PG: Knicks vs Celtics: Season opener!

[Guano]

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2235454&p=102480349&hilit=towns#p102480349

he's mostly upset because in his heart he knows we're right. sad.

to be fair on that point I don't think anyone wanted to trade a bunch of draft capital for KAT. We gave up an extremely polarizing player in Randle who is talented...but even more flawed and less versatile than Towns. I'm really not sweating over a heavily protected lottery pick. Donte losing was not ideal but you also have to bridge gap to close a deal with the Randle non extension looming.

I think like you have said and I agree with the Mikal deal is far more "risky" to our future. Swapping Randle/DD for KAT I don't think will sink us and it has the potential fit to help up.

Mikal we obviously committed our significant tradable draft capital for (we can argue how valuable our draft capital was - I don't think its anywhere near to get a Giannis level player) but I'm sure there are other good players we could have acquired. There are obviously more skilled players we probably could have went after but I believe the org felt fit, two-way ability, and makeup was more valuable then simply #'s on the box score.

We will see if that was the right call.

my point is, a large percentage of the board was against trading for kat at all. they didn't like him. but somehow now that some of us haven't done a complete 180 we're not being fans ? c'mon. yeah, melo is upset about randle. but if you had traded him as part of a package for an embiid or a giannis or someone of that ilk, he wouldn't complain about it. it's not just sour grapes, he thinks it wasn't a good move. most of you agreed until we did it.

and yes mikal is more risky no doubt because of the cost. but he's also easier to trade if you have to. although we'll never get everything back that we gave up. kat fundamentally changes how the team plays and i'm not sure we're any better now after both of these moves than we were last year.

Also were ridiculed for not having a better plan which is absurd. It's not my job to have a better plan. I'm a fan. I root for the team. I don't study the cap and line up deals or have information on how Jimmy Butler's relationship is with the heat and if he might demand a trade.

What we know is were locked into a team that's going to be really competitive and make some noise. But our ceiling for Brunsons prime looks to be capped below championship level because of our lack of interrior defense with kat playing the 5. Also our roster flexibility is nuked. And some of us don't love this.

[Chanel Bomber]

I'm just curious as to who the KAT-trade critics wanted at the 5 with iHart gone and Mitch sidelined.

Randle? Sims?

Precious, ok, but is a KAT-Precious frontcourt any worse than Randle-Precious?

And is Randle even tradable for a superstar like Giannis with a 4-year, 40 million plus contract extension, since you don't want to lose him for nothing?

We'll see how the trade pans out and I'm open to the possibility that my stance on it will be proven wrong.

But the trade that killed our flexibility was the Mikal trade.

[3toheadmelo]

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2235454&p=102480349&hilit=towns#p102480349

he's mostly upset because in his heart he knows we're right. sad.

to be fair on that point I don't think anyone wanted to trade a bunch of draft capital for KAT. We gave up an extremely polarizing player in Randle who is talented...but even more flawed and less versatile than Towns. I'm really not sweating over a heavily protected lottery pick. Donte losing was not ideal but you also have to bridge gap to close a deal with the Randle non extension looming.

I think like you have said and I agree with the Mikal deal is far more "risky" to our future. Swapping Randle/DD for KAT I don't think will sink us and it has the potential fit to help up.

Mikal we obviously committed our significant tradable draft capital for (we can argue how valuable our draft capital was - I don't think its anywhere near to get a Giannis level player) but I'm sure there are other good players we could have acquired. There are obviously more skilled players we probably could have went after but I believe the org felt fit, two-way ability, and makeup was more valuable then simply #'s on the box score.

We will see if that was the right call.

my point is, a large percentage of the board was against trading for kat at all. they didn't like him. but somehow now that some of us haven't done a complete 180 we're not being fans ? c'mon. yeah, melo is upset about randle. but if you had traded him as part of a package for an embiid or a giannis or someone of that ilk, he wouldn't complain about it. it's not just sour grapes, he thinks it wasn't a good move. most of you agreed until we did it.

and yes mikal is more risky no doubt because of the cost. but he's also easier to trade if you have to. although we'll never get everything back that we gave up. kat fundamentally changes how the team plays and i'm not sure we're any better now after both of these moves than we were last year.

Thank you uncle sham.

[jvsimonetti0514]

They’re crippled for years to come. They’ll try to recoup some of that draft capital by trading us Towns. Hopefully we don’t bite on it

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2235454&p=102480349&hilit=towns#p102480349

he's mostly upset because in his heart he knows we're right. sad.

Clyde style calling Kat Eddy Curry

Who would have guessed two years ago that not getting Ihart’s bird rights would have been the thing that dramatically changed the team so much? Basically forced our hands into doing the trade that Leon wanted to do all along.

I do agree with MP that the package we traded makes it a little bit more tolerable but I can’t imagine too many people were big Kat fans before this trade. The guy has had a pretty underwhelming career that his very good numbers don’t tell the full story about.

I don’t want to overreact cuz after the first two weeks last year, we were ready to boot Randle and crown RJ the second option and we saw how that ended up. This first game does confirm a lot of what we were worried about though.

[Capn'O]

I'm just curious as to who the KAT-trade critics wanted at the 5 with iHart gone and Mitch sidelined.

Randle? Sims?

Precious, ok, but is a KAT-Precious frontcourt any worse than Randle-Precious?

And is Randle even tradable for a superstar like Giannis with a 4-year, 40 million plus contract extension, since you don't want to lose him for nothing?

We'll see how the trade pans out and I'm open to the possibility that my stance on it will be proven wrong.

But the trade that killed our flexibility was the Mikal trade.

Like guano said, it's hard to come up with alternative scenarios from the outside. In part because the team positions itself to go in specific directions. Bridges and Towns were obviously long game targets. If we had, say, prioritized bringing KP back as a long term target we'd have him as we could have easily outbid the Celtics for him at that time. I use him as an example because from what he's said both the will to come back was there and he was obviously available at the time whereas some other guys it's not as clear that they could have been gotten. But that's not where the team's priorities were.

Likewise, if the goal had been to get a rugged 5 to replace iHart if he left, we'd have that either through free agency or trade positioning.

[NYKat]

Funny thing is the hardcore "homers" rarely show up after sht like that last game. But they'll show up when it's sunshine and act like the critical fans aren't around during all of it. Not that im complaing its nice to have a break from em. The one positive to horrible outtings.

I actually think that it’s odd frequenting spaces that you hate. It’s a curious obsession, like a vegan at a steakhouse. Fan boards like this function to accommodate fans that root for team success. A few folks apparently like going to concerts to boo from the stands. The negativity is nothing but attention seeking behavior. It’s obvious because they post the most, which is once again very odd. The better the team gets, the louder the trolls squawk. It’s just something that takes getting used to.

Additionally, for some, it's more about an individual player than the team.

If something goes awry with their favorite player then they become miserable.

And if they can't be happy then no one can be happy.

The flip side of that is those who irrationally target one player and blame them for all the teams woes and openly root for the player to fail.

They ignore that players contribution and positives, and they prioritize that players failure over team success.

Those insufferable fans are no better.

[thebuzzardman]

Funny thing is the hardcore "homers" rarely show up after sht like that last game. But they'll show up when it's sunshine and act like the critical fans aren't around during all of it. Not that im complaing its nice to have a break from em. The one positive to horrible outtings.

I actually think that it’s odd frequenting spaces that you hate. It’s a curious obsession, like a vegan at a steakhouse. Fan boards like this function to accommodate fans that root for team success. A few folks apparently like going to concerts to boo from the stands. The negativity is nothing but attention seeking behavior. It’s obvious because they post the most, which is once again very odd. The better the team gets, the louder the trolls squawk. It’s just something that takes getting used to.

You are underestimating the addiction of rage, hate and self righteousness people have to the effects that happen in the brain. It doesn't come from the reasoning part of it but sure there is some back filling an argument to explain it. It's a part of brain getting flooded with endorphins even if it means purposefully creating the stressful conditions to produce it.

Social media and forums flourish with this dynamic but it isn't a new phenomenon, it is the bedrock motivational tactic used by ethnic, political, religious and even the most primitive tribal cultures to create an us vs them mentality to alienate or bond. I'm sure there are some on this forum who will scoff at this idea, but if you do, ask yourself...are you team villain or team homer?

I agree.

If everyone would just rally around my brand of negativity, all their issues would be solved

[thebuzzardman]

I'm just curious as to who the KAT-trade critics wanted at the 5 with iHart gone and Mitch sidelined.

Randle? Sims?

Precious, ok, but is a KAT-Precious frontcourt any worse than Randle-Precious?

And is Randle even tradable for a superstar like Giannis with a 4-year, 40 million plus contract extension, since you don't want to lose him for nothing?

We'll see how the trade pans out and I'm open to the possibility that my stance on it will be proven wrong.

But the trade that killed our flexibility was the Mikal trade.

Jeffries 2.0 the real villain

[Capn'O]

From the mod chair, healthy debate is always welcome. Non-stop bashing of a player or the team generally is going to eventually get our attention. Especially if it becomes a singular focus.

[stuporman]

To be fair...finding a role player defensive center is alot easier than finding a stretch 7 footer star level player. So that the Knicks lost iHart and Mitch being injured isn't a death knell long term for them, it's something that can be fixed in a variety of ways pretty quickly.

Huk may develop sooner than later or they probably should have gone after Jay Huff harder after iHart left but it's not like rim running shot blockers are scarce. They just aren't as desirable in the modern NBA so can be found for a reasonable cost yet finding one with some semblance of offensive game is the key.

The Knicks don't need a DPOY or all star level rim protector, either.

[mpharris36]

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2235454&p=102480349&hilit=towns#p102480349

he's mostly upset because in his heart he knows we're right. sad.

to be fair on that point I don't think anyone wanted to trade a bunch of draft capital for KAT. We gave up an extremely polarizing player in Randle who is talented...but even more flawed and less versatile than Towns. I'm really not sweating over a heavily protected lottery pick. Donte losing was not ideal but you also have to bridge gap to close a deal with the Randle non extension looming.

I think like you have said and I agree with the Mikal deal is far more "risky" to our future. Swapping Randle/DD for KAT I don't think will sink us and it has the potential fit to help up.

Mikal we obviously committed our significant tradable draft capital for (we can argue how valuable our draft capital was - I don't think its anywhere near to get a Giannis level player) but I'm sure there are other good players we could have acquired. There are obviously more skilled players we probably could have went after but I believe the org felt fit, two-way ability, and makeup was more valuable then simply #'s on the box score.

We will see if that was the right call.

my point is, a large percentage of the board was against trading for kat at all. they didn't like him. but somehow now that some of us haven't done a complete 180 we're not being fans ? c'mon. yeah, melo is upset about randle. but if you had traded him as part of a package for an embiid or a giannis or someone of that ilk, he wouldn't complain about it. it's not just sour grapes, he thinks it wasn't a good move. most of you agreed until we did it.

and yes mikal is more risky no doubt because of the cost. but he's also easier to trade if you have to. although we'll never get everything back that we gave up. kat fundamentally changes how the team plays and i'm not sure we're any better now after both of these moves than we were last year.

yeah but the difference is Fat Kat didn't say if it was mainly just Randle for KAT he didn't want KAT. He was specifically talking about Minny trading KAT for draft capital. I still have yet to see a trade rumor for Randle that involved us receiving a good package. That is the point. If you wanted Randle gone you probably needed to acquire a flawed players to some extent as well. Its just how trades work...it doesn't take a genius to realize Randle's trade value didn't match his production. Just go to any opposing fan viewpoint. He's probably the only multiple time all-nba player that probably wouldn't even get 1st round draft capital back in return.

Read on Twitter

The reason the Melo point doesn't make sense is we couldn't get Embiid or Giannis with Randle headlining a package. That is comical. I don't even know if Randle held positive trade value around the league. But we still had to replace his productive if we were trading him.

I don't think you can look at a trade as do you want a player or don't want a player. It all depends on value and fit for the team. Meaning I wouldn't want KAT if we had to give up a lot of draft capital...I would be ok with KAT assuming it was mainly for Randle. I think both things can be true.

[mpharris36]

to be fair on that point I don't think anyone wanted to trade a bunch of draft capital for KAT. We gave up an extremely polarizing player in Randle who is talented...but even more flawed and less versatile than Towns. I'm really not sweating over a heavily protected lottery pick. Donte losing was not ideal but you also have to bridge gap to close a deal with the Randle non extension looming.

I think like you have said and I agree with the Mikal deal is far more "risky" to our future. Swapping Randle/DD for KAT I don't think will sink us and it has the potential fit to help up.

Mikal we obviously committed our significant tradable draft capital for (we can argue how valuable our draft capital was - I don't think its anywhere near to get a Giannis level player) but I'm sure there are other good players we could have acquired. There are obviously more skilled players we probably could have went after but I believe the org felt fit, two-way ability, and makeup was more valuable then simply #'s on the box score.

We will see if that was the right call.

my point is, a large percentage of the board was against trading for kat at all. they didn't like him. but somehow now that some of us haven't done a complete 180 we're not being fans ? c'mon. yeah, melo is upset about randle. but if you had traded him as part of a package for an embiid or a giannis or someone of that ilk, he wouldn't complain about it. it's not just sour grapes, he thinks it wasn't a good move. most of you agreed until we did it.

and yes mikal is more risky no doubt because of the cost. but he's also easier to trade if you have to. although we'll never get everything back that we gave up. kat fundamentally changes how the team plays and i'm not sure we're any better now after both of these moves than we were last year.

Also were ridiculed for not having a better plan which is absurd. It's not my job to have a better plan. I'm a fan. I root for the team. I don't study the cap and line up deals or have information on how Jimmy Butler's relationship is with the heat and if he might demand a trade.

What we know is were locked into a team that's going to be really competitive and make some noise. But our ceiling for Brunsons prime looks to be capped below championship level because of our lack of interrior defense with kat playing the 5. Also our roster flexibility is nuked. And some of us don't love this.

All that is fair and no one is saying otherwise about having a differentiating opinion on the trade. But its not fair to say we should have just waited for Giannis when we didn't have a package to get him.

Alternatively you probably could have traded Randle for Ingram. Would that have excited you? Melo seems like he would be fine with it. So lets start there. Where do you stand on a players value.

Do you think KAT is more valuable than Ingram?

[stuporman]

I actually think that it’s odd frequenting spaces that you hate. It’s a curious obsession, like a vegan at a steakhouse. Fan boards like this function to accommodate fans that root for team success. A few folks apparently like going to concerts to boo from the stands. The negativity is nothing but attention seeking behavior. It’s obvious because they post the most, which is once again very odd. The better the team gets, the louder the trolls squawk. It’s just something that takes getting used to.

You are underestimating the addiction of rage, hate and self righteousness people have to the effects that happen in the brain. It doesn't come from the reasoning part of it but sure there is some back filling an argument to explain it. It's a part of brain getting flooded with endorphins even if it means purposefully creating the stressful conditions to produce it.

Social media and forums flourish with this dynamic but it isn't a new phenomenon, it is the bedrock motivational tactic used by ethnic, political, religious and even the most primitive tribal cultures to create an us vs them mentality to alienate or bond. I'm sure there are some on this forum who will scoff at this idea, but if you do, ask yourself...are you team villain or team homer?

I agree.

If everyone would just rally around my brand of negativity, all their issues would be solved

Your brand of negativity...

[stuporman]

The imagined deal for a player that would never happen anyway is always what people use to criticize what actually has happened.

[mpharris36]

The imagined deal for a player that would never happen anyway is always what people use to criticize what actually has happened.

that is the ultimate disconnect I am seeing.

We had 3 things:

Extend Randle (clearly that wasn't in the cards)

Keep Randle (with knicks current cap situation you could have done that for one year but you potentially risk losing his production for nothing) - and we couldn't have another Ihart situation where we lose a player and get nothing in return.

Trade Randle (you probably aren't going to get a flawless player in this scenario but you also need to potentially replace 20pts 10 boards on the books). It challenging but that is where you might have to make sacrifices in getting the perfect player or the best player we can get under those circumstances.

[jvsimonetti0514]

I wonder if this would have happened anyways considering Ihart is missing the first 5 weeks of the season

[3toheadmelo]

to be fair on that point I don't think anyone wanted to trade a bunch of draft capital for KAT. We gave up an extremely polarizing player in Randle who is talented...but even more flawed and less versatile than Towns. I'm really not sweating over a heavily protected lottery pick. Donte losing was not ideal but you also have to bridge gap to close a deal with the Randle non extension looming.

I think like you have said and I agree with the Mikal deal is far more "risky" to our future. Swapping Randle/DD for KAT I don't think will sink us and it has the potential fit to help up.

Mikal we obviously committed our significant tradable draft capital for (we can argue how valuable our draft capital was - I don't think its anywhere near to get a Giannis level player) but I'm sure there are other good players we could have acquired. There are obviously more skilled players we probably could have went after but I believe the org felt fit, two-way ability, and makeup was more valuable then simply #'s on the box score.

We will see if that was the right call.

my point is, a large percentage of the board was against trading for kat at all. they didn't like him. but somehow now that some of us haven't done a complete 180 we're not being fans ? c'mon. yeah, melo is upset about randle. but if you had traded him as part of a package for an embiid or a giannis or someone of that ilk, he wouldn't complain about it. it's not just sour grapes, he thinks it wasn't a good move. most of you agreed until we did it.

and yes mikal is more risky no doubt because of the cost. but he's also easier to trade if you have to. although we'll never get everything back that we gave up. kat fundamentally changes how the team plays and i'm not sure we're any better now after both of these moves than we were last year.

yeah but the difference is Fat Kat didn't say if it was mainly just Randle for KAT he didn't want KAT. He was specifically talking about Minny trading KAT for draft capital. I still have yet to see a trade rumor for Randle that involved us receiving a good package. That is the point. If you wanted Randle gone you probably needed to acquire a flawed players to some extent as well. Its just how trades work...it doesn't take a genius to realize Randle's trade value didn't match his production. Just go to any opposing fan viewpoint. He's probably the only multiple time all-nba player that probably wouldn't even get 1st round draft capital back in return.

Read on Twitter

The reason the Melo point doesn't make sense is we couldn't get Embiid or Giannis with Randle headlining a package. That is comical. I don't even know if Randle held positive trade value around the league. But we still had to replace his productive if we were trading him.

I don't think you can look at a trade as do you want a player or don't want a player. It all depends on value and fit for the team. Meaning I wouldn't want KAT if we had to give up a lot of draft capital...I would be ok with KAT assuming it was mainly for Randle. I think both things can be true.

The only thing comical is believing that KAT had trade value around the league

Towns will turn 29 in November and has missed at least 22 games in four of his last five seasons. He is set to make $49 million this season and has a $61 million player option in 2027-28. That salary made the market for him quite tepid, team sources said. If KAT were to get injured again or the Timberwolves took a step back competitively, it might have been difficult to move him.

Randle had way more trade value than KAT.

During Monday's episode of The Hoop Collective, ESPN's Brian Windhorst reported that Randle's reasonable salary makes him a moveable piece and that the team still has other assets to make another splashy transaction.

"Because of that $29 million salary, he is extraordinarily tradable," Windhorst said. "The Knicks still do have a couple of first-round picks that they can move."

KAT isn’t getting you Giannis or Embiid

[god shammgod]

stop it. nobody thinks randle would be the main piece in a trade for one of those guys. he would be salary filler. the point is we wouldn't complain about a trade that we knew made the team better. you guys yourself aren't sure. or should i search your posts ? lol

[mpharris36]

my point is, a large percentage of the board was against trading for kat at all. they didn't like him. but somehow now that some of us haven't done a complete 180 we're not being fans ? c'mon. yeah, melo is upset about randle. but if you had traded him as part of a package for an embiid or a giannis or someone of that ilk, he wouldn't complain about it. it's not just sour grapes, he thinks it wasn't a good move. most of you agreed until we did it.

and yes mikal is more risky no doubt because of the cost. but he's also easier to trade if you have to. although we'll never get everything back that we gave up. kat fundamentally changes how the team plays and i'm not sure we're any better now after both of these moves than we were last year.

yeah but the difference is Fat Kat didn't say if it was mainly just Randle for KAT he didn't want KAT. He was specifically talking about Minny trading KAT for draft capital. I still have yet to see a trade rumor for Randle that involved us receiving a good package. That is the point. If you wanted Randle gone you probably needed to acquire a flawed players to some extent as well. Its just how trades work...it doesn't take a genius to realize Randle's trade value didn't match his production. Just go to any opposing fan viewpoint. He's probably the only multiple time all-nba player that probably wouldn't even get 1st round draft capital back in return.

Read on Twitter

The reason the Melo point doesn't make sense is we couldn't get Embiid or Giannis with Randle headlining a package. That is comical. I don't even know if Randle held positive trade value around the league. But we still had to replace his productive if we were trading him.

I don't think you can look at a trade as do you want a player or don't want a player. It all depends on value and fit for the team. Meaning I wouldn't want KAT if we had to give up a lot of draft capital...I would be ok with KAT assuming it was mainly for Randle. I think both things can be true.

The only thing comical is believing that KAT had trade value around the league

Towns will turn 29 in November and has missed at least 22 games in four of his last five seasons. He is set to make $49 million this season and has a $61 million player option in 2027-28. That salary made the market for him quite tepid, team sources said. If KAT were to get injured again or the Timberwolves took a step back competitively, it might have been difficult to move him.

Randle had way more trade value than KAT.

During Monday's episode of The Hoop Collective, ESPN's Brian Windhorst reported that Randle's reasonable salary makes him a moveable piece and that the team still has other assets to make another splashy transaction.

"Because of that $29 million salary, he is extraordinarily tradable," Windhorst said. "The Knicks still do have a couple of first-round picks that they can move."

KAT isn’t getting you Giannis or Embiid

Who said KAT is getting you Giannis or Embiid?

And where has there been one team linked to wanting to trade for Randle? It wasn't until we added Donte in the trade that Minny even decided to bite on Randle for KAT. I legit just shared a article from the athletic from a warriors beat writer that said GSW wanted KAT but couldn't give what Minny wanted in terms of talent.

You can't just throw out a statement that Randle had way more value than KAT and have nothing to back up that statement. I literally quoted a

[mpharris36]

stop it. nobody thinks randle would be the main piece in a trade for one of those guys. he would be salary filler. the point is we wouldn't complain about a trade that we knew made the team better. you guys yourself aren't sure. or should i search your posts ? lol

no you stop it. Randle salary filler and our picks package for Mikal doesn't sniff Giannis. And you know that. There are plenty of teams that blow that offer out the water.

also Randle's an expiring...you basically would have been forced to make the randle trade THIS year. What makes you think MIL even would have traded Giannis this offseason or in the middle of the year because that is what you are suggesting with this timeline.

Unless you are suggesting we now should have extended Randle and you think that would make him more or less tradable with a much larger contract?

You can research my posts....I think KAT is a flawed player...I think he is just way less flawed than Randle especially considering the looming contract decision on Randle which was happening this upcoming year when he was opting out.

You can have your issues with KAT as a player and still understand the move because of what we traded