The Next Official All things Frank Ntilikina Thread

[thebuzzardman]

he's gonna be a 3 & d player here so hitting the 3s is the most important thing. running point is not in his future as a knick.

His "future" on the Knicks ended somewhere around mid season last year. Or sooner. C'mon.

Knick's roster goes like 14 players deep of somewhat average players. Would be 15 if Pills didn't decide to be humanitarians to Bullock. He'll be lucky to play at all. Actually, it would take a catastrophic series of injuries for him to play 10 mpg.

Frank is ahead of Bullock on the depth chart. That's it.

even for you you're negative lately...you're right though

I'm just acknowledging him as part of the substandard youth that will lead the Knicks to 30 wins. Actually, he won't really be part of the losses, since he won't play.

The Knicks will "achieve" those 30 wins based on lackluster talent at guard/wing, since the starters are below average and other than Trier, the backups are below average. Trier would be below average as a starter.

Ok, Portis is below average as a big, so he gets some blame. But mostly, it's the guards and wings.

[Dantares]

8 points in only 13 minutes is progress

[moocow007]

Here's the thing. Frank is a throwback player to the days when people cared about defense and not just offense. Bruce Bowen NEVER averaged over 10 points a game in ANY season but he's considered as a big reason why the Spurs were so good. With that said, people waiting and/or hoping Frank becomes a 12-14 ppg guy may never see that. Is that a bad thing?? Ask the Spurs... It's up to the Knicks organization to foster a roster that can utilize each guy's skill-set to the fullest. I like Fiz and am a huge supporter but like Horn, he didn't do Frank any favors the way he asked him to play.

All this crazy talk about Frank being out of the league in a couple of years is just that - CRAZY. Our problem is that we don't have a roster capable of bringing out Frank's talents - which is defense & unselfishness.

Some people's expectation is the problem and not necessarily Frank. He is who he is and that probably won't change.

Frank isn't anywhere near Bowen level on defense...or even offense...is the problem. And Bowen was about as aggressive and dirty a player as you can get (which was a huge part of why he was considered such a great defender). Frank hasn't shown anything of the sort from a personality standpoint.

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[KNIXFAN_83]

I’ve supported Frank since day one and i just don’t see him getting minutes unless there are major injuries. (God forbid)

[moocow007]

Frank’s passing is a little overrated too. He is good in the sense that he often makes the right pass but he doesn’t have great vision and his passing is somewhat predictable/robotic also.

His vision is pretty good and his passing is "predictable" in that he usually makes the right pass, as you said.

Let me be more specific. He doesn’t make that pass where he’s ahead of the defense and you go wow he saw the play in his head before it happened.

I agree.

He makes the passes that the play calls for but he doesn't appear to have great passing instincts when there is no called play or a play breaks down.

Works better overseas since they tend to be more play calling and structured play. In the NBA? Not as much.

From my POV this distinction is noticeable in many parts if his game... especially on the offensive end. He just does not seem to have great natural feel for the game. He's noticeably mechanical at times.

On a team where there's a lot more dependency on individual players making things happen (i.e. bad teams) he struggles mightily cause there's no "script" he can follow to cover his lack of natural feel and instincts.

Maybe on a better team where the system and roles are established he can find a niche but I just don't see it here.

Now before anyone takes this as "it's the Knicks, not him"...no, it's him too. He is a limited player. Can he get better? Who knows. But right now offensively without question he's extremely weak from a modern NBA perspective. Even on a team like the Spurs I can't see him getting any time if he's a zero on offense. The Spurs role players can't be dead weight offensively no matter how some might think they can be. Same with the Raptors role players. And those are your main "defense wins" examples in the offensive centric NBA nowadays right?

This is not about defending or attacking Frank. It's about reality. Frank has to show he can do something on offense in order to have a future in the NBA. Even as a role player. Him being a nice kid and showing hes trying to play the right way don't mean **** if he can't do a thing offensively.

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[BBALLER4FR]

His vision is pretty good and his passing is "predictable" in that he usually makes the right pass, as you said.

Let me be more specific. He doesn’t make that pass where he’s ahead of the defense and you go wow he saw the play in his head before it happened.

I agree.

He makes the passes that the play calls for but he doesn't appear to have great passing instincts when there is no called play or a play breaks down.

Works better overseas since they tend to be more play calling and structured play. In the NBA? Not as much.

From my POV this distinction is noticeable in many parts if his game... especially on the offensive end. He just does not seem to have great natural feel for the game. He's noticeably mechanical at times.

On a team where there's a lot more dependency on individual players making things happen (i.e. bad teams) he struggles mightily cause there's no "script" he can follow to cover his lack of natural feel and instincts.

Maybe on a better team where the system and roles are established he can find a niche but I just don't see it here.

Now before anyone takes this as "it's the Knicks, not him"...no, it's him too. He is a limited player. Can he get better? Who knows. But right now offensively without question he's extremely weak from a modern NBA perspective. Even on a team like the Spurs I can't see him getting any time if he's a zero on offense. The Spurs role players can't be dead weight offensively no matter how some might think you can be. Same with the Raptors role players.



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Perfectly said. Also his defense is not enough to mask his offense while his demeanor and progression give me no confidence he becomes anything more than what he currently is.

[DOT]

I just think people are looking at this the wrong way

He's not a PG. Maybe, if you have like James Harden, he could be, but we don't. So we should stop thinking of him as a PG

We should groom him to be Nic Batum. Is that a little disappointing, yeah, but if he can get to that level offensively, and DSJ/RJ/Knox all reach their ceilings, we don't really need much more than that. We have two ball handlers and creators in DSJ and RJ, and Knox is, Knox, so you don't need Frank to be a PG, just someone who makes the right passes, plays defense, and hits 3s. And of the three, the only thing he doesn't do right now is hit 3s (cause his passing is good for a wing)

With that being said, he's absolutely replaceable. In theoretical terms for a lineup with DSJ/RJ/Knox/Mitch, he would have a higher ceiling than say, Dot, cause he's a better playmaker, but functionally, there's not much difference. Plus, we probably end up picking high again this year, in a draft loaded with good wings, so unless he really shows out, I don't see a need to keep him

[moocow007]

Let me be more specific. He doesn’t make that pass where he’s ahead of the defense and you go wow he saw the play in his head before it happened.

I agree.

He makes the passes that the play calls for but he doesn't appear to have great passing instincts when there is no called play or a play breaks down.

Works better overseas since they tend to be more play calling and structured play. In the NBA? Not as much.

From my POV this distinction is noticeable in many parts if his game... especially on the offensive end. He just does not seem to have great natural feel for the game. He's noticeably mechanical at times.

On a team where there's a lot more dependency on individual players making things happen (i.e. bad teams) he struggles mightily cause there's no "script" he can follow to cover his lack of natural feel and instincts.

Maybe on a better team where the system and roles are established he can find a niche but I just don't see it here.

Now before anyone takes this as "it's the Knicks, not him"...no, it's him too. He is a limited player. Can he get better? Who knows. But right now offensively without question he's extremely weak from a modern NBA perspective. Even on a team like the Spurs I can't see him getting any time if he's a zero on offense. The Spurs role players can't be dead weight offensively no matter how some might think you can be. Same with the Raptors role players.



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Perfectly said. Also his defense is not enough to mask his offense while his demeanor and progression give me no confidence he becomes anything more than what he currently is.

Yeah.

I'd almost rather see him show some sign of urgency by by being more aggressive on offense even if it looks ugly or leads to turnovers.

Kevin Knox is a good example. Another young, long, rangy, raw player. He struggled early last season (looked awful) but got better by the end of the season. How? By not going into a shell and waiting but by being more aggressive and not settling. And the Knicks allowed him to do that. I doubt it was the Knicks that told Frank to not do that. That's probably why Frank ended in the doghouse. I can see Fiz screaming in his head "Shoot! Shoot! Attack! Oh come on Frank!"

Frank has had the perfect stage for it by playing on God awful teams where it was clear winning wasn't what it was about. We're not talking about competing teams here where you can't do that and wouldn't be justified in doing that.

You can't get better at something without stretching it out in games. And for whatever reason he just isn't willing or able to do that. It's either mental or lack of skill imo. He has to see that his NBA future is in jeopardy if he can't improve offensively.

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[mpharris36]

I just think people are looking at this the wrong way

He's not a PG. Maybe, if you have like James Harden, he could be, but we don't. So we should stop thinking of him as a PG

We should groom him to be Nic Batum. Is that a little disappointing, yeah, but if he can get to that level offensively, and DSJ/RJ/Knox all reach their ceilings, we don't really need much more than that. We have two ball handlers and creators in DSJ and RJ, and Knox is, Knox, so you don't need Frank to be a PG, just someone who makes the right passes, plays defense, and hits 3s. And of the three, the only thing he doesn't do right now is hit 3s (cause his passing is good for a wing)

With that being said, he's absolutely replaceable. In theoretical terms for a lineup with DSJ/RJ/Knox/Mitch, he would have a higher ceiling than say, Dot, cause he's a better playmaker, but functionally, there's not much difference. Plus, we probably end up picking high again this year, in a draft loaded with good wings, so unless he really shows out, I don't see a need to keep him

he doesn't need to be groomed as a ball dominant pg. I don't think anyone thinks or believes he should be used like CP3. However when you draft and invest so much in RJ. You want to put guys around him that make sense. Frank out of any of the other guards seems to make the most sense next to RJ long term allowing him more on ball opportunities.

[thebuzzardman]

I just think people are looking at this the wrong way

He's not a PG. Maybe, if you have like James Harden, he could be, but we don't. So we should stop thinking of him as a PG

We should groom him to be Nic Batum. Is that a little disappointing, yeah, but if he can get to that level offensively, and DSJ/RJ/Knox all reach their ceilings, we don't really need much more than that. We have two ball handlers and creators in DSJ and RJ, and Knox is, Knox, so you don't need Frank to be a PG, just someone who makes the right passes, plays defense, and hits 3s. And of the three, the only thing he doesn't do right now is hit 3s (cause his passing is good for a wing)

With that being said, he's absolutely replaceable. In theoretical terms for a lineup with DSJ/RJ/Knox/Mitch, he would have a higher ceiling than say, Dot, cause he's a better playmaker, but functionally, there's not much difference. Plus, we probably end up picking high again this year, in a draft loaded with good wings, so unless he really shows out, I don't see a need to keep him

he doesn't need to be groomed as a ball dominant pg. I don't think anyone thinks or believes he should be used like CP3. However when you draft and invest so much in RJ. You want to put guys around him that make sense. Frank out of any of the other guards seems to make the most sense next to RJ long term allowing him more on ball opportunities.

Two guys who can't shoot together? Ugh.

[MaseInYourFace]

I could see that. But I could also envision a scenario where they go with Kadeem Allen and deploy RJ to play some minutes at PG. Based on what we've seen of Fizdale I don't think Frank's job is safe even as 3rd string PG. He will need to show up to camp and start turning some heads with improvement, I also think he will get some solid minutes in preseason to show them something.

bro kadeem is trash. He's soon to be 27 playing in summer league this year.

I agree. It's Fizdale.

It’s both but frank isn’t exactly making a compelling case for PG minutes.

[DOT]

I just think people are looking at this the wrong way

He's not a PG. Maybe, if you have like James Harden, he could be, but we don't. So we should stop thinking of him as a PG

We should groom him to be Nic Batum. Is that a little disappointing, yeah, but if he can get to that level offensively, and DSJ/RJ/Knox all reach their ceilings, we don't really need much more than that. We have two ball handlers and creators in DSJ and RJ, and Knox is, Knox, so you don't need Frank to be a PG, just someone who makes the right passes, plays defense, and hits 3s. And of the three, the only thing he doesn't do right now is hit 3s (cause his passing is good for a wing)

With that being said, he's absolutely replaceable. In theoretical terms for a lineup with DSJ/RJ/Knox/Mitch, he would have a higher ceiling than say, Dot, cause he's a better playmaker, but functionally, there's not much difference. Plus, we probably end up picking high again this year, in a draft loaded with good wings, so unless he really shows out, I don't see a need to keep him

he doesn't need to be groomed as a ball dominant pg. I don't think anyone thinks or believes he should be used like CP3. However when you draft and invest so much in RJ. You want to put guys around him that make sense. Frank out of any of the other guards seems to make the most sense next to RJ long term allowing him more on ball opportunities.

I mean, if you're gonna do that, then that kinda makes RJ the de facto PG, and Frank the SG, in which case Dot would make more sense because he's a better shooter

RJ I don't think will be good enough of a playmaker to have Frank as his PG, cause you still need another ball handler with them, which is why I like the idea of a DSJ/Frank/RJ lineup, cause DSJ is a lot better of a PG than people give him credit for. He's definitely ball dominant, but he isn't a ball hog

My point was more to the people that complain about him not being super aggressive all the time, cause if you have 3 guys who can score with the ball in their hands, you don't really need Frank to be aggressive because odds are, he'd be the worst of them and taking more shots takes shots away from your best players. There's a reason why the Clippers start guys like Shamet, Bradley, and Beverley instead of Lou Will, cause of balance

But it's all contingent on him getting his shot consistent

[Juco24]

Here's the thing. Frank is a throwback player to the days when people cared about defense and not just offense. Bruce Bowen NEVER averaged over 10 points a game in ANY season but he's considered as a big reason why the Spurs were so good. With that said, people waiting and/or hoping Frank becomes a 12-14 ppg guy may never see that. Is that a bad thing?? Ask the Spurs... It's up to the Knicks organization to foster a roster that can utilize each guy's skill-set to the fullest. I like Fiz and am a huge supporter but like Horn, he didn't do Frank any favors the way he asked him to play.

All this crazy talk about Frank being out of the league in a couple of years is just that - CRAZY. Our problem is that we don't have a roster capable of bringing out Frank's talents - which is defense & unselfishness.

Some people's expectation is the problem and not necessarily Frank. He is who he is and that probably won't change.

Frank isn't anywhere near Bowen level on defense...or even offense...is the problem. And Bowen was about as aggressive and dirty a player as you can get (which was a huge part of why he was considered such a great defender). Frank hasn't shown anything of the sort from a personality standpoint.

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I just to be respectfully clear - Since my post was quoted... are you implying that's what I was saying? Because it wasn't at all. By mentioning Bowen I was stating that many place such a high regard to offense that they forget defense

[mpharris36]

I just think people are looking at this the wrong way

He's not a PG. Maybe, if you have like James Harden, he could be, but we don't. So we should stop thinking of him as a PG

We should groom him to be Nic Batum. Is that a little disappointing, yeah, but if he can get to that level offensively, and DSJ/RJ/Knox all reach their ceilings, we don't really need much more than that. We have two ball handlers and creators in DSJ and RJ, and Knox is, Knox, so you don't need Frank to be a PG, just someone who makes the right passes, plays defense, and hits 3s. And of the three, the only thing he doesn't do right now is hit 3s (cause his passing is good for a wing)

With that being said, he's absolutely replaceable. In theoretical terms for a lineup with DSJ/RJ/Knox/Mitch, he would have a higher ceiling than say, Dot, cause he's a better playmaker, but functionally, there's not much difference. Plus, we probably end up picking high again this year, in a draft loaded with good wings, so unless he really shows out, I don't see a need to keep him

he doesn't need to be groomed as a ball dominant pg. I don't think anyone thinks or believes he should be used like CP3. However when you draft and invest so much in RJ. You want to put guys around him that make sense. Frank out of any of the other guards seems to make the most sense next to RJ long term allowing him more on ball opportunities.

I mean, if you're gonna do that, then that kinda makes RJ the de facto PG, and Frank the SG, in which case Dot would make more sense because he's a better shooter

RJ I don't think will be good enough of a playmaker to have Frank as his PG, cause you still need another ball handler with them, which is why I like the idea of a DSJ/Frank/RJ lineup, cause DSJ is a lot better of a PG than people give him credit for. He's definitely ball dominant, but he isn't a ball hog

My point was more to the people that complain about him not being super aggressive all the time, cause if you have 3 guys who can score with the ball in their hands, you don't really need Frank to be aggressive because odds are, he'd be the worst of them and taking more shots takes shots away from your best players. There's a reason why the Clippers start guys like Shamet, Bradley, and Beverley instead of Lou Will, cause of balance

But it's all contingent on him getting his shot consistent

not really, I do want or expect RJ to be able to defend ones. Build your team around Frank/Mitch defense. Then get put a shooter (hopefully knox) around RJ and Randle who will be your top 2 options on offense.

Thats how I would do it.

[Kampuchea]

I just think people are looking at this the wrong way

He's not a PG. Maybe, if you have like James Harden, he could be, but we don't. So we should stop thinking of him as a PG

We should groom him to be Nic Batum. Is that a little disappointing, yeah, but if he can get to that level offensively, and DSJ/RJ/Knox all reach their ceilings, we don't really need much more than that. We have two ball handlers and creators in DSJ and RJ, and Knox is, Knox, so you don't need Frank to be a PG, just someone who makes the right passes, plays defense, and hits 3s. And of the three, the only thing he doesn't do right now is hit 3s (cause his passing is good for a wing)

With that being said, he's absolutely replaceable. In theoretical terms for a lineup with DSJ/RJ/Knox/Mitch, he would have a higher ceiling than say, Dot, cause he's a better playmaker, but functionally, there's not much difference. Plus, we probably end up picking high again this year, in a draft loaded with good wings, so unless he really shows out, I don't see a need to keep him

he doesn't need to be groomed as a ball dominant pg. I don't think anyone thinks or believes he should be used like CP3. However when you draft and invest so much in RJ. You want to put guys around him that make sense. Frank out of any of the other guards seems to make the most sense next to RJ long term allowing him more on ball opportunities.

Frank makes no sense next to RJ. Would result in terrible spacing and Franks defender cheating in, resulting in problems for RJ when driving.

Right now Franks makes sense next to nobody with his offensive limitations.

[mpharris36]

I just think people are looking at this the wrong way

He's not a PG. Maybe, if you have like James Harden, he could be, but we don't. So we should stop thinking of him as a PG

We should groom him to be Nic Batum. Is that a little disappointing, yeah, but if he can get to that level offensively, and DSJ/RJ/Knox all reach their ceilings, we don't really need much more than that. We have two ball handlers and creators in DSJ and RJ, and Knox is, Knox, so you don't need Frank to be a PG, just someone who makes the right passes, plays defense, and hits 3s. And of the three, the only thing he doesn't do right now is hit 3s (cause his passing is good for a wing)

With that being said, he's absolutely replaceable. In theoretical terms for a lineup with DSJ/RJ/Knox/Mitch, he would have a higher ceiling than say, Dot, cause he's a better playmaker, but functionally, there's not much difference. Plus, we probably end up picking high again this year, in a draft loaded with good wings, so unless he really shows out, I don't see a need to keep him

he doesn't need to be groomed as a ball dominant pg. I don't think anyone thinks or believes he should be used like CP3. However when you draft and invest so much in RJ. You want to put guys around him that make sense. Frank out of any of the other guards seems to make the most sense next to RJ long term allowing him more on ball opportunities.

Frank makes no sense next to RJ. Would result in terrible spacing and Franks defender cheating in, resulting in problems for RJ when driving.

Right now Franks makes sense next to nobody with his offensive limitations.

if your asking me who I believe on the roster has the best chance to hit an open 3 out of DSJ, Payton, and Frank. I still believe that to be Frank off pure shooting mechanics. If he could simply get consistency out of it because has had months of good shooting brought down by a putrid month.

But hey I know you despise him as a player so not sure where we can have a solid discussion on it.

[Kampuchea]

he doesn't need to be groomed as a ball dominant pg. I don't think anyone thinks or believes he should be used like CP3. However when you draft and invest so much in RJ. You want to put guys around him that make sense. Frank out of any of the other guards seems to make the most sense next to RJ long term allowing him more on ball opportunities.

Frank makes no sense next to RJ. Would result in terrible spacing and Franks defender cheating in, resulting in problems for RJ when driving.

Right now Franks makes sense next to nobody with his offensive limitations.

if your asking me who I believe on the roster has the best chance to hit an open 3 out of DSJ, Payton, and Frank. I still believe that to be Frank off pure shooting mechanics. If he could simply get consistency out of it because has had months of good shooting brought down by a putrid month.

But hey I know you despise him as a player so not sure where we can have a solid discussion on it.

It’s a fabrication to say I despise Frank, legit think you have me confused with someone else.

I don’t believe Frank will make it but I grew up on Oak, Mase and Starks so I’m hungry for him to prove me wrong and be our stopper out there.

I also don’t believe in Payton long term, and DSJ I’m a little more hopeful in his talent but hate the fit with RJ as well.

Dotson is best fit for RJ right now

[mpharris36]

Frank makes no sense next to RJ. Would result in terrible spacing and Franks defender cheating in, resulting in problems for RJ when driving.

Right now Franks makes sense next to nobody with his offensive limitations.

if your asking me who I believe on the roster has the best chance to hit an open 3 out of DSJ, Payton, and Frank. I still believe that to be Frank off pure shooting mechanics. If he could simply get consistency out of it because has had months of good shooting brought down by a putrid month.

But hey I know you despise him as a player so not sure where we can have a solid discussion on it.

It’s a fabrication to say I despise Frank, legit think you have me confused with someone else.

I don’t believe Frank will make it but I grew up on Oak, Mase and Starks so I’m hungry for him to prove me wrong and be our stopper out there.

I also don’t believe in Payton long term, and DSJ I’m a little more hopeful in his talent but hate the fit with RJ as well.

Dotson is best fit for RJ right now

whos guarding the PG?

[Kampuchea]

if your asking me who I believe on the roster has the best chance to hit an open 3 out of DSJ, Payton, and Frank. I still believe that to be Frank off pure shooting mechanics. If he could simply get consistency out of it because has had months of good shooting brought down by a putrid month.

But hey I know you despise him as a player so not sure where we can have a solid discussion on it.

It’s a fabrication to say I despise Frank, legit think you have me confused with someone else.

I don’t believe Frank will make it but I grew up on Oak, Mase and Starks so I’m hungry for him to prove me wrong and be our stopper out there.

I also don’t believe in Payton long term, and DSJ I’m a little more hopeful in his talent but hate the fit with RJ as well.

Dotson is best fit for RJ right now

whos guarding the PG?

Dotson if we have a weak defender at PG, or any player that is not a net negative due to poor offense.

[MadGrinch]

Frank should be getting groomed to be a 3 and D point guard like Patrick Beverly or kirk hinrich , a guy who can run a play or 2 ,defend like crazy and hit an open shot .

a full fledged point guard will be almost worthless alongside RJ if they need the ball to be effective because the hope is that RJ will dominate the ball in a year or so like other star ballhandling wings/guards add to that Barret is not exactly considered much of a shooter or off the ball weapon he is somewhat useless when he doesn't have the ball in his hands .

the people here who are saying frank is at best a 12th man are forgetting that as a team gets better role playing becomes more important than talent , and that teams will often play bad fitting teammates together because they need development time on the court .

its really a matter of whom develops faster and how they develop , if smith and barrett develop into on ball terrors but cant shoot they wont play much together instead they'll be paired with shooters to give them room to be more effective but if they limit each other their time together will be short . and if they don't think they will become a strong tandem they will choose between them.

players like bullock and Dotson are becoming more commonplace , easily replaceable.