OT: Democratic Primary Thread

[GONYK]

Black voters are unquestionably Joe Biden's base

Older black voters, not younger. The question is why?

Association with Obama. He didn't have a so called "black" base the other 2 times he ran for President.

Irrelevant to the fact that it is his base this time around. Not "Republican-lite" voters.

[HarthorneWingo]

Older black voters, not younger. The question is why?

Association with Obama. He didn't have a so called "black" base the other 2 times he ran for President.

Irrelevant to the fact that it is his base this time around. Not "Republican-lite" voters.

It's relevant to the lack of enthusiasm for his candidacy.

[Knickfan1982]

Older black voters, not younger. The question is why?

Association with Obama. He didn't have a so called "black" base the other 2 times he ran for President.

Irrelevant to the fact that it is his base this time around. Not "Republican-lite" voters.

I stand by my statement despite your needless insertion of race into the topic.



Nevermind that older african american and latino voters tend to be more socially conservative than most people are willing to acknowledge.

[HarthorneWingo]

Time to go walk my dog while you ponder my genius. lmao

[GONYK]

Association with Obama. He didn't have a so called "black" base the other 2 times he ran for President.

Irrelevant to the fact that it is his base this time around. Not "Republican-lite" voters.

It's relevant to the lack of enthusiasm for his candidacy.

Wingo, you seem to be having issues sticking to the point today.

You're bobbing and weaving like Ali out here

And Nate Silver already dismissed your enthusiasm concern

[GONYK]

Association with Obama. He didn't have a so called "black" base the other 2 times he ran for President.

Irrelevant to the fact that it is his base this time around. Not "Republican-lite" voters.

I stand by my statement despite your needless insertion of race into the topic.



Nevermind that older african american and latino voters tend to be more socially conservative than most people are willing to acknowledge.

Insertion of race?

It's an inescapable and irrefutable truth that black voters are the reason that Joe Biden is the nominee and not anyone else. They are the textbook definition of his "base". You are trying to diminish his viability as a candidate by stating that he got to be the nominee because he appealed to Republicans. That is wrong on its face.

Now, if you want to have a discussion on whether or not older black and latino voters are more conservative, that is totally a relevant conversation to have.

I don't think it is any secret that older black voters probably don't gravitate towards Bernie and Warren. The results of this primary illustrate that. But if there are more older black and latino voters than there are AOC progressives, then what is the true identity of the party right now?

[GONYK]

Let's put Nate Silver on the back burner for the moment. He's a statistician my sources are policy wonks.

Why don't you answer my question about the policies because, in the end, that's what's most important. That's what we progressives are fighting for. You claimed my sources were biased. I responded by stating that they/we are fighting for certain and specific changes to the way America does business. The question is, "Do you agree with those proposed changes or not?"

Yes, I agree with them.

That doesn't change the nature of my question to you.

And therefore my sources are not biased! They happen to agree with most Americans.

So then why would you support the candidate who opposes them?

My friend, that's not what biased means

[Knickfan1982]

Irrelevant to the fact that it is his base this time around. Not "Republican-lite" voters.

I stand by my statement despite your needless insertion of race into the topic.



Nevermind that older african american and latino voters tend to be more socially conservative than most people are willing to acknowledge.

Insertion of race?

It's an inescapable and irrefutable truth that black voters are the reason that Joe Biden is the nominee and not anyone else. They are the textbook definition of his "base". You are trying to diminish his viability as a candidate by stating that he got to be the nominee because he appealed to Republicans. That is wrong on its face.

If you say so buddy. Whatever helps you sleep at night. But thanks for reminding me why I don't like Joe Biden and the Democratic establishment.

[Stannis]

Sanders biggest issue was old voters, not black voters.

[GONYK]

I stand by my statement despite your needless insertion of race into the topic.



Nevermind that older african american and latino voters tend to be more socially conservative than most people are willing to acknowledge.

Insertion of race?

It's an inescapable and irrefutable truth that black voters are the reason that Joe Biden is the nominee and not anyone else. They are the textbook definition of his "base". You are trying to diminish his viability as a candidate by stating that he got to be the nominee because he appealed to Republicans. That is wrong on its face.

If you say so buddy. Whatever helps you sleep at night. But thanks for reminding me why I don't like Joe Biden and the Democratic establishment.

Because of math?

Very interesting that you cut out the part of my post that addressed your assertion

[Knickfan1982]

Insertion of race?

It's an inescapable and irrefutable truth that black voters are the reason that Joe Biden is the nominee and not anyone else. They are the textbook definition of his "base". You are trying to diminish his viability as a candidate by stating that he got to be the nominee because he appealed to Republicans. That is wrong on its face.

If you say so buddy. Whatever helps you sleep at night. But thanks for reminding me why I don't like Joe Biden and the Democratic establishment.

Because of math?

What because I am not Asian I am supposed to hate math.






FYI, it was an admittedly lame joke about the needless insertion of race into a topic that's only tangentially connected to race.

[GONYK]

Sanders biggest issue was old voters, not black voters.

Sanders definitely had issues with black voters

[GONYK]

If you say so buddy. Whatever helps you sleep at night. But thanks for reminding me why I don't like Joe Biden and the Democratic establishment.

Because of math?

What because I am not Asian I am supposed to hate math.






FYI, it was an admittedly lame joke about the needless insertion of race into a topic that's only tangentially connected to race.

[Knickfan1982]

Anyway (without inserting race into things) what do you guys think Biden would be willing to do to win over Bernie voters.

[Phish Tank]

Sanders biggest issue was old voters, not black voters.

Sanders definitely had issues with black voters

yep, especially in the South.

Also doesn't help that more old people vote in elections than young people.

[duetta]

How much of a problem this will end up being for Biden? The Never Biden movement being led by progressives. I am leaning to side with this movement and am in a number of these groups, I wonder if there is enough support to really hurt Biden vs Trump.

This is the Susan Sarandon mentality (Trump could be better than Hillary, because it will lead to a progressive winning in 2020...).

It didn't pan out in 2020 and will likely not pan out in 2024.

People need to get over themselves.

[Kampuchea]

How much of a problem this will end up being for Biden? The Never Biden movement being led by progressives. I am leaning to side with this movement and am in a number of these groups, I wonder if there is enough support to really hurt Biden vs Trump.

This is the Susan Sarandon mentality (Trump could be better than Hillary, because it will lead to a progressive winning in 2020...).

It didn't pan out in 2020 and will likely not pan out in 2024.

People need to get over themselves.

Some of the groups I am in have taken polls to see what people will do now that Bernie is out, majority said Trump followed by write in Bernie and Not vote 3rd.

Maybe people need to be burned by Trump for another term to be taught a lesson.

[HarthorneWingo]

Sanders biggest issue was old voters, not black voters.

Sanders definitely had issues with black voters

His "issues" with older black voters is that he was not a part of Obama's administration. What else could it be? His policies will benefit them more than any other candidate.

Btw, I meant to ask you, now that I know you support the same issues that Sanders championed, who did you vote for in the Texas primary?

[HarthorneWingo]

I'd be for Katie Porter as VP

[Clyde_Style]

Spoiler:

I think history shows more than that is necessary, because it failed in 2016. But we are in a crucial moment so this isn't going to be a typical election. I fear people may "rally around the flag" in a crisis like they did in 2004.

There are mile long bread lines already. NGO food banks in the USA are already depleting their cash reserves to feed people because their usual donors are donations from supermarkets giving expiring items and restaurant excess food supply. Even usual food drive sources from citizens are drying up because people are keeping their canned goods for themselves instead of reaching into their pantry.

If private organizations trying to make up the shortfall that government food subsidies are not covering for what are now tens of millions of people with no money and no food, how do you expect people to rally around the flag?

The devastation has only just begun. By this Summer we're talking about serious crime issues as people get desperate and law enforcement is cut in half by the virus.

Social disorder will be a big issue going into the election and it is not going to get better between now and the election, but significantly worse. I'm preparing for it. Are you prepared for it? Maybe you're in a safe apartment building in the city, but many of us are not. But since you got laid off, maybe you have to move soon. I hope you have a family that will take you in. There's tens of millions of people out there that don't have fallback options.

And I don't think Trump can win on a law and order platform since many will consider him the reason things fell apart. He's the most lawless individual imaginable.

That's true in a sense, I'm effectively already in a bread line as I'm waiting for my unemployment check like 12 million other people are. If the election was today, Trump may lose. But we don't know how things will recover by November. If we get the doomsday "riots in the streets" scenario you describe, being in a post-apocalyptic Manhattan would be the last place in which someone would be safe. But I'd also be participating and supporting the protest movement as I think they are long overdue and have already been calling for a yellow vest movement. I am ready and prepared for mass civil disobedience and believe we need it more now than ever. We should make occupy wall street look like a picnic and occupy the whole island. The final fallback option should be a revolution, nothing less. It's becoming increasingly clear to many that we have nothing left to lose. I hope it happens. That would give me a ray of hope.

I don't know and I won't dig too deep into the rabbit hole on the Ukraine issue but in 2016 people were practically begging for Trump to be the nominee, some may say uplifting him as a pied piper candidate, because it would be an easy win. We know how that turned out. If I recall correctly you strongly believed that once the evidence came out from Mueller and russiagate that it would take down Trump, and the MSNBC pundits had the plot all mapped out and assured everyone it would be the end of him. But it wasn't. Then the thought was that impeachment would have him removed and certainly his own party would turn on him because the case against him was so very strong, but there was never even a chance. Not only that, both of these things strengthened the support for Trump and boosted his chances of re-election. Now we are to believe Trump is scared of Biden. You'll have to excuse my skepticism!

Biden had been coronated as the front runner for a long time, but despite that his campaign looked dead in the water as of February and it took a tremendous coordinated effort by the party to coalesce around him using his win in a solid GOP state in which he had poured all his resources as a springboard and having the other candidates in a suspiciously packed field drop out and endorse him at targeted times to carry him to this nomination. I just don't really buy his strength as a candidate. I have just personally never seen any genuine enthusiastic support for him amongst the masses. Also I don't think he'll perform well vs Trump on the debate stage.

I'm not saying Sanders would have won or would even do any better, at this point that ship has sailed and there's no reason to discuss him. But it would be a folly to write off Trump or believe he's scared after everything we've seen since 2016. I'm originally from the south as I was born in Florida and raised in Kentucky and I visit family down there on occasion. It's a rabid fanatical cult. He really could shoot someone and not lose support. The virus is a blessing in the sense that it might stop him from filling football stadiums with his klan rallies.

I honestly feel the most generous thing I can do to help out is to shut up and stop talking about the election. I was already planning to do so but this is still a fresh topic that warrants some final predictions and thoughts. But after this I'm going radio silent on this entire election. Because I don't have anything nice to say about what happened over the course of the past 5 years, and if you don't have anything nice to say, well, you know how it goes.

One other thing though, at some point we probably need to be honest that progressives/leftists have fundamental and perhaps irreconcilable differences with the (let's call it the biden wing or establishment wing or "centrist" or whatever you prefer) of the dem party and vice versa. We just don't have the same values or vision for what this country is supposed to be. There is a tangible genuine dislike between people in these camps, I'm sure you see it and feel it when you post on twitter or here. So why should we cover our eyes and ears and blame the russians or the gop for this divide and write off anybody who expresses their discontent as a russian agent, as opposed to facing up to the tough reality that there's a real tangible ideological divide on the issues? We are repeatedly told our agenda is impossible and told we need to fall in line while getting nothing in return. But we aren't going to stop demanding medicare for all or a green new deal or economic justice for working class people. It's literally life and death for some people. Now more than ever. The virus highlights the contradictions in the system. This is just an appetizer for the climate crisis, the response to this is a test balloon for the climate crisis. Gonna be a wild decade. Edit: I meant to mention that AOC recently said “in any other country Joe Biden and I would not be in the same party.” I tend to agree

OK, Chicken Soup is made and on the stove so here goes:

You have a lot to lose. Revolution as Anarchy does not lead to the implementation of progressive strategies. It leads to more strongmen, sometimes in the guise of leftist uniforms. Revolution in the form of street battles will not lead to a better future for your baby. True progressive reform takes time and it requires some degree of stability to happen. The best opportunity to make reforms is the period we now are in and will be in for the foreseeable future. It is wise to capitalize on that. Why do you think I've encouraged Sanders voters to push Biden to left?

There were three problems with the investigation, none of which have anything to do with Trump's guilt or his connections to Russia.

One is Mueller was by no means a radical so he played by the rules as he thought they were. He said very clearly that if Trump were not President the book would have been thrown at him based on what Mueller found.

Second was the report was heavily redacted. Pelosi just got her hands on the unredacted version of the report literally the other day when an appeals judge said Barr had to turn over the full report. Be a little more patient.

Third was the GOP Senate was never going to convict Trump. The technical term is impeachment when the House votes, so he was impeached, but he was not convicted by the Senate. That should not engender a drop of skepticism about Trump's guilt, merely that he still has one firewall left to protect him.

And, no, Trump did not gain any voters because of the impeachment. It may have hardened the support of his base, but that's neither here nor there electorally. I know more about Trump's connections to Russia than a book could hold at this point and if you think that he got away with it, think again. Win in November and he's going to spend the rest of his life in court and in prison. He got off for now, that's all.

You're talking to a Warren fan. I was rooting for her real hard. Nobody coronated anyone. Media channels and pollsters take the pulse all the time and if anything the media loves shifting sentiment to have something to talk about. Warren was ahead of Biden in the polls at one point so everybody had their shot.

As far as debating, Biden won SC off his prior debate performance, not just off the african american vote. People are repeating something because of videos compilations of his brain farts and gaffes, but the compilations of Trump are clearly worse and that still doesn't matter. What matters is head to head with Trump and that is not going to be his issue.

Joe is not an idiot. He was VP for 8 years and a Senator for a long time before that. That he is not as quick due to age or if his mind sometimes wanders does not take away from his ability to orate or debate effectively enough to punish a bully like Trump. Biden is not a wallflower and he is not a vegetable. He shows fire when he needs to and he will again. He has more than enough ability to spank Trump and leave him flailing for a response.

I'm not writing off Trump. Why do you think I'm doing this with you? I want us to take the threat seriously.

Yes, it is very much a cult and it is true then that this crisis may have a silver lining. Let's not squander it.

I totally understand and respect any decision to unplug (but please vote). My prayer is for a Democrat sweep. Then I can unplug for a long while. I'm burnt out on this and wish for nothing more than to exorcise Trump from my brain.

I don't feel like I'm what you describe. I have no allegiance to Joe Biden. I have a very strong vested interest in the survival of the planet and the preservation of democratic processes. You know the rest of that train of thought so ..........

I am a left-winger. I've lived through some stuff. My POV is based on what I've seen and what I know is the outcome if we lose. There will be no coming back from 4 more years of this current GOP. That's all she wrote. I completely disavow this premise that you and I are on opposite sides of a fence or on greatly different parts of the spectrum.

I think I've gone as far as possible to extend some extra respect for Sanders supporters while conveying my sense of urgency, but I reject the concept that you want something entirely different than I do. Not true, but you may want it now and you may feel talked down to when I or someone else says you can't get it all now.

I'm not playing the generational card, but it seems pretty common to see generic put-downs that older voters don't get it and are freezing out younger Sanders voters. It's the opposite. We do get it. You may not like our version of pragmatic leftism, but that doesn't make us less left than you, just that we are shooting for a path to an outcome where we can have greater success.

Talk of revolution is useless to older leftists. We've heard it many times and we know that in a two party system you have one party that has calcified into a criminal organization and an other one that is full of strife precisely because it has to represent diversity and it is a bitch to accomplish that. The Democratic party has always had more in-fighting and division, because it is the only way to craft a representative party unless we create a third party and so far that hasn't happened. I've voted for third parties before and I'm still waiting for the reason to vote for them again. Right now, that isn't there and Bernie chose to fight for the Democratic nomination when he could have run as a third party.

As far as the Russia connection, I explained earlier one of the basic factors in this perception. When armies of bots clearly pushing RT propaganda are often mirrored exactly by Sanders supporters those questions will arise. Why did I rip Wingo a new one? I love the guy, but none of us has any business calling Biden a rapist as if it is fact based on an accusation that was originated by a woman who published the most outlandish love poem to Vlad Putin.

Due process is a thing. I'll defend it as the most American thing we've got.

It is fairly obvious Trump is in Putin's pocket, but when Sanders supporters play directly into the hands of the Russian propaganda machine it will always raise questions. I would have voted for Bernie if he were the nominee, but he's got his own baggage and at this point I'm content to leave it at the door and walk away from these points of contention.

Your vision is not impossible, but it takes time. You know what I would respect? Younger leftists not throwing in the towel and saying it's Bernie or nothing or that nobody respects them. The real lefties I grew up with rolled up their sleeves and slugged it out for decades. Four years of Sanders and his supporters want to give up. That's defeatism, not leftism. And the leftists I knew did listen to older heads. Not everybody was a 60s caricature that said don't trust anyone over 30.

The only thing I'm telling you is your agenda will require taking over the Democratic party in stages or building a third party movement. We might get some pretty left legislation next year if we sweep, because this is a huge historical moment that may allow more moderate politicians to support democratic socialist ideals. But that is the only way it is going to happen right now and you really should not resent being told that, because it is simply the way things are. You want things to be different? Then you hang in there and stick to your guns, but giving up is not something I respect or recognize as a committed leftist. It's a life long struggle. Like most things worthwhile.