PG - this is the opposite of fun

[MrDollarBills]

If Thibs is the best coach in the league at preparation, why are we always so unprepared?

I need an explanation behind the consistent 3rd quarter meltdowns.

[HEZI]

In the playoffs Knicks rank 4th in isolation possessions and 9th in points per possession

Want to see the interesting part?

We are actually 2nd in transition possessions right behind OKC but 15th in points per possession which is 2nd worst and our opponent is actually worse as they are last

Middle of the pack in pick and roll plays for the ball handler

Dead last in pick and rolls for the roll man

Detroit has destroyed us in the pick and roll involving their bigs as they are top 5 in possessions and points per possession.

We are ok in isolation
Awful in transition
Awful in rolling to the basket
Awful in protecting the paint on defense

Oh and we can’t shoot

Kind of the same story it’s been all season

In order of how frequently we run these types of plays

We're 9th in PPP for spot ups (21% FREQ)
We're 6th in PPP (0.1 behind OKC) in PnR for the ball handler (17% FREQ)
We're 9th in PPP for ISO (13% FREQ)
We're 5th in PPP for post ups (6% FREQ)


So basically we're missing a bunch of 3s and otherwise only converting on Brunson finishing PnRs and Towns postups.

We're generating more spot ups than anything else though, because DET is packing the paint. I think the answer is very clearly we should be getting significantly more threes up.

That in turn will open up the 2 play types we are good at converting.

I forgot to include post ups. The issues is we aren’t shooting well and if you exclude KAT we are shooting awful from outside as a team. So basically our best shooter is also our best post up player so finding the right balance for KAT is our best recipe. But Detroit knows this and have sent all types of coverages on KAT to make it difficult. So rather than just shooting more 3s, we just need to be better at making the ones we do shoot

[DOT]

If Thibs is the best coach in the league at preparation, why are we always so unprepared?

I have the same question

Especially in a playoff series against the same team.

It's a constant endorsement he gets though.

The only logical explanation is, he's not great at preparation

That's not to say the guys who say he is are lying, I think they're just confusing practice with preparation. You can practice all you want, but if you only practice things going perfectly according to plan and don't anticipate countermoves, you're not really preparing

It's like having a final exam in geometry and you spend 8 hours a day for a week straight studying, but you only studied one chapter and it's from your biology textbook. You spent more time studying than probably anyone else, but you're completely unprepared for the questions you're gonna need to answer

[GONYK]

In the playoffs Knicks rank 4th in isolation possessions and 9th in points per possession

Want to see the interesting part?

We are actually 2nd in transition possessions right behind OKC but 15th in points per possession which is 2nd worst and our opponent is actually worse as they are last

Middle of the pack in pick and roll plays for the ball handler

Dead last in pick and rolls for the roll man

Detroit has destroyed us in the pick and roll involving their bigs as they are top 5 in possessions and points per possession.

We are ok in isolation
Awful in transition
Awful in rolling to the basket
Awful in protecting the paint on defense

Oh and we can’t shoot

Kind of the same story it’s been all season

In order of how frequently we run these types of plays

We're 9th in PPP for spot ups (21% FREQ)
We're 6th in PPP (0.1 behind OKC) in PnR for the ball handler (17% FREQ)
We're 9th in PPP for ISO (13% FREQ)
We're 5th in PPP for post ups (6% FREQ)


So basically we're missing a bunch of 3s and otherwise only converting on Brunson finishing PnRs and Towns postups.

We're generating more spot ups than anything else though, because DET is packing the paint. I think the answer is very clearly we should be getting significantly more threes up.

That in turn will open up the 2 play types we are good at converting.

I forgot to include post ups. The issues is we aren’t shooting well and if you exclude KAT we are shooting awful from outside as a team. So basically our best shooter is also our best post up player so finding the right balance for KAT is our best recipe. But Detroit knows this and have sent all types of coverages on KAT to make it difficult. So rather than just shooting more 3s, we just need to be better at making the ones we do shoot

Then lets hope tonight is Deuce's night

[GONYK]

If Thibs is the best coach in the league at preparation, why are we always so unprepared?

I have the same question

Especially in a playoff series against the same team.

It's a constant endorsement he gets though.

The only logical explanation is, he's not great at preparation

That's not to say the guys who say he is are lying, I think they're just confusing practice with preparation. You can practice all you want, but if you only practice things going perfectly according to plan and don't anticipate countermoves, you're not really preparing

It's like having a final exam in geometry and you spend 8 hours a day for a week straight studying, but you only studied one chapter and it's from your biology textbook. You spent more time studying than probably anyone else, but you're completely unprepared for the questions you're gonna need to answer

That sort of gets to my question though: Do we think these great players don't know the difference?

That's why I don't think it's that simple.

[nedleeds]

Did Phil Jackson ever draw up a play? Read and react.

Phil barely called timeouts

Phil barely stayed awake on the Lakers.

[HEZI]

In order of how frequently we run these types of plays

We're 9th in PPP for spot ups (21% FREQ)
We're 6th in PPP (0.1 behind OKC) in PnR for the ball handler (17% FREQ)
We're 9th in PPP for ISO (13% FREQ)
We're 5th in PPP for post ups (6% FREQ)


So basically we're missing a bunch of 3s and otherwise only converting on Brunson finishing PnRs and Towns postups.

We're generating more spot ups than anything else though, because DET is packing the paint. I think the answer is very clearly we should be getting significantly more threes up.

That in turn will open up the 2 play types we are good at converting.

I forgot to include post ups. The issues is we aren’t shooting well and if you exclude KAT we are shooting awful from outside as a team. So basically our best shooter is also our best post up player so finding the right balance for KAT is our best recipe. But Detroit knows this and have sent all types of coverages on KAT to make it difficult. So rather than just shooting more 3s, we just need to be better at making the ones we do shoot

Then lets hope tonight is Deuce's night

He’s way overdue but my expectations are low with his confidence looking shot. Especially with it being on the road I’m looking at the starters to close this out so Josh, Mikal and OG all need to shoot that thing better and we can get out of that fake pizza chain arena with a dub

[Capn'O]

The early 3rd quarter meltdowns have been particularly egregious. It tells me the Pistons are adjusting at halftime and then we're winging it to catch up to their adjustments.

I need an explanation behind the consistent 3rd quarter meltdowns.

Damn we're in lock step lately I hadn't even read that yet.

[GONYK]

The early 3rd quarter meltdowns have been particularly egregious. It tells me the Pistons are adjusting at halftime and then we're winging it to catch up to their adjustments.

I need an explanation behind the consistent 3rd quarter meltdowns.

Damn we're in lock step lately I hadn't even read that yet.

I think the double-edged sword of Thibs' obsessive preparation is that he trusts it. It's written in stone because so much consideration went into it in the first place and it takes a lot of evidence to move him in another direction.

So at halftime, the "adjustment" is probably just execute better, not changing the plan.

It's like the Daniel Tosh joke about Superman flying faster.

Watch on YouTube

[K_ick_God]

My relative who really never heard me rant: “I think Mitchell Robinson is the worst player in the NBA.”

Btw putting him in early MAYBE hurt KAT’s ability to impact the game.

[prophet_of_rage]

KG and Pierce have been heavily ciricitizing Thibs. KG went as far as calling him stubborn and saying that's why he'll never win a title.

That's the funny thing really. This wasn't like Teague was trying to throw Thibs under the bus---he actually said he loved playing for Thibs because Thibs does not coach much in terms of X and Os. He just lets you play but makes sure that the ball is mostly in the hands of your best player. It is like what you are seeing on the court to a T! He is just a motivator. You have former all-time greats like KG, Paul Pierce, Melo criticizing Thibs' ways. If you tried to look at the bigger picture and examine whether one's support for a coach is well founded or more on the emotional level--you take all these opinions and look at what is transpiring for 5 years in front of your own eyes night in and night out on the court:

1) Overplaying starters and running them into the ground with super short rotations? Check 100%!
2) heavy ISO ball from the start of the season to finish with no offensive structure and mostly putting the ball in his best players hand? Check 100%--3 years ago it was Randle doing whatever he wanted on offense, today it is Brunson! Check, check, check! It is like what Teague is saying as a guy that loves Thibs ---you are seeing it in almost every game.

We said we need to get rid of Randle, Barrett because they are ball stoppers dribbling and dribbling and dribbling with little ball movement etc. Now they got replaced by a complete different group of players but we are seeing almost the exact same brand of basketball. While Barrett and Randle are doing much much less dribbling we are seeing the exact same brand of basketball. No offensive sets, no structure. Now it is Brunson dribbling, KAT making those wild long drives from 3 point line, OG sometimes dribbling and taking tough shots and Mikal at times...no ball movement, no flow, very little creation of open shots. Actually with Randle the shot creation was somewhat better because he was much more mobile than KAT and could create better.

Like I said months ago. This season is a wrap. If you want to throw away next season around a toxic environment with the coach on the hot seat already with the season starting in October ---then go ahead and bring Thibs back.

So Thibs has a system.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

We really need a thumbs down option on this site.

“Phil Jackson didn’t understand offense and Thibs has a system.”

I’ve seen it all

Tex Winter was the x and o guy that taught Phil the triangle. Phil hasn't changed anything no matter personnel because he couldn't. He was the talent manager.

Thibs' system is ball in my best player's hand and read and react.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[prophet_of_rage]

If Thibs is the best coach in the league at preparation, why are we always so unprepared?

I have the same question

Especially in a playoff series against the same team.

It's a constant endorsement he gets though.

The only logical explanation is, he's not great at preparation

That's not to say the guys who say he is are lying, I think they're just confusing practice with preparation. You can practice all you want, but if you only practice things going perfectly according to plan and don't anticipate countermoves, you're not really preparing

It's like having a final exam in geometry and you spend 8 hours a day for a week straight studying, but you only studied one chapter and it's from your biology textbook. You spent more time studying than probably anyone else, but you're completely unprepared for the questions you're gonna need to answer

They don't practice like thst. They discuss options and variations. Best prepared means Thibs gives them multiple options for every situation. Come game time you have to pick which option you prefer as a player. Then they go with that.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

[Capn'O]

The early 3rd quarter meltdowns have been particularly egregious. It tells me the Pistons are adjusting at halftime and then we're winging it to catch up to their adjustments.

I need an explanation behind the consistent 3rd quarter meltdowns.

Damn we're in lock step lately I hadn't even read that yet.

I think the double-edged sword of Thibs' obsessive preparation is that he trusts it. It's written in stone because so much consideration went into it in the first place and it takes a lot of evidence to move him in another direction.

So at halftime, the "adjustment" is probably just execute better, not changing the plan.

It's like the Daniel Tosh joke about Superman flying faster.

Watch on YouTube

You're probably right. My Thibs joke has been when Plan A fails, try Plan A.

[JayTWill]

So Thibs has a system.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

We really need a thumbs down option on this site.

“Phil Jackson didn’t understand offense and Thibs has a system.”

I’ve seen it all

Tex Winter was the x and o guy that taught Phil the triangle. Phil hasn't changed anything no matter personnel because he couldn't. He was the talent manager.

Thibs' system is ball in my best player's hand and read and react.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

What purpose does he serve if his system is simply to put the ball in his best players' hand and just live with the results? Couldn't any coach do that?

[HopelessKnick]

What about Rose, Taj, Noah, Deng, KG, Pierce, Butler, etc...

Jeff Teague's opinion counts for more than all of them?

KG and Pierce have been heavily ciricitizing Thibs. KG went as far as calling him stubborn and saying that's why he'll never win a title.

That's the funny thing really. This wasn't like Teague was trying to throw Thibs under the bus---he actually said he loved playing for Thibs because Thibs does not coach much in terms of X and Os. He just lets you play but makes sure that the ball is mostly in the hands of your best player. It is like what you are seeing on the court to a T! He is just a motivator. You have former all-time greats like KG, Paul Pierce, Melo criticizing Thibs' ways. If you tried to look at the bigger picture and examine whether one's support for a coach is well founded or more on the emotional level--you take all these opinions and look at what is transpiring for 5 years in front of your own eyes night in and night out on the court:

1) Overplaying starters and running them into the ground with super short rotations? Check 100%!
2) heavy ISO ball from the start of the season to finish with no offensive structure and mostly putting the ball in his best players hand? Check 100%--3 years ago it was Randle doing whatever he wanted on offense, today it is Brunson! Check, check, check! It is like what Teague is saying as a guy that loves Thibs ---you are seeing it in almost every game.

We said we need to get rid of Randle, Barrett because they are ball stoppers dribbling and dribbling and dribbling with little ball movement etc. Now they got replaced by a complete different group of players but we are seeing almost the exact same brand of basketball. While Barrett and Randle are doing much much less dribbling we are seeing the exact same brand of basketball. No offensive sets, no structure. Now it is Brunson dribbling, KAT making those wild long drives from 3 point line, OG sometimes dribbling and taking tough shots and Mikal at times...no ball movement, no flow, very little creation of open shots. Actually with Randle the shot creation was somewhat better because he was much more mobile than KAT and could create better.

Like I said months ago. This season is a wrap. If you want to throw away next season around a toxic environment with the coach on the hot seat already with the season starting in October ---then go ahead and bring Thibs back.

I feel like you are drawing more out of my posts than I'm writing and responding to things I never said.

I will state my personal feelings plainly so there is no confusion:
- I don't think Thibs has maximized the offensive potential of this team and I don't think he will
- I think me made a big bet on Mitch being a source of significant defensive improvement and its had mixed results at best
- I think the team may have outgrown him this season
- I think the players also have to own their role in this

Now that we can put that aside, I also think it is fair to acknowledge that players all over the league who have worked with him says nobody is more committed, works harder or has prepared them better than Thibs. Some of these are the same players who echo the criticisms many on this board have.

So my point is that while he has a set of flaws he also has strengths that those guys praise him for and credit a portion of their success to so let's take all that into account when discussing him.

Fair enough. The bolded leads me though to the question which I asked numerous times since Mitch's return. I remember just prior to his return Thibs gave an interview saying that he hasn't had his projected starting Center the entire season etc. It sounded like, after an initial ramp up etc. he would try the line-up with Mitch and KAT but it never happened. Why? Some guys that like and defend Thibs sid he is likely saving it up for the playoffs to have that surprise effect but clearly this is not the case.

What adds to me being frustrated by this is: The team has been playing progressivley worse since december. We are a .500 team after the all-star break while being pretty much locked into our position for months. He had ample opportunity to try stuff like Mitch in the line-up. Heck we had OG out, we had Brunson out but he simply refused to do it after complaining not having his projected starting Center. Really made zero sense and I have yet to see anybody make any sense out of it. Has Precious been so bad that he is truly unplayable off the bench (even for 15minutes) that he needed to keep Mitch as the only bench big?

[HopelessKnick]

We really need a thumbs down option on this site.

“Phil Jackson didn’t understand offense and Thibs has a system.”

I’ve seen it all

Tex Winter was the x and o guy that taught Phil the triangle. Phil hasn't changed anything no matter personnel because he couldn't. He was the talent manager.

Thibs' system is ball in my best player's hand and read and react.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

What purpose does he serve if his system is simply to put the ball in his best players' hand and just live with the results? Couldn't any coach do that?

I think in the end it comes down to what attitudes and expectations people have of a coach's role. I have followed basketball and soccer all my life and am of the opinion that a great coach makes a huge difference. Like a Spoelstra has the same impact like an all-star player has on winning. I think it is getting clearer that some others that stick with Thibs see the coach more as a ego manager type of guy that just needs to get along well with the players....not a guy organizing and structuring plays, offense and defense so much. In that sense it makes sense to stick with Thibs because from his interviews and stuff he seems like a likable guy.

[spree8]

So Thibs has a system.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

We really need a thumbs down option on this site.

“Phil Jackson didn’t understand offense and Thibs has a system.”

I’ve seen it all

Tex Winter was the x and o guy that taught Phil the triangle. Phil hasn't changed anything no matter personnel because he couldn't. He was the talent manager.

Thibs' system is ball in my best player's hand and read and react.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

Everyone knows who Tex Winter is and what he did, but you’re using that to diminish Phil and calling him merely a talent manager who couldn’t change, just so you can put Thibs on his level… that’s truly insane and screams “I don’t know what I’m talking about” when it comes to Phil Jackson.

Call me when Thibs is forward thinking enough to get an innovator of an offense as his assistant and studies his system, has the balls to implement it, has his players be students of the game, thinks outside the box and does unorthodox things to get his players to put their ego aside and buy in, play together, and perform on another level than they have been for years, becomes a master of strategy and in-game management/adjustments, and wins 11 championships with 2 franchises and 3 rosters.

“Ball in my best players hands, read and react” couldn’t be further from a winning system. Please stop

[JayTWill]

Tex Winter was the x and o guy that taught Phil the triangle. Phil hasn't changed anything no matter personnel because he couldn't. He was the talent manager.

Thibs' system is ball in my best player's hand and read and react.

Sent from my SM-S9080 using RealGM mobile app

What purpose does he serve if his system is simply to put the ball in his best players' hand and just live with the results? Couldn't any coach do that?

I think in the end it comes down to what attitudes and expectations people have of a coach's role. I have followed basketball and soccer all my life and am of the opinion that a great coach makes a huge difference. Like a Spoelstra has the same impact like an all-star player has on winning. I think it is getting clearer that some others that stick with Thibs see the coach more as a ego manager type of guy that just needs to get along well with the players....not a guy organizing and structuring plays, offense and defense so much. In that sense it makes sense to stick with Thibs because from his interviews and stuff he seems like a likable guy.

I have no idea how likeable Thibs is. I assume it is heavily dependent on your role and your personality. These are professional players. They aren't going to say many negative things publicly. For example based on the leaked audio I doubt that Obi didn't question many of the decisions Thibs made but I don't think I ever heard him say anything negative publicly about Thibs before or after that.

Outside of the X and O's complaints about Thibs I do wonder if his personality does hinder him at times. He says the right things in interviews but he also wears his emotions on his sleeves. I don't watch him and think "I would love to play for that guy" or "These guys must love playing for him". It honestly looks stressful.

[HopelessKnick]

What purpose does he serve if his system is simply to put the ball in his best players' hand and just live with the results? Couldn't any coach do that?

I think in the end it comes down to what attitudes and expectations people have of a coach's role. I have followed basketball and soccer all my life and am of the opinion that a great coach makes a huge difference. Like a Spoelstra has the same impact like an all-star player has on winning. I think it is getting clearer that some others that stick with Thibs see the coach more as a ego manager type of guy that just needs to get along well with the players....not a guy organizing and structuring plays, offense and defense so much. In that sense it makes sense to stick with Thibs because from his interviews and stuff he seems like a likable guy.

I have no idea how likeable Thibs is. I assume it is heavily dependent on your role and your personality. These are professional players. They aren't going to say many negative things publicly. For example based on the leaked audio I doubt that Obi didn't question many of the decisions Thibs made but I don't think I ever heard him say anything negative publicly about Thibs before or after that.

Outside of the X and O's complaints about Thibs I do wonder if his personality does hinder him at times. He says the right things in interviews but he also wears his emotions on his sleeves. I don't watch him and think "I would love to play for that guy" or "These guys must love playing for him". It honestly looks stressful.

Yeah fair enough. I'll readily admit I followed the games and everything around it very closely in the 90s up until 2017/18. When Mills/Perry signed Hardaway to that 70mill. contract and celebrated it (the straw that broke the camels back) I was so disgusted I lost so much interest in the Knicks and NBA in general I didn't watch anything NBA related for close to a year and never recovered that level of interest around the game. I nowadays just watch the games and during playoff times podcasts/pundits around it and sometimes write on this board. So yeah, maybe he is not likable, I don't have much of a clue. I mean you are right that players generally don't say negative stuff publically...you also never know whether you are not going to play for that guy again.

GONYK said something about KG/Pierce praising Thibs...I'm pretty sure most of their praise came during their playing days. It is interesting that many ex-players, likely because they speak their minds more freely, have brought up some very harsh criticism of Thibs. And someone like Mikal blasting Thibs like that feels like a heavy indictment to me. Like Bridges does not strike you as a very outspoken, critical guy at all really. And it is difficult to imagine he was strictly speaking on behalf of himself and Payne only. There must be some sentiment among the players (maybe outside Hart and JB) that they don't like Thibs' team management/coaching. If say Mikal has the impression that 12 out of the 15 guys genuinely like Thibs and how he approaches the team and his management I have huge doubts Mikal would say what he said publically. Does not seem like that guy.

But guys on the other side of the argument will say that this is all speculation and we have no way to know this so I avoid these types of arguments.

[GONYK]

KG and Pierce have been heavily ciricitizing Thibs. KG went as far as calling him stubborn and saying that's why he'll never win a title.

That's the funny thing really. This wasn't like Teague was trying to throw Thibs under the bus---he actually said he loved playing for Thibs because Thibs does not coach much in terms of X and Os. He just lets you play but makes sure that the ball is mostly in the hands of your best player. It is like what you are seeing on the court to a T! He is just a motivator. You have former all-time greats like KG, Paul Pierce, Melo criticizing Thibs' ways. If you tried to look at the bigger picture and examine whether one's support for a coach is well founded or more on the emotional level--you take all these opinions and look at what is transpiring for 5 years in front of your own eyes night in and night out on the court:

1) Overplaying starters and running them into the ground with super short rotations? Check 100%!
2) heavy ISO ball from the start of the season to finish with no offensive structure and mostly putting the ball in his best players hand? Check 100%--3 years ago it was Randle doing whatever he wanted on offense, today it is Brunson! Check, check, check! It is like what Teague is saying as a guy that loves Thibs ---you are seeing it in almost every game.

We said we need to get rid of Randle, Barrett because they are ball stoppers dribbling and dribbling and dribbling with little ball movement etc. Now they got replaced by a complete different group of players but we are seeing almost the exact same brand of basketball. While Barrett and Randle are doing much much less dribbling we are seeing the exact same brand of basketball. No offensive sets, no structure. Now it is Brunson dribbling, KAT making those wild long drives from 3 point line, OG sometimes dribbling and taking tough shots and Mikal at times...no ball movement, no flow, very little creation of open shots. Actually with Randle the shot creation was somewhat better because he was much more mobile than KAT and could create better.

Like I said months ago. This season is a wrap. If you want to throw away next season around a toxic environment with the coach on the hot seat already with the season starting in October ---then go ahead and bring Thibs back.

I feel like you are drawing more out of my posts than I'm writing and responding to things I never said.

I will state my personal feelings plainly so there is no confusion:
- I don't think Thibs has maximized the offensive potential of this team and I don't think he will
- I think me made a big bet on Mitch being a source of significant defensive improvement and its had mixed results at best
- I think the team may have outgrown him this season
- I think the players also have to own their role in this

Now that we can put that aside, I also think it is fair to acknowledge that players all over the league who have worked with him says nobody is more committed, works harder or has prepared them better than Thibs. Some of these are the same players who echo the criticisms many on this board have.

So my point is that while he has a set of flaws he also has strengths that those guys praise him for and credit a portion of their success to so let's take all that into account when discussing him.

Fair enough. The bolded leads me though to the question which I asked numerous times since Mitch's return. I remember just prior to his return Thibs gave an interview saying that he hasn't had his projected starting Center the entire season etc. It sounded like, after an initial ramp up etc. he would try the line-up with Mitch and KAT but it never happened. Why? Some guys that like and defend Thibs sid he is likely saving it up for the playoffs to have that surprise effect but clearly this is not the case.

What adds to me being frustrated by this is: The team has been playing progressivley worse since december. We are a .500 team after the all-star break while being pretty much locked into our position for months. He had ample opportunity to try stuff like Mitch in the line-up. Heck we had OG out, we had Brunson out but he simply refused to do it after complaining not having his projected starting Center. Really made zero sense and I have yet to see anybody make any sense out of it. Has Precious been so bad that he is truly unplayable off the bench (even for 15minutes) that he needed to keep Mitch as the only bench big?

Personally, I always took the "projected starting C" comment to mean that Mitch was the projected C before we got KAT. The whole point of KAT is to play him at the 5, where he's a walking mismatch. If we traded for KAT just to recreate the Timberwolves, that is a failure, so I don't think the plan was ever for Mitch to start. I do think the plan was to lean into Mitch lineups when the matchups/siutations called for it though.

We have been playing progressively worse because we haven't made any adjustments to counteract teams guarding KAT with a wing. There are things to counteract that and get us back to a great offense and there are things to do on defense. Thibs has chosen to do neither nor experiment with lineups to know what he has in his back pocket. He's basically asked KAT to become a different player and I think the team's inconsistency all kind of stems from that particular point of stubbornness.

Instead we got a bastardized lineup where Hart is the 5 instead of Mitch or KAT, which has effects on both ends.