The Next Official All things Frank Ntilikina Thread

[HarthorneWingo]

it's unbelievable how big a topic this remains. he's just not that important for this to be such an issue. on either side of the debate. on the chart of who needs to progress for the knicks to become good, frank is way down on the list. his future is role player at best, less than that at worst.

A lot of people here are so caught up in the ideal vision of Ntilikina they don’t see the reality.

But you guys are rushing to judgment. (You know I love you Mace ... shammgod ... meh )

[MaseInYourFace]

People who dislike Frank ànd want to dismiss him are also the same who are saying the Knicks should have all stars at all 5 positions.

There is a clear misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of basketball if you hate Frank, or want him gone.

He's defense first, and has incredibly high IQ. Which says he doesn't need the ball to be effective. You can't have all stars, all of whom need the ball, at all 5 positions.

That's why you need guys like Frank, gobert, Tony Allen, rip Hamilton, etc.

I just don't understand how people don't know basic basketball.

Of course it'd be great if Frank would improve his shot. And if he doesn't improve it, he needs less minutes.

But to want him off the team doesn't make sense, at all.

Well that is the thing

In today's league, if you're a defensive specialist, unless you play C, you have to be able to shoot.

That's why a guy like Danny Green is so much more valuable than Andre Roberson, cause while Green can't hold a candle to Roberson defensively, he's still very good, and he's a threat to score if you leave him alone

What gives me hope about his shot is, overall it's been bad, but if you look at month by month data, he's pretty good most of the time, it's just not consistent over a whole year. Most months he shoots in the mid to high 30s from 3, but then he'll have a month like last November where he shoots 18%, which tanks his average for the year. Outside of that one month, he was a 36% shooter last year

It's just a consistency thing with him, which makes sense cause that's what all young guys struggle with. There's also the issue of, if we do want to keep him, he has a near $20 million cap hold in the summer of 21, same with DSJ, which takes up a whole max slot between the two of them. Plus, I think we're gonna pick top 8 again this year, in a class with a bunch of guards/wings, who will probably be more talented than Frank. I love the kid, but I really don't think it's practical to expect us to keep him at this point, unless he really shows out this year.

you're right about green being more valuable than roberson.

but roberson is so good at defense, and so important to the success that OKC had (before he got hurt), that they kept playing him 26-30 mpg, despite being the absolute worst shooter, for anyone under 7 foot, in the NBA.

i'm not saying frank is AS good as roberson on defense. but frank makes up for it, on offense, with his high IQ. he is a step behind, but at 21 years old, he has room to grow.

correct, he does have only a month or two where he sucks ass at 3s, which brings his overall 3PT shooting percentage down.


i see it as the opposite. i see absolutely no reason to get rid of him - unless he keeps getting hurt, and shows no desire to be on the floor. not everyone needs to be westbrook level of emotions, as that'd actually be bad, but frank makes up for his deficiencies in other ways. you want to keep guys like that around.

plus, having a better team around him, especially someone with low post scoring ability, and a PG that can actually run an offense (payton) will help someone like frank.

Keep in mind Roberson played on a team with PG, Westbrook, and Melo.

[god shammgod]

People who dislike Frank ànd want to dismiss him are also the same who are saying the Knicks should have all stars at all 5 positions.

There is a clear misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of basketball if you hate Frank, or want him gone.

He's defense first, and has incredibly high IQ. Which says he doesn't need the ball to be effective. You can't have all stars, all of whom need the ball, at all 5 positions.

That's why you need guys like Frank, gobert, Tony Allen, rip Hamilton, etc.

I just don't understand how people don't know basic basketball.

Of course it'd be great if Frank would improve his shot. And if he doesn't improve it, he needs less minutes.

But to want him off the team doesn't make sense, at all.

Well that is the thing

In today's league, if you're a defensive specialist, unless you play C, you have to be able to shoot.

That's why a guy like Danny Green is so much more valuable than Andre Roberson, cause while Green can't hold a candle to Roberson defensively, he's still very good, and he's a threat to score if you leave him alone

What gives me hope about his shot is, overall it's been bad, but if you look at month by month data, he's pretty good most of the time, it's just not consistent over a whole year. Most months he shoots in the mid to high 30s from 3, but then he'll have a month like last November where he shoots 18%, which tanks his average for the year. Outside of that one month, he was a 36% shooter last year

It's just a consistency thing with him, which makes sense cause that's what all young guys struggle with. There's also the issue of, if we do want to keep him, he has a near $20 million cap hold in the summer of 21, same with DSJ, which takes up a whole max slot between the two of them. Plus, I think we're gonna pick top 8 again this year, in a class with a bunch of guards/wings, who will probably be more talented than Frank. I love the kid, but I really don't think it's practical to expect us to keep him at this point, unless he really shows out this year.

What’s the cheapest we can keep him at realistically? Let’s say he only improves a little and teams aren’t that interested.

to me it's a timing thing more than cost. his contract is up the same year we're planning on being players in free agency and he'll have a cap hold. even on a real cheap deal we may not retain him to keep that space open. from how they use him, the minutes he gets, the trade rumors, it doesn't seem likely he'll be a knick past his rookie contract.

[MaseInYourFace]

Nonsense. If Frank becomes a quality role player on this team, earns himself a contract extension and a legit spot in the rotation, then by definition he is an important topic in Knicks land.

There's a thread here where people respond to each other only in GIFs. I think there's plenty room for a healthy discussion about Frank Ntilikina, our lotto pick from just 2 seasons ago.

Please, will you allow it?

i'm not allowing it or not. i'm just amazed that frank is still discussed as if he's the biggest issue on the team. because he's not close to that. but you wouldn't know that from the amount of discussion he produces. we're not constantly debating other players in this manner. for whatever reason, this is the most polarizing topic on here.

Think a lot of it is, with Frank you can clearly say we missed on Mitchell. Knox has that same quality of, he sucks hard but has potential, but there wasn't a clear star taken after him. Even SGA, who I think most of us would take in a redraft, isn't seen as that big of a miss. And with RJ, as far as we know he was BPA, and there's no controversy yet. Guys like Mitchell, Trier, and Dot all overperformed draft expectations, and DSJ was a trade and the best package we could get for KP (as far as we know), so there's not much to talk about there. So there's a lot more feeling of regret of drafting Frank and not them guys, at least not yet

And everyone else is an expiring contract or Julius Randle. We're just bored and there's not much to talk about

It’s more to it than that. Some people are obsessed with Frank. There are more than a few that’s all they talk about here.

[MaseInYourFace]

Nonsense. If Frank becomes a quality role player on this team, earns himself a contract extension and a legit spot in the rotation, then by definition he is an important topic in Knicks land.

There's a thread here where people respond to each other only in GIFs. I think there's plenty room for a healthy discussion about Frank Ntilikina, our lotto pick from just 2 seasons ago.

Please, will you allow it?

i'm not allowing it or not. i'm just amazed that frank is still discussed as if he's the biggest issue on the team. because he's not close to that. but you wouldn't know that from the amount of discussion he produces. we're not constantly debating other players in this manner. for whatever reason, this is the most polarizing topic on here.

Makes sense to me. He's a lotto pick who hasn't turned into Jordan yet.

We did it with Gallo and KP. Already patience is thin for Knox. And RJ will get it too if he doesn't win MVP this year.

This would happen on every team when the rookie contract is up.

[MaseInYourFace]

it's unbelievable how big a topic this remains. he's just not that important for this to be such an issue. on either side of the debate. on the chart of who needs to progress for the knicks to become good, frank is way down on the list. his future is role player at best, less than that at worst.

A lot of people here are so caught up in the ideal vision of Ntilikina they don’t see the reality.

But you guys are rushing to judgment. (You know I love you Mace ... shammgod ... meh )

Not at all. There is no rush but he just hasn’t been very good so far and I don’t sugar-coat it.

[DOT]

People who dislike Frank ànd want to dismiss him are also the same who are saying the Knicks should have all stars at all 5 positions.

There is a clear misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of basketball if you hate Frank, or want him gone.

He's defense first, and has incredibly high IQ. Which says he doesn't need the ball to be effective. You can't have all stars, all of whom need the ball, at all 5 positions.

That's why you need guys like Frank, gobert, Tony Allen, rip Hamilton, etc.

I just don't understand how people don't know basic basketball.

Of course it'd be great if Frank would improve his shot. And if he doesn't improve it, he needs less minutes.

But to want him off the team doesn't make sense, at all.

Well that is the thing

In today's league, if you're a defensive specialist, unless you play C, you have to be able to shoot.

That's why a guy like Danny Green is so much more valuable than Andre Roberson, cause while Green can't hold a candle to Roberson defensively, he's still very good, and he's a threat to score if you leave him alone

What gives me hope about his shot is, overall it's been bad, but if you look at month by month data, he's pretty good most of the time, it's just not consistent over a whole year. Most months he shoots in the mid to high 30s from 3, but then he'll have a month like last November where he shoots 18%, which tanks his average for the year. Outside of that one month, he was a 36% shooter last year

It's just a consistency thing with him, which makes sense cause that's what all young guys struggle with. There's also the issue of, if we do want to keep him, he has a near $20 million cap hold in the summer of 21, same with DSJ, which takes up a whole max slot between the two of them. Plus, I think we're gonna pick top 8 again this year, in a class with a bunch of guards/wings, who will probably be more talented than Frank. I love the kid, but I really don't think it's practical to expect us to keep him at this point, unless he really shows out this year.

What’s the cheapest we can keep him at realistically? Let’s say he only improves a little and teams aren’t that interested.

I honestly have no idea

That's just the market. Someone might be willing to overpay him based off youth, or he might get no offers at all.

If he only improves a little and you want to keep him, I guess you bring him back on a 1 year deal for less than 5 mil, but if he hasn't improved enough by year 4 I don't why you'd give him a multi-year contract. That's just bad business, you probably only give him a 1 year like Vonleh or Mario

[br7knicks]

Well that is the thing

In today's league, if you're a defensive specialist, unless you play C, you have to be able to shoot.

That's why a guy like Danny Green is so much more valuable than Andre Roberson, cause while Green can't hold a candle to Roberson defensively, he's still very good, and he's a threat to score if you leave him alone

What gives me hope about his shot is, overall it's been bad, but if you look at month by month data, he's pretty good most of the time, it's just not consistent over a whole year. Most months he shoots in the mid to high 30s from 3, but then he'll have a month like last November where he shoots 18%, which tanks his average for the year. Outside of that one month, he was a 36% shooter last year

It's just a consistency thing with him, which makes sense cause that's what all young guys struggle with. There's also the issue of, if we do want to keep him, he has a near $20 million cap hold in the summer of 21, same with DSJ, which takes up a whole max slot between the two of them. Plus, I think we're gonna pick top 8 again this year, in a class with a bunch of guards/wings, who will probably be more talented than Frank. I love the kid, but I really don't think it's practical to expect us to keep him at this point, unless he really shows out this year.

you're right about green being more valuable than roberson.

but roberson is so good at defense, and so important to the success that OKC had (before he got hurt), that they kept playing him 26-30 mpg, despite being the absolute worst shooter, for anyone under 7 foot, in the NBA.

i'm not saying frank is AS good as roberson on defense. but frank makes up for it, on offense, with his high IQ. he is a step behind, but at 21 years old, he has room to grow.

correct, he does have only a month or two where he sucks ass at 3s, which brings his overall 3PT shooting percentage down.


i see it as the opposite. i see absolutely no reason to get rid of him - unless he keeps getting hurt, and shows no desire to be on the floor. not everyone needs to be westbrook level of emotions, as that'd actually be bad, but frank makes up for his deficiencies in other ways. you want to keep guys like that around.

plus, having a better team around him, especially someone with low post scoring ability, and a PG that can actually run an offense (payton) will help someone like frank.

Keep in mind Roberson played on a team with PG, Westbrook, and Melo.

correct. so hopefully the likes of RJ, randle, and to a lesser extent, dsjr and knox can develop into other scoring options as well. i'd like to see development out of the young guys, particularly frank.

my point is that you need guys like frank, as they don't need the ball (like roberson on okc). plus, offensively, frank is better than roberson, 10 fold, because frank is someone defenses to respect, from 3PT, more than roberson, and frank's offensive IQ is a lot higher than roberson

[Garbagelo]

Knicks haven't had a needle moving 2 way player like Frank in years

That is why the fans are constantly bickering among themselves, because they are frustrated because they don't know how to react

It's like a pre pubescent girl having their first period

It's funny that people forget that a player judged by individual talent is not necessarily the true value that they actually bring to the floor

[MaseInYourFace]

you're right about green being more valuable than roberson.

but roberson is so good at defense, and so important to the success that OKC had (before he got hurt), that they kept playing him 26-30 mpg, despite being the absolute worst shooter, for anyone under 7 foot, in the NBA.

i'm not saying frank is AS good as roberson on defense. but frank makes up for it, on offense, with his high IQ. he is a step behind, but at 21 years old, he has room to grow.

correct, he does have only a month or two where he sucks ass at 3s, which brings his overall 3PT shooting percentage down.


i see it as the opposite. i see absolutely no reason to get rid of him - unless he keeps getting hurt, and shows no desire to be on the floor. not everyone needs to be westbrook level of emotions, as that'd actually be bad, but frank makes up for his deficiencies in other ways. you want to keep guys like that around.

plus, having a better team around him, especially someone with low post scoring ability, and a PG that can actually run an offense (payton) will help someone like frank.

Keep in mind Roberson played on a team with PG, Westbrook, and Melo.

correct. so hopefully the likes of RJ, randle, and to a lesser extent, dsjr and knox can develop into other scoring options as well. i'd like to see development out of the young guys, particularly frank.

my point is that you need guys like frank, as they don't need the ball (like roberson on okc). plus, offensively, frank is better than roberson, 10 fold, because frank is someone defenses to respect, from 3PT, more than roberson, and frank's offensive IQ is a lot higher than roberson

Roberson could do that because that was a much better offensive team than the Knicks and he did it while playing DPOY level defense. It’s not really a model Ntilikina should try to follow IMO.

[MaseInYourFace]

Knicks haven't had a needle moving 2 way player like Frank in years

That is why the fans are constantly bickering among themselves, because they are frustrated because they don't know how to react

It's like a pre pubescent girl having their first period

It's funny that people forget that a player judged by individual talent is not necessarily the true value that they actually bring to the floor

Frank has that potential. He can be an impactful defender right now but right now right this moment he is not a “needle moving two way player”

[Jalen Bluntson]

Frank will be a gawd and all of you will like it!!!

[BBALLER4FR]

Nonsense. If Frank becomes a quality role player on this team, earns himself a contract extension and a legit spot in the rotation, then by definition he is an important topic in Knicks land.

There's a thread here where people respond to each other only in GIFs. I think there's plenty room for a healthy discussion about Frank Ntilikina, our lotto pick from just 2 seasons ago.

Please, will you allow it?

i'm not allowing it or not. i'm just amazed that frank is still discussed as if he's the biggest issue on the team. because he's not close to that. but you wouldn't know that from the amount of discussion he produces. we're not constantly debating other players in this manner. for whatever reason, this is the most polarizing topic on here.

Makes sense to me. He's a lotto pick who hasn't turned into Jordan yet.

Are you seriously saying people are upset because he hasn't lived up to Jordan? Such disingenuous arguments made.

We did it with Gallo and KP. Already patience is thin for Knox. And RJ will get it too if he doesn't win MVP this year.

Gallo - Much better than Frank and people LOVED HIM. Traded for a superstar (which Melo was at the time) and only then were allegiances forged. Hasn't been special his entire career. No loss

KP - Infinitely better than Frank. Everyone loved him but had reason for concern because of his/Janis' attitude, you'd agree?

Knox - Knox has already outplayed Frank's rookie year. No one is losing patience with him just as no one lost patience with rookie Frank. People want to see better defense and a better motor from him. He has just as much an opportunity as Frank AND I'd bet actual dollars there'd be a pretty good market out there should we try to move in a different direction. Cannot say that about Frank so it's not just certain Knicks fans who see little value in Frank's game, it's basketball fans.

Frank's problem is he's regressed and shows no signs of coming out of it while the team has improved everywhere. He had 2 years to prove he'd make a spot on this team and instead he felt his game was nuanced enough that someone would find value in his calculated, slow moving game. He felt comfortable watching other PG's come in and show him up. He doesn't want it. Even his interviews look like he's stuck in headlights. I like the kid but this ain't his stage.

[br7knicks]

Keep in mind Roberson played on a team with PG, Westbrook, and Melo.

correct. so hopefully the likes of RJ, randle, and to a lesser extent, dsjr and knox can develop into other scoring options as well. i'd like to see development out of the young guys, particularly frank.

my point is that you need guys like frank, as they don't need the ball (like roberson on okc). plus, offensively, frank is better than roberson, 10 fold, because frank is someone defenses to respect, from 3PT, more than roberson, and frank's offensive IQ is a lot higher than roberson

Roberson could do that because that was a much better offensive team than the Knicks and he did it while playing DPOY level defense. It’s not really a model Ntilikina should try to follow IMO.

I agree, he shouldn't. Again, my point was that a team needs guys who don't need the ball.

Frank does need work, but he's 21. Knicks shouldn't offer him a great contract until he earns it, tho.

If he shows development, then he's absolutely worth keeping

[HarthorneWingo]

A lot of people here are so caught up in the ideal vision of Ntilikina they don’t see the reality.

But you guys are rushing to judgment. (You know I love you Mace ... shammgod ... meh )

Not at all. There is no rush but he just hasn’t been very good so far and I don’t sugar-coat it.

But he's only 21 and really hasn't been given much of a chance. He's had a separate coaching staff and front office in each of his two years in the league. Fizdale was all over the place last season without a plan or, maybe, a bad plan (Mudiay?). It just sounds like you made your mind up about him without giving him a chance to develop.

[MaseInYourFace]

But you guys are rushing to judgment. (You know I love you Mace ... shammgod ... meh )

Not at all. There is no rush but he just hasn’t been very good so far and I don’t sugar-coat it.

But he's only 21 and really hasn't been given much of a chance. He's had two separate coaching staff and front office in each of his two years in the league. Fizdale was all over the place last season without a plan or, maybe, a bad plan (Mudiay?). It just sounds like you made your mind up about him.

I disagree he hasn’t been given a chance. I’ve seen him play quite a bit and don’t see a big ceiling there. He could be a good role player hopefully though.

[thebuzzardman]

i'm not allowing it or not. i'm just amazed that frank is still discussed as if he's the biggest issue on the team. because he's not close to that. but you wouldn't know that from the amount of discussion he produces. we're not constantly debating other players in this manner. for whatever reason, this is the most polarizing topic on here.

Makes sense to me. He's a lotto pick who hasn't turned into Jordan yet.

Are you seriously saying people are upset because he hasn't lived up to Jordan? Such disingenuous arguments made.

We did it with Gallo and KP. Already patience is thin for Knox. And RJ will get it too if he doesn't win MVP this year.

Gallo - Much better than Frank and people LOVED HIM. Traded for a superstar (which Melo was at the time) and only then were allegiances forged. Hasn't been special his entire career. No loss

KP - Infinitely better than Frank. Everyone loved him but had reason for concern because of his/Janis' attitude, you'd agree?

Knox - Knox has already outplayed Frank's rookie year. No one is losing patience with him just as no one lost patience with rookie Frank. People want to see better defense and a better motor from him. He has just as much an opportunity as Frank AND I'd bet actual dollars there'd be a pretty good market out there should we try to move in a different direction. Cannot say that about Frank so it's not just certain Knicks fans who see little value in Frank's game, it's basketball fans.

Frank's problem is he's regressed and shows no signs of coming out of it while the team has improved everywhere. He had 2 years to prove he'd make a spot on this team and instead he felt his game was nuanced enough that someone would find value in his calculated, slow moving game. He felt comfortable watching other PG's come in and show him up. He doesn't want it. Even his interviews look like he's stuck in headlights. I like the kid but this ain't his stage.

No one lost patience with rookie Frank? LMAO. He was getting BURIED on here before his rookie year was over.

[moocow007]

Knicks haven't had a needle moving 2 way player like Frank in years

That is why the fans are constantly bickering among themselves, because they are frustrated because they don't know how to react

It's like a pre pubescent girl having their first period

It's funny that people forget that a player judged by individual talent is not necessarily the true value that they actually bring to the floor

Oh come on, Frank is not a needle moving 2-way player. That's an insult to needle moving 2-way players everywhere.

Just the statement of him being a 2-way player (forget about a needle moving one) is outlandish since you can't be a 2-way player if you can't do a thing on offense. He can't shoot and can't create anything off the dribble.

And being the best defender 2 years ago on a God awful defensive team doesn't make him a shutdown defender that some people seemed to have convinced themselves he is. It just makes him a good defender on a team with awful defenders.

It's funny you're trying to defend him by saying you basically don't need a lot of talent to make an impact. Sure you do. Especially if you want to be a 2-way player that can move needles in the NBA.

If he was a needle moving 2-way player he'd either have already cemented his place in the starting rotation OR already have been traded for a first round pick this past draft. Neither has happened cause he's not a needle moving 2-way player. What he is is a young player that has shown he can defend but have not shown the ability to score at the NBA level.

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[moocow007]

Knicks haven't had a needle moving 2 way player like Frank in years

That is why the fans are constantly bickering among themselves, because they are frustrated because they don't know how to react

It's like a pre pubescent girl having their first period

It's funny that people forget that a player judged by individual talent is not necessarily the true value that they actually bring to the floor

Frank has that potential. He can be an impactful defender right now but right now right this moment he is not a “needle moving two way player”

Exactly. Right now he's a young defensive player that hasn't shown much of anything on the offensive end.

Sent from my SM-N960U using RealGM mobile app

[iLLmatic860]

Frank Ntilikina got a bigger fanbase than Rj Barrett on real gm