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Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge

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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#81 » by HarthorneWingo » Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:52 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:About this trial per the OP:

Judge Ellis is badgering, but every step of the way he has granted the prosecution the upper hand over the defense's objections. It is not uncommon for a judge to come off as heavy-handed towards the side that has overwhelming evidence to its advantage in order to appear impartial.

Ellis is known in his district for being a crotchety MF, but more important is this will be the defining case of Ellis' career as a judge. Most judges never have a case of this historical nature cross their desks.

He is older and will probably retire soon and it is very likely the man does not want his name to be associated with rubber stamping the take-down of a president and his men. It appears he'd rather go down in history as having been impartial or even tough on the winning team than worry about being remembered as a cordial guy.

So, while he is sometimes being a pain in the butt and quibbling over some details, he has not effectively done anything to block the Mueller team's prosecution.


When I first started defending civil rights cases against the City of Philadelphia, they had me defend the city against pro se' federal civil rights claims by prison inmates. The judges would bend over backwards for the inmates during trial because they didn't have lawyers, most of the time, and they didn't want an appeals court sending back the case because he/she didn't give the inmate a fair shot.

But here, in the Manafort case, Judge Ellis, imo, is playing around with this notion too much and is injecting himself into this trial too often. A judge should be like a good umpire or ref. The game/trial is not about him. He also showed himself to be sloppy and forgetful. He made a fool of himself around the world with that mess about the expert witness being in the courtroom during testimony.

I wouldn't give him too much credit here. Like, at all.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#82 » by HarthorneWingo » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:18 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
Im Coming Home wrote:
dakomish23 wrote:
Read on Twitter


:lol:

Wow BallSacBounce must be feeling this 'great economy' we're having. Thank god the countries imaginary debt that none of us are personally responsible for is being paid for and the rich is getting richer!


I don't think you understand how it is humanly possible to support this administration's economic policies as blows against the empire while they print money to pay off the exploding debt they created. I mean, after all, the central bank is controlled by Trump, not Soros.


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/10/workers-see-their-paychecks-get-smaller-as-inflation-continues-to-rise.html

Workers see their paychecks get smaller as inflation continues to rise

-Worker paychecks in July actually declined when accounting for inflation, according to Labor Department figures.
-On a year-over-year basis, wages were essentially flat in real terms, dragged down by price pressures from housing costs and other areas.
-The lag in wage growth comes while most other areas of the economy are performing well.


Jeff Cox | @JeffCoxCNBCcom
8:56 AM ET Fri, 10 Aug 2018 | 01:52

While the rest of the economy pointed higher in July, American workers took a step backwards.

Hourly and weekly earnings languished when factoring in the rise in cost of living, according to figures the Labor Department released Friday.

Average weekly earnings actually decreased 0.2 percent over the one-month period and increased only fractionally from the same period a year ago. Average hourly earnings were unchanged over the month and actually two cents lower than July 2017.

The readings came during a month that saw core inflation rise at its fastest pace since September 2008. The Consumer Price Index increased 0.2 percent month over month for an annual gain of 2.4 percent, up one-tenth of a percentage point from June and driven primarily by a jump in rental costs.

The decline puts real wages at their worst level since October 2012.

"It was the real-wage story that caught our attention," said Ian Lyngen, head of U.S. rates strategy at BMO Capital Markets. The level "speaks to the 'ugly side of reflation' as it undermines consumers' real purchasing power."

The figures contrast with a Labor Department reading earlier this month that showed the employment cost index rising at a 2.8 percent year-over-year rate in the second quarter, the fastest gain since the third quarter of 2008. That indicator, which is followed closely by the Federal Reserve, does not incorporate an inflation adjustment.

Not adjusted for inflation, average hourly earnings rose 2.7 percent in July, slightly lower than the second-quarter pace, while average weekly earnings increased 3 percent.

Lack of real worker pay growth has been a key missing link for an economy that otherwise looks powerful.

Gross domestic product rose 4.1 percent in the second quarter, the best gain in nearly four years, and is on pace to grow 3.4 percent in the third quarter, according to CNBC's Rapid Update gauge of economist estimates.

Job growth also has been solid, with July's gain of 157,000 in nonfarm payrolls a blip in an otherwise strong year for growth. Payrolls have risen an average of 215,000 a month in 2018, the best pace since 2015 and 30,000 per month ahead of the same period in 2017.

Consumer confidence also remains good despite the weak wage growth. The University of Michigan consumer sentiment index is up 4.8 percent year over year, while the index of current economic conditions has gained 0.9 percent.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#83 » by Clyde_Style » Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:20 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:About this trial per the OP:

Judge Ellis is badgering, but every step of the way he has granted the prosecution the upper hand over the defense's objections. It is not uncommon for a judge to come off as heavy-handed towards the side that has overwhelming evidence to its advantage in order to appear impartial.

Ellis is known in his district for being a crotchety MF, but more important is this will be the defining case of Ellis' career as a judge. Most judges never have a case of this historical nature cross their desks.

He is older and will probably retire soon and it is very likely the man does not want his name to be associated with rubber stamping the take-down of a president and his men. It appears he'd rather go down in history as having been impartial or even tough on the winning team than worry about being remembered as a cordial guy.

So, while he is sometimes being a pain in the butt and quibbling over some details, he has not effectively done anything to block the Mueller team's prosecution.


When I first started defending civil rights cases against the City of Philadelphia, they had me defend the city against pro se' federal civil rights claims by prison inmates. The judges would bend over backwards for the inmates during trial because they didn't have lawyers, most of the time, and they didn't want an appeals court sending back the case because he/she didn't give the inmate a fair shot.

But here, in the Manafort case, Judge Ellis, imo, is playing around with this notion too much and is injecting himself into this trial too often. A judge should be like a good umpire or ref. The game/trial is not about him. He also showed himself to be sloppy and forgetful. He made a fool of himself around the world with that mess about the expert witness being in the courtroom during testimony.

I wouldn't give him too much credit here. Like, at all.


I agree Ellis is too much and really should rein himself him, but it felt useful to point out some of these considerations as well. I'm not sure everyone would intuitively understand these factors regardless of their political orientation.

Ellis is not making a good account of himself overall. Yes, he is sloppy and forgetful. But aside from the key observations that he seems to be overdoing the counterbalancing gamesmanship, he has not granted the defense much in the way of their objections to the prosecution. In the end, that's all that will truly matter UNLESS he has unfairly biased the jury's ability to reason with the actual facts which are overwhelmingly prejudicial to Manafort.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#84 » by HarthorneWingo » Sat Aug 11, 2018 7:59 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:About this trial per the OP:

Judge Ellis is badgering, but every step of the way he has granted the prosecution the upper hand over the defense's objections. It is not uncommon for a judge to come off as heavy-handed towards the side that has overwhelming evidence to its advantage in order to appear impartial.

Ellis is known in his district for being a crotchety MF, but more important is this will be the defining case of Ellis' career as a judge. Most judges never have a case of this historical nature cross their desks.

He is older and will probably retire soon and it is very likely the man does not want his name to be associated with rubber stamping the take-down of a president and his men. It appears he'd rather go down in history as having been impartial or even tough on the winning team than worry about being remembered as a cordial guy.

So, while he is sometimes being a pain in the butt and quibbling over some details, he has not effectively done anything to block the Mueller team's prosecution.


When I first started defending civil rights cases against the City of Philadelphia, they had me defend the city against pro se' federal civil rights claims by prison inmates. The judges would bend over backwards for the inmates during trial because they didn't have lawyers, most of the time, and they didn't want an appeals court sending back the case because he/she didn't give the inmate a fair shot.

But here, in the Manafort case, Judge Ellis, imo, is playing around with this notion too much and is injecting himself into this trial too often. A judge should be like a good umpire or ref. The game/trial is not about him. He also showed himself to be sloppy and forgetful. He made a fool of himself around the world with that mess about the expert witness being in the courtroom during testimony.

I wouldn't give him too much credit here. Like, at all.


I agree Ellis is too much and really should rein himself him, but it felt useful to point out some of these considerations as well. I'm not sure everyone would intuitively understand these factors regardless of their political orientation.

Ellis is not making a good account of himself overall. Yes, he is sloppy and forgetful. But aside from the key observations that he seems to be overdoing the counterbalancing gamesmanship, he has not granted the defense much in the way of their objections to the prosecution. In the end, that's all that will truly matter UNLESS he has unfairly biased the jury's ability to reason with the actual facts which are overwhelmingly prejudicial to Manafort.


That's the fear from the prosecution's POV. Inexperienced juror's will sometimes look to take their Q (pun intended) from the judge. In a case of this importance and given the high quality representation Manafort is getting from his high-priced lawyers, Ellis should really be in the background. All the evidentiary issues should've been handled pretrial so that the actual trial before the jury moves pretty seamlessly. He's acting out like a little child imo. "Look at me! Look at me! I'm in charge!" I hated this kind of judge. Just call "balls and strikes" and get the fck out of the way.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#85 » by Clyde_Style » Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:50 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
When I first started defending civil rights cases against the City of Philadelphia, they had me defend the city against pro se' federal civil rights claims by prison inmates. The judges would bend over backwards for the inmates during trial because they didn't have lawyers, most of the time, and they didn't want an appeals court sending back the case because he/she didn't give the inmate a fair shot.

But here, in the Manafort case, Judge Ellis, imo, is playing around with this notion too much and is injecting himself into this trial too often. A judge should be like a good umpire or ref. The game/trial is not about him. He also showed himself to be sloppy and forgetful. He made a fool of himself around the world with that mess about the expert witness being in the courtroom during testimony.

I wouldn't give him too much credit here. Like, at all.


I agree Ellis is too much and really should rein himself him, but it felt useful to point out some of these considerations as well. I'm not sure everyone would intuitively understand these factors regardless of their political orientation.

Ellis is not making a good account of himself overall. Yes, he is sloppy and forgetful. But aside from the key observations that he seems to be overdoing the counterbalancing gamesmanship, he has not granted the defense much in the way of their objections to the prosecution. In the end, that's all that will truly matter UNLESS he has unfairly biased the jury's ability to reason with the actual facts which are overwhelmingly prejudicial to Manafort.


That's the fear from the prosecution's POV. Inexperienced juror's will sometimes look to take their Q (pun intended) from the judge. In a case of this importance and given the high quality representation Manafort is getting from his high-priced lawyers, Ellis should really be in the background. All the evidentiary issues should've been handled pretrial so that the actual trial before the jury moves pretty seamlessly. He's acting out like a little child imo. "Look at me! Look at me! I'm in charge!" I hated this kind of judge. Just call "balls and strikes" and get the fck out of the way.


I fully agree

Since I'm clearly aligned with the prosecution in my own way I guess I went out of my way not to emphasize my bias, thus my summary overview of how the judge's behavior may be interpreted without assuming he was playing for one team in particular.

But it is not professional however you slice it. Ellis had a reputation for this going into the trial and maybe he's getting a little old in the brain as well.

And maybe my take on it that he wanted to be seen as impartial by yapping at the prosecutors for posterity's sake is wrong. Maybe he really is acting out because it is his 15 minutes of fame and his vanity needs to imprint itself on the trial. In that light, your explanation is most congruent.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#86 » by kenneyy88 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:25 am

Jonathan starks wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/08/09/mueller-team-files-complaint-against-manafort-trial-judge-over-latest-reprimand.amp.html

Anyone can indict a ham sandwich. Sounds like Muller isn’t too confident about winning. Oh and this case really nothing to do with Russian collusion, which isn’t even a crime to begin with.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/08/01/trump-says-collusion-isnt-a-crime-hes-right-its-actually-many-crimes/?utm_term=.2abcae117d3d
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#87 » by Clyde_Style » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:08 am

kenneyy88 wrote:
Jonathan starks wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/08/09/mueller-team-files-complaint-against-manafort-trial-judge-over-latest-reprimand.amp.html

Anyone can indict a ham sandwich. Sounds like Muller isn’t too confident about winning. Oh and this case really nothing to do with Russian collusion, which isn’t even a crime to begin with.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/08/01/trump-says-collusion-isnt-a-crime-hes-right-its-actually-many-crimes/?utm_term=.2abcae117d3d


It's always peculiar when a Trump supporter such as yourself posts an article link that completely undermines your own POV.

One has to ask:

Did you even read the article?

Or did you see the first part of the title and ignored the last part of the title?

What about this article was of interest to you?

Here is the article:

Spoiler:
Trump says collusion isn’t a crime. He’s right. It’s actually many crimes.

President Trump’s defender-in-chief, Rudolph W. Giuliani, departed from his client’s usual mantra of “no collusion” on Monday by arguing that even if the Trump campaign colluded with Russia, that is not a crime. On Tuesday, Trump repeated on Twitter that “collusion is not a crime.” While he and Giuliani are technically correct, that’s only because collusion is a rubric that in fact encompasses many crimes. As criminal law experts with a collective century of experience prosecuting and defending criminal charges, we believe the sudden pivot to this baseless legal defense signals concern among Trump and his attorneys about emerging evidence that will show collusion.

That term has come to be shorthand for the possibility that the Trump campaign, its advisers or the president himself coordinated with Russia, a hostile foreign power, to help Trump win the election. The argument that such coordination would be lawful is striking, including the fact that it follows 191 charges against 35 individuals and companies brought by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III, which have yielded five guilty pleas. Taken together, that work spells out the many crimes Russia committed to attempt to affect the outcome of the 2016 election.

That conduct was deeply illegal, and it logically follows that if the president or his campaign team actually worked with the Russians in connection with their efforts, they, too, could be liable. That is not only common sense: It is also the law, with a raft of specific “collusion” crimes implicated.


Many fall under the rubric of conspiracy: an agreement to further illegal action. The core federal conspiracy statute, 18 U.S.C. § 371, would be triggered here if there were any agreement by Trump or those around him with Russian agents to do something that the law forbids. For example, if in or around the infamous June 2016 Trump Tower meeting, the Russians and a Trump representative tacitly or explicitly agreed about the release or use of illegally obtained information, that could plausibly support a conspiracy charge. Indeed, there is already some evidence of just that, including Donald Trump Jr.’s infamous email that “if it’s what you say I love it.”

To take another example of a “collusion” crime, the special counsel’s February and July 2018 indictments against alleged Russian hackers charged them with conspiracy to defraud the United States. Their cyber-misconduct defrauded the government by interfering with federal elections. If Trump campaign operatives were a part of that — say, by coordinating the release of hacked DNC emails with Russian operatives or planning speeches or other campaign events around those releases — then the campaign, too, could plausibly be a part of the conspiracy to defraud the United States.

Again, there is already enough evidence to warrant searching review, such as the fact that within hours of the Russian offer of dirt, Trump announced a major speech promising revelations about his opponent (a speech that he would promise again the following week but never actually deliver). Such campaign encouragement of, or involvement in, illegal Russian activity would not just implicate conspiracy law. The Russian conduct appears to have violated federal anti-hacking statutes, such as the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and the Wiretap Act. The Wiretap Act is especially relevant because we know that the Russians infected the DNC servers with malware that transmitted emails to the Russians’ main server in real time. They were literally intercepting communications, one of the precise activities the act criminalizes.

Even if members of the campaign didn’t encourage or direct that hack, they could still be subject to prosecution for aiding and abetting — in lay terms, helping — a violation of those statutes. Aiding and abetting liability could become a factor if, for example, campaign operatives took a step to make sure the Russians used the hacked materials in the best possible way. (Indeed, campaign aides could even have directly violated the Wiretap Act if they themselves used the contents of any illegally intercepted communication, if they knew or had reason to know the communication was intercepted illegally.)

Nor do the varieties of possible criminal “collusion” with Russia end there. If the president knowingly accepted something of value from the Russians, such as harmful information about his opponent, that could be an illegal contribution by foreign nationals. That is an election law crime. If he accepted that information in exchange for the promise of some action (like taking a more accommodating posture toward the Russian invasion of Ukraine) that he or his administration would take if his campaign proved successful, that could constitute an illegal quid pro quo — that is, bribery.

What if the Russians only informed the campaign about their plans to disseminate stolen emails and the campaign did something that interfered with the crime being uncovered? That could constitute the crime of misprision of a felony — essentially of hiding crimes. And if any money transfers were involved to further the collusion — like if the Russians wired money to the National Rifle Association to avoid FEC scrutiny — that could violate the money laundering statute. Both would be forms of illegally working with the Russians. In a word: “collusion.”

This list merely scratches the surface of the criminal collusion that may be under investigation. In addition, there is of course the coverup of the collusion, which implicates an entirely different set of crimes. Michael T. Flynn and George Papadopoulos have pleaded guilty to the crime of making false statements in connection with their dealings with Russia. If recent reports that the president knew about the Trump Tower meeting are true, then Trump Jr. could face similar charges based on his congressional testimony to the contrary.

Those reports are of course based upon Michael Cohen’s alleged willingness to testify about what Trump knew of the meeting with the Russians and when he knew it. It could well be that there is other corroborating evidence that Cohen has or the special counsel has gotten from other sources. There is also the corroboration offered by common sense: Given everything we know about the paterfamilias, it seems unlikely that no one would have told him about a meeting that was important enough to draw the entire senior leadership of the campaign.

As seasoned criminal law practitioners, we recognize when the tactic of arguing that facts do not constitute a crime is used. That typically happens only after it becomes clear that the prosecution will be able to prove the conduct at issue occurred. That makes it particularly interesting that the president and his lawyer are now reaching for the “collusion is not a crime” defense, after the reports that Cohen will say Trump knew of the Trump Tower meeting.

At any rate, there can be no question of the legitimate law enforcement interest in investigating the many “collusion” crimes that may have been committed. The American people have a fundamental right to know if the president of the United States worked with Russia to win the election and undermine American democracy. The president and his lawyers’ embrace of the extraordinary defense that such collusion would be entirely lawful raises an obvious question: Why are they so busy defending collusion if there was none?


In summary, you did not read the article before posting it.

It is savage in its approximation of the many guilty charges that can be levied against Trump.

What is it with you guys who get all wound up and insulting towards people who post actual facts yet you can't even bother to read a single article yourselves? And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously?
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#88 » by HarthorneWingo » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:08 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
kenneyy88 wrote:
Jonathan starks wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/08/09/mueller-team-files-complaint-against-manafort-trial-judge-over-latest-reprimand.amp.html

Anyone can indict a ham sandwich. Sounds like Muller isn’t too confident about winning. Oh and this case really nothing to do with Russian collusion, which isn’t even a crime to begin with.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/08/01/trump-says-collusion-isnt-a-crime-hes-right-its-actually-many-crimes/?utm_term=.2abcae117d3d


It's always peculiar when a Trump supporter such as yourself posts an article link that completely undermines your own POV.

One has to ask:

Did you even read the article?

Or did you see the first part of the title and ignored the last part of the title?

What about this article was of interest to you?

Here is the article:

Spoiler:
Trump says collusion isn’t a crime. He’s right. It’s actually many crimes.

President Trump’s defender-in-chief, Rudolph W. Giuliani, departed from his client’s usual mantra of “no collusion” on Monday by arguing that even if the Trump campaign colluded with Russia, that is not a crime. On Tuesday, Trump repeated on Twitter that “collusion is not a crime.” While he and Giuliani are technically correct, that’s only because collusion is a rubric that in fact encompasses many crimes. As criminal law experts with a collective century of experience prosecuting and defending criminal charges, we believe the sudden pivot to this baseless legal defense signals concern among Trump and his attorneys about emerging evidence that will show collusion.

That term has come to be shorthand for the possibility that the Trump campaign, its advisers or the president himself coordinated with Russia, a hostile foreign power, to help Trump win the election. The argument that such coordination would be lawful is striking, including the fact that it follows 191 charges against 35 individuals and companies brought by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III, which have yielded five guilty pleas. Taken together, that work spells out the many crimes Russia committed to attempt to affect the outcome of the 2016 election.

That conduct was deeply illegal, and it logically follows that if the president or his campaign team actually worked with the Russians in connection with their efforts, they, too, could be liable. That is not only common sense: It is also the law, with a raft of specific “collusion” crimes implicated.


Many fall under the rubric of conspiracy: an agreement to further illegal action. The core federal conspiracy statute, 18 U.S.C. § 371, would be triggered here if there were any agreement by Trump or those around him with Russian agents to do something that the law forbids. For example, if in or around the infamous June 2016 Trump Tower meeting, the Russians and a Trump representative tacitly or explicitly agreed about the release or use of illegally obtained information, that could plausibly support a conspiracy charge. Indeed, there is already some evidence of just that, including Donald Trump Jr.’s infamous email that “if it’s what you say I love it.”

To take another example of a “collusion” crime, the special counsel’s February and July 2018 indictments against alleged Russian hackers charged them with conspiracy to defraud the United States. Their cyber-misconduct defrauded the government by interfering with federal elections. If Trump campaign operatives were a part of that — say, by coordinating the release of hacked DNC emails with Russian operatives or planning speeches or other campaign events around those releases — then the campaign, too, could plausibly be a part of the conspiracy to defraud the United States.

Again, there is already enough evidence to warrant searching review, such as the fact that within hours of the Russian offer of dirt, Trump announced a major speech promising revelations about his opponent (a speech that he would promise again the following week but never actually deliver). Such campaign encouragement of, or involvement in, illegal Russian activity would not just implicate conspiracy law. The Russian conduct appears to have violated federal anti-hacking statutes, such as the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and the Wiretap Act. The Wiretap Act is especially relevant because we know that the Russians infected the DNC servers with malware that transmitted emails to the Russians’ main server in real time. They were literally intercepting communications, one of the precise activities the act criminalizes.

Even if members of the campaign didn’t encourage or direct that hack, they could still be subject to prosecution for aiding and abetting — in lay terms, helping — a violation of those statutes. Aiding and abetting liability could become a factor if, for example, campaign operatives took a step to make sure the Russians used the hacked materials in the best possible way. (Indeed, campaign aides could even have directly violated the Wiretap Act if they themselves used the contents of any illegally intercepted communication, if they knew or had reason to know the communication was intercepted illegally.)

Nor do the varieties of possible criminal “collusion” with Russia end there. If the president knowingly accepted something of value from the Russians, such as harmful information about his opponent, that could be an illegal contribution by foreign nationals. That is an election law crime. If he accepted that information in exchange for the promise of some action (like taking a more accommodating posture toward the Russian invasion of Ukraine) that he or his administration would take if his campaign proved successful, that could constitute an illegal quid pro quo — that is, bribery.

What if the Russians only informed the campaign about their plans to disseminate stolen emails and the campaign did something that interfered with the crime being uncovered? That could constitute the crime of misprision of a felony — essentially of hiding crimes. And if any money transfers were involved to further the collusion — like if the Russians wired money to the National Rifle Association to avoid FEC scrutiny — that could violate the money laundering statute. Both would be forms of illegally working with the Russians. In a word: “collusion.”

This list merely scratches the surface of the criminal collusion that may be under investigation. In addition, there is of course the coverup of the collusion, which implicates an entirely different set of crimes. Michael T. Flynn and George Papadopoulos have pleaded guilty to the crime of making false statements in connection with their dealings with Russia. If recent reports that the president knew about the Trump Tower meeting are true, then Trump Jr. could face similar charges based on his congressional testimony to the contrary.

Those reports are of course based upon Michael Cohen’s alleged willingness to testify about what Trump knew of the meeting with the Russians and when he knew it. It could well be that there is other corroborating evidence that Cohen has or the special counsel has gotten from other sources. There is also the corroboration offered by common sense: Given everything we know about the paterfamilias, it seems unlikely that no one would have told him about a meeting that was important enough to draw the entire senior leadership of the campaign.

As seasoned criminal law practitioners, we recognize when the tactic of arguing that facts do not constitute a crime is used. That typically happens only after it becomes clear that the prosecution will be able to prove the conduct at issue occurred. That makes it particularly interesting that the president and his lawyer are now reaching for the “collusion is not a crime” defense, after the reports that Cohen will say Trump knew of the Trump Tower meeting.

At any rate, there can be no question of the legitimate law enforcement interest in investigating the many “collusion” crimes that may have been committed. The American people have a fundamental right to know if the president of the United States worked with Russia to win the election and undermine American democracy. The president and his lawyers’ embrace of the extraordinary defense that such collusion would be entirely lawful raises an obvious question: Why are they so busy defending collusion if there was none?


In summary, you did not read the article before posting it.

It is savage in its approximation of the many guilty charges that can be levied against Trump.

What is it with you guys who get all wound up and insulting towards people who post actual facts yet you can't even bother to read a single article yourselves? And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously?


Maybe kenneyy88 is a lib?
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#89 » by Jeff Van Gully » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:19 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
kenneyy88 wrote:
Jonathan starks wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/08/09/mueller-team-files-complaint-against-manafort-trial-judge-over-latest-reprimand.amp.html

Anyone can indict a ham sandwich. Sounds like Muller isn’t too confident about winning. Oh and this case really nothing to do with Russian collusion, which isn’t even a crime to begin with.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2018/08/01/trump-says-collusion-isnt-a-crime-hes-right-its-actually-many-crimes/?utm_term=.2abcae117d3d


It's always peculiar when a Trump supporter such as yourself posts an article link that completely undermines your own POV.

One has to ask:

Did you even read the article?

Or did you see the first part of the title and ignored the last part of the title?

What about this article was of interest to you?

Here is the article:

Spoiler:
Trump says collusion isn’t a crime. He’s right. It’s actually many crimes.

President Trump’s defender-in-chief, Rudolph W. Giuliani, departed from his client’s usual mantra of “no collusion” on Monday by arguing that even if the Trump campaign colluded with Russia, that is not a crime. On Tuesday, Trump repeated on Twitter that “collusion is not a crime.” While he and Giuliani are technically correct, that’s only because collusion is a rubric that in fact encompasses many crimes. As criminal law experts with a collective century of experience prosecuting and defending criminal charges, we believe the sudden pivot to this baseless legal defense signals concern among Trump and his attorneys about emerging evidence that will show collusion.

That term has come to be shorthand for the possibility that the Trump campaign, its advisers or the president himself coordinated with Russia, a hostile foreign power, to help Trump win the election. The argument that such coordination would be lawful is striking, including the fact that it follows 191 charges against 35 individuals and companies brought by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III, which have yielded five guilty pleas. Taken together, that work spells out the many crimes Russia committed to attempt to affect the outcome of the 2016 election.

That conduct was deeply illegal, and it logically follows that if the president or his campaign team actually worked with the Russians in connection with their efforts, they, too, could be liable. That is not only common sense: It is also the law, with a raft of specific “collusion” crimes implicated.


Many fall under the rubric of conspiracy: an agreement to further illegal action. The core federal conspiracy statute, 18 U.S.C. § 371, would be triggered here if there were any agreement by Trump or those around him with Russian agents to do something that the law forbids. For example, if in or around the infamous June 2016 Trump Tower meeting, the Russians and a Trump representative tacitly or explicitly agreed about the release or use of illegally obtained information, that could plausibly support a conspiracy charge. Indeed, there is already some evidence of just that, including Donald Trump Jr.’s infamous email that “if it’s what you say I love it.”

To take another example of a “collusion” crime, the special counsel’s February and July 2018 indictments against alleged Russian hackers charged them with conspiracy to defraud the United States. Their cyber-misconduct defrauded the government by interfering with federal elections. If Trump campaign operatives were a part of that — say, by coordinating the release of hacked DNC emails with Russian operatives or planning speeches or other campaign events around those releases — then the campaign, too, could plausibly be a part of the conspiracy to defraud the United States.

Again, there is already enough evidence to warrant searching review, such as the fact that within hours of the Russian offer of dirt, Trump announced a major speech promising revelations about his opponent (a speech that he would promise again the following week but never actually deliver). Such campaign encouragement of, or involvement in, illegal Russian activity would not just implicate conspiracy law. The Russian conduct appears to have violated federal anti-hacking statutes, such as the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and the Wiretap Act. The Wiretap Act is especially relevant because we know that the Russians infected the DNC servers with malware that transmitted emails to the Russians’ main server in real time. They were literally intercepting communications, one of the precise activities the act criminalizes.

Even if members of the campaign didn’t encourage or direct that hack, they could still be subject to prosecution for aiding and abetting — in lay terms, helping — a violation of those statutes. Aiding and abetting liability could become a factor if, for example, campaign operatives took a step to make sure the Russians used the hacked materials in the best possible way. (Indeed, campaign aides could even have directly violated the Wiretap Act if they themselves used the contents of any illegally intercepted communication, if they knew or had reason to know the communication was intercepted illegally.)

Nor do the varieties of possible criminal “collusion” with Russia end there. If the president knowingly accepted something of value from the Russians, such as harmful information about his opponent, that could be an illegal contribution by foreign nationals. That is an election law crime. If he accepted that information in exchange for the promise of some action (like taking a more accommodating posture toward the Russian invasion of Ukraine) that he or his administration would take if his campaign proved successful, that could constitute an illegal quid pro quo — that is, bribery.

What if the Russians only informed the campaign about their plans to disseminate stolen emails and the campaign did something that interfered with the crime being uncovered? That could constitute the crime of misprision of a felony — essentially of hiding crimes. And if any money transfers were involved to further the collusion — like if the Russians wired money to the National Rifle Association to avoid FEC scrutiny — that could violate the money laundering statute. Both would be forms of illegally working with the Russians. In a word: “collusion.”

This list merely scratches the surface of the criminal collusion that may be under investigation. In addition, there is of course the coverup of the collusion, which implicates an entirely different set of crimes. Michael T. Flynn and George Papadopoulos have pleaded guilty to the crime of making false statements in connection with their dealings with Russia. If recent reports that the president knew about the Trump Tower meeting are true, then Trump Jr. could face similar charges based on his congressional testimony to the contrary.

Those reports are of course based upon Michael Cohen’s alleged willingness to testify about what Trump knew of the meeting with the Russians and when he knew it. It could well be that there is other corroborating evidence that Cohen has or the special counsel has gotten from other sources. There is also the corroboration offered by common sense: Given everything we know about the paterfamilias, it seems unlikely that no one would have told him about a meeting that was important enough to draw the entire senior leadership of the campaign.

As seasoned criminal law practitioners, we recognize when the tactic of arguing that facts do not constitute a crime is used. That typically happens only after it becomes clear that the prosecution will be able to prove the conduct at issue occurred. That makes it particularly interesting that the president and his lawyer are now reaching for the “collusion is not a crime” defense, after the reports that Cohen will say Trump knew of the Trump Tower meeting.

At any rate, there can be no question of the legitimate law enforcement interest in investigating the many “collusion” crimes that may have been committed. The American people have a fundamental right to know if the president of the United States worked with Russia to win the election and undermine American democracy. The president and his lawyers’ embrace of the extraordinary defense that such collusion would be entirely lawful raises an obvious question: Why are they so busy defending collusion if there was none?


In summary, you did not read the article before posting it.

It is savage in its approximation of the many guilty charges that can be levied against Trump.

What is it with you guys who get all wound up and insulting towards people who post actual facts yet you can't even bother to read a single article yourselves? And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously?


where do these assumptions about kenneyy88 come from?
RIP magnumt

welcome home, thibs.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#90 » by Clyde_Style » Sun Aug 12, 2018 6:27 am

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:


It's always peculiar when a Trump supporter such as yourself posts an article link that completely undermines your own POV.

One has to ask:

Did you even read the article?

Or did you see the first part of the title and ignored the last part of the title?

What about this article was of interest to you?

Here is the article:

Spoiler:
Trump says collusion isn’t a crime. He’s right. It’s actually many crimes.

President Trump’s defender-in-chief, Rudolph W. Giuliani, departed from his client’s usual mantra of “no collusion” on Monday by arguing that even if the Trump campaign colluded with Russia, that is not a crime. On Tuesday, Trump repeated on Twitter that “collusion is not a crime.” While he and Giuliani are technically correct, that’s only because collusion is a rubric that in fact encompasses many crimes. As criminal law experts with a collective century of experience prosecuting and defending criminal charges, we believe the sudden pivot to this baseless legal defense signals concern among Trump and his attorneys about emerging evidence that will show collusion.

That term has come to be shorthand for the possibility that the Trump campaign, its advisers or the president himself coordinated with Russia, a hostile foreign power, to help Trump win the election. The argument that such coordination would be lawful is striking, including the fact that it follows 191 charges against 35 individuals and companies brought by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III, which have yielded five guilty pleas. Taken together, that work spells out the many crimes Russia committed to attempt to affect the outcome of the 2016 election.

That conduct was deeply illegal, and it logically follows that if the president or his campaign team actually worked with the Russians in connection with their efforts, they, too, could be liable. That is not only common sense: It is also the law, with a raft of specific “collusion” crimes implicated.


Many fall under the rubric of conspiracy: an agreement to further illegal action. The core federal conspiracy statute, 18 U.S.C. § 371, would be triggered here if there were any agreement by Trump or those around him with Russian agents to do something that the law forbids. For example, if in or around the infamous June 2016 Trump Tower meeting, the Russians and a Trump representative tacitly or explicitly agreed about the release or use of illegally obtained information, that could plausibly support a conspiracy charge. Indeed, there is already some evidence of just that, including Donald Trump Jr.’s infamous email that “if it’s what you say I love it.”

To take another example of a “collusion” crime, the special counsel’s February and July 2018 indictments against alleged Russian hackers charged them with conspiracy to defraud the United States. Their cyber-misconduct defrauded the government by interfering with federal elections. If Trump campaign operatives were a part of that — say, by coordinating the release of hacked DNC emails with Russian operatives or planning speeches or other campaign events around those releases — then the campaign, too, could plausibly be a part of the conspiracy to defraud the United States.

Again, there is already enough evidence to warrant searching review, such as the fact that within hours of the Russian offer of dirt, Trump announced a major speech promising revelations about his opponent (a speech that he would promise again the following week but never actually deliver). Such campaign encouragement of, or involvement in, illegal Russian activity would not just implicate conspiracy law. The Russian conduct appears to have violated federal anti-hacking statutes, such as the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and the Wiretap Act. The Wiretap Act is especially relevant because we know that the Russians infected the DNC servers with malware that transmitted emails to the Russians’ main server in real time. They were literally intercepting communications, one of the precise activities the act criminalizes.

Even if members of the campaign didn’t encourage or direct that hack, they could still be subject to prosecution for aiding and abetting — in lay terms, helping — a violation of those statutes. Aiding and abetting liability could become a factor if, for example, campaign operatives took a step to make sure the Russians used the hacked materials in the best possible way. (Indeed, campaign aides could even have directly violated the Wiretap Act if they themselves used the contents of any illegally intercepted communication, if they knew or had reason to know the communication was intercepted illegally.)

Nor do the varieties of possible criminal “collusion” with Russia end there. If the president knowingly accepted something of value from the Russians, such as harmful information about his opponent, that could be an illegal contribution by foreign nationals. That is an election law crime. If he accepted that information in exchange for the promise of some action (like taking a more accommodating posture toward the Russian invasion of Ukraine) that he or his administration would take if his campaign proved successful, that could constitute an illegal quid pro quo — that is, bribery.

What if the Russians only informed the campaign about their plans to disseminate stolen emails and the campaign did something that interfered with the crime being uncovered? That could constitute the crime of misprision of a felony — essentially of hiding crimes. And if any money transfers were involved to further the collusion — like if the Russians wired money to the National Rifle Association to avoid FEC scrutiny — that could violate the money laundering statute. Both would be forms of illegally working with the Russians. In a word: “collusion.”

This list merely scratches the surface of the criminal collusion that may be under investigation. In addition, there is of course the coverup of the collusion, which implicates an entirely different set of crimes. Michael T. Flynn and George Papadopoulos have pleaded guilty to the crime of making false statements in connection with their dealings with Russia. If recent reports that the president knew about the Trump Tower meeting are true, then Trump Jr. could face similar charges based on his congressional testimony to the contrary.

Those reports are of course based upon Michael Cohen’s alleged willingness to testify about what Trump knew of the meeting with the Russians and when he knew it. It could well be that there is other corroborating evidence that Cohen has or the special counsel has gotten from other sources. There is also the corroboration offered by common sense: Given everything we know about the paterfamilias, it seems unlikely that no one would have told him about a meeting that was important enough to draw the entire senior leadership of the campaign.

As seasoned criminal law practitioners, we recognize when the tactic of arguing that facts do not constitute a crime is used. That typically happens only after it becomes clear that the prosecution will be able to prove the conduct at issue occurred. That makes it particularly interesting that the president and his lawyer are now reaching for the “collusion is not a crime” defense, after the reports that Cohen will say Trump knew of the Trump Tower meeting.

At any rate, there can be no question of the legitimate law enforcement interest in investigating the many “collusion” crimes that may have been committed. The American people have a fundamental right to know if the president of the United States worked with Russia to win the election and undermine American democracy. The president and his lawyers’ embrace of the extraordinary defense that such collusion would be entirely lawful raises an obvious question: Why are they so busy defending collusion if there was none?


In summary, you did not read the article before posting it.

It is savage in its approximation of the many guilty charges that can be levied against Trump.

What is it with you guys who get all wound up and insulting towards people who post actual facts yet you can't even bother to read a single article yourselves? And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously?


where do these assumptions about kenneyy88 come from?


I had to ignore them in the past due to persistent very nasty personal attacks made in defense of Trump. I don't have access to those posts on the CA forum, but it goes back to last year and it was frequent and abusive. My response thus assumed they were posting it as confirmation of the OP. I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am. When people keep posting stuff they don't read or understand it does tend to stick out.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#91 » by kenneyy88 » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:30 am

Clyde_Style wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
It's always peculiar when a Trump supporter such as yourself posts an article link that completely undermines your own POV.

One has to ask:

Did you even read the article?

Or did you see the first part of the title and ignored the last part of the title?

What about this article was of interest to you?

Here is the article:

Spoiler:
Trump says collusion isn’t a crime. He’s right. It’s actually many crimes.

President Trump’s defender-in-chief, Rudolph W. Giuliani, departed from his client’s usual mantra of “no collusion” on Monday by arguing that even if the Trump campaign colluded with Russia, that is not a crime. On Tuesday, Trump repeated on Twitter that “collusion is not a crime.” While he and Giuliani are technically correct, that’s only because collusion is a rubric that in fact encompasses many crimes. As criminal law experts with a collective century of experience prosecuting and defending criminal charges, we believe the sudden pivot to this baseless legal defense signals concern among Trump and his attorneys about emerging evidence that will show collusion.

That term has come to be shorthand for the possibility that the Trump campaign, its advisers or the president himself coordinated with Russia, a hostile foreign power, to help Trump win the election. The argument that such coordination would be lawful is striking, including the fact that it follows 191 charges against 35 individuals and companies brought by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III, which have yielded five guilty pleas. Taken together, that work spells out the many crimes Russia committed to attempt to affect the outcome of the 2016 election.

That conduct was deeply illegal, and it logically follows that if the president or his campaign team actually worked with the Russians in connection with their efforts, they, too, could be liable. That is not only common sense: It is also the law, with a raft of specific “collusion” crimes implicated.


Many fall under the rubric of conspiracy: an agreement to further illegal action. The core federal conspiracy statute, 18 U.S.C. § 371, would be triggered here if there were any agreement by Trump or those around him with Russian agents to do something that the law forbids. For example, if in or around the infamous June 2016 Trump Tower meeting, the Russians and a Trump representative tacitly or explicitly agreed about the release or use of illegally obtained information, that could plausibly support a conspiracy charge. Indeed, there is already some evidence of just that, including Donald Trump Jr.’s infamous email that “if it’s what you say I love it.”

To take another example of a “collusion” crime, the special counsel’s February and July 2018 indictments against alleged Russian hackers charged them with conspiracy to defraud the United States. Their cyber-misconduct defrauded the government by interfering with federal elections. If Trump campaign operatives were a part of that — say, by coordinating the release of hacked DNC emails with Russian operatives or planning speeches or other campaign events around those releases — then the campaign, too, could plausibly be a part of the conspiracy to defraud the United States.

Again, there is already enough evidence to warrant searching review, such as the fact that within hours of the Russian offer of dirt, Trump announced a major speech promising revelations about his opponent (a speech that he would promise again the following week but never actually deliver). Such campaign encouragement of, or involvement in, illegal Russian activity would not just implicate conspiracy law. The Russian conduct appears to have violated federal anti-hacking statutes, such as the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and the Wiretap Act. The Wiretap Act is especially relevant because we know that the Russians infected the DNC servers with malware that transmitted emails to the Russians’ main server in real time. They were literally intercepting communications, one of the precise activities the act criminalizes.

Even if members of the campaign didn’t encourage or direct that hack, they could still be subject to prosecution for aiding and abetting — in lay terms, helping — a violation of those statutes. Aiding and abetting liability could become a factor if, for example, campaign operatives took a step to make sure the Russians used the hacked materials in the best possible way. (Indeed, campaign aides could even have directly violated the Wiretap Act if they themselves used the contents of any illegally intercepted communication, if they knew or had reason to know the communication was intercepted illegally.)

Nor do the varieties of possible criminal “collusion” with Russia end there. If the president knowingly accepted something of value from the Russians, such as harmful information about his opponent, that could be an illegal contribution by foreign nationals. That is an election law crime. If he accepted that information in exchange for the promise of some action (like taking a more accommodating posture toward the Russian invasion of Ukraine) that he or his administration would take if his campaign proved successful, that could constitute an illegal quid pro quo — that is, bribery.

What if the Russians only informed the campaign about their plans to disseminate stolen emails and the campaign did something that interfered with the crime being uncovered? That could constitute the crime of misprision of a felony — essentially of hiding crimes. And if any money transfers were involved to further the collusion — like if the Russians wired money to the National Rifle Association to avoid FEC scrutiny — that could violate the money laundering statute. Both would be forms of illegally working with the Russians. In a word: “collusion.”

This list merely scratches the surface of the criminal collusion that may be under investigation. In addition, there is of course the coverup of the collusion, which implicates an entirely different set of crimes. Michael T. Flynn and George Papadopoulos have pleaded guilty to the crime of making false statements in connection with their dealings with Russia. If recent reports that the president knew about the Trump Tower meeting are true, then Trump Jr. could face similar charges based on his congressional testimony to the contrary.

Those reports are of course based upon Michael Cohen’s alleged willingness to testify about what Trump knew of the meeting with the Russians and when he knew it. It could well be that there is other corroborating evidence that Cohen has or the special counsel has gotten from other sources. There is also the corroboration offered by common sense: Given everything we know about the paterfamilias, it seems unlikely that no one would have told him about a meeting that was important enough to draw the entire senior leadership of the campaign.

As seasoned criminal law practitioners, we recognize when the tactic of arguing that facts do not constitute a crime is used. That typically happens only after it becomes clear that the prosecution will be able to prove the conduct at issue occurred. That makes it particularly interesting that the president and his lawyer are now reaching for the “collusion is not a crime” defense, after the reports that Cohen will say Trump knew of the Trump Tower meeting.

At any rate, there can be no question of the legitimate law enforcement interest in investigating the many “collusion” crimes that may have been committed. The American people have a fundamental right to know if the president of the United States worked with Russia to win the election and undermine American democracy. The president and his lawyers’ embrace of the extraordinary defense that such collusion would be entirely lawful raises an obvious question: Why are they so busy defending collusion if there was none?


In summary, you did not read the article before posting it.

It is savage in its approximation of the many guilty charges that can be levied against Trump.

What is it with you guys who get all wound up and insulting towards people who post actual facts yet you can't even bother to read a single article yourselves? And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously?


where do these assumptions about kenneyy88 come from?


I had to ignore them in the past due to persistent very nasty personal attacks made in defense of Trump. I don't have access to those posts on the CA forum, but it goes back to last year and it was frequent and abusive. My response thus assumed they were posting it as confirmation of the OP. I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am. When people keep posting stuff they don't read or understand it does tend to stick out.


Def confusing me for someone else.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#92 » by DOT » Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:48 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
It's always peculiar when a Trump supporter such as yourself posts an article link that completely undermines your own POV.

One has to ask:

Did you even read the article?

Or did you see the first part of the title and ignored the last part of the title?

What about this article was of interest to you?

Here is the article:

Spoiler:
Trump says collusion isn’t a crime. He’s right. It’s actually many crimes.

President Trump’s defender-in-chief, Rudolph W. Giuliani, departed from his client’s usual mantra of “no collusion” on Monday by arguing that even if the Trump campaign colluded with Russia, that is not a crime. On Tuesday, Trump repeated on Twitter that “collusion is not a crime.” While he and Giuliani are technically correct, that’s only because collusion is a rubric that in fact encompasses many crimes. As criminal law experts with a collective century of experience prosecuting and defending criminal charges, we believe the sudden pivot to this baseless legal defense signals concern among Trump and his attorneys about emerging evidence that will show collusion.

That term has come to be shorthand for the possibility that the Trump campaign, its advisers or the president himself coordinated with Russia, a hostile foreign power, to help Trump win the election. The argument that such coordination would be lawful is striking, including the fact that it follows 191 charges against 35 individuals and companies brought by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III, which have yielded five guilty pleas. Taken together, that work spells out the many crimes Russia committed to attempt to affect the outcome of the 2016 election.

That conduct was deeply illegal, and it logically follows that if the president or his campaign team actually worked with the Russians in connection with their efforts, they, too, could be liable. That is not only common sense: It is also the law, with a raft of specific “collusion” crimes implicated.


Many fall under the rubric of conspiracy: an agreement to further illegal action. The core federal conspiracy statute, 18 U.S.C. § 371, would be triggered here if there were any agreement by Trump or those around him with Russian agents to do something that the law forbids. For example, if in or around the infamous June 2016 Trump Tower meeting, the Russians and a Trump representative tacitly or explicitly agreed about the release or use of illegally obtained information, that could plausibly support a conspiracy charge. Indeed, there is already some evidence of just that, including Donald Trump Jr.’s infamous email that “if it’s what you say I love it.”

To take another example of a “collusion” crime, the special counsel’s February and July 2018 indictments against alleged Russian hackers charged them with conspiracy to defraud the United States. Their cyber-misconduct defrauded the government by interfering with federal elections. If Trump campaign operatives were a part of that — say, by coordinating the release of hacked DNC emails with Russian operatives or planning speeches or other campaign events around those releases — then the campaign, too, could plausibly be a part of the conspiracy to defraud the United States.

Again, there is already enough evidence to warrant searching review, such as the fact that within hours of the Russian offer of dirt, Trump announced a major speech promising revelations about his opponent (a speech that he would promise again the following week but never actually deliver). Such campaign encouragement of, or involvement in, illegal Russian activity would not just implicate conspiracy law. The Russian conduct appears to have violated federal anti-hacking statutes, such as the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and the Wiretap Act. The Wiretap Act is especially relevant because we know that the Russians infected the DNC servers with malware that transmitted emails to the Russians’ main server in real time. They were literally intercepting communications, one of the precise activities the act criminalizes.

Even if members of the campaign didn’t encourage or direct that hack, they could still be subject to prosecution for aiding and abetting — in lay terms, helping — a violation of those statutes. Aiding and abetting liability could become a factor if, for example, campaign operatives took a step to make sure the Russians used the hacked materials in the best possible way. (Indeed, campaign aides could even have directly violated the Wiretap Act if they themselves used the contents of any illegally intercepted communication, if they knew or had reason to know the communication was intercepted illegally.)

Nor do the varieties of possible criminal “collusion” with Russia end there. If the president knowingly accepted something of value from the Russians, such as harmful information about his opponent, that could be an illegal contribution by foreign nationals. That is an election law crime. If he accepted that information in exchange for the promise of some action (like taking a more accommodating posture toward the Russian invasion of Ukraine) that he or his administration would take if his campaign proved successful, that could constitute an illegal quid pro quo — that is, bribery.

What if the Russians only informed the campaign about their plans to disseminate stolen emails and the campaign did something that interfered with the crime being uncovered? That could constitute the crime of misprision of a felony — essentially of hiding crimes. And if any money transfers were involved to further the collusion — like if the Russians wired money to the National Rifle Association to avoid FEC scrutiny — that could violate the money laundering statute. Both would be forms of illegally working with the Russians. In a word: “collusion.”

This list merely scratches the surface of the criminal collusion that may be under investigation. In addition, there is of course the coverup of the collusion, which implicates an entirely different set of crimes. Michael T. Flynn and George Papadopoulos have pleaded guilty to the crime of making false statements in connection with their dealings with Russia. If recent reports that the president knew about the Trump Tower meeting are true, then Trump Jr. could face similar charges based on his congressional testimony to the contrary.

Those reports are of course based upon Michael Cohen’s alleged willingness to testify about what Trump knew of the meeting with the Russians and when he knew it. It could well be that there is other corroborating evidence that Cohen has or the special counsel has gotten from other sources. There is also the corroboration offered by common sense: Given everything we know about the paterfamilias, it seems unlikely that no one would have told him about a meeting that was important enough to draw the entire senior leadership of the campaign.

As seasoned criminal law practitioners, we recognize when the tactic of arguing that facts do not constitute a crime is used. That typically happens only after it becomes clear that the prosecution will be able to prove the conduct at issue occurred. That makes it particularly interesting that the president and his lawyer are now reaching for the “collusion is not a crime” defense, after the reports that Cohen will say Trump knew of the Trump Tower meeting.

At any rate, there can be no question of the legitimate law enforcement interest in investigating the many “collusion” crimes that may have been committed. The American people have a fundamental right to know if the president of the United States worked with Russia to win the election and undermine American democracy. The president and his lawyers’ embrace of the extraordinary defense that such collusion would be entirely lawful raises an obvious question: Why are they so busy defending collusion if there was none?


In summary, you did not read the article before posting it.

It is savage in its approximation of the many guilty charges that can be levied against Trump.

What is it with you guys who get all wound up and insulting towards people who post actual facts yet you can't even bother to read a single article yourselves? And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously?


where do these assumptions about kenneyy88 come from?


I had to ignore them in the past due to persistent very nasty personal attacks made in defense of Trump. I don't have access to those posts on the CA forum, but it goes back to last year and it was frequent and abusive. My response thus assumed they were posting it as confirmation of the OP. I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am. When people keep posting stuff they don't read or understand it does tend to stick out.

Think you're talking about KennySkywalker
BaF Lakers:

Darius Garland/Cory Joseph
Klay Thompson/Shaedon Sharpe
Keldon Johnson/De'Andre Hunter
Evan Mobley/Tari Eason
Nic Claxton/Draymond Green

Bench: Leonard Miller, Jett Howard, Markquis Nowell, Kennedy Chandler, Day'Ron Sharpe
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#93 » by Clyde_Style » Sun Aug 12, 2018 2:12 pm

K-DOT wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
where do these assumptions about kenneyy88 come from?


I had to ignore them in the past due to persistent very nasty personal attacks made in defense of Trump. I don't have access to those posts on the CA forum, but it goes back to last year and it was frequent and abusive. My response thus assumed they were posting it as confirmation of the OP. I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am. When people keep posting stuff they don't read or understand it does tend to stick out.

Think you're talking about KennySkywalker


OK, well I checked my memory banks before posting to make sure I was not making that mistake, but if I'm wrong I retract my comments and apologize.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#94 » by Jeff Van Gully » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:51 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
K-DOT wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
I had to ignore them in the past due to persistent very nasty personal attacks made in defense of Trump. I don't have access to those posts on the CA forum, but it goes back to last year and it was frequent and abusive. My response thus assumed they were posting it as confirmation of the OP. I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am. When people keep posting stuff they don't read or understand it does tend to stick out.

Think you're talking about KennySkywalker


OK, well I checked my memory banks before posting to make sure I was not making that mistake, but if I'm wrong I retract my comments and apologize.


chill... pill.

even if you were right, is it worth the drama?
RIP magnumt

welcome home, thibs.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#95 » by Clyde_Style » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:09 pm

Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
K-DOT wrote:Think you're talking about KennySkywalker


OK, well I checked my memory banks before posting to make sure I was not making that mistake, but if I'm wrong I retract my comments and apologize.


chill... pill.

even if you were right, is it worth the drama?


I've been pretty rigorous in sticking to producing fact sourced materials. In this case, I acknowledge I could have asked a simple question without the extra sauce.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#96 » by cgf » Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:18 pm

K-DOT wrote:
Sark wrote:Collusion with a foreign power is not a crime?

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I mean, they're technically right

"Collusion" isn't a crime. Conspiracy to commit treason is.


That's like saying that "killing" isn't a crime because the criminal code says "murder" instead. :lol:

I'm a small government conservative...or at least used to be, as mechanization & globalization are changing some of the foundations of economic theory in such fundamental ways that I've come around on a UBI & have no qualms with more interventionist goverment policies on a more local level...I'm an immigrant from one of the non- "****hole countries" & I come from a well-educated family...I'm the first person not to get a PhD in multiple generations. So this racist sex-offender is supposed to be "on my side", but his "defense" is just laughable.

At least we've gotten to enjoy watching Republicans expose themselves after the 8 years they spent pretending to care about small government & transparency, rather than Barry's race.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#97 » by HarthorneWingo » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:25 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
Jeff Van Gully wrote:
Clyde_Style wrote:
It's always peculiar when a Trump supporter such as yourself posts an article link that completely undermines your own POV.

One has to ask:

Did you even read the article?

Or did you see the first part of the title and ignored the last part of the title?

What about this article was of interest to you?

Here is the article:

Spoiler:
Trump says collusion isn’t a crime. He’s right. It’s actually many crimes.

President Trump’s defender-in-chief, Rudolph W. Giuliani, departed from his client’s usual mantra of “no collusion” on Monday by arguing that even if the Trump campaign colluded with Russia, that is not a crime. On Tuesday, Trump repeated on Twitter that “collusion is not a crime.” While he and Giuliani are technically correct, that’s only because collusion is a rubric that in fact encompasses many crimes. As criminal law experts with a collective century of experience prosecuting and defending criminal charges, we believe the sudden pivot to this baseless legal defense signals concern among Trump and his attorneys about emerging evidence that will show collusion.

That term has come to be shorthand for the possibility that the Trump campaign, its advisers or the president himself coordinated with Russia, a hostile foreign power, to help Trump win the election. The argument that such coordination would be lawful is striking, including the fact that it follows 191 charges against 35 individuals and companies brought by special counsel Robert S. Mueller III, which have yielded five guilty pleas. Taken together, that work spells out the many crimes Russia committed to attempt to affect the outcome of the 2016 election.

That conduct was deeply illegal, and it logically follows that if the president or his campaign team actually worked with the Russians in connection with their efforts, they, too, could be liable. That is not only common sense: It is also the law, with a raft of specific “collusion” crimes implicated.


Many fall under the rubric of conspiracy: an agreement to further illegal action. The core federal conspiracy statute, 18 U.S.C. § 371, would be triggered here if there were any agreement by Trump or those around him with Russian agents to do something that the law forbids. For example, if in or around the infamous June 2016 Trump Tower meeting, the Russians and a Trump representative tacitly or explicitly agreed about the release or use of illegally obtained information, that could plausibly support a conspiracy charge. Indeed, there is already some evidence of just that, including Donald Trump Jr.’s infamous email that “if it’s what you say I love it.”

To take another example of a “collusion” crime, the special counsel’s February and July 2018 indictments against alleged Russian hackers charged them with conspiracy to defraud the United States. Their cyber-misconduct defrauded the government by interfering with federal elections. If Trump campaign operatives were a part of that — say, by coordinating the release of hacked DNC emails with Russian operatives or planning speeches or other campaign events around those releases — then the campaign, too, could plausibly be a part of the conspiracy to defraud the United States.

Again, there is already enough evidence to warrant searching review, such as the fact that within hours of the Russian offer of dirt, Trump announced a major speech promising revelations about his opponent (a speech that he would promise again the following week but never actually deliver). Such campaign encouragement of, or involvement in, illegal Russian activity would not just implicate conspiracy law. The Russian conduct appears to have violated federal anti-hacking statutes, such as the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and the Wiretap Act. The Wiretap Act is especially relevant because we know that the Russians infected the DNC servers with malware that transmitted emails to the Russians’ main server in real time. They were literally intercepting communications, one of the precise activities the act criminalizes.

Even if members of the campaign didn’t encourage or direct that hack, they could still be subject to prosecution for aiding and abetting — in lay terms, helping — a violation of those statutes. Aiding and abetting liability could become a factor if, for example, campaign operatives took a step to make sure the Russians used the hacked materials in the best possible way. (Indeed, campaign aides could even have directly violated the Wiretap Act if they themselves used the contents of any illegally intercepted communication, if they knew or had reason to know the communication was intercepted illegally.)

Nor do the varieties of possible criminal “collusion” with Russia end there. If the president knowingly accepted something of value from the Russians, such as harmful information about his opponent, that could be an illegal contribution by foreign nationals. That is an election law crime. If he accepted that information in exchange for the promise of some action (like taking a more accommodating posture toward the Russian invasion of Ukraine) that he or his administration would take if his campaign proved successful, that could constitute an illegal quid pro quo — that is, bribery.

What if the Russians only informed the campaign about their plans to disseminate stolen emails and the campaign did something that interfered with the crime being uncovered? That could constitute the crime of misprision of a felony — essentially of hiding crimes. And if any money transfers were involved to further the collusion — like if the Russians wired money to the National Rifle Association to avoid FEC scrutiny — that could violate the money laundering statute. Both would be forms of illegally working with the Russians. In a word: “collusion.”

This list merely scratches the surface of the criminal collusion that may be under investigation. In addition, there is of course the coverup of the collusion, which implicates an entirely different set of crimes. Michael T. Flynn and George Papadopoulos have pleaded guilty to the crime of making false statements in connection with their dealings with Russia. If recent reports that the president knew about the Trump Tower meeting are true, then Trump Jr. could face similar charges based on his congressional testimony to the contrary.

Those reports are of course based upon Michael Cohen’s alleged willingness to testify about what Trump knew of the meeting with the Russians and when he knew it. It could well be that there is other corroborating evidence that Cohen has or the special counsel has gotten from other sources. There is also the corroboration offered by common sense: Given everything we know about the paterfamilias, it seems unlikely that no one would have told him about a meeting that was important enough to draw the entire senior leadership of the campaign.

As seasoned criminal law practitioners, we recognize when the tactic of arguing that facts do not constitute a crime is used. That typically happens only after it becomes clear that the prosecution will be able to prove the conduct at issue occurred. That makes it particularly interesting that the president and his lawyer are now reaching for the “collusion is not a crime” defense, after the reports that Cohen will say Trump knew of the Trump Tower meeting.

At any rate, there can be no question of the legitimate law enforcement interest in investigating the many “collusion” crimes that may have been committed. The American people have a fundamental right to know if the president of the United States worked with Russia to win the election and undermine American democracy. The president and his lawyers’ embrace of the extraordinary defense that such collusion would be entirely lawful raises an obvious question: Why are they so busy defending collusion if there was none?


In summary, you did not read the article before posting it.

It is savage in its approximation of the many guilty charges that can be levied against Trump.

What is it with you guys who get all wound up and insulting towards people who post actual facts yet you can't even bother to read a single article yourselves? And you wonder why nobody takes you seriously?


where do these assumptions about kenneyy88 come from?


I had to ignore them in the past due to persistent very nasty personal attacks made in defense of Trump. I don't have access to those posts on the CA forum, but it goes back to last year and it was frequent and abusive. My response thus assumed they were posting it as confirmation of the OP. I'm willing to be corrected if I'm wrong, but I don't believe I am. When people keep posting stuff they don't read or understand it does tend to stick out.


Wow, because the article he posted was pro-lib as you correctly pointed out.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#98 » by Clyde_Style » Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:37 pm

HarthorneWingo wrote:
Wow, because the article he posted was pro-lib as you correctly pointed out.


It has been put to bed. OP said I had a case of mistaken identity and I acknowledged this and offered an apology. There was another kenny besides kennyskywalker who was very abusive in the CA Forum and I can't remember the exact name any longer, but it was close enough that I evidently made a mistaken ID.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#99 » by method » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:06 pm

duetta wrote:
method wrote:edited. -JVG


Only if you're the type who believes in pizza joints being the home for a vast pedophile ring.

Seriously, if you're going to pimp a conspiracy theory, can you at least come with something that doesn't automatically engender intellectual contempt - not only for the theory but for the promoters themselves.

and how much research have you done [edited -JVG]?
And reading left owned and controled media doesnt count.How many [edited -JVG] posts have you read???Yeah zero...do yourself a favor and spend sometime research for damn self.Spend one hour of your time and read what he posts.And if you still feel this way.Then you are better then me.
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Re: Ot: Muller files compliant against manafort judge 

Post#100 » by HarthorneWingo » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:09 pm

Clyde_Style wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Wow, because the article he posted was pro-lib as you correctly pointed out.


It has been put to bed. OP said I had a case of mistaken identity and I acknowledged this and offered an apology. There was another kenny besides kennyskywalker who was very abusive in the CA Forum and I can't remember the exact name any longer, but it was close enough that I evidently made a mistaken ID.


Ok, so kennyy88 is cool.

So let's go troll the other kenny. :lol:
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