OT: Democratic Primary Thread

[HarthorneWingo]

This is encouraging

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-left-bernie-sanders-medicare-college-debt_n_5e8f8dcfc5b6d641a6bc05d9

[Clyde_Style]

This is encouraging

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-left-bernie-sanders-medicare-college-debt_n_5e8f8dcfc5b6d641a6bc05d9

Well, it was what I was advocating. Bernie is playing the game, as he should. Onwards

[Pointgod]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

You know this post just goes to show you why Bernie wasn’t able to build a greater coalition. If supporters are a reflection of the candidate then you’re just showing exactly why Warren was right to not back Bernie.

Thing is, that line of thinking only applies to Bernie Sanders.

Should people not back Biden because the BidenBros called his sexual assault accuser a "lyin bitch" on Twitter? Should we not vote for him because his surrogate (a white woman) told Nina Tuner (a black woman) that she doesn't have the right to quote MLK? Then later referring to her as an "angry black woman" in her "apology" (if you want to call it that).

Trust me you really don’t want to go there. All supporters of candidates have a certain amount of anger, it’s politics but Sanders supporters have been far and away the worst. Attacking a man with ALS because he supported Warren and the death threats that were sent to the heads of the Nevada Culinary Union are just two egregious examples.

All Warren was doing was posting a nice message to Bernie acknowledging what he’s done for politics. Completely apolitical. The fact that even that brought negativity just highlights the problem. Hopefully it’s all just blowing off steam and this doesn’t carry into the general.

[Knickfan1982]

Sanders biggest issue was old voters, not black voters.

Sanders definitely had issues with black voters

His "issues" with older black voters is that he was not a part of Obama's administration. What else could it be? His policies will benefit them more than any other candidate.

Btw, I meant to ask you, now that I know you support the same issues that Sanders championed, who did you vote for in the Texas primary?

Not only are Bernie's policies more beneficial for Biden's so called base but Biden has a more extensive history of supporting policies that hurt his supposed base.

[GONYK]

Sanders biggest issue was old voters, not black voters.

Sanders definitely had issues with black voters

His "issues" with older black voters is that he was not a part of Obama's administration. What else could it be? His policies will benefit them more than any other candidate.

Btw, I meant to ask you, now that I know you support the same issues that Sanders championed, who did you vote for in the Texas primary?

Bernie's issues with black voters is that he failed to convince them to vote for him.

His policy heavy platform didn't resonate with them 2 elections in a row.

It's the same issue Warren had. Buttigieg and Klobuchar too.

Basically everyone but Biden.

Why do you think that is?

(and you think I'm answering your question after you've been dodging mine all day? )

[Clyde_Style]

Bernie's issues with black voters is that he failed to convince them to vote for him.

His policy heavy platform didn't resonate with them 2 elections in a row.

It's the same issue Warren had. Buttigieg and Klobuchar too.

Basically everyone but Biden.

Church ladies love them some Biden. Ain't no two ways bout it. Don't matter if it's because of Obama, they just do.

[Knickfan1982]

Bernie's issues with black voters is that he failed to convince them to vote for him.

His policy heavy platform didn't resonate with them 2 elections in a row.

It's the same issue Warren had. Buttigieg and Klobuchar too.

Basically everyone but Biden.

Church ladies love them some Biden. Ain't no two ways bout it. Don't matter if it's because of Obama, they just do.

Those church ladies didn't give a fig about Biden when he ran for President in 2008. Now he's their best friend. I wonder what happened between then and now that made such a big difference.

[robillionaire]

Spoiler:

There are mile long bread lines already. NGO food banks in the USA are already depleting their cash reserves to feed people because their usual donors are donations from supermarkets giving expiring items and restaurant excess food supply. Even usual food drive sources from citizens are drying up because people are keeping their canned goods for themselves instead of reaching into their pantry.

If private organizations trying to make up the shortfall that government food subsidies are not covering for what are now tens of millions of people with no money and no food, how do you expect people to rally around the flag?

The devastation has only just begun. By this Summer we're talking about serious crime issues as people get desperate and law enforcement is cut in half by the virus.

Social disorder will be a big issue going into the election and it is not going to get better between now and the election, but significantly worse. I'm preparing for it. Are you prepared for it? Maybe you're in a safe apartment building in the city, but many of us are not. But since you got laid off, maybe you have to move soon. I hope you have a family that will take you in. There's tens of millions of people out there that don't have fallback options.

And I don't think Trump can win on a law and order platform since many will consider him the reason things fell apart. He's the most lawless individual imaginable.

That's true in a sense, I'm effectively already in a bread line as I'm waiting for my unemployment check like 12 million other people are. If the election was today, Trump may lose. But we don't know how things will recover by November. If we get the doomsday "riots in the streets" scenario you describe, being in a post-apocalyptic Manhattan would be the last place in which someone would be safe. But I'd also be participating and supporting the protest movement as I think they are long overdue and have already been calling for a yellow vest movement. I am ready and prepared for mass civil disobedience and believe we need it more now than ever. We should make occupy wall street look like a picnic and occupy the whole island. The final fallback option should be a revolution, nothing less. It's becoming increasingly clear to many that we have nothing left to lose. I hope it happens. That would give me a ray of hope.

I don't know and I won't dig too deep into the rabbit hole on the Ukraine issue but in 2016 people were practically begging for Trump to be the nominee, some may say uplifting him as a pied piper candidate, because it would be an easy win. We know how that turned out. If I recall correctly you strongly believed that once the evidence came out from Mueller and russiagate that it would take down Trump, and the MSNBC pundits had the plot all mapped out and assured everyone it would be the end of him. But it wasn't. Then the thought was that impeachment would have him removed and certainly his own party would turn on him because the case against him was so very strong, but there was never even a chance. Not only that, both of these things strengthened the support for Trump and boosted his chances of re-election. Now we are to believe Trump is scared of Biden. You'll have to excuse my skepticism!

Biden had been coronated as the front runner for a long time, but despite that his campaign looked dead in the water as of February and it took a tremendous coordinated effort by the party to coalesce around him using his win in a solid GOP state in which he had poured all his resources as a springboard and having the other candidates in a suspiciously packed field drop out and endorse him at targeted times to carry him to this nomination. I just don't really buy his strength as a candidate. I have just personally never seen any genuine enthusiastic support for him amongst the masses. Also I don't think he'll perform well vs Trump on the debate stage.

I'm not saying Sanders would have won or would even do any better, at this point that ship has sailed and there's no reason to discuss him. But it would be a folly to write off Trump or believe he's scared after everything we've seen since 2016. I'm originally from the south as I was born in Florida and raised in Kentucky and I visit family down there on occasion. It's a rabid fanatical cult. He really could shoot someone and not lose support. The virus is a blessing in the sense that it might stop him from filling football stadiums with his klan rallies.

I honestly feel the most generous thing I can do to help out is to shut up and stop talking about the election. I was already planning to do so but this is still a fresh topic that warrants some final predictions and thoughts. But after this I'm going radio silent on this entire election. Because I don't have anything nice to say about what happened over the course of the past 5 years, and if you don't have anything nice to say, well, you know how it goes.

One other thing though, at some point we probably need to be honest that progressives/leftists have fundamental and perhaps irreconcilable differences with the (let's call it the biden wing or establishment wing or "centrist" or whatever you prefer) of the dem party and vice versa. We just don't have the same values or vision for what this country is supposed to be. There is a tangible genuine dislike between people in these camps, I'm sure you see it and feel it when you post on twitter or here. So why should we cover our eyes and ears and blame the russians or the gop for this divide and write off anybody who expresses their discontent as a russian agent, as opposed to facing up to the tough reality that there's a real tangible ideological divide on the issues? We are repeatedly told our agenda is impossible and told we need to fall in line while getting nothing in return. But we aren't going to stop demanding medicare for all or a green new deal or economic justice for working class people. It's literally life and death for some people. Now more than ever. The virus highlights the contradictions in the system. This is just an appetizer for the climate crisis, the response to this is a test balloon for the climate crisis. Gonna be a wild decade. Edit: I meant to mention that AOC recently said “in any other country Joe Biden and I would not be in the same party.” I tend to agree

OK, Chicken Soup is made and on the stove so here goes:

You have a lot to lose. Revolution as Anarchy does not lead to the implementation of progressive strategies. It leads to more strongmen, sometimes in the guise of leftist uniforms. Revolution in the form of street battles will not lead to a better future for your baby. True progressive reform takes time and it requires some degree of stability to happen. The best opportunity to make reforms is the period we now are in and will be in for the foreseeable future. It is wise to capitalize on that. Why do you think I've encouraged Sanders voters to push Biden to left?

There were three problems with the investigation, none of which have anything to do with Trump's guilt or his connections to Russia.

One is Mueller was by no means a radical so he played by the rules as he thought they were. He said very clearly that if Trump were not President the book would have been thrown at him based on what Mueller found.

Second was the report was heavily redacted. Pelosi just got her hands on the unredacted version of the report literally the other day when an appeals judge said Barr had to turn over the full report. Be a little more patient.

Third was the GOP Senate was never going to convict Trump. The technical term is impeachment when the House votes, so he was impeached, but he was not convicted by the Senate. That should not engender a drop of skepticism about Trump's guilt, merely that he still has one firewall left to protect him.

And, no, Trump did not gain any voters because of the impeachment. It may have hardened the support of his base, but that's neither here nor there electorally. I know more about Trump's connections to Russia than a book could hold at this point and if you think that he got away with it, think again. Win in November and he's going to spend the rest of his life in court and in prison. He got off for now, that's all.

You're talking to a Warren fan. I was rooting for her real hard. Nobody coronated anyone. Media channels and pollsters take the pulse all the time and if anything the media loves shifting sentiment to have something to talk about. Warren was ahead of Biden in the polls at one point so everybody had their shot.

As far as debating, Biden won SC off his prior debate performance, not just off the african american vote. People are repeating something because of videos compilations of his brain farts and gaffes, but the compilations of Trump are clearly worse and that still doesn't matter. What matters is head to head with Trump and that is not going to be his issue.

Joe is not an idiot. He was VP for 8 years and a Senator for a long time before that. That he is not as quick due to age or if his mind sometimes wanders does not take away from his ability to orate or debate effectively enough to punish a bully like Trump. Biden is not a wallflower and he is not a vegetable. He shows fire when he needs to and he will again. He has more than enough ability to spank Trump and leave him flailing for a response.

I'm not writing off Trump. Why do you think I'm doing this with you? I want us to take the threat seriously.

Yes, it is very much a cult and it is true then that this crisis may have a silver lining. Let's not squander it.

I totally understand and respect any decision to unplug (but please vote). My prayer is for a Democrat sweep. Then I can unplug for a long while. I'm burnt out on this and wish for nothing more than to exorcise Trump from my brain.

I don't feel like I'm what you describe. I have no allegiance to Joe Biden. I have a very strong vested interest in the survival of the planet and the preservation of democratic processes. You know the rest of that train of thought so ..........

I am a left-winger. I've lived through some stuff. My POV is based on what I've seen and what I know is the outcome if we lose. There will be no coming back from 4 more years of this current GOP. That's all she wrote. I completely disavow this premise that you and I are on opposite sides of a fence or on greatly different parts of the spectrum.

I think I've gone as far as possible to extend some extra respect for Sanders supporters while conveying my sense of urgency, but I reject the concept that you want something entirely different than I do. Not true, but you may want it now and you may feel talked down to when I or someone else says you can't get it all now.

I'm not playing the generational card, but it seems pretty common to see generic put-downs that older voters don't get it and are freezing out younger Sanders voters. It's the opposite. We do get it. You may not like our version of pragmatic leftism, but that doesn't make us less left than you, just that we are shooting for a path to an outcome where we can have greater success.

Talk of revolution is useless to older leftists. We've heard it many times and we know that in a two party system you have one party that has calcified into a criminal organization and an other one that is full of strife precisely because it has to represent diversity and it is a bitch to accomplish that. The Democratic party has always had more in-fighting and division, because it is the only way to craft a representative party unless we create a third party and so far that hasn't happened. I've voted for third parties before and I'm still waiting for the reason to vote for them again. Right now, that isn't there and Bernie chose to fight for the Democratic nomination when he could have run as a third party.

As far as the Russia connection, I explained earlier one of the basic factors in this perception. When armies of bots clearly pushing RT propaganda are often mirrored exactly by Sanders supporters those questions will arise. Why did I rip Wingo a new one? I love the guy, but none of us has any business calling Biden a rapist as if it is fact based on an accusation that was originated by a woman who published the most outlandish love poem to Vlad Putin.

Due process is a thing. I'll defend it as the most American thing we've got.

It is fairly obvious Trump is in Putin's pocket, but when Sanders supporters play directly into the hands of the Russian propaganda machine it will always raise questions. I would have voted for Bernie if he were the nominee, but he's got his own baggage and at this point I'm content to leave it at the door and walk away from these points of contention.

Your vision is not impossible, but it takes time. You know what I would respect? Younger leftists not throwing in the towel and saying it's Bernie or nothing or that nobody respects them. The real lefties I grew up with rolled up their sleeves and slugged it out for decades. Four years of Sanders and his supporters want to give up. That's defeatism, not leftism. And the leftists I knew did listen to older heads. Not everybody was a 60s caricature that said don't trust anyone over 30.

The only thing I'm telling you is your agenda will require taking over the Democratic party in stages or building a third party movement. We might get some pretty left legislation next year if we sweep, because this is a huge historical moment that may allow more moderate politicians to support democratic socialist ideals. But that is the only way it is going to happen right now and you really should not resent being told that, because it is simply the way things are. You want things to be different? Then you hang in there and stick to your guns, but giving up is not something I respect or recognize as a committed leftist. It's a life long struggle. Like most things worthwhile.

Thanks for the reply on all that. I'd say there's a difference in giving up on certain approaches or tactics that are not working, such as considering the idea that this electoral process can't provide us with the change that humanity needs for survival or won't provide it fast enough to save us or maybe the idea that the democratic party can be "taken over" at all, and giving up on our fight, which I would never do. I will be continuing to educate agitate and organize with the groups I do that with on a local level. I think since we lost this chapter in history, we are now going to have to re-analyze the moment and reconsider what our best approach going forward is.

I know the things I say sound defeatist because we are in dark times. We live in a society that is rapidly accelerating to the right at a faster pace year after year. The US is losing it's global hegemony and with that is turning to fascism in reaction. Even worse, the party and people that you would expect to typically be fighting for reforms like the new deal that pulled us out of the great depression are not doing that, they are actually pushing back against reforms, while antagonizing advocates and calling them children. They are not interested in even having the dialogue. The structural barriers in place in the DNC lead me to believe that we never really could have taken over that party. They definitely weren't going to lay down and let us win, but man...we never had a chance. The platform proposed by Sanders, which we now know isn't happening, may have represented the last real hope for a smooth transition during this upcoming bumpy process of decline. You said "The best opportunity to make reforms is the period we now are in and will be in for the foreseeable future." and I agree with that, but I think we have now missed that opportunity at least for the immediate future, if not for decades.

There is a direct contradiction between "it takes time" and the limited time we have to reverse course on climate change. There's a contradiction between an unspecified time and the millions who have now lost their health insurance during a pandemic because they lost their jobs and now can't afford health care. Beyond that, Biden like Hillary before him isn't even saying these things take time. He's using right wing talking points such as saying universal health care is a pie in the sky idea that didn't save Italy so it doesn't work and we don't need it. Hillary told us that it would "never ever happen". He attacked social democracy in his campaign, refuted the idea that we need real change by reassuring the wealthy class that "nothing will fundamentally change" when he is elected, and had said he has no empathy for young people who are struggling. So reforms just aren't coming, there isn't a timetable, nobody in power will be fighting for them. This entire electoral process has been a burial of medicare for all. They aren't even content with just winning and moving on this time like they did in 2016, they're salting our fields. As this country is currently constructed, things are not going to get better without a massive overhaul. It's not defeatism it's just the material reality. So we are at an impasse, and people are going to soon have to start making hard choices. It's not about wanting it now because free stuff would be cool, or feeling talked down to, I can handle all that, but it's simple acknowledgement that people will die if we fail to address these issues now and that we don't have time left to make it happen.

But again I'm not a nihilist, in some ways I think it's helpful to see a resolution to some of the uncertainties and speculation that we had over the course of these campaigns. I'm not a "I wish trump would lose so we can go back to brunch" person either. While it would enjoy seeing him lose, beating the symptom in Trump in my eyes wouldn't be a major accomplishment in and of itself as the conditions that made him possible would still be in place and we'd still need to change that. But it didn't work out and I think we will need to step away for a second to zoom out and determine what we do next. I don't have all the answers, I'm not trying to completely write off electoralism as a tool or disparage the people who think there could be change with the dems and tried their damnest to make it happen. But we may need a fundamentally new approach. Maybe start by building more on the grassroots level in workplaces and through protests strikes and labor movements during the years to come.

[Clyde_Style]

Bernie's issues with black voters is that he failed to convince them to vote for him.

His policy heavy platform didn't resonate with them 2 elections in a row.

It's the same issue Warren had. Buttigieg and Klobuchar too.

Basically everyone but Biden.

Church ladies love them some Biden. Ain't no two ways bout it. Don't matter if it's because of Obama, they just do.

Those church ladies didn't give a fig about Biden when he ran for President in 2008. Now he's their best friend. I wonder what happened between then and now that made such a big difference.

See bold above

[GONYK]

Church ladies love them some Biden. Ain't no two ways bout it. Don't matter if it's because of Obama, they just do.

Those church ladies didn't give a fig about Biden when he ran for President in 2008. Now he's their best friend. I wonder what happened between then and now that made such a big difference.

See bold above

The overwhelming majority of Democrats love Obama. His favorability ratings among Dems is in the mid 90's. It's not surprising that anyone associated with him gets a nice halo effect.

[Clyde_Style]

Spoiler:

That's true in a sense, I'm effectively already in a bread line as I'm waiting for my unemployment check like 12 million other people are. If the election was today, Trump may lose. But we don't know how things will recover by November. If we get the doomsday "riots in the streets" scenario you describe, being in a post-apocalyptic Manhattan would be the last place in which someone would be safe. But I'd also be participating and supporting the protest movement as I think they are long overdue and have already been calling for a yellow vest movement. I am ready and prepared for mass civil disobedience and believe we need it more now than ever. We should make occupy wall street look like a picnic and occupy the whole island. The final fallback option should be a revolution, nothing less. It's becoming increasingly clear to many that we have nothing left to lose. I hope it happens. That would give me a ray of hope.

I don't know and I won't dig too deep into the rabbit hole on the Ukraine issue but in 2016 people were practically begging for Trump to be the nominee, some may say uplifting him as a pied piper candidate, because it would be an easy win. We know how that turned out. If I recall correctly you strongly believed that once the evidence came out from Mueller and russiagate that it would take down Trump, and the MSNBC pundits had the plot all mapped out and assured everyone it would be the end of him. But it wasn't. Then the thought was that impeachment would have him removed and certainly his own party would turn on him because the case against him was so very strong, but there was never even a chance. Not only that, both of these things strengthened the support for Trump and boosted his chances of re-election. Now we are to believe Trump is scared of Biden. You'll have to excuse my skepticism!

Biden had been coronated as the front runner for a long time, but despite that his campaign looked dead in the water as of February and it took a tremendous coordinated effort by the party to coalesce around him using his win in a solid GOP state in which he had poured all his resources as a springboard and having the other candidates in a suspiciously packed field drop out and endorse him at targeted times to carry him to this nomination. I just don't really buy his strength as a candidate. I have just personally never seen any genuine enthusiastic support for him amongst the masses. Also I don't think he'll perform well vs Trump on the debate stage.

I'm not saying Sanders would have won or would even do any better, at this point that ship has sailed and there's no reason to discuss him. But it would be a folly to write off Trump or believe he's scared after everything we've seen since 2016. I'm originally from the south as I was born in Florida and raised in Kentucky and I visit family down there on occasion. It's a rabid fanatical cult. He really could shoot someone and not lose support. The virus is a blessing in the sense that it might stop him from filling football stadiums with his klan rallies.

I honestly feel the most generous thing I can do to help out is to shut up and stop talking about the election. I was already planning to do so but this is still a fresh topic that warrants some final predictions and thoughts. But after this I'm going radio silent on this entire election. Because I don't have anything nice to say about what happened over the course of the past 5 years, and if you don't have anything nice to say, well, you know how it goes.

One other thing though, at some point we probably need to be honest that progressives/leftists have fundamental and perhaps irreconcilable differences with the (let's call it the biden wing or establishment wing or "centrist" or whatever you prefer) of the dem party and vice versa. We just don't have the same values or vision for what this country is supposed to be. There is a tangible genuine dislike between people in these camps, I'm sure you see it and feel it when you post on twitter or here. So why should we cover our eyes and ears and blame the russians or the gop for this divide and write off anybody who expresses their discontent as a russian agent, as opposed to facing up to the tough reality that there's a real tangible ideological divide on the issues? We are repeatedly told our agenda is impossible and told we need to fall in line while getting nothing in return. But we aren't going to stop demanding medicare for all or a green new deal or economic justice for working class people. It's literally life and death for some people. Now more than ever. The virus highlights the contradictions in the system. This is just an appetizer for the climate crisis, the response to this is a test balloon for the climate crisis. Gonna be a wild decade. Edit: I meant to mention that AOC recently said “in any other country Joe Biden and I would not be in the same party.” I tend to agree

OK, Chicken Soup is made and on the stove so here goes:

You have a lot to lose. Revolution as Anarchy does not lead to the implementation of progressive strategies. It leads to more strongmen, sometimes in the guise of leftist uniforms. Revolution in the form of street battles will not lead to a better future for your baby. True progressive reform takes time and it requires some degree of stability to happen. The best opportunity to make reforms is the period we now are in and will be in for the foreseeable future. It is wise to capitalize on that. Why do you think I've encouraged Sanders voters to push Biden to left?

There were three problems with the investigation, none of which have anything to do with Trump's guilt or his connections to Russia.

One is Mueller was by no means a radical so he played by the rules as he thought they were. He said very clearly that if Trump were not President the book would have been thrown at him based on what Mueller found.

Second was the report was heavily redacted. Pelosi just got her hands on the unredacted version of the report literally the other day when an appeals judge said Barr had to turn over the full report. Be a little more patient.

Third was the GOP Senate was never going to convict Trump. The technical term is impeachment when the House votes, so he was impeached, but he was not convicted by the Senate. That should not engender a drop of skepticism about Trump's guilt, merely that he still has one firewall left to protect him.

And, no, Trump did not gain any voters because of the impeachment. It may have hardened the support of his base, but that's neither here nor there electorally. I know more about Trump's connections to Russia than a book could hold at this point and if you think that he got away with it, think again. Win in November and he's going to spend the rest of his life in court and in prison. He got off for now, that's all.

You're talking to a Warren fan. I was rooting for her real hard. Nobody coronated anyone. Media channels and pollsters take the pulse all the time and if anything the media loves shifting sentiment to have something to talk about. Warren was ahead of Biden in the polls at one point so everybody had their shot.

As far as debating, Biden won SC off his prior debate performance, not just off the african american vote. People are repeating something because of videos compilations of his brain farts and gaffes, but the compilations of Trump are clearly worse and that still doesn't matter. What matters is head to head with Trump and that is not going to be his issue.

Joe is not an idiot. He was VP for 8 years and a Senator for a long time before that. That he is not as quick due to age or if his mind sometimes wanders does not take away from his ability to orate or debate effectively enough to punish a bully like Trump. Biden is not a wallflower and he is not a vegetable. He shows fire when he needs to and he will again. He has more than enough ability to spank Trump and leave him flailing for a response.

I'm not writing off Trump. Why do you think I'm doing this with you? I want us to take the threat seriously.

Yes, it is very much a cult and it is true then that this crisis may have a silver lining. Let's not squander it.

I totally understand and respect any decision to unplug (but please vote). My prayer is for a Democrat sweep. Then I can unplug for a long while. I'm burnt out on this and wish for nothing more than to exorcise Trump from my brain.

I don't feel like I'm what you describe. I have no allegiance to Joe Biden. I have a very strong vested interest in the survival of the planet and the preservation of democratic processes. You know the rest of that train of thought so ..........

I am a left-winger. I've lived through some stuff. My POV is based on what I've seen and what I know is the outcome if we lose. There will be no coming back from 4 more years of this current GOP. That's all she wrote. I completely disavow this premise that you and I are on opposite sides of a fence or on greatly different parts of the spectrum.

I think I've gone as far as possible to extend some extra respect for Sanders supporters while conveying my sense of urgency, but I reject the concept that you want something entirely different than I do. Not true, but you may want it now and you may feel talked down to when I or someone else says you can't get it all now.

I'm not playing the generational card, but it seems pretty common to see generic put-downs that older voters don't get it and are freezing out younger Sanders voters. It's the opposite. We do get it. You may not like our version of pragmatic leftism, but that doesn't make us less left than you, just that we are shooting for a path to an outcome where we can have greater success.

Talk of revolution is useless to older leftists. We've heard it many times and we know that in a two party system you have one party that has calcified into a criminal organization and an other one that is full of strife precisely because it has to represent diversity and it is a bitch to accomplish that. The Democratic party has always had more in-fighting and division, because it is the only way to craft a representative party unless we create a third party and so far that hasn't happened. I've voted for third parties before and I'm still waiting for the reason to vote for them again. Right now, that isn't there and Bernie chose to fight for the Democratic nomination when he could have run as a third party.

As far as the Russia connection, I explained earlier one of the basic factors in this perception. When armies of bots clearly pushing RT propaganda are often mirrored exactly by Sanders supporters those questions will arise. Why did I rip Wingo a new one? I love the guy, but none of us has any business calling Biden a rapist as if it is fact based on an accusation that was originated by a woman who published the most outlandish love poem to Vlad Putin.

Due process is a thing. I'll defend it as the most American thing we've got.

It is fairly obvious Trump is in Putin's pocket, but when Sanders supporters play directly into the hands of the Russian propaganda machine it will always raise questions. I would have voted for Bernie if he were the nominee, but he's got his own baggage and at this point I'm content to leave it at the door and walk away from these points of contention.

Your vision is not impossible, but it takes time. You know what I would respect? Younger leftists not throwing in the towel and saying it's Bernie or nothing or that nobody respects them. The real lefties I grew up with rolled up their sleeves and slugged it out for decades. Four years of Sanders and his supporters want to give up. That's defeatism, not leftism. And the leftists I knew did listen to older heads. Not everybody was a 60s caricature that said don't trust anyone over 30.

The only thing I'm telling you is your agenda will require taking over the Democratic party in stages or building a third party movement. We might get some pretty left legislation next year if we sweep, because this is a huge historical moment that may allow more moderate politicians to support democratic socialist ideals. But that is the only way it is going to happen right now and you really should not resent being told that, because it is simply the way things are. You want things to be different? Then you hang in there and stick to your guns, but giving up is not something I respect or recognize as a committed leftist. It's a life long struggle. Like most things worthwhile.

Thanks for the reply on all that. I'd say there's a difference in giving up on certain approaches or tactics that are not working, such as considering the idea that this electoral process can't provide us with the change that humanity needs for survival or won't provide it fast enough to save us or maybe the idea that the democratic party can be "taken over" at all, and giving up on our fight, which I would never do. I will be continuing to educate agitate and organize with the groups I do that with on a local level. I think since we lost this chapter in history, we are now going to have to re-analyze the moment and reconsider what our best approach going forward is.

I know the things I say sound defeatist because we are in dark times. We live in a society that is rapidly accelerating to the right at a faster pace year after year. The US is losing it's global hegemony and with that is turning to fascism in reaction. Even worse, the party and people that you would expect to typically be fighting for reforms like the new deal that pulled us out of the great depression are not doing that, they are actually pushing back against reforms, while antagonizing advocates and calling them children. They are not interested in even having the dialogue. The structural barriers in place in the DNC lead me to believe that we never really could have taken over that party. They definitely weren't going to lay down and let us win, but man...we never had a chance. The platform proposed by Sanders, which we now know isn't happening, may have represented the last real hope for a smooth transition during this upcoming bumpy process of decline. You said "The best opportunity to make reforms is the period we now are in and will be in for the foreseeable future." and I agree with that, but I think we have now missed that opportunity at least for the immediate future, if not for decades.

There is a direct contradiction between "it takes time" and the limited time we have to reverse course on climate change. There's a contradiction between an unspecified time and the millions who have now lost their health insurance during a pandemic because they lost their jobs and now can't afford health care. Beyond that, Biden like Hillary before him isn't even saying these things take time. He's using right wing talking points such as saying universal health care is a pie in the sky idea that didn't save Italy so it doesn't work and we don't need it. Hillary told us that it would "never ever happen". He attacked social democracy in his campaign, refuted the idea that we need real change by reassuring the wealthy class that "nothing will fundamentally change" when he is elected, and had said he has no empathy for young people who are struggling. So reforms just aren't coming, there isn't a timetable, nobody in power will be fighting for them. This entire electoral process has been a burial of medicare for all. They aren't even content with just winning and moving on this time like they did in 2016, they're salting our fields. As this country is currently constructed, things are not going to get better without a massive overhaul. It's not defeatism it's just the material reality. So we are at an impasse, and people are going to soon have to start making hard choices. It's not about wanting it now because free stuff would be cool, or feeling talked down to, I can handle all that, but it's simple acknowledgement that people will die if we fail to address these issues now and that we don't have time left to make it happen.

But again I'm not a nihilist, in some ways I think it's helpful to see a resolution to some of the uncertainties and speculation that we had over the course of these campaigns. I'm not a "I wish trump would lose so we can go back to brunch" person either. While it would enjoy seeing him lose, beating the symptom in Trump in my eyes wouldn't be a major accomplishment in and of itself as the conditions that made him possible would still be in place and we'd still need to change that. But it didn't work out and I think we will need to step away for a second to zoom out and determine what we do next. I don't have all the answers, I'm not trying to completely write off electoralism as a tool or disparage the people who think there could be change with the dems and tried their damnest to make it happen. But we may need a fundamentally new approach. Maybe start by building more on the grassroots level in workplaces and through protests strikes and labor movements during the years to come.

The movement you're a part of is still very young. The planet is tough. Scientists say the ocean can fully rebound in only 30 years if the right measures are taken. You may think we don't have time, but even if the planet is in its worst shape ever a lot can happen in the span of four years. Trump trashed the climate accords that every major nation had signed on to and has done everything he can to trash the environment. Those accords and regulations will be reversed quickly back to the right side of the ledger with a majority.

Biden actually has talked about investing in alternative energy and creating green jobs, so I think you need to walk off the ledge and look again. He has posted his plan to create 10 million jobs in government backed alternative energy sectors. It is easy to trash Biden or Hillary, but she was also planning to do something very similar if she had won.

TBH, I think there is too much doomsday talk and not enough openness to the possibility a lot can happen with the Democrat party fully in charge for the first time in a long time. They have not held the WH and both houses for a decade now. Between that and keeping the Supreme Court from turning GOP for generations to come, we have a lot of possibilities for positive outcomes with a full sweep by the Democrats. Warren and Sanders will both a much bigger seat at the table and the party will have a mandate for change.

And Biden is already moving towards lowering the age for medicare which is clearly a first step towards walking down the age for coverage by the majority of the population. That can become the first steps towards universal health care. It shouldn't matter if that is due to Sanders or Warren, though it probably is. What matters is momentum in the right direction is how you knock down the dominoes. The first step is often the toughest one to get politically and it already looks like it is happening.

We don't have a choice about time. It is more important right now to not slip into fascism, but the reality is we're now doing both important steps. We're building unity towards defeating the truly life threatening opposition and making arrangements to fold more progressive agendas into the platform. It is looking far better than many of you were stating just days ago.

Also, yes, local grassroots organizing is exactly how you build a lasting progressive movement. We're so internetty at this point that the most powerful thing for the younger progessives to build is a personal network of community based alliances now and into the future. I don't think technology is ever going to fully change that so keep going doing what you're doing. It will pay off. I believe in you.

[Clyde_Style]

Those church ladies didn't give a fig about Biden when he ran for President in 2008. Now he's their best friend. I wonder what happened between then and now that made such a big difference.

See bold above

The overwhelming majority of Democrats love Obama. His favorability ratings among Dems is in the mid 90's. It's not surprising that anyone associated with him gets a nice halo effect.

Absolutely. I was disappointed by Obama in many ways, but I also know he started off with bad hand and ended up with an obstructionist GOP making it hell for him to legislate. But I love Obama the person. He's a wonderful personality and he clearly would have been the perfect president for this current crisis.

Biden's connection to Obama is very strong and he is not going to attack Obamacare directly for that reason alone. It would be a political blunder to try and distance himself from Obama. That he is now entertaining forms of modifying the health care system means he'll try to find a way to make positive concessions to the left wing while preserving Obama's legacy (until he gets elected at least). This is to be expected. If he is going to really tackle health care reform in a more radical way he is going to get elected first. That's just the political reality due to his association with Obama. He is definitely running in Obama's shadow and he'd be a fool not to.

[spree8]

You know this post just goes to show you why Bernie wasn’t able to build a greater coalition. If supporters are a reflection of the candidate then you’re just showing exactly why Warren was right to not back Bernie.

Thing is, that line of thinking only applies to Bernie Sanders.

Should people not back Biden because the BidenBros called his sexual assault accuser a "lyin bitch" on Twitter? Should we not vote for him because his surrogate (a white woman) told Nina Tuner (a black woman) that she doesn't have the right to quote MLK? Then later referring to her as an "angry black woman" in her "apology" (if you want to call it that).

Trust me you really don’t want to go there. All supporters of candidates have a certain amount of anger, it’s politics but Sanders supporters have been far and away the worst. Attacking a man with ALS because he supported Warren and the death threats that were sent to the heads of the Nevada Culinary Union are just two egregious examples.

All Warren was doing was posting a nice message to Bernie acknowledging what he’s done for politics. Completely apolitical. The fact that even that brought negativity just highlights the problem. Hopefully it’s all just blowing off steam and this doesn’t carry into the general.

I want to.

So you’re saying you personally know of every single case of every politician’s fans saying negative things about other candidates? And that you were able to line them all up and clearly see how Bernie’s were the worst?

And you also personally know each and every one of those people sitting behind their computer or phone typing out those messages? Are you 100% sure they’re actually Bernie supporters and not people working to give his supporters a bad name by pretending to be them? Not like that’s ever happened before right?

Don’t take what the MSM tells you as gospel...

[Knickfan1982]

Absolutely. I was disappointed by Obama in many ways, but I also know he started off with bad hand and ended up with an obstructionist GOP making it hell for him to legislate. But I love Obama the person. He's a wonderful personality and he clearly would have been the perfect president for this current crisis.

He started off with a bad hand but he played it the worst way imaginable when he spent so much time trying to build consensus with Republicans. They were never going to work with him and then when they took over Congress they completely neutered his Presidency. Now Joe "Once Trump is out of office Republicans will work with us" Biden is doubling down on that strategy.

[Clyde_Style]

Absolutely. I was disappointed by Obama in many ways, but I also know he started off with bad hand and ended up with an obstructionist GOP making it hell for him to legislate. But I love Obama the person. He's a wonderful personality and he clearly would have been the perfect president for this current crisis.

He started off with a bad hand but he played it the worst way imaginable when he spent so much time trying to build consensus with Republicans. They were never going to work with him and then when they took over Congress they completely neutered his Presidency. Now Joe "Once Trump is out of office Republicans will work with us" Biden is doubling down on that strategy.

The Democrats are aiming for a sweep so they have control of the WH and Congress. The 2018 elections and the current circumstances make it very clear the Senate is highly obtainable now. That's the objective, regardless of your opinion of Obama

[HarthorneWingo]

Absolutely. I was disappointed by Obama in many ways, but I also know he started off with bad hand and ended up with an obstructionist GOP making it hell for him to legislate. But I love Obama the person. He's a wonderful personality and he clearly would have been the perfect president for this current crisis.

He started off with a bad hand but he played it the worst way imaginable when he spent so much time trying to build consensus with Republicans. They were never going to work with him and then when they took over Congress they completely neutered his Presidency. Now Joe "Once Trump is out of office Republicans will work with us" Biden is doubling down on that strategy.

I hear you on Obama but it appears - at least for now - that Biden is triangulating to the left, not the right. Let’s see if he continues on that path.

[Clyde_Style]

Absolutely. I was disappointed by Obama in many ways, but I also know he started off with bad hand and ended up with an obstructionist GOP making it hell for him to legislate. But I love Obama the person. He's a wonderful personality and he clearly would have been the perfect president for this current crisis.

He started off with a bad hand but he played it the worst way imaginable when he spent so much time trying to build consensus with Republicans. They were never going to work with him and then when they took over Congress they completely neutered his Presidency. Now Joe "Once Trump is out of office Republicans will work with us" Biden is doubling down on that strategy.

I hear you on Obama but it appears - at least for now - that Biden is triangulating to the left, not the right. Let’s see if he continues on that path.

It is clearly the trend. I think Warren's chances for VP are higher now, but I still don't expect her to get the nod.

Instead, I think Gretchen Whitmer is the dark horse. She's a very tough politician who has gone to war with the GOP in Michigan and she is the kind of person who maintains relationships with the opposition. I find this idea that working with the other side of the aisle is somehow weak to be wrong. Every good politician does it, even when they have the majority.

Whitmer has enough progressive leanings to be considered left of center and to satisfy most of the party. And the GOP is really afraid of her. She would massacre Pence in a VP debate. She is a strong orator and she left a mark on Michigan politics with her fiery speeches in defense of labor unions. She has the character to be president. I think she is a much better choice than Klobuchar if they're leaning towards a woman from the mid-west.

Her policy statements in Michigan include:

$15 Hour Min Wage
Legal Weed
Medicaid Expansion
Criminal Justice Reforms
Daycare Initiatives
Gay and Reproductive Rights

And she knows how to pitch how to pay for left of center initiatives which is something moderates always want to hear.

[Clyde_Style]

Biden moves quickly to exorcise ‘the ghosts of 2016’
The former veep is mindful of the toxic dynamic that characterized Bernie’s fraught relationship with Hillary Clinton.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/08/biden-sanders-2016-2020-176169

[Knickfan1982]

I hear you on Obama but it appears - at least for now - that Biden is triangulating to the left, not the right. Let’s see if he continues on that path.

He's just taking steps to shore up his left flank. Governing is a whole different story.

[Knickfan1982]

I find this idea that working with the other side of the aisle is somehow weak to be wrong. Every good politician does it, even when they have the majority.

Working with the other side is only good so long as they are willing to work with you. If they are going to drag their feet and demonize you rather than work with you then run the mofos over. Get done what you need to get done and let history sort it out. Republicans whined about Obamacare but when they had the power to repeal and replace it they didn't. They knew better because people had time to learn to like it.

Whitmer has enough progressive leanings to be considered left of center and to satisfy most of the party. And the GOP is really afraid of her. She would massacre Pence in a VP debate. She is a strong orator and she left a mark on Michigan politics with her fiery speeches in defense of labor unions. She has the character to be president. I think she is a much better choice than Klobuchar if they're leaning towards a woman from the mid-west.

If she helps Biden win Michigan and Wisconsin and helps in Pennsylvania then I would love her on the ticket. But I am thinking he might lean towards a minority to secure as big a turnout there as he can.

The Democrats are aiming for a sweep so they have control of the WH and Congress. The 2018 elections and the current circumstances make it very clear the Senate is highly obtainable now. That's the objective, regardless of your opinion of Obama

I think Obama's status as the first African American President and how his temperament compares to the Nativist dumpster fire that followed me makes him look like a much better President than he was. Would he be a huge upgrade over Trump. Without a doubt. But he was not an effective President and part of that was self inflicted. I am worried Biden learned nothing from his mistakes.