OT: The Official COVID/Omicron Variant+ thread

[Clyde_Style]

Moose, I will respond when I have more time later, but know that I did not call you a Trumper. I did say the GOP has degenerated into a power hungry anti-democratic party that cherry picks what to be outraged by in the name of freedom while ignoring the inherent hypocrisies they generate at every turn. New in-depth polling shows two-thirds of the GOP still supports whatever Trump backed even if only half of them want him to run again. IOW, the base is partly MAGA and partly long-time Republicans and as a whole they degrade any conversation about personal freedoms. If you felt lumped in with that description there’s nothing I can do, but generally speaking supporting the GOP now is anti-freedom by definition and morally inconsistent by design.

[HarthorneWingo]

Haha

Watch on YouTube

I thought the above video was just political comedy but now check this woman out:

Read on Twitter

?s=21

[Zenzibar]

BTW, my thought process wasn't random but based on facts such as the following by Penn Medicine News.

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2021/august/penn-study-details-robust-tcell-response-to-mrna-covid19-vaccines

In the group of participants who did not previously have COVID-19, they found that the first vaccine dose elicited a rapid and strong response from helper T cells called CD4 T cells—some of which help marshal an antibody response, while others stimulate the proliferation of CD8 killer T cells. The strengths of those initial CD4 T cell responses generally predicted the later strengths of antibody and killer T-cell responses. However, the killer T cells tended not to appear in large numbers until after the second vaccine dose—confirming the importance of that second dose for people with no COVID-19 history.

By contrast, in the prior-COVID-19 group, helper and killer T cells specific for the COVID-19 coronavirus were already substantially present before the first dose. After that first dose, T cell numbers rose somewhat, but did not significantly increase after the second dose.


You'll in likelihood call these medical findings non-sense and site your own "legitimate" sources. But for a parent whose kid may have already had covid, it complicates the decision. Show some open-mindedness old chap, you might still learn something new.
Remember, Every day is a schol day.

Well, the authors are claiming that the T-cell response should be considered, they aren't saying it's the only thing that needs to be considered. Clearly antibodies are important as well.
They also suggest that part of the immune response *should* be long-lasting, which would be good news, if confirmed.
The overall immunity to viruses is known to wane somewhat with time, I don't see why this one would be any different, and that's not what the article is claiming.

As for kids, I'd get mine vaxxed, if she was eligible (not soon tho, cus she just had covid). Doesn't cost me anything out of pocket, and the risks are minuscule. That could potentially prevent her from infecting someone more vulnerable. I don't know that mandating that 5 year olds get vaxxed would necessarily be good policy at this point though. It seems to me that there are other, more effective levers to pull to keep the pandemic under control.

Yeah. The study is basically confirmation that healthy individuals who contract covid, can theoretically has as much immunity as a healthy vaccinated person.

If this can be confirmed by other research, it would be great, as a big portion of our population has had to have been exposed. This will help put the pandemic under control as you said.

Whether vaxxed or un-vaxxed but with built up immunity, would pretty much equate to the same outcome. My curiosity would be, which of the 2, vaxxed or un-vaxx (but with immunity), would be the longer lasting.

Either way, this bodes well for kids like your daughter and my niece, who have recovered nicely and now have anti-bodies.

[Zenzibar]

So someone who smokes for 40 years or eats themselves to the point they define greed and gluttony isn't "through no choice of their own" if they get lung cancer or diabetes or heart disease?

And what about excessive drug use? If on one of our wild nights, if there was an accidental overdose, is that through no fault of our own?

Or maybe the hospital shouldn't waste its resources on a junkie?

Or someone has unprotected sex and gets HIV. Let em die for their poor decision?

There are some who think the certain things I listed above to be morally wrong. Maybe we should just let people die or shun them or look down on them or punish them simply because they don't do what we think is right.

Also, the people you are hurting the most in this anti vax punishment scenario: https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-by-race-ethnicity/

On a side note, the common reply will be "well those decisions don't hurt the health of others", but plenty of decisions people make every day hurt others, society, or the planet. Even abortion is killing off a life, but we allow for it to happen.

And just to be clear, I'm vaxxed, I think people should get vaxxed, and I'm also pro choice.

But can you identify another public health crisis that overwhelmed the health care system prior to this pandemic resulting in people being denied treatment?

We both know the answer to that

Access is the pressing issue now, not the cost to the health care system (and all of us) due to other people’s lifestyle choices like smoking or eating big macs.

If there were not so many instances of hospitals overflowing with covid patients in beds in the hallways causing people with life threatening emergencies to be turned away, then we could have a reasonable discussion about the health care system’s flaws and its funding. But that is NOT the issue right now.

I'm not really responding to anymore of the posts, it takes a lot of time and I don't have all the answers anyway. But here's something from 1988 I thought was interesting:

https://www.villagevoice.com/2020/05/28/an-open-letter-to-dr-anthony-fauci/

Where is the report that confirms that our health system is currently over-whelmed?
It is my understanding that now personal doctors are determining if their patients are healthy enough to weather the storm at home, before considering coming into the hospitals.

[Moose]

Moose, I will respond when I have more time later, but know that I did not call you a Trumper. I did say the GOP has degenerated into a power hungry anti-democratic party that cherry picks what to be outraged by in the name of freedom while ignoring the inherent hypocrisies they generate at every turn. New in-depth polling shows two-thirds of the GOP still supports whatever Trump backed even if only half of them want him to run again. IOW, the base is partly MAGA and partly long-time Republicans and as a whole they degrade any conversation about personal freedoms. If you felt lumped in with that description there’s nothing I can do, but generally speaking supporting the GOP now is anti-freedom by definition and morally inconsistent by design.

All good. You didn't make me feel that way. I was speaking in a generality. It's a perception and doesn't necessarily make it a reality.

[HarthorneWingo]

But can you identify another public health crisis that overwhelmed the health care system prior to this pandemic resulting in people being denied treatment?

We both know the answer to that

Access is the pressing issue now, not the cost to the health care system (and all of us) due to other people’s lifestyle choices like smoking or eating big macs.

If there were not so many instances of hospitals overflowing with covid patients in beds in the hallways causing people with life threatening emergencies to be turned away, then we could have a reasonable discussion about the health care system’s flaws and its funding. But that is NOT the issue right now.

I'm not really responding to anymore of the posts, it takes a lot of time and I don't have all the answers anyway. But here's something from 1988 I thought was interesting:

https://www.villagevoice.com/2020/05/28/an-open-letter-to-dr-anthony-fauci/

Where is the report that confirms that our health system is currently over-whelmed?
It is my understanding that now personal doctors are determining if their patients are healthy enough to weather the storm at home, before considering coming into the hospitals.

There was that guy whose wife was suffering from cancer who couldn't get a hospital room where they lived because the it was filled up with unvaccinated COVID patients. I'm not sure of the frequency of this kind of situation. I do think it's more in the midwest and southern states.

[BKlutch]

Haha

Watch on YouTube

Maybe you laughed at that video, but you shouldn't have.

Just as soon as it went online, Fox called her up offering a news anchor job.

[BKlutch]

BTW, my thought process wasn't random but based on facts such as the following by Penn Medicine News.

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-releases/2021/august/penn-study-details-robust-tcell-response-to-mrna-covid19-vaccines

In the group of participants who did not previously have COVID-19, they found that the first vaccine dose elicited a rapid and strong response from helper T cells called CD4 T cells—some of which help marshal an antibody response, while others stimulate the proliferation of CD8 killer T cells. The strengths of those initial CD4 T cell responses generally predicted the later strengths of antibody and killer T-cell responses. However, the killer T cells tended not to appear in large numbers until after the second vaccine dose—confirming the importance of that second dose for people with no COVID-19 history.

By contrast, in the prior-COVID-19 group, helper and killer T cells specific for the COVID-19 coronavirus were already substantially present before the first dose. After that first dose, T cell numbers rose somewhat, but did not significantly increase after the second dose.


You'll in likelihood call these medical findings non-sense and site your own "legitimate" sources. But for a parent whose kid may have already had covid, it complicates the decision. Show some open-mindedness old chap, you might still learn something new.
Remember, Every day is a schol day.

Well, the authors are claiming that the T-cell response should be considered, they aren't saying it's the only thing that needs to be considered. Clearly antibodies are important as well.
They also suggest that part of the immune response *should* be long-lasting, which would be good news, if confirmed.
The overall immunity to viruses is known to wane somewhat with time, I don't see why this one would be any different, and that's not what the article is claiming.

As for kids, I'd get mine vaxxed, if she was eligible (not soon tho, cus she just had covid). Doesn't cost me anything out of pocket, and the risks are minuscule. That could potentially prevent her from infecting someone more vulnerable. I don't know that mandating that 5 year olds get vaxxed would necessarily be good policy at this point though. It seems to me that there are other, more effective levers to pull to keep the pandemic under control.

Yeah. The study is basically confirmation that healthy individuals who contract covid, can theoretically has as much immunity as a healthy vaccinated person.

If this can be confirmed by other research, it would be great, as a big portion of our population has had to have been exposed. This will help put the pandemic under control as you said.

Whether vaxxed or un-vaxxed but with built up immunity, would pretty much equate to the same outcome. My curiosity would be, which of the 2, vaxxed or un-vaxx (but with immunity), would be the longer lasting.

Either way, this bodes well for kids like your daughter and my niece, who have recovered nicely and now have anti-bodies.

No, your antibodies are NOT better than vaccination.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/

[Zenzibar]

Well, the authors are claiming that the T-cell response should be considered, they aren't saying it's the only thing that needs to be considered. Clearly antibodies are important as well.
They also suggest that part of the immune response *should* be long-lasting, which would be good news, if confirmed.
The overall immunity to viruses is known to wane somewhat with time, I don't see why this one would be any different, and that's not what the article is claiming.

As for kids, I'd get mine vaxxed, if she was eligible (not soon tho, cus she just had covid). Doesn't cost me anything out of pocket, and the risks are minuscule. That could potentially prevent her from infecting someone more vulnerable. I don't know that mandating that 5 year olds get vaxxed would necessarily be good policy at this point though. It seems to me that there are other, more effective levers to pull to keep the pandemic under control.

Yeah. The study is basically confirmation that healthy individuals who contract covid, can theoretically has as much immunity as a healthy vaccinated person.

If this can be confirmed by other research, it would be great, as a big portion of our population has had to have been exposed. This will help put the pandemic under control as you said.

Whether vaxxed or un-vaxxed but with built up immunity, would pretty much equate to the same outcome. My curiosity would be, which of the 2, vaxxed or un-vaxx (but with immunity), would be the longer lasting.

Either way, this bodes well for kids like your daughter and my niece, who have recovered nicely and now have anti-bodies.

No, your antibodies are NOT better than vaccination.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/

We both quoted 1 study, what makes this one absolute?

[Zenzibar]

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/sweden-denmark-pause-moderna-covid-vaccine-myocarditis/

Sweden, Denmark Pause Moderna’s COVID Vaccine for Younger Age Groups Citing Reports of Myocarditis

Sweden and Denmark on Wednesday said they will pause the use of Moderna’s COVID vaccine for younger age groups after reports of possible rare side effects, including myocarditis.

The Swedish health agency said it would pause the vaccine for people born in 1991 and later, as data pointed to an increase of myocarditis and pericarditis among youths and young adults who had been vaccinated, Reuters reported.

“The connection is especially clear when it comes to Moderna’s vaccine, ‘Spikevax,’ especially after the second dose,” the health agency said in a statement.

The health agency said it now recommends Pfizer/BioNTech’s Comirnaty vaccine instead. People born 1991 or later who received a first Moderna dose — approximately 81,000 people — will not get a second Moderna jab.

Earlier this week, the Swedish health agency said 12- to 15-year-olds would only get Pfizer’s COVID vaccine.

[Zenzibar]

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/mary-polly-pfizer-billion-revenues-booster-shots/

‘This Week’ With Mary + Polly: Pfizer Eyes $26 Billion in Revenues From Booster Shots + More

Read on Twitter

[BKlutch]

Yeah. The study is basically confirmation that healthy individuals who contract covid, can theoretically has as much immunity as a healthy vaccinated person.

If this can be confirmed by other research, it would be great, as a big portion of our population has had to have been exposed. This will help put the pandemic under control as you said.

Whether vaxxed or un-vaxxed but with built up immunity, would pretty much equate to the same outcome. My curiosity would be, which of the 2, vaxxed or un-vaxx (but with immunity), would be the longer lasting.

Either way, this bodes well for kids like your daughter and my niece, who have recovered nicely and now have anti-bodies.

No, your antibodies are NOT better than vaccination.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/

We both quoted 1 study, what makes this one absolute?

Zbar, you're obviously trying not to be intellectually honest but to use outliers to promote a discredited point of view. You constantly cherry pick and then complain when I only show one study, as did you. But the knowledge that antibodies following infection don't last long is not something new. Get an education, or get honest, and then I'll talk with you again. Until then, I have no further interest in interacting with you. C'ya.

[Zenzibar]

No, your antibodies are NOT better than vaccination.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/

We both quoted 1 study, what makes this one absolute?

Zbar, you're obviously trying not to be intellectually honest but to use outliers to promote a discredited point of view. You constantly cherry pick and then complain when I only show one study, as did you. But the knowledge that antibodies following infection don't last long is not something new. Get an education, or get honest, and then I'll talk with you again. Until then, I have no further interest in interacting with you. C'ya.

In all honesty virology is not my strong suit....isn't it obvious?

But what is a strong suit is that I have always question: my parents, my teachers, religion, politics, history. This includes big Pharma etc.

In my life-time what I've encountered is that most, not all, most folk hate to have their views questioned and prefer to cut off communication. SO no problem Bro, you're not the 1st or last. Have a nice Sunday.

[Clyde_Style]

We both quoted 1 study, what makes this one absolute?

Zbar, you're obviously trying not to be intellectually honest but to use outliers to promote a discredited point of view. You constantly cherry pick and then complain when I only show one study, as did you. But the knowledge that antibodies following infection don't last long is not something new. Get an education, or get honest, and then I'll talk with you again. Until then, I have no further interest in interacting with you. C'ya.

In all honesty virology is not my strong suit....isn't it obvious?

But what is a strong suit is that I have always question: my parents, my teachers, religion, politics, history. This includes big Pharma etc.

In my life-time what I've encountered is that most, not all, most folk hate to have their views questioned and prefer to cut off communication. SO no problem Bro, you're not the 1st or last. Have a nice Sunday.

Iconoclasm is not making random assertions and then googling for a link for a rebuttal when people challenge you nor is peppering people with questions to cover up the holes in your logic

You have regurgitated Facebook level conspiracy theories too many times to be considered an independent thinker

Questioning authority is all well and good on an intellectual level, but it is not a badge of courage either. One of the primary signs of moral rot in our world today is the facetious distrust of anyone with authority. Some people in positions of power and leadership are outright opportunists as has always been the case, but they don't get that opportunity to lead without sheep to take advantage of. The sheep create the leaders we get.

Most of the wildly dishonest political cowardice we see these days is built upon the edifice of saying everyone is corrupt and trust no one. That produces the craptastic version of the GOP we have today which panders to this distrust of authority while simultaneously taking it to the bank.

Don't pat yourself on the back like that. You're no iconoclast

[Zenzibar]

Zbar, you're obviously trying not to be intellectually honest but to use outliers to promote a discredited point of view. You constantly cherry pick and then complain when I only show one study, as did you. But the knowledge that antibodies following infection don't last long is not something new. Get an education, or get honest, and then I'll talk with you again. Until then, I have no further interest in interacting with you. C'ya.

In all honesty virology is not my strong suit....isn't it obvious?

But what is a strong suit is that I have always question: my parents, my teachers, religion, politics, history. This includes big Pharma etc.

In my life-time what I've encountered is that most, not all, most folk hate to have their views questioned and prefer to cut off communication. SO no problem Bro, you're not the 1st or last. Have a nice Sunday.

Iconoclasm is not making random assertions and then googling for a link for a rebuttal when people challenge you nor is peppering people with questions to cover up the holes in your logic

You have regurgitated Facebook level conspiracy theories too many times to be considered an independent thinker

Questioning authority is all well and good on an intellectual level, but it is not a badge of courage either. One of the primary signs of moral rot in our world today is the facetious distrust of anyone with authority. Some people in positions of power and leadership are outright opportunists as has always been the case, but they don't get that opportunity to lead without sheep to take advantage of. The sheep create the leaders we get.

Most of the wildly dishonest political cowardice we see these days is built upon the edifice of saying everyone is corrupt and trust no one. That produces the craptastic version of the GOP we have today which panders to this distrust of authority while simultaneously taking it to the bank.

Don't pat yourself on the back like that. You're no iconoclast

Yeah, this thread is not why I signed up. You chaps enjoy the discussions here, I'll stick with simple and fun sht like Knicks Bball.

[BKlutch]

Zbar, you're obviously trying not to be intellectually honest but to use outliers to promote a discredited point of view. You constantly cherry pick and then complain when I only show one study, as did you. But the knowledge that antibodies following infection don't last long is not something new. Get an education, or get honest, and then I'll talk with you again. Until then, I have no further interest in interacting with you. C'ya.

In all honesty virology is not my strong suit....isn't it obvious?

But what is a strong suit is that I have always question: my parents, my teachers, religion, politics, history. This includes big Pharma etc.

In my life-time what I've encountered is that most, not all, most folk hate to have their views questioned and prefer to cut off communication. SO no problem Bro, you're not the 1st or last. Have a nice Sunday.

Iconoclasm is not making random assertions and then googling for a link for a rebuttal when people challenge you nor is peppering people with questions to cover up the holes in your logic

You have regurgitated Facebook level conspiracy theories too many times to be considered an independent thinker

Questioning authority is all well and good on an intellectual level, but it is not a badge of courage either. One of the primary signs of moral rot in our world today is the facetious distrust of anyone with authority. Some people in positions of power and leadership are outright opportunists as has always been the case, but they don't get that opportunity to lead without sheep to take advantage of. The sheep create the leaders we get.

Most of the wildly dishonest political cowardice we see these days is built upon the edifice of saying everyone is corrupt and trust no one. That produces the craptastic version of the GOP we have today which panders to this distrust of authority while simultaneously taking it to the bank.

Don't pat yourself on the back like that. You're no iconoclast

It also occurs to me that if any company should make windfall profits, it should be those that create a product in a time of need. Especially one that saves so many lives. Kind of nice to know there are so many thousands of good people who studied for years and have spent careers in the pursuit of advancing medical science to the point where they can do so much for us.

[HarthorneWingo]

So Southwest Airlines just canceled over 1,000 flights. The airlines says it’s due to “inclement” weather along with “staffing shortages” but others are saying that it has more to do with pilots who don’t want to take the vaccine.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-southwest-airlines-cancelations-passengers-limbo-20211010-b2ckkrmh2rc33b6n7rtdkhyzei-story.html

What I don’t get is, isn’t it “pro business” to get everyone vaccinated so that we can open up again. If everyone had just done the right thing I the beginning, we wouldn’t be struggling like we are now.

[BKlutch]

So Southwest Airlines just canceled over 1,000 flights. The airlines says it’s due to “inclement” weather along with “staffing shortages” but others are saying that it has more to do with pilots who don’t want to take the vaccine.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-southwest-airlines-cancelations-passengers-limbo-20211010-b2ckkrmh2rc33b6n7rtdkhyzei-story.html

What I don’t get is, isn’t it “pro business” to get everyone vaccinated so that we can open up again. If everyone had just done the right thing I the beginning, we wouldn’t be struggling like we are now.

I hope Kyrie Irving is the last player off the bench on away games, then retires from basketball.
I'm glad all healthcare workers and school employees in NYC are vaxed.
I'm fine with pilots leaving their careers behind if that's how little they care about others.

People can choose what they want to do and not do, but I don't grant them the right to knowingly endanger others. You wanna get drunk? Don't drive. You wanna get COVID? Stay away.

[Clyde_Style]

So Southwest Airlines just canceled over 1,000 flights. The airlines says it’s due to “inclement” weather along with “staffing shortages” but others are saying that it has more to do with pilots who don’t want to take the vaccine.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-southwest-airlines-cancelations-passengers-limbo-20211010-b2ckkrmh2rc33b6n7rtdkhyzei-story.html

What I don’t get is, isn’t it “pro business” to get everyone vaccinated so that we can open up again. If everyone had just done the right thing I the beginning, we wouldn’t be struggling like we are now.

I hope Kyrie Irving is the last player off the bench on away games, then retires from basketball.
I'm glad all healthcare workers and school employees in NYC are vaxed.
I'm fine with pilots leaving their careers behind if that's how little they care about others.

People can choose what they want to do and not do, but I don't grant them the right to knowingly endanger others. You wanna get drunk? Don't drive. You wanna get COVID? Stay away.

Sounds like some job opportunities for future pilots are opening up.

I'm reviewing covid data for FL for the first time in months. The data varies depending on which site I look by several percent, but it is uniform enough to get a coherent picture

Infection rates are dropping and hospitalizations are declining. FL has between 65-70% vaccinated with at least one shot now and around 55-60% fully vaccinated. This is still not enough to end the pandemic yet, but it is a big improvement since the start of the Summer when we were about 20% lower.

ICU's are still occupied by 80% covid patients which is a lot. At its peak it was 94%. So yes, people with other issues had to be turned away not that long ago and 4/5ths of ICU facilities in the state are still be used to deal with Covid. IOW, this is not close to winding down even if rising vaccination rates have flattened the curve finally and now it is dropping. Hoping it will continue in that direction.

The vaccination charts are still on an upwards trajectory so there is still room for continued growth in vaccination rates.

I go to Panera Bread to work. The ventilation is pretty good so I only put on my mask when someone sits at the table next to me. Most of the time I can manage without a mask. The employees are all masked up.

Overall, if FL is any kind of indicator we might soon be edging towards a high enough vaccination rate nationwide where the virus loses steam. Its not going away with this many unvaccinated people still, but it will be less likely to overwhelm the health system like it was doing earlier this year.

[HarthorneWingo]

So Southwest Airlines just canceled over 1,000 flights. The airlines says it’s due to “inclement” weather along with “staffing shortages” but others are saying that it has more to do with pilots who don’t want to take the vaccine.

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-southwest-airlines-cancelations-passengers-limbo-20211010-b2ckkrmh2rc33b6n7rtdkhyzei-story.html

What I don’t get is, isn’t it “pro business” to get everyone vaccinated so that we can open up again. If everyone had just done the right thing I the beginning, we wouldn’t be struggling like we are now.

I hope Kyrie Irving is the last player off the bench on away games, then retires from basketball.
I'm glad all healthcare workers and school employees in NYC are vaxed.
I'm fine with pilots leaving their careers behind if that's how little they care about others.

People can choose what they want to do and not do, but I don't grant them the right to knowingly endanger others. You wanna get drunk? Don't drive. You wanna get COVID? Stay away.

Make it 2,000 flight cancellations at Southwest Airlines.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/southwest-airlines-cancels-flights_n_6163828fe4b024dc528227d5

The widespread disruptions began shortly after the union for its pilots asked a federal court to block the airline’s order that all employees get vaccinated against COVID-19. The union said it doesn’t oppose vaccination, but it argued in a filing Friday that Southwest must negotiate before taking such a step.

Read on Twitter

?s=21