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Around the Offseason, Take 2

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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#701 » by aq_ua » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:36 am

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:Defenses back then took a lot of clock, just as much as offenses did. I can see only the 90's Bulls being effective in todays NBA defensively. They had guys who could keep a player in front without hands and forearms and could play passing lanes effectively, and seemed to have a healthy amount of bigs that could secure boards. Then just happen to have a guy who could crack you for any number on any given night. They had the height, length, athleticism and skillset, honestly ahead of their time.

Nowadays things are just different. Offenses dictate the game. Weak offenses aint going anywhere regardless of their defense


When they had Rodman, they had 3 all-league defenders. MJ, Pippen, and Dennis. And Horace was an excellent defender. He may have made all-league too, IDK.

We also had some excellent defenders. It's very difficult to compare eras like this.

Hand checking rule change was a massive game changer. That made the pick and roll an unstoppable play. That alone makes it impossible to compare eras.
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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#702 » by Chanel Bomber » Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:57 am

K-DOT wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:
K-DOT wrote:It's more that teams play faster than they did 20 years ago, and shoot more efficient shots


Due to a lack of defense.

Due to people figuring out that 3>2, and that shooting a 60% layup is better than a 45% mid range

You put a team from the 90s in today's league, they're not gonna be nearly as good on defense as they were back then. Sure, team like the Bulls or Knicks would still be good, but they'd still give up well over 100 points a game, especially if they're playing a 90s front court out there

NBA offenses are just much smarter nowadays. Watching tape of the 90s Bulls or the 90s Knicks knowing how the game would evolve really makes you wonder how they would keep up with modern day offenses. There was little to no spacing, players kept running into each other’s space and their shot selection was questionable at best by today’s standards. Phil Jackson thought that giving up open 3s would lead to long rebounds and fastbreak opportunities if I remember correctly. Put the modern day Warriors or Rockets in the 90s and it’s a damn bloodbath in my opinion. The 90s are by far my favorite era btw.

Defenses were tougher back in the day, not better. It’s harder to play defense now because of how NBA offenses have evolved. Defenses are stretched out. Players need to cover more ground. Bigs need to able to protect the rim and switch onto quicker guards and contain them, otherwise they’re leaving 40% 3pt shooters open and then they’re toast. Good offenses mercilessly hunt mismatches. I think defenses are far more versatile now than they were back in the day because of these challenges. In fact, that’s one area where the Bulls were ahead of the curve with MJ, Scottie and Rodman being able to guard multiple positions. The only significant advantage that modern day defenses have is the zone defense which has in large part spelled the end of post-up play. The handchecking rule has made it easier as well but I think its impact is completely overblown and doesn’t affect defenses nearly as much as the rise of 3 point shooting and the improved shot selection league-wide.
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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#703 » by spree2kawhi » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:15 am

Chanel Bomber wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:
Due to a lack of defense.

Due to people figuring out that 3>2, and that shooting a 60% layup is better than a 45% mid range

You put a team from the 90s in today's league, they're not gonna be nearly as good on defense as they were back then. Sure, team like the Bulls or Knicks would still be good, but they'd still give up well over 100 points a game, especially if they're playing a 90s front court out there

NBA offenses are just much smarter nowadays. Watching tape of the 90s Bulls or the 90s Knicks knowing how the game would evolve really makes you wonder how they would keep up with modern day offenses. There was little to no spacing, players kept running into each other’s space and their shot selection was questionable at best by today’s standards. Phil Jackson thought that giving up open 3s would lead to long rebounds and fastbreak opportunities if I remember correctly. Put the modern day Warriors or Rockets in the 90s (my favorite era btw) and it’s a damn bloodbath in my opinion. The 90s are by far my favorite era btw.

Defenses were tougher back in the day, not better. It’s harder to play defense now because of how NBA offenses have evolved. Defenses are stretched out. Players need to cover more ground. Bigs need to able to protect the rim and switch onto quicker guards and contain them, otherwise they’re leaving 40% 3pt shooters open and then they’re toast. Good offenses mercilessly hunt mismatches. I think defenses are far more versatile now than they were back in the day because of these challenges. In fact, that’s one area where the Bulls were ahead of the curve with MJ, Scottie and Rodman being able to guard multiple positions. The only significant advantage that modern day defenses have is the zone defense which has in large part spelled the end of post-up play. The handchecking rule has made it easier as well but I think its impact is completely overblown and doesn’t affect defenses nearly as much as the rise of 3 point shooting and the improved shot selection league-wide.

This is the best post I've read here in a while.
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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#704 » by Fat Kat » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:44 am

aq_ua wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:Defenses back then took a lot of clock, just as much as offenses did. I can see only the 90's Bulls being effective in todays NBA defensively. They had guys who could keep a player in front without hands and forearms and could play passing lanes effectively, and seemed to have a healthy amount of bigs that could secure boards. Then just happen to have a guy who could crack you for any number on any given night. They had the height, length, athleticism and skillset, honestly ahead of their time.

Nowadays things are just different. Offenses dictate the game. Weak offenses aint going anywhere regardless of their defense


When they had Rodman, they had 3 all-league defenders. MJ, Pippen, and Dennis. And Horace was an excellent defender. He may have made all-league too, IDK.

We also had some excellent defenders. It's very difficult to compare eras like this.

Hand checking rule change was a massive game changer. That made the pick and roll an unstoppable play. That alone makes it impossible to compare eras.


This. The league office legislated good defense out of the game, and they’ll do it again if necessary. The perimeter touch fouls are out of hand IMO.
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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#705 » by thebuzzardman » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:38 pm

spree2kawhi wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:
K-DOT wrote:Due to people figuring out that 3>2, and that shooting a 60% layup is better than a 45% mid range

You put a team from the 90s in today's league, they're not gonna be nearly as good on defense as they were back then. Sure, team like the Bulls or Knicks would still be good, but they'd still give up well over 100 points a game, especially if they're playing a 90s front court out there

NBA offenses are just much smarter nowadays. Watching tape of the 90s Bulls or the 90s Knicks knowing how the game would evolve really makes you wonder how they would keep up with modern day offenses. There was little to no spacing, players kept running into each other’s space and their shot selection was questionable at best by today’s standards. Phil Jackson thought that giving up open 3s would lead to long rebounds and fastbreak opportunities if I remember correctly. Put the modern day Warriors or Rockets in the 90s (my favorite era btw) and it’s a damn bloodbath in my opinion. The 90s are by far my favorite era btw.

Defenses were tougher back in the day, not better. It’s harder to play defense now because of how NBA offenses have evolved. Defenses are stretched out. Players need to cover more ground. Bigs need to able to protect the rim and switch onto quicker guards and contain them, otherwise they’re leaving 40% 3pt shooters open and then they’re toast. Good offenses mercilessly hunt mismatches. I think defenses are far more versatile now than they were back in the day because of these challenges. In fact, that’s one area where the Bulls were ahead of the curve with MJ, Scottie and Rodman being able to guard multiple positions. The only significant advantage that modern day defenses have is the zone defense which has in large part spelled the end of post-up play. The handchecking rule has made it easier as well but I think its impact is completely overblown and doesn’t affect defenses nearly as much as the rise of 3 point shooting and the improved shot selection league-wide.

This is the best post I've read here in a while.


Handcheck rule, 7 seconds or less Suns and Dirk, who encourages teams to have bigs who can shoot it and it's ok, feel like the big 3 evolutions that happen. I'm not sure the GSW are evolutionary - teams surely became more encouraged to shoot 3's, but the volume and stretch 4's were already in place and that feels D'Antoni inspired with Suns/Marion/Dirk.

GWS's certainly contributed to the recent uptick in pace though.
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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#706 » by Capn'O » Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:47 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
spree2kawhi wrote:
Chanel Bomber wrote:NBA offenses are just much smarter nowadays. Watching tape of the 90s Bulls or the 90s Knicks knowing how the game would evolve really makes you wonder how they would keep up with modern day offenses. There was little to no spacing, players kept running into each other’s space and their shot selection was questionable at best by today’s standards. Phil Jackson thought that giving up open 3s would lead to long rebounds and fastbreak opportunities if I remember correctly. Put the modern day Warriors or Rockets in the 90s (my favorite era btw) and it’s a damn bloodbath in my opinion. The 90s are by far my favorite era btw.

Defenses were tougher back in the day, not better. It’s harder to play defense now because of how NBA offenses have evolved. Defenses are stretched out. Players need to cover more ground. Bigs need to able to protect the rim and switch onto quicker guards and contain them, otherwise they’re leaving 40% 3pt shooters open and then they’re toast. Good offenses mercilessly hunt mismatches. I think defenses are far more versatile now than they were back in the day because of these challenges. In fact, that’s one area where the Bulls were ahead of the curve with MJ, Scottie and Rodman being able to guard multiple positions. The only significant advantage that modern day defenses have is the zone defense which has in large part spelled the end of post-up play. The handchecking rule has made it easier as well but I think its impact is completely overblown and doesn’t affect defenses nearly as much as the rise of 3 point shooting and the improved shot selection league-wide.

This is the best post I've read here in a while.


Handcheck rule, 7 seconds or less Suns and Dirk, who encourages teams to have bigs who can shoot it and it's ok, feel like the big 3 evolutions that happen. I'm not sure the GSW are evolutionary - teams surely became more encouraged to shoot 3's, but the volume and stretch 4's were already in place and that feels D'Antoni inspired with Suns/Marion/Dirk.

GWS's certainly contributed to the recent uptick in pace though.



Yes - the rule changes played a huge part in it.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/10/30/18038802/nba-defense-offensive-boom

he “Seven Seconds or Less” Phoenix Suns are widely credited as the spark of the revolution, but the NBA’s pivot toward a beautiful game was technically birthed by a couple of lines on a brief. Scoring had cratered around the turn of the century, and success was increasingly being dictated by how many bludgeoning 7-foot-1, 325-pound mastodons you had on your team. Ahead of the 2001–02 season, the league pushed back by instituting new rules to open up the floor and promote skill over strength: illegal defense was eliminated, and defensive three seconds was introduced; the time allotted to advance the ball past midcourt was also decreased, from 10 seconds to eight. Three years later, hand-checking and body-checking calls were re-emphasized to further promote freedom of movement.

“The special committee on the rules anticipated when we implemented the package back in 2001 that, fundamentally, it would change the game,” said Stu Jackson, the former NBA executive vice president of basketball operations. “Collectively, all three of those [rules] allowed the game to breathe.”Not everyone was as hopeful;

Pat Riley said at the time that he thought the rule changes would be the death of the game. But the Suns saw an opportunity. In the summer of 2004, ahead of the first season post-hand-checking, Phoenix signed Steve Nash in free agency. Then–Suns owner Jerry Colangelo had led the special committee behind the rule changes, and now his team had the perfect sports bike to weave through the big rigs that were being forced out of the lane.


Throwing in this paragraph for good measure.

“We had a built-in advantage because Jerry Colangelo was the chairman of that board. We knew from the very beginning what was likely to come about. So we were able to plan for longer than everybody else,” said David Griffin, the Suns’ former VP of basketball ops and staffer for nearly two decades. “If you told Daryl Morey right now that three years from now the cap is going to be a number that only he knows, Houston’s going to have a pretty big advantage. We were able to build a team that’s pretty ahead of the curve.”
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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#707 » by BKlutch » Wed Aug 21, 2019 8:22 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
Thugger HBC wrote:
Due to a lack of defense.

Due to people figuring out that 3>2, and that shooting a 60% layup is better than a 45% mid range

You put a team from the 90s in today's league, they're not gonna be nearly as good on defense as they were back then. Sure, team like the Bulls or Knicks would still be good, but they'd still give up well over 100 points a game, especially if they're playing a 90s front court out there

NBA offenses are just much smarter nowadays. Watching tape of the 90s Bulls or the 90s Knicks knowing how the game would evolve really makes you wonder how they would keep up with modern day offenses. There was little to no spacing, players kept running into each other’s space and their shot selection was questionable at best by today’s standards. Phil Jackson thought that giving up open 3s would lead to long rebounds and fastbreak opportunities if I remember correctly. Put the modern day Warriors or Rockets in the 90s (my favorite era btw) and it’s a damn bloodbath in my opinion. The 90s are by far my favorite era btw.

Defenses were tougher back in the day, not better. It’s harder to play defense now because of how NBA offenses have evolved. Defenses are stretched out. Players need to cover more ground. Bigs need to able to protect the rim and switch onto quicker guards and contain them, otherwise they’re leaving 40% 3pt shooters open and then they’re toast. Good offenses mercilessly hunt mismatches. I think defenses are far more versatile now than they were back in the day because of these challenges. In fact, that’s one area where the Bulls were ahead of the curve with MJ, Scottie and Rodman being able to guard multiple positions. The only significant advantage that modern day defenses have is the zone defense which has in large part spelled the end of post-up play. The handchecking rule has made it easier as well but I think its impact is completely overblown and doesn’t affect defenses nearly as much as the rise of 3 point shooting and the improved shot selection league-wide.

The championship Knicks teams played strong man to man and team defense. Hand checking was allowed, of course. On offense, the Knicks did well because they had ball movement that rivalled the best there has been in the last 10 years. Each player knew his role, where he could hit his shots, and very few shots were ever taken outside of their comfort zone. There was even one big, Jerry Lucas, who hit very long jumpers that would now be 3's. They were widely credited as having won because of their intelligence as individuals and as a team. Each offensive player knew the defensive capabilities of his opponent, and every defender knew the offensive skill of his opponent. At least 4 starters were capable of 20 point games, as they were good shooters but, more importantly, they took smart shots.

I'm sure the athleticism was less and training wasn't as advanced, but basketball was exciting. How did the Knicks win? Other teams hated playing them because they often scored well under their averages due to smothering defense. So Knicks games were usually lower scoring than those of other teams, and you could predict the winner of most games. High scoring game = loss, low scoring game = win.
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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#708 » by BKlutch » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:06 pm

.

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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#709 » by NYKHardKnock » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:57 pm

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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#710 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:03 am

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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#711 » by Juco24 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:16 am

NYKHardKnock wrote:
We officially lost this trade. :banghead:

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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#712 » by Juco24 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:17 am

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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#713 » by malik959 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:25 am

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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#714 » by iLLmatic860 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:27 am

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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#715 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:34 am

Sorry guys,

but I have to put these inside a spoiler since it is confidential material that was leaked to me by one of KP's inner circle

Exclusive sneak peek at KP's off-season workout regimen:

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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#716 » by Adelheid » Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:35 am

When somebody said "Beast mode", I was expecting KP with fuller quads and legs...Then i saw nothing but toes.
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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#717 » by BKlutch » Thu Aug 22, 2019 1:06 am

.

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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#718 » by Slicin N Dicin » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:48 am

Thread got locked - but this schmuck really said I post a lot when I posted a couple of times in a 15 minute span today and then 7 hours later am just posting again now. Does this guy not see my post count vs date joined.

Just tried to get cute with a meme.

Sorry for derailing a bit but I had to address that fuqery
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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#719 » by Fat Kat » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:52 am

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Re: Around the Offseason, Take 2 

Post#720 » by Clyde_Style » Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:55 am

Slicin N Dicin wrote:Thread got locked - but this schmuck really said I post a lot when I posted a couple of times in a 15 minute span today and then 7 hours later am just posting again now. Does this guy not see my post count vs date joined.

Just tried to get cute with a meme.

Sorry for derailing a bit but I had to address that fuqery


You've got an issue, then address me directly.

I debated you earlier and went out of my way to be polite. If you can't handle yourself in debate without falling apart, then take it somewhere else. I answered you precisely and I was the one who kept our exchange on an even keel so pull yourself together.

You're the one who tried to derail earlier and basically flamed me and I still dealt with you without malice so don't go starting battles now.

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