Around the NBA part 2

[GettinitDone]

Free as in the dude didn't have a job and we signed him... Do you know how rare his situation is? Find me a guy that got the kind of pay raise he's gotten and that all things considered is giving a nice return on that pay raise? All those guys you're mentioning have had draft picks wasted on them. The mere fact that the guy is a starting PG on a team in playoff position in an extremely tough conference is enough to admit... yeah.. the guy's pretty good.

fair enough, and i never mentioned he was a "bad" player

but for you to use the term "wasted" for the players i mentioned is quit ridiculous. Whether u want to believe the rockets are in playoff contention because of Lin you can do that and I want debate u.

But Harden, Parsons, and Asik are much more of the reasons...especially harden, he has turned a team that would have been a 50-60 loss team to a possible 6-8 seed.

It proves you're reading stats to gauge Lin as a player, and never really watch Rox games. Compare the team's offense when he's on floor and when he's not, besides the stats that appear on boxscore (points, assists), Lin's style of play is giving player with the ball space to operate, and their spacing when he's on the floor and off is incredibly stark. They pass fluidly when he's on the floor.

Asik has been incredible rebounder, Harden has been unstoppable, Delfino/ Toney/ even PPat and Morris have been lights out, all of them shoot mostly uncontested shots and Lin engineers the spacing and player movement. Watch Lin when he does not have the ball, you'll see a player who is totally aware of spacing, player movement, when to demand/receive ball, when to give ball and give space to his teammate to do his thing.

Just a note, since his 31 pts game against us, Parsons has fallen to earth, his shooting percentage has been bad, and has not been the 18ppg all-around scoring threat he was earlier in November.

[Bill Bradley]

Assuming Harden wasn't there how can u honestly say they would have a similar record?

Because they wouldn't have had the feeling out period with Lin and harden. It would have been more like Linsanity with Kevin Martin having a more clearly defined pure shooter role.

[Capn'O]

Personally I think the Knicks hot start was fools gold. They had a lot to prove with the whole Lin saga and came out motivated and then reverted to who they really were, and will continue to do so. Knicks would be far better if guys like Melo and JR could ditch their egos and play team ball with Lin. But they feel more comfortable with Felton and that has helped team chemistry but hurt overall talent level and team play. Just my opinion.

I also tend to think that we'd be better with Lin but you're way off with the fools gold comment. Have you been watching Knick games? The last two games were a perfect example of how it ISN'T fools gold in that in one they played a BLISTERING game wire to wire shorthanded and in the other they can sort of chill out for a few quarters and still come up with the W on the road. They've overcome a ton of adversity with key players going down at every turn and STILL are atop the East. You can just see this team is going to be a handful for any team in the league once Stat gets back in rhythm.

You've been blinded by the Lin thing. Appreciate that both franchises are in a good place ATM.

[mpharris36]

It proves you're reading stats to gauge Lin as a player, and never really watch Rox games. Compare the team's offense when he's on floor and when he's not, besides the stats that appear on boxscore (points, assists), Lin's style of play is giving player with the ball space to operate, and their spacing when he's on the floor and off is incredibly stark. They pass fluidly when he's on the floor.

Asik has been incredible rebounder, Harden has been unstoppable, Delfino/ Toney/ even PPat and Morris have been lights out, all of them shoot mostly uncontested shots and Lin engineers the spacing and player movement. Watch Lin when he does not have the ball, you'll see a player who is totally aware of spacing, player movement, when to demand/receive ball, when to give ball and give space to his teammate to do his thing.

Just a note, since his 31 pts game against us, Parsons has fallen to earth, his shooting percentage has been bad, and has not been the 18ppg all-around scoring threat he was earlier in November.

the rockets play an extremely fast past game which allows so many shots and points scored. I just foresee that as a sustainable style of play...especially when the season shortens and the playoffs begin.

again i may slightly downplay Lin's intangibles. I watched every game when he was here and saw what he did. He knows how to play the game. However you need to admit that you are overrating his talents.

Lin may be aware of "spacing" but he is someone that isnt' a great shooter. He is a solid player, but he isn't someone that you can't find. I don't want to say he is a dime a dozen....that wouldn't be fair as he is still very young in his career. But like I stated above there are a ton of young guards in this league that are impressing. Lin doesn't stand out to me IMO.

[Winseb]

All of these unneeded questions about chemistry and fit, no longer being asked. The Knicks' focus this season is all about everyone else and winning. There is hardly talk about, "can X play with Y", and "will A be able to play with B"

Those questions are still being asked, they're just not about Lin any more.

[mpharris36]

Assuming Harden wasn't there how can u honestly say they would have a similar record?

Because they wouldn't have had the feeling out period with Lin and harden. It would have been more like Linsanity with Kevin Martin having a more clearly defined pure shooter role.

Kevin Martin is a nice player but jeez u cannot tell me they would have a similar impact or the fact LIn could make up for all of Harden's playmaking

The Harden trade proved how much more valuable Harden is then Martin. They trade multiple 1st rounders, Lamb another 1st round talent just for Harden. They knew his talent and he has proved how dominant he can be as the go to option.

[omerome]

All of these unneeded questions about chemistry and fit, no longer being asked. The Knicks' focus this season is all about everyone else and winning. There is hardly talk about, "can X play with Y", and "will A be able to play with B"

Those questions are still being asked, they're just not about Lin any more.

You mean the age old question,"can Amar'e and Melo play together?" That question was asked before Lin was a Knick. Besides, it has been shown that they can indeed play together. Amar'e just needs to get his legs under him, that's all.

[GettinitDone]

Lol with argument that Lin brought attention to Knicks team. I think the Rockets have done well handling "Linsanity attention", with 20 wins now, pretty impressive considering they're a smaller market than New York and they're the youngest team in the L.

With or without "Linsanity attention", New York has always brought attention. We have biggest fanbase in L. And we're the oldest team in the L and a much more seasoned team than the Rox, you mean, we the volatile New York fanbase all of a sudden cannot handle a little bit of insanity, and they somehow can?

That's an absurd justification to defend Dolan's awful decision making. But you guys are the ones Dolan can always count for, when he makes bad decisions, he hides behind you guys who defend him.

I always say the Knicks are like pure, untainted soul, and it's never going to be tainted. But it "appears" tainted because we have an owner who has the blackest of black souls, no intelligence to save himself, and loads of money to tip him into the plunge of abyss. We should always separate Knicks the ball club and the ownership. The ones who should get out of New York are not players who play the right way like Lin, but people who don't play it the right way like Dolan.

[ibraheim718]

Free as in the dude didn't have a job and we signed him... Do you know how rare his situation is? Find me a guy that got the kind of pay raise he's gotten and that all things considered is giving a nice return on that pay raise? All those guys you're mentioning have had draft picks wasted on them. The mere fact that the guy is a starting PG on a team in playoff position in an extremely tough conference is enough to admit... yeah.. the guy's pretty good.

He was free, keyword "was" free when we picked him off waivers. What he has done last season is in the past. What he is doing in Houston has no bearing on what the Knicks are doing now. He wouldn't be free because we would of had to pay a hefty price to keep him.

I mean let's just think about this for a second. For the first couple of games when Lin was still recovering from his knee injury. Do you really think the team (Knicks) would be playing at the level they are right now? He was really struggling out there. It took Lin a while to get his legs under him and can you imagine if Lin somehow struggled here how the media would be all over it (us)? Sheesh...I don't want to think about it.

I was happy with Lin was here but like it was mentioned before, the best part about him being gone is all of the attention that he (and it wasn't directly his fault) brought is gone too. All of these unneeded questions about chemistry and fit, no longer being asked. The Knicks' focus this season is all about everyone else and winning. There is hardly talk about, "can X play with Y", and "will A be able to play with B", and "who's team should it be".

The Knicks replaced Lin with Felton and the Knicks have their best start in over ten years. Was it all because of Felton? Of course not. But us not re-signing Lin didn't turn into a catastrophic failure or a major blunder when the dust settled. Lin is doing his thing in Houston with Harden and Felton is doing his thing in New York with Melo and the rest of the team.

The Knicks have a good thing going now and if a reason is because some players felt that a burden has been lifted, I am happy because when all is said and done, the Knicks are winning. And that's all that matters.

The slow start and struggles wasn't all just because he needed to find his legs.. coaching played a part while they figured out how to best utilize Harden and Lin together... and the adjustment of going from playing with a guy like Martin to playing with a guy like Harden both also played a big part on his struggles.

And honestly... and I'll leave it at this... the Knicks are a better team in June and into the future if it was Lin playing next to and under Kidd's watchful eye.

And lastly the media stuff and distraction talk honestly drives me crazy. The big reason I wanted to dump the youngins for Melo was because most of those guys were letting the trade talks shake them up and that showed a serious weakness in their mental constitution. So if the Lin stuff was a "distraction" and winning a championship is the main goal I don't want the players that couldn't handle the distraction on my team. When a season is said and done I'm a pretty firm believer that no team has dealt with more adversity or distractions better than the champs.

[Bill Bradley]

Personally I think the Knicks hot start was fools gold. They had a lot to prove with the whole Lin saga and came out motivated and then reverted to who they really were, and will continue to do so. Knicks would be far better if guys like Melo and JR could ditch their egos and play team ball with Lin. But they feel more comfortable with Felton and that has helped team chemistry but hurt overall talent level and team play. Just my opinion.

I also tend to think that we'd be better with Lin but you're way off with the fools gold comment. Have you been watching Knick games? The last two games were a perfect example of how it ISN'T fools gold in that in one they played a BLISTERING game wire to wire shorthanded and in the other they can sort of chill out for a few quarters and still come up with the W on the road. They've overcome a ton of adversity with key players going down at every turn and STILL are atop the East. You can just see this team is going to be a handful for any team in the league once Stat gets back in rhythm.

You've been blinded by the Lin thing. Appreciate that both franchises are in a good place ATM.

Well maybe so, but I doubt it

I still think their guard play isn't near championship level and they will continue to struggle with team chemistry and injuries. I think they have gone all in and their ceiling just isnt high Enough. But we will see. I still root for them to succeed.

[Bill Bradley]

Assuming Harden wasn't there how can u honestly say they would have a similar record?

Because they wouldn't have had the feeling out period with Lin and harden. It would have been more like Linsanity with Kevin Martin having a more clearly defined pure shooter role.

Kevin Martin is a nice player but jeez u cannot tell me they would have a similar impact or the fact LIn could make up for all of Harden's playmaking

The Harden trade proved how much more valuable Harden is then Martin. They trade multiple 1st rounders, Lamb another 1st round talent just for Harden. They knew his talent and he has proved how dominant he can be as the go to option.

You misunderstood me. I think their ceiling is much higher with Harden but they wouldn't have taken so long to gel with Martin and would have been an 8 seed or so.

[Capn'O]

The "Can Melo play with Amar'e" questions are just pathetic at this point. Melo scored 40 **** points tonight and Stat's challenges had nothing to do with spacing... just a lack of rhythm. This is really the first he's played against contact in what? 6 months except for one game in the preseason? He's going to be rusty. But he's finding his spots just fine.

[omerome]

The slow start and struggles wasn't all just because he needed to find his legs.. coaching played a part while they figured out how to best utilize Harden and Lin together... and the adjustment of going from playing with a guy like Martin to playing with a guy like Harden both also played a big part on his struggles.

And honestly... and I'll leave it at this... the Knicks are a better team in June and into the future if it was Lin playing next to and under Kidd's watchful eye.

And lastly the media stuff and distraction talk honestly drives me crazy. The big reason I wanted to dump the youngins for Melo was because most of those guys were letting the trade talks shake them up and that showed a serious weakness in their mental constitution. So if the Lin stuff was a "distraction" and winning a championship is the main goal I don't want the players that couldn't handle the distraction on my team. When a season is said and done I'm a pretty firm believer that no team has dealt with more adversity or distractions better than the champs.

Moving forward, Lin may indeed be the better PG for us but that's in the past. Thinking about what ifs at this point is poison. It will only consume you into coming up with hypothetical situations that won't happen.

As for the media stuff, as a fan, it was driving ME crazy; and I am just watching the games. As much as you don't like players being shaken up or it affecting them, they are the ones who have to deal directly with all of the attention head on. They are human and I'm sure it got tiring after a while. Right now the team can just focus on winning. They don't even have to deal with the "Battle of the Boroughs" with the Nets right now, the Knicks have proven they are the better team. That alone is refreshing.

I was disappointed in not re-signing Lin but it is what it is. I'm happy with the team right now and I am optimistic that when everyone is healthy, we can be a tough out in the playoffs.

[Falstaffxx]

Personally I think the Knicks hot start was fools gold. They had a lot to prove with the whole Lin saga and came out motivated and then reverted to who they really were, and will continue to do so. Knicks would be far better if guys like Melo and JR could ditch their egos and play team ball with Lin. But they feel more comfortable with Felton and that has helped team chemistry but hurt overall talent level and team play. Just my opinion.

I think you make a good point when you say, yes, the rest of the Knicks' core is more comfortable with Felton and so it's helped their chemistry, but that it's a failing that they can't be comfortable with the superior player, who is Lin. There's little question in my mind that, although Felton has done a good job for the Knicks for the most part, Lin is the better player and the Knicks would have had a higher ceiling with him. I will say though, that I think the Knicks have found a good formula and are a very good team right now...how far that will take them, I can't say. I don't like the fact that it's basically this year or next year, or rebuild, when they don't seem to have enough talent at the core to really contend for a championship. When year 3 comes, it would be nicer to rebuild with Lin and Shumpert in the backcourt.

[ibraheim718]

Who has seen this kid play?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_eoeg_NfN4[/youtube]

[GettinitDone]

It proves you're reading stats to gauge Lin as a player, and never really watch Rox games. Compare the team's offense when he's on floor and when he's not, besides the stats that appear on boxscore (points, assists), Lin's style of play is giving player with the ball space to operate, and their spacing when he's on the floor and off is incredibly stark. They pass fluidly when he's on the floor.

Asik has been incredible rebounder, Harden has been unstoppable, Delfino/ Toney/ even PPat and Morris have been lights out, all of them shoot mostly uncontested shots and Lin engineers the spacing and player movement. Watch Lin when he does not have the ball, you'll see a player who is totally aware of spacing, player movement, when to demand/receive ball, when to give ball and give space to his teammate to do his thing.

Just a note, since his 31 pts game against us, Parsons has fallen to earth, his shooting percentage has been bad, and has not been the 18ppg all-around scoring threat he was earlier in November.

the rockets play an extremely fast past game which allows so many shots and points scored. I just foresee that as a sustainable style of play...especially when the season shortens and the playoffs begin.

again i may slightly downplay Lin's intangibles. I watched every game when he was here and saw what he did. He knows how to play the game. However you need to admit that you are overrating his talents.

Lin may be aware of "spacing" but he is someone that isnt' a great shooter. He is a solid player, but he isn't someone that you can't find. I don't want to say he is a dime a dozen....that wouldn't be fair as he is still very young in his career. But like I stated above there are a ton of young guards in this league that are impressing. Lin doesn't stand out to me IMO.

Lin does not space with his shooting, he spaces with his movement (when he does not have the ball), something that is so underrated but truly enhances player's (who has the ball) efficiency, and this spacing also has knack for "convincing" player with ball to pass/ trust more.

Fyi, they did not play this fast back in November when they freshly acquired Harden. They played iso-Harden where he jacked 30-35 shots a game and the other 4 players just stood and watched. They did not run.

They started running when they put the ball in Lin's hands more, when they say, "okay instead of 95% iso-Harden, maybe we can do 55% iso-Harden and 45% Linning" and they have gone bonkers, destroying some of the elite defenses (Memphis, us, Bulls) and scoring in the 110s.

Lin is not the product of their running game because it did not exist before. They started to play running game when it's revealed to them putting the ball in Lin's hands actually gets the ball in 3 other Rockets on floor and still lets Harden do his thing. As Lin gave the ball and then scored 38 pts when he had to, the Rox had benefit of doubt and started trusting him more. The key word here is trust, when you play for Rox and you're open, you're gonna get the ball.

The Rockets are playing how we were playing early in November, and I hope we start watching them more and revert back to that unselfish/ effortless ball-sharing.

[Bill Bradley]

The "Can Melo play with Amar'e" questions are just pathetic at this point. Melo scored 40 **** points tonight and Stat's challenges had nothing to do with spacing... just a lack of rhythm. This is really the first he's played against contact in what? 6 months except for one game in the preseason? He's going to be rusty. But he's finding his spots just fine.

Not to turn this thread into being about the Knicks, but I think the injuries to Amare and now Felton were blessings in disguise. I don't think the Knicks would be anywhere near this good with a healthy Amare starting the season. I have wanted Amare off the bench for awhile now. It is clearly best for the team.

[Falstaffxx]

The "Can Melo play with Amar'e" questions are just pathetic at this point. Melo scored 40 **** points tonight and Stat's challenges had nothing to do with spacing... just a lack of rhythm. This is really the first he's played against contact in what? 6 months except for one game in the preseason? He's going to be rusty. But he's finding his spots just fine.

Not to turn this thread into being about the Knicks, but I think the injuries to Amare and now Felton were blessings in disguise. I don't think the Knicks would be anywhere near this good with a healthy Amare starting the season. I have wanted Amare off the bench for awhile now. It is clearly best for the team.

I agree about the Stoudemire injury. There's potential in Amar'e coming off the bench if he can get comfortable and get his mid-range going. If he started the season healthy and was in the starting lineup with Chandler and Anthony, it might have been a mess.

[ibraheim718]

The slow start and struggles wasn't all just because he needed to find his legs.. coaching played a part while they figured out how to best utilize Harden and Lin together... and the adjustment of going from playing with a guy like Martin to playing with a guy like Harden both also played a big part on his struggles.

And honestly... and I'll leave it at this... the Knicks are a better team in June and into the future if it was Lin playing next to and under Kidd's watchful eye.

And lastly the media stuff and distraction talk honestly drives me crazy. The big reason I wanted to dump the youngins for Melo was because most of those guys were letting the trade talks shake them up and that showed a serious weakness in their mental constitution. So if the Lin stuff was a "distraction" and winning a championship is the main goal I don't want the players that couldn't handle the distraction on my team. When a season is said and done I'm a pretty firm believer that no team has dealt with more adversity or distractions better than the champs.

Moving forward, Lin may indeed be the better PG for us but that's in the past. Thinking about what ifs at this point is poison. It will only consume you into coming up with hypothetical situations that won't happen.

As for the media stuff, as a fan, it was driving ME crazy; and I am just watching the games. As much as you don't like players being shaken up or it affecting them, they are the ones who have to deal directly with all of the attention head on. They are human and I'm sure it got tiring after a while. Right now the team can just focus on winning. They don't even have to deal with the "Battle of the Boroughs" with the Nets right now, the Knicks have proven they are the better team. That alone is refreshing.

I was disappointed in not re-signing Lin but it is what it is. I'm happy with the team right now and I am optimistic that when everyone is healthy, we can be a tough out in the playoffs.

I can't argue with anything you're saying.

[Capn'O]

Personally I think the Knicks hot start was fools gold. They had a lot to prove with the whole Lin saga and came out motivated and then reverted to who they really were, and will continue to do so. Knicks would be far better if guys like Melo and JR could ditch their egos and play team ball with Lin. But they feel more comfortable with Felton and that has helped team chemistry but hurt overall talent level and team play. Just my opinion.

I also tend to think that we'd be better with Lin but you're way off with the fools gold comment. Have you been watching Knick games? The last two games were a perfect example of how it ISN'T fools gold in that in one they played a BLISTERING game wire to wire shorthanded and in the other they can sort of chill out for a few quarters and still come up with the W on the road. They've overcome a ton of adversity with key players going down at every turn and STILL are atop the East. You can just see this team is going to be a handful for any team in the league once Stat gets back in rhythm.

You've been blinded by the Lin thing. Appreciate that both franchises are in a good place ATM.

Well maybe so, but I doubt it

I still think their guard play isn't near championship level and they will continue to struggle with team chemistry and injuries. I think they have gone all in and their ceiling just isnt high Enough. But we will see. I still root for them to succeed.

Felton alone isn't but he and Kidd have been fantastic when they're paired together. I know you hate Kidd but as a player he's still pretty fantastic and makes up for the brain farts on Felton's part. If the Knicks can get their full guard rotation healthy and keep Kidd fresh they certainly have championship caliber guard play FOR THIS TEAM. JR is just on another level this year. It's hard to explain... but all of the things he should be able to do... he's doing them. Perimeter D is still an issue but Shump eliminating Brewer from meaningful rotation minutes will eventually eliminate that problem. The last variable is that Stat needs to remain healthy and continue his focus on defense. Woodson and staff have been giving him 1 on 1 attention in this department and are even telling him to get in the correct stance Which has seriously been a major issue for him. He needed to go back to square 1 and you can see the fundamentals improving... finally.

And, of course, Melo has been unstoppable. He's down about 10 pounds from last year for one thing but both he and JR have been taking GOOD shots primarily. Not a lot of off balance or double teamed stuff. And if you're single covering Melo he damn well should be taking the shot.

So that's a lot of things that need to work out or continue to go as they have but you can say that for most championship contenders. But this record isn't fools gold at all. It's a very good team with the potential of being a great one by season's end.