Official MMA discussion thread: UFC 231 Holloway vs Ortega finally!

[HarthorneWingo]

Now Paulie and Conor are talking about a fight. If they do that, then Conor has to give up his belts.

I don't like it either, but when his alternatives are to get choked out by Tony or smashed by Khabib, getting pillow punched by Paulie in 12 oz gloves for probably 5 x his UFC quota is an attractive option imo

Ok then he can give up his belts if he’s not going to defend them. Let Tony and Khabib fight for the one belt.


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[ctorres]

I'm still hoping to see Jon Jones versus Brock Lennar somewhere down the line!

[j4remi]

There's a crazy amount of cards coming to close out this year. 217 is the supercard with the hype but 218 is a MONSTER with another addition yesterday (Waterson vs Torres). That's the better card to me, better main event and better depth. The other surrounding cards are mostly solid ones but not jaw dropping, they're just good to feed the MMA obsessed's soul. Since MayMac, it's been a bit of a lull in MMA quality cards but we're about to go on a run.

I'm still hoping to see Jon Jones versus Brock Lennar somewhere down the line!

There's been some weirdness from the NSAC and Dana White on Jones' situation. He's a cash cow for them at a time when they just had their worst back to back PPV ratings since UFC 46,47. I'm not crossing my fingers but it's been suggested that Jones could be back way sooner than we originally thought and the WME "we need ratings" approach means it's not a completely unrealistic suggestion. Jones was about to move up to HW and fight for the belt when he failed.

[waya]

There's a crazy amount of cards coming to close out this year. 217 is the supercard with the hype but 218 is a MONSTER with another addition yesterday (Waterson vs Torres). That's the better card to me, better main event and better depth. The other surrounding cards are mostly solid ones but not jaw dropping, they're just good to feed the MMA obsessed's soul. Since MayMac, it's been a bit of a lull in MMA quality cards but we're about to go on a run.

Not sure if you posted it already, but predictions on GSP/Bisping?

[j4remi]

Not sure if you posted it already, but predictions on GSP/Bisping?

Haven't done my Fight Pass run to really make a pick (definitely betting this one), but off of memory and circumstance I'm leaning heavy toward Bisping right now. GSP's jab is great but Bisping's the better boxer all around, Bisping has high level takedown defense and he's much bigger. Add the rust factor and it's hard for me to pick GSP on long absence, being smaller and having not used his kicking ability since the knee issues (old school GSP pre-Serra loss was sick with kicks).

[HarthorneWingo]

There's a crazy amount of cards coming to close out this year. 217 is the supercard with the hype but 218 is a MONSTER with another addition yesterday (Waterson vs Torres). That's the better card to me, better main event and better depth. The other surrounding cards are mostly solid ones but not jaw dropping, they're just good to feed the MMA obsessed's soul. Since MayMac, it's been a bit of a lull in MMA quality cards but we're about to go on a run.

I'm still hoping to see Jon Jones versus Brock Lennar somewhere down the line!

There's been some weirdness from the NSAC and Dana White on Jones' situation. He's a cash cow for them at a time when they just had their worst back to back PPV ratings since UFC 46,47. I'm not crossing my fingers but it's been suggested that Jones could be back way sooner than we originally thought and the WME "we need ratings" approach means it's not a completely unrealistic suggestion. Jones was about to move up to HW and fight for the belt when he failed.

If they let Jones skate, it'll make a mockery of the testing program and the organization. He has to get at least 2 years.

[j4remi]

If they let Jones skate, it'll make a mockery of the testing program and the organization. He has to get at least 2 years.

I have very little faith in the UFC, State Athletic Commissions or USADA to actually care about fighter health rather than image and profits which is why I'm skeptical. Kevin Lee was allowed to cut 1 lbs. an hour for 19 hours heading into weigh-ins WITH STAPH INFECTION. The physicians said he was in "excellent health" while the man was weight cutting an exorbitant amount with staph infection while on antibiotics just 24 hours before a fight. Add in the exemption they gave Brock Lesnar from pre-fight testing only to have him fail his postfight drug test and I can't find a rhyme or reason to anything these bodies do unless it has dollar signs involved. Buncha Dolans...all of em!

[HarthorneWingo]

If they let Jones skate, it'll make a mockery of the testing program and the organization. He has to get at least 2 years.

I have very little faith in the UFC, State Athletic Commissions or USADA to actually care about fighter health rather than image and profits which is why I'm skeptical. Kevin Lee was allowed to cut 1 lbs. an hour for 19 hours heading into weigh-ins WITH STAPH INFECTION. The physicians said he was in "excellent health" while the man was weight cutting an exorbitant amount with staph infection while on antibiotics just 24 hours before a fight. Add in the exemption they gave Brock Lesnar from pre-fight testing only to have him fail his postfight drug test and I can't find a rhyme or reason to anything these bodies do unless it has dollar signs involved. Buncha Dolans...all of em!

I was also shocked that they Lee fight. So, given that, I guess nothing should surprise me. But Jones has shown time and time again that he's not reliable. What about the risk of future pullouts and post-fight disqualifications. Isn't THAT what's causing the drop in ratings/PPV purchases? We get suckered into buying these PPV and find out either right before or afterward that the fighter was juiced. That's what caused me not to buy any more fights. (That and the fact that I can watch them for free on YouTube immediately after the fights .)

[NoStatsGuy]

If they let Jones skate, it'll make a mockery of the testing program and the organization. He has to get at least 2 years.

I have very little faith in the UFC, State Athletic Commissions or USADA to actually care about fighter health rather than image and profits which is why I'm skeptical. Kevin Lee was allowed to cut 1 lbs. an hour for 19 hours heading into weigh-ins WITH STAPH INFECTION. The physicians said he was in "excellent health" while the man was weight cutting an exorbitant amount with staph infection while on antibiotics just 24 hours before a fight. Add in the exemption they gave Brock Lesnar from pre-fight testing only to have him fail his postfight drug test and I can't find a rhyme or reason to anything these bodies do unless it has dollar signs involved. Buncha Dolans...all of em!

I was also shocked that they Lee fight. So, given that, I guess nothing should surprise me. But Jones has shown time and time again that he's not reliable. What about the risk of future pullouts and post-fight disqualifications. Isn't THAT what's causing the drop in ratings/PPV purchases? We get suckered into buying these PPV and find out either right before or afterward that the fighter was juiced. That's what caused me not to buy any more fights. (That and the fact that I can watch them for free on YouTube immediately after the fights .)

the lesnar v hunt thing was an embarrasment. they knew he was on it and still let him fight.

i can only agrre USADA is not about keeping the fighters healthy. Jones shouldnt be allowed to fight ever again, if you ask me. and im a huge jbj fan inside the octagon, theres nothing i would love to see more than a healthy jbj on his a game dominating LHW div and maybe even hw.

i have no doubt he is by faaaaaaaar the greatest talent to ever grace that UFC octagon. but the only time he wasnt on it, he really didnt look too good vs OSP. he got so many chances and blows them time and time again. i dont say ban him for life from fighting. but if im dana white i wouldnt let him fight for the ufc again

[HarthorneWingo]

I have very little faith in the UFC, State Athletic Commissions or USADA to actually care about fighter health rather than image and profits which is why I'm skeptical. Kevin Lee was allowed to cut 1 lbs. an hour for 19 hours heading into weigh-ins WITH STAPH INFECTION. The physicians said he was in "excellent health" while the man was weight cutting an exorbitant amount with staph infection while on antibiotics just 24 hours before a fight. Add in the exemption they gave Brock Lesnar from pre-fight testing only to have him fail his postfight drug test and I can't find a rhyme or reason to anything these bodies do unless it has dollar signs involved. Buncha Dolans...all of em!

I was also shocked that they Lee fight. So, given that, I guess nothing should surprise me. But Jones has shown time and time again that he's not reliable. What about the risk of future pullouts and post-fight disqualifications. Isn't THAT what's causing the drop in ratings/PPV purchases? We get suckered into buying these PPV and find out either right before or afterward that the fighter was juiced. That's what caused me not to buy any more fights. (That and the fact that I can watch them for free on YouTube immediately after the fights .)

the lesnar v hunt thing was an embarrasment. they knew he was on it and still let him fight.

i can only agrre USADA is not about keeping the fighters healthy. Jones shouldnt be allowed to fight ever again, if you ask me. and im a huge jbj fan inside the octagon, theres nothing i would love to see more than a healthy jbj on his a game dominating LHW div and maybe even hw.

i have no doubt he is by faaaaaaaar the greatest talent to ever grace that UFC octagon. but the only time he wasnt on it, he really didnt look too good vs OSP. he got so many chances and blows them time and time again. i dont say ban him for life from fighting. but if im dana white i wouldnt let him fight for the ufc again

I agree with most of your post. But I would need to see Jones dominate when I knew he was on the juice. Even then, I think Anderson Silva is the greatest and I don't think it's close.

[j4remi]

I was also shocked that they Lee fight. So, given that, I guess nothing should surprise me. But Jones has shown time and time again that he's not reliable. What about the risk of future pullouts and post-fight disqualifications. Isn't THAT what's causing the drop in ratings/PPV purchases? We get suckered into buying these PPV and find out either right before or afterward that the fighter was juiced. That's what caused me not to buy any more fights. (That and the fact that I can watch them for free on YouTube immediately after the fights .)

the lesnar v hunt thing was an embarrasment. they knew he was on it and still let him fight.

i can only agrre USADA is not about keeping the fighters healthy. Jones shouldnt be allowed to fight ever again, if you ask me. and im a huge jbj fan inside the octagon, theres nothing i would love to see more than a healthy jbj on his a game dominating LHW div and maybe even hw.

i have no doubt he is by faaaaaaaar the greatest talent to ever grace that UFC octagon. but the only time he wasnt on it, he really didnt look too good vs OSP. he got so many chances and blows them time and time again. i dont say ban him for life from fighting. but if im dana white i wouldnt let him fight for the ufc again

Agreed and the problem with Dana is he can complain about JBJ all he wants but the UFC will never release the guy for fear of other promotions snatching him up. They're still booking BJ Penn fights out of fear of losing his name (meanwhile they've let still prime fighters like Horiguchi and Mousasi walk).

And co-sign Wingo 1000% on the fighters being pulled late issue. I think weight cutting, the IV Ban and fighter pay structure all have roles in creating this issue and exacerbating it recently (also they can't juice to health with USADA's better tests, but that's way more speculative than evidence based as a theory). I was throwing viewing parties for most cards so I could have the events DVR'ed but the last couple of PPV's were so weak that we stopped doing that and just hit sports bars instead. To be fair, UFC 216 was great though.

[NoStatsGuy]

I was also shocked that they Lee fight. So, given that, I guess nothing should surprise me. But Jones has shown time and time again that he's not reliable. What about the risk of future pullouts and post-fight disqualifications. Isn't THAT what's causing the drop in ratings/PPV purchases? We get suckered into buying these PPV and find out either right before or afterward that the fighter was juiced. That's what caused me not to buy any more fights. (That and the fact that I can watch them for free on YouTube immediately after the fights .)

the lesnar v hunt thing was an embarrasment. they knew he was on it and still let him fight.

i can only agrre USADA is not about keeping the fighters healthy. Jones shouldnt be allowed to fight ever again, if you ask me. and im a huge jbj fan inside the octagon, theres nothing i would love to see more than a healthy jbj on his a game dominating LHW div and maybe even hw.

i have no doubt he is by faaaaaaaar the greatest talent to ever grace that UFC octagon. but the only time he wasnt on it, he really didnt look too good vs OSP. he got so many chances and blows them time and time again. i dont say ban him for life from fighting. but if im dana white i wouldnt let him fight for the ufc again

I agree with most of your post. But I would need to see Jones dominate when I knew he was on the juice. Even then, I think Anderson Silva is the greatest and I don't think it's close.

might be true. my perception of silva is tainted because he didnt know when to stop.

his fight with nick diaz shouldve been his last, diaz opened my eyes that night. anderson THE SPIDER silva died that day for me, somehow. but he probably needed the paycheck more than he had a desire to fight DC and bisping, so hes kind of excused

[j4remi]

might be true. my perception of silva is tainted because he didnt know when to stop.

his fight with nick diaz shouldve been his last, diaz opened my eyes that night. anderson THE SPIDER silva died that day for me, somehow. but he probably needed the paycheck more than he had a desire to fight DC and bisping, so hes kind of excused

Jon Jones has the most impressive record, just unbelievable quality opponents and he ran through them. But Anderson Silva in his prime was the most dominant fighter I've ever witnessed. No resume compares to Jones but no one ever toyed with elite fighters like Silva. GSP has fallen out of favor in the convo but the man won the most consecutive rounds in UFC history. DJ needs some bigger competition to make his case firm but he's in the conversation too. Fedor is the one I've always kinda dogged because he wasted a chunk of his prime on squash matches in the more theatrical overseas MMA world. They've all got a case and all for different reasons, but I think it's too impossible to compare fighters from different eras to definitively crown anyone. After the steroid stuff I go:
1. Anderson
2. Jones
3. Mighty Mouse
4. GSP
5. Fedor

and if you removed all of the TRT and PED guys it'd oddly enough be something like
1. Mighty Mouse
2. GSP
3. Fedor
4. Bisping (people HATE me for this one but he's clean and lost to almost exclusively PED users)
5. Shogun Rua (one of my personal all time favorites and the best 205'er in my book, of an era where 205 was head and shoulders above any other division).

[NoStatsGuy]

might be true. my perception of silva is tainted because he didnt know when to stop.

his fight with nick diaz shouldve been his last, diaz opened my eyes that night. anderson THE SPIDER silva died that day for me, somehow. but he probably needed the paycheck more than he had a desire to fight DC and bisping, so hes kind of excused

Jon Jones has the most impressive record, just unbelievable quality opponents and he ran through them. But Anderson Silva in his prime was the most dominant fighter I've ever witnessed. No resume compares to Jones but no one ever toyed with elite fighters like Silva. GSP has fallen out of favor in the convo but the man won the most consecutive rounds in UFC history. DJ needs some bigger competition to make his case firm but he's in the conversation too. Fedor is the one I've always kinda dogged because he wasted a chunk of his prime on squash matches in the more theatrical overseas MMA world. They've all got a case and all for different reasons, but I think it's too impossible to compare fighters from different eras to definitively crown anyone. After the steroid stuff I go:
1. Anderson
2. Jones
3. Mighty Mouse
4. GSP
5. Fedor

and if you removed all of the TRT and PED guys it'd oddly enough be something like
1. Mighty Mouse
2. GSP
3. Fedor
4. Bisping (people HATE me for this one but he's clean and lost to almost exclusively PED users)
5. Shogun Rua (one of my personal all time favorites and the best 205'er in my book, of an era where 205 was head and shoulders above any other division).

yup, seems on point i can totally agree. And i love Shogun aswell!

when i was referring to jones, i had the sheer talent in mind. like, at what age he came in and took over. just imagine him without all the crazy demons he had faught. he only lost to himself ever in his career.

i would love to mention nick diaz as one of the best fighters, or more so, most fascinating fighters. but his accomplishments are just not there. And Bisping yea.. I dont like him, but what can you say? If he wins vs gsp, he would be the only one who beat gsp and silva, right? pretty crazy.. pretty great.

[HarthorneWingo]

might be true. my perception of silva is tainted because he didnt know when to stop.

his fight with nick diaz shouldve been his last, diaz opened my eyes that night. anderson THE SPIDER silva died that day for me, somehow. but he probably needed the paycheck more than he had a desire to fight DC and bisping, so hes kind of excused

Jon Jones has the most impressive record, just unbelievable quality opponents and he ran through them. But Anderson Silva in his prime was the most dominant fighter I've ever witnessed. No resume compares to Jones but no one ever toyed with elite fighters like Silva. GSP has fallen out of favor in the convo but the man won the most consecutive rounds in UFC history. DJ needs some bigger competition to make his case firm but he's in the conversation too. Fedor is the one I've always kinda dogged because he wasted a chunk of his prime on squash matches in the more theatrical overseas MMA world. They've all got a case and all for different reasons, but I think it's too impossible to compare fighters from different eras to definitively crown anyone. After the steroid stuff I go:
1. Anderson
2. Jones
3. Mighty Mouse
4. GSP
5. Fedor

and if you removed all of the TRT and PED guys it'd oddly enough be something like
1. Mighty Mouse
2. GSP
3. Fedor
4. Bisping (people HATE me for this one but he's clean and lost to almost exclusively PED users)
5. Shogun Rua (one of my personal all time favorites and the best 205'er in my book, of an era where 205 was head and shoulders above any other division).

I'd love to see your rankings (almost typed "tankings" lol) for the old bare knuckles fighters one day when you have the chance.

[j4remi]

I'd love to see your rankings (almost typed "tankings" lol) for the old bare knuckles fighters one day when you have the chance.

That's an awesome idea! I'd legitimately have to write out names to do some MMA math but one person I can guarantee will be on that list and who doesn't get name-dropped often any more is Dan Severn! The brainstorming will have me all over my FightPass subscription watching classics.

[HarthorneWingo]

I'd love to see your rankings (almost typed "tankings" lol) for the old bare knuckles fighters one day when you have the chance.

That's an awesome idea! I'd legitimately have to write out names to do some MMA math but one person I can guarantee will be on that list and who doesn't get name-dropped often any more is Dan Severn! The brainstorming will have me all over my FightPass subscription watching classics.

Excellent. I was going to name-drop Servern's name as an example!

Other possibilities?

Mark Coleman
Kevin Randleman
Don Frye
Bas Rutten
Ken Shamrock
Frank Shamrock
Dan Henderson

[j4remi]

I'd love to see your rankings (almost typed "tankings" lol) for the old bare knuckles fighters one day when you have the chance.

That's an awesome idea! I'd legitimately have to write out names to do some MMA math but one person I can guarantee will be on that list and who doesn't get name-dropped often any more is Dan Severn! The brainstorming will have me all over my FightPass subscription watching classics.

Excellent. I was going to name-drop Servern's name as an example!

Other possibilities?

Mark Coleman
Kevin Randleman
Don Frye
Bas Rutten
Ken Shamrock
Frank Shamrock
Dan Henderson

Those two are probably on my All era top 10 list but I'd have to make a massive list for that. As far as the early days though, they'd probably be right at the top.

Others I'd be considering:
Hughes, Tanner and Franklin (grouped because they come along later than the rest)
Young Vitor and BJ Penn
Matt Lindland (fought anybody from 170-Heavyweight including Fedor)
Marco Ruas the GOAT leg kicker of the old era
Jens Pulver

and then the overseas killers! Sakuraba, Rickson Gracie (more legend than real footage on that one), Kid Dynamite, Genki Sudo (not a GOAT but my personal favorite fighter ever so I squeeze him in), Wanderlei and Chuck in the Vale Tudo days and Crocop

I'm pretty sure every name we've got competed in no weight, one night tournaments. Frank Shamrock vs Bas Rutten was open palm rules and more brutal than most fights today! I'm getting nostalgia like crazy. Even the guys who were a tier below these names but still memorable,
Frank Trigg, Gary Goodridge, Carlos Newton, Guy Mezger, Ricardo Arona

I'll be blowing up FightPass all weekend.

Edit: and GLARING omission on me is Tank Abbott!

[HarthorneWingo]

That's an awesome idea! I'd legitimately have to write out names to do some MMA math but one person I can guarantee will be on that list and who doesn't get name-dropped often any more is Dan Severn! The brainstorming will have me all over my FightPass subscription watching classics.

Excellent. I was going to name-drop Servern's name as an example!

Other possibilities?

Mark Coleman
Kevin Randleman
Don Frye
Bas Rutten
Ken Shamrock
Frank Shamrock
Dan Henderson

Those two are probably on my All era top 10 list but I'd have to make a massive list for that. As far as the early days though, they'd probably be right at the top.

Others I'd be considering:
Hughes, Tanner and Franklin (grouped because they come along later than the rest)
Young Vitor and BJ Penn
Matt Lindland (fought anybody from 170-Heavyweight including Fedor)
Marco Ruas the GOAT leg kicker of the old era
Jens Pulver

and then the overseas killers! Sakuraba, Rickson Gracie (more legend than real footage on that one), Kid Dynamite, Genki Sudo (not a GOAT but my personal favorite fighter ever so I squeeze him in), Wanderlei and Chuck in the Vale Tudo days and Crocop

I'm pretty sure every name we've got competed in no weight, one night tournaments. Frank Shamrock vs Bas Rutten was open palm rules and more brutal than most fights today! I'm getting nostalgia like crazy. Even the guys who were a tier below these names but still memorable,
Frank Trigg, Gary Goodridge, Carlos Newton, Guy Mezger, Ricardo Arona

I'll be blowing up FightPass all weekend.

Edit: and GLARING omission on me is Tank Abbott!

Tank! Also, Frank Trigg!

Fun stuff. I love going onto YouTube and watching these fight. I mean "headbutting" was legal!

[j4remi]

Tank! Also, Frank Trigg!

Fun stuff. I love going onto YouTube and watching these fight. I mean "headbutting" was legal!

Some classic moments in legal murder






Tried to find Royce Gracie pulling Kimo's hair for a submission but no luck.