd. Maybe even get a freshly signed chandler if both sides see fit. (wilson and minny)

Then denver really gets nothing. And minny again, gets young assets for free.

Its really just a minor point. Nothing major. But my theory is Walsh has turned to his buddy in minny to put pressure on denver and eliminate the thought that they have a chance to continue to squeeze us in the off season. And really lose their franchise player for nothing. While they watch minny get the benefits, for nothing. Again.

[moocow007]

That's just the thing: If we overpay for Melo, you may not witness winning basketball. Giving up a lot for Melo just to say we have Amar'e and Melo ... that's an MSG sequel to The Marbury Era in my honest opinion.

Yea, I have 100% more confidence in this than the Lebron situation because hes from here, he wants to be here, his wife and kid live here year round etc. SAS made a good point too we have 4 former GM's working under 1 roof including Donnie Walsh and they should come up with a creative package to get the deal done. I also find it funny that Lebron left home and got criticized now Melo wants to come home and hes getting criticized.

The only thing that can derail this is if doesn't have the balls to stick by his conviction and decide that money is more important than going where he wants to go. Basically if he's willing to blink first and have his bluff be called.

[K_ick_God]

For awhile now I have felt that the nuggets would not trade anthony. And as the deadline approaches it makes even less sense to make a deal. Denver is stuck with a gutted playoff team. And being they want picks so bad, it hurts their draft position.

Wouldn't it help their draft position though?

[K_ick_God]

Kane, good theory (minus my one question). Minny does provide Walsh a very real trading partner who can allow the Knicks to steal Melo without compensating Denver at all.

[kane2021]

For awhile now I have felt that the nuggets would not trade anthony. And as the deadline approaches it makes even less sense to make a deal. Denver is stuck with a gutted playoff team. And being they want
picks so bad, it hurts their draft position.

Wouldn't it help their draft position though?

Yeah. They would get a better pick than it stands now. But my point is, you lose Anthony, and you dont get a great draft pick out of it. I dont think the nuggets are going to lose every game. They might even still make the playoffs for all we know.

[Pharmcat]

That's just the thing: If we overpay for Melo, you may not witness winning basketball. Giving up a lot for Melo just to say we have Amar'e and Melo ... that's an MSG sequel to The Marbury Era in my honest opinion.

Yea, I have 100% more confidence in this than the Lebron situation because hes from here, he wants to be here, his wife and kid live here year round etc. SAS made a good point too we have 4 former GM's working under 1 roof including Donnie Walsh and they should come up with a creative package to get the deal done. I also find it funny that Lebron left home and got criticized now Melo wants to come home and hes getting criticized.

The only thing that can derail this is if doesn't have the balls to stick by his conviction and decide that money is more important than going where he wants to go. Basically if he's willing to blink first and have his bluff be called.

thats the thing tho, carmelo is about all bout the $$$...SAS has talked about this b4 on his show, also there is a reason he didnt take the short extension last time like lbj

[Esq-4]

To the poster who said something about 'Buike and Douglas for Mayo...is that something that came out in a rumor? Or is that just something you made up that works in the trade checker?

Because I think that would be a great trade. We need to find a real back up PG anyway and I'm not so sure we'll get to see 'Buike in a NYK jersey anyway.

Too bad Spanish Chocolate didn't work out as a back up pg.

Back to Melo, no matter what happens, I think we can all agree that nothing will happen until at least after the all star break at this point. But its tough we have 3 days off right now to speculate...then the entire all star break....then possibly until the 24th.

This IMO is nothing like LBJ. We never had a chance to trade for him. Less teams actually have the cap to sway him, especially in an attractive market (yes I know under the current CBA anyone can s & t). Melo has more of a connection to NY and NYK, as self professed by him. Similar yes, the same no.

I think everyone acknowledges it will be more than just WC, AR, expirings. I think it def won't be that PLUS Mozgov, Gallo and Fields. But chances are we can say good bye to one of them. If only Walker and TD were enough. And how come you never hear interest for Williams, he has been playing well too. For me AR isn't just a piece going out for a pick...I can't believe DEN wouldn't value him over the pick to be honest.

What I don't get is how we also still make a play for Nash? I mean, what is PHX looking for for him?

[thisiskoz]

As much as it sucks to keep waiting for yet another FA class, that's pretty much our only option unless we want to lock ourselves into mediocrity, or we trade Amar'e and press the RESET button again.

Your attitude is like the poker player who gets burned on a bad river beat, and then goes on to play really bad hands cause he's too pissed off to think clearly. If we miss out on Melo, we need to keep our flexibility for 2012, period.

Yea I know, When we missed out on Lebron i really didn't care that much but Melo wants to be here, hes from here and he has a team/winning attitude, hes not trying to sell his brand like LBJ, I really hope we get him at all costs. Just wanna witness some winning basketball again like in the 90's.

That's just the thing: If we overpay for Melo, you may not witness winning basketball. Giving up a lot for Melo just to say we have Amar'e and Melo ... that's an MSG sequel to The Marbury Era in my honest opinion.

this is spot on... this franchise cannot marbury itself again... and giving in too much to the demands of the nuggets will do exactly that... we cannot again both trade away our young talent and take back undesirable contracts simply because we want our guy... this is what separates the isiahs from the donnies...

the marbury trade in and of itself did not screw this franchise... but rather it helped set the stage for our future moves... as we left ourselves few assets to use moving forward... the only moves we could make were for players on the outs with their teams... ones where the only things we had to offer... expiring contracts and future draft picks... could get the job done... add in a major injury to houston... and we were screwed...

i understand that its hard to walk away from the table without the thing you covet... but sometimes thats the move you have to make in order to preserve the flexibility that is required to succeed in this league... if we were at the point where us + melo = championship... itd be a different story... but were not... and this is a fact that some really need to understand...

[kane2021]

Kane, good theory (minus my one question). Minny does provide Walsh a very real trading partner who can allow the Knicks to steal Melo without compensating Denver at all.

Like I said, its nothing major. Just seems that its a 2 headed coin. It can provide Denver with savings now. Or it could provide denver with nothing later.

[K_ick_God]

thats the thing tho, carmelo is about all bout the $$$...SAS has talked about this b4 on his show, also there is a reason he didnt take the short extension last time like lbj

Can a man change his mind? Melo has actually mentioned that he's made enough money already, and that's why he'd like to make winning his first priority. That means his previous "all about money" decision may allow him to be less about money now.

Not saying he won't cave but your "he's all about money" thing may prove to be old/incomplete information.

[BLACKFEET 2010]

I came up with a theory in thinking this over last night. Thought I would throw it out there.

For awhile now I have felt that the nuggets would not trade anthony. And as the deadline approaches it makes even less sense to make a deal. Denver is stuck with a gutted playoff team. And being they want picks so bad, it hurts their draft position. Also hurts in the sense, that without their franchise player interest would be lost mid season in the team.

For the knicks, we lose assets. But more so, we have to reconstruct the offense with what ever is left. Thats a adjustment period. And the dead line marks nearly the 3/4 mark of the season. Meaning we are just that much closer to waiting for the summer and getting a fresh start.

The only benefit I see to the nuggets keeping Antony for the season is a farewell playoff run. The only benefit I see for the nuggets dragging their feet is it blocks the knicks from making other moves. Not just to improve the team, but more importantly opening up the additional cap space we need to sign anthony to a max deal.

It puts us in a position where we would have to make another last minute cap cutting deal. Like last season. The unknown of the off season also means we are not really sure what the cap will look like. And we need a minimum of 20 million to max Anthony out, and cover our draft pick. We would need to deal Ronny And Randolph for a expiring deal. Weakening our team and costing us further assets possibility. Including loosing chandler for nothing.

If the nuggets can drag this out to the final minutes, and Walsh, who has expressed regret in last season cap cutting move, it insures that denver and the knicks have to negotiate a s/t. Meaning they dont get nothing after all. Chandler has expressed that he does not want to go to denver. But once the writing is on the wall, priorities change and money becomes the only factor. None the less, the knicks will need to find 6 million in salary to deal to denver. EVEN if, Wilson decides to sign a deal with denver. That could be as simple and Ronny and AR. Or it could be gallo and AR.

Not that I think Walsh would deal gallo in a s/t. Its just a example of how these hard negotiation can still carry over to the off season. With the tide shifting to denvers favor.

But that is where the wolves come into play.

The wolves have expressed interest in AR. And have expressed interest in being a 3rd team. But more so than that, they have the cap space to absorb salary without having to send back anything but a TPE. That we can renounce and open up the cap space we need.

Just like they did with Miami when they took beasly.

The wolves could take both Ronny and AR in the off season for nothing but a 2nd. Maybe even get a freshly signed chandler if both sides see fit. (wilson and minny)

Then denver really gets nothing. And minny again, gets young assets for free.

Its really just a minor point. Nothing major. But my theory is Walsh has turned to his buddy in minny to put pressure on denver and eliminate the thought that they have a chance to continue to squeeze us in the off season. And really lose their franchise player for nothing. While they watch minny get the benefits, for nothing. Again.

+1
I feel that this is when Donnie gets on the bat-phone and calls in his trump card. Wark, Kahn, Larry Bird, etc., these are guys Walsh has helped bring up in the NBA. It;\'s about time his black book start paying some real dividends. Minnie is a willing participant. Like you said, they can luck out again and absorb AR and Turiaf this summer. We open up the necessary space and sign Melo (CBA permitting) outright. This is maddening.

[Esq-4]

MIN better help us. LOL.

First they move up in the draft and take 2 pgs in a row...although a pg was around if we wanted him

Then they take on Beasley to help MIA. Now I can't blame them for that one since they got a talented young player for virtually nothing.

I'm just looking for reasons for another to help facilitate this thing.

Good point though about the cap space. I keep saying I think AR is worth more than just the 1st and whatever player they add (Brewer?), but I forget the TPE, which is a key to this thing in some ways.

[moocow007]

Yea, I have 100% more confidence in this than the Lebron situation because hes from here, he wants to be here, his wife and kid live here year round etc. SAS made a good point too we have 4 former GM's working under 1 roof including Donnie Walsh and they should come up with a creative package to get the deal done. I also find it funny that Lebron left home and got criticized now Melo wants to come home and hes getting criticized.

The only thing that can derail this is if doesn't have the balls to stick by his conviction and decide that money is more important than going where he wants to go. Basically if he's willing to blink first and have his bluff be called.

thats the thing tho, carmelo is about all bout the $$$...SAS has talked about this b4 on his show, also there is a reason he didnt take the short extension last time like lbj

Possibly. If true then the Knicks need to trade for him cause like Broussard and SAS and the rest have said, a talent like Melo doesn't pop up every day. But I think in the end the Nuggets will trade him and it will be for a package that is more than what we'd wish it were but less than what we fear it will be.

[NYman15]

Kane, good theory (minus my one question). Minny does provide Walsh a very real trading partner who can allow the Knicks to steal Melo without compensating Denver at all.

Agreed I think it's a great theory but I think Minny is being overlooked in this whole thing we all know Kahn and Walsh are good friends but i think they are the perfect trade partners for us with or without melo they can get us a 1st round pick or a young pg in telfair or flynn, who they might be trading, and they can take on money without giving it out since they are under the cap they i think they are being overlooked and how important they can be to get this deal done.

[Context]

Denver fans are going to be mad either way. And if you think holding onto him makes that much of difference- it doesn't. I posted some comments from fans before and plenty of them have issues with Melo and don't believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

Again, If I'm an owner and ONE player from one of my 5-6 teams has SHOWN me for 8 months that he's not signing my extension. Not to mention, another teams extension that was brought to the table... I am not about to throw away 22.3 million and pre-deadline assets on a hope. Unless, Minny drops out and the Kings don't get involved (ie: absorbing Curry's contract) I CAN NOT see Denver keeping him for the remainder of the season.

All you need is a press conference explaining that Melo was going to op-out and become a free agent. Explain the particulars of the deal and how it would benefit the team -etc and the fans will get over it...

Again, if you're worried about the casual fan who won't support the Nuggets once Melo is gone- 10 games of support ain't worth 22.3, and the additional assets that you will receive- when you compare it to a TPE and a 2nd round pick. Not to mention, if you want to move some more contracts on your roster as well... Come on guys- stop being paranoid and make a prediction that you believe in...

Melo deal gets announced on the 21st...

[NYGiants4Natic]

Why do some of you continue to talk about our young talent. What talent?

Gallo is not going to be a star and neither is Chandler. Those are players that come and go with ease in this league.

We are talking about pairing 2 of the top 15 players in the game together. I would take that and the rest of the roster can be some of you delusional fans who think of this young talent as something we will beat Miami or Boston or Lakers with.

This is not football where you build through young average talent. You win in this league by having inpact players.

If we lose out on Melo because we wanted to keep Gallo or Moz, then we will be garbage and 8th seed for the next 7 years.

Give me a damm break.

[Jay10]

My Prediction is Denver wont trade him. There going to roll the dice and keep him, then loose him in the summer to Us. Bunch of dumb GM's.

if this happen, ujiri wouldn't have learned anything from his time in toronto.

[NYKat]

How does building around Amare/Felton/Melo equate to mediocrity any more than not doing anything right now?

Your pre-supposing that if we acquire Melo at the expense of a couple of wing players, we won't be able to get add any other players and thus be mediocre, that's quite a stretch.

If we keep flexibility and don't add another consistent offensive weapon, then we remain what we are right now the definition of Mediocre...and we have wait for the next FA and do this all over again.

You can play the flexibilty card forever, at some point you gotta commit to a core of players to build around don't you?

Not doing anything right now says nothing about our future, it leaves it open ended. We can commit salary or we can maintain flexibility. We have two options which can be decided upon once we get there.

Committing now to Melo takes away our cheap assets, our depth. These are valuable pieces either to the team itself or towards trading for another player.

I'm not saying that by trading these guys for Melo we won't get any players. I never said that. What I'm saying is that the level of players we can get is drastically diminished by gutting our roster right now for Melo. If risk it and wait, we would be able to maintain our assets while getting Melo. Then those assets can be flipped for another very good player, or developed.

What I am certain of is that these players we're giving up are better then the vet min guys you are going to find on the market. By giving these people up now, we would certainly be downgrading with whoever we are going to sign to fill the void left by their departure.

Waiting not only allows us to retain assets that can be used for another player or to round out our team with players and maintain our level of depth, but it also allows us other options, which my not be Carmelo.

We wait because it gives us more options. Acting now creates mediocrity as it hinders our ability to get more talent in the long run. It is short term thinking rather than long term thinking. Carmelo is a great talent, but sacrificing long term options to get him now seems rather short sighted. He doesn't make us contenders, so why toss aside assets when we can potentially get him and continue to build. Getting Carmelo as it now stands severely limits our ability to make future moves, and that is where the major problem lies, alongside the problem of depth.

You make a cogent argument for keeping flexibility, but understand there are no players of Melo's abilities coming down the pike, now or 2012 to compete in an era of mega-teams in terms of star talent, we need another consistent offensive weapon, this is the closest we've come in years to having a superstar talent WANT to come here, let alone being able to acquire said talent.

The risk is not in giving up inconsistent assets, like Chandler/Gallo/Fields the risk is in losing out on a once in a generation scorer like Melo to pair with an elite PF like Amare and an above average PG in Felton.

[cgmw]

I too get the feeling that Denver is just going to keep him and try to call his bluff. But Melo may become even more agitated and determined to leave via free agency.

Ah Ha! Welcome to the Darkside, KG. We argued about this ad-nauseum last month. Now I see your Schwartz is finally as big as mine.

We didn't argue about this.

We argued about whether new Max contracts will be much lower than the existing Max contracts. I maintain that the new Maxes will definitely be very close to the existing Maxes.

But whether Denver will try to get Melo to cave, and whether he will in fact cave, is a separate matter.

In the end, if he does cave, he will look bad because new Maxes will not be too different from old Maxes unless old Maxes are also rolled back. But that doesn't say anything about what Denver may do or what Melo may do.

People make bad decisions.

Not to go too far afield, but my recollection was that I said Denver was likely to hold on to Melo for a variety of reasons. You disagreed because you thought those reasons were unlikely. The main reason we disagreed on was the likelihood of the NBA rolling back existing contracts, which I said would never happen. I could continue for 20 more pages arguing with you on that sub-plot, but the overall picture remains the same -- Denver has good reason just to hold on to Melo past the deadline.

I hope they don't, but they have plenty of motivation to give it a shot.

[kane2021]

Its just a way to pull the rug out from under denver. Its a way to tell them its now or never. Because Walsh is old school. Old school rules apply. I wont rip you off today. But give me the cold shoulder and you get **** tomorrow.

Im positive Walsh would rather gift Kahn than than continue to negotiate with these clowns in the summer. And im positive Kahn would be more than happy to take on short term salary from us (Ronny) if it means they get a young player (AR). And even Wilson Chandler.