OT: Kristaps Porzingis -- lateral meniscus tear of his right knee

[robillionaire]

I still think Knicks could have done much better if they shopped KP early like PJax wanted to. There was always red flags. And Hahn never released the 2-3 events that really soured his relationship with the organization. But it must have been bad and you should have shopped him right then and there when his value was higher.

But in hindsight, trading KP at his lowest value still netted some decent return. Dumped Timmy, CLee, and got what will basically be a pick and a half.

DSjr looks hopeless though.

I just wished we traded KP sooner. As well as CLee, we got greedy with him and tried to get a pick when we should have been happy dumping him for a 2nd rounder or two.

This is clearly true. We might have gotten a huge haul then. Though Phil was rumored to want Jackson. Or Fox. It would have been PR suicide though.

If we're being honest, Phil would have f'd it up by taking a bust in josh jackson and I doubt anybody else we got out of the exchange would have worked any better. At least the two future picks next year and in 2023 will be made by this new regime with better scouts and eyes for talent as opposed to Steve Mills and the circus

[Strick]

If by some miracle we had two lottery picks next year I would be absolutely hammered for the lottery lol. How ironic would be that we win the first pick for the first time in forever and it wasn’t “our” pick lol

[nyk2017]

No we still lost the trade because we could have had Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, Crowder, possibly another lottery pick for Porzyngis. Instead we have Dennis Smith, 2 FRP, Julius Randle and equally bad... no Kevin Durant. The main purpose of the KP trade to Dallas was to get KD and another superstar. We got Randle instead.

[thebuzzardman]

Nah we still lost this trade. We got no one worth keeping in free agency and some late firsts. Dallas wouldn’t give us KP back, and that’s even with his bum knee.

The team still has all the flexibility in the world. One of the few teams to have options on the cap this summer with everything going on. Those picks won’t be “late firsts” and even if they are “late firsts” they are still an extra first round pick that we never ever never ever never ever have.

Think about it for a second man... what 2nd star would want to come to NY knowing KP is injured year to year?

It would be disastrous.

Apparently Kyrie Irving is find of gimpy unicorns

[blanko]

No we still lost the trade because we could have had Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, Crowder, possibly another lottery pick for Porzyngis. Instead we have Dennis Smith, 2 FRP, Julius Randle and equally bad... no Kevin Durant. The main purpose of the KP trade to Dallas was to get KD and another superstar. We got Randle instead.

No that request was rejected by danny

Sent from my SM-N960N using Tapatalk

[aq_ua]

Imagine if Dallas misses the playoffs next season and with these new flatter odds we finally win the lottery but not with our pick but Dallas's instead. That would be awesome.

As for KP, I think it was a bad trade on our end. I'm all about getting 2-3 top 30 players and KP when healthy fits in that range.

The injury issues in retrospect take some sting away. Hopefully those picks can turn into somebody special.

Man, I could see that happening for literally any franchise except ours.

Dallas missing the playoffs, though, is entirely feasible when you think about how much young talent is accumulating in the West. Phoenix, Memphis, New Orleans heck even San Antonio can conceivably come back stronger with a more experienced young core and make things tough for the incumbent playoff teams.

[Worst_to_First]

No we still lost the trade because we could have had Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, Crowder, possibly another lottery pick for Porzyngis. Instead we have Dennis Smith, 2 FRP, Julius Randle and equally bad... no Kevin Durant. The main purpose of the KP trade to Dallas was to get KD and another superstar. We got Randle instead.

What is it with Phil Jackson and Jae Crowder?

On a more serious note Crowder is really an under appreciated player. Contributes a lot more to a team success than meets the eye. Am hoping he gets a chance to battle the Celtics in the ECF.

[Worst_to_First]

I still think Knicks could have done much better if they shopped KP early like PJax wanted to. There was always red flags. And Hahn never released the 2-3 events that really soured his relationship with the organization. But it must have been bad and you should have shopped him right then and there when his value was higher.

But in hindsight, trading KP at his lowest value still netted some decent return. Dumped Timmy, CLee, and got what will basically be a pick and a half.

DSjr looks hopeless though.

I just wished we traded KP sooner. As well as CLee, we got greedy with him and tried to get a pick when we should have been happy dumping him for a 2nd rounder or two.

This is clearly true. We might have gotten a huge haul then. Though Phil was rumored to want Jackson. Or Fox. It would have been PR suicide though.

If we're being honest, Phil would have f'd it up by taking a bust in josh jackson and I doubt anybody else we got out of the exchange would have worked any better. At least the two future picks next year and in 2023 will be made by this new regime with better scouts and eyes for talent as opposed to Steve Mills and the circus

Part of me really wants to find out whom Phil would have chosen if we had that chance between KAT vs Okafor and Tatum vs JJ.

[Juco24]

The NBA wants to start the 20/21 season in December... KP likely to miss at least at least 4 months and then I'd expect Dallas to be REALLY careful bringing him back. KP just may miss the entire season, especially if Dallas is struggling. The other thing for them would be to not wear Luka out. In any case, I just don't think KP will live up to that max contract. Skill has always been there but those injuries have been too

[Fat Kat]

Remember this rigorous training technique?

Read on Twitter

[Sark]

The NBA wants to start the 20/21 season in December... KP likely to miss at least at least 4 months and then I'd expect Dallas to be REALLY careful bringing him back. KP just may miss the entire season, especially if Dallas is struggling. The other thing for them would be to not wear Luka out. In any case, I just don't think KP will live up to that max contract. Skill has always been there but those injuries have been too

He's not going to miss the year. This is like an 8 week recovery for a meniscus tear.

It's concerning that he has another injury, but he's still done more than anything we got in the trade, so no we didn't win the trade.

[Phish Tank]

Injury is just another one of the multiple leg injuries he’s sustained over his short career, both nagging and long-term (ACL). Not a good sign for a 25 year old.

The Knicks reached an inflection point to start the 2018-19 season: can KP be a cornerstone of the team or not? Clearly Pills didn’t think so (and they may end up being right). The trade is what it is.... short-term return sucks, but our long-term value is TBD.

Few things are evident: he couldn’t sustain playing the same way he did with us. Dallas did the right thing at the outset by turning him into mostly a three point shooter to preserve his legs. At the same time, his limbs aren’t that strong and big men his height aren’t meant to play major minutes or even significant years in the league. Just look at the track record.

Mistake Dallas did this season was playing him too many minutes. It was a stretch in January that led to a 10 game absence (“right knee soreness” I think) and he played 36 and 38 minutes in Games 2 and 3 - and god knows how many in the bubble.

He’s not a 82 game player and definitely can’t play back-to-backs. He really shouldn’t be playing more than 30 minutes a game either. Both have to be managed. With those stipulations attached, is he worth a max? Not really to many. (including me)

These meniscus tears are funny. Recovery time is based on the body type and severity of the tear. MWP apparently returned in 10 days, but the type of procedure matters too. Sometimes 6-8 weeks is the average recovery period, but then you end up having to deal with random maintenance issues and chronic knee pain So you go in for more procedures. Think Amare or Brandon Roy or even Agent Zero. I think it took a year for D-Rose to fully get some of his legs back post meniscus tear in 2017.

So until Rick reverts KP to an old man game and reduces his minutes, he’s gonna get hurt... a lot more. And he’s yet to deal with the worst leg injury of them all. And remember he’s 7’3 - the track record isn’t great


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Juco24]

The NBA wants to start the 20/21 season in December... KP likely to miss at least at least 4 months and then I'd expect Dallas to be REALLY careful bringing him back. KP just may miss the entire season, especially if Dallas is struggling. The other thing for them would be to not wear Luka out. In any case, I just don't think KP will live up to that max contract. Skill has always been there but those injuries have been too

He's not going to miss the year. This is like an 8 week recovery for a meniscus tear.

It's concerning that he has another injury, but he's still done more than anything we got in the trade, so no we didn't win the trade.

According to this, it's over a 3 month recovery. And I wasn't debating the trade at all but I also don't see what he's done that's so spectacular. Done more than anything we got isn't saying much at all

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mavsmoneyball.com/platform/amp/2020/8/28/21406153/kristaps-porzingis-out-for-series-with-meniscus-tear-surgery-possible

[Juco24]

Injury is just another one of the multiple leg injuries he’s sustained over his short career, both nagging and long-term (ACL). Not a good sign for a 25 year old.

The Knicks got to an inflection point to start the 2018-19 season: can KP be a cornerstone of the team or not? Clearly Pills didn’t think so (and they may end up being right). The trade is what it is.... short-term return sucks, but our long-term value is TBD.

Few things are evident: he couldn’t sustain playing the same way he did with us. Dallas did the right thing at the outset by turning him into mostly a three point shooter to preserve his legs. At the same time, his limbs aren’t that strong and big men his height aren’t meant to play major minutes or even significant years in the league. Just look at the track record.

Mistake Dallas did this season was playing him too many minutes. It was a stretch in January that led to a 10 game absence (“right knee soreness” I think) and he played 36 and 38 minutes in Games 2 and 3 - and god knows how many in the bubble.

He’s not a 82 game player and definitely can’t play back-to-backs. He really shouldn’t be playing more than 30 minutes a game either. Both have to be managed. With those stipulations attached, is he worth a max? Not really to many. (including me)

These meniscus tears are funny. Recovery time is based on the body type and severity of the tear. MWP apparently returned in 10 days, but the type of procedure matters too. Sometimes 6-8 weeks is the average recovery period, but then you end up having to deal with random maintenance issues and chronic knee pain So you go in for more procedures. Think Amare or Brandon Roy or even Agent Zero. I think it took a year for D-Rose to fully get some of his legs back post meniscus tear in 2017.

So until Rick reverts KP to an old man game and reduces his minutes, he’s gonna get hurt... a lot more. And he’s yet to deal with the worst leg injury of them all. And remember he’s 7’3 - the track record isn’t great


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great post sir!

[thebuzzardman]

If he tore it, yet played two more games, I don't think we are talking a significant injury, even though KP having one would delight me.

It might be, and probably is, a sign that he's injury prone in the legs and will continue to have injuries small and possibly large that cause him to miss games every year. And it just might mean he's on the Derrick Rose path, but it's a little early to be sure of that.

[Nazrmohamed]

I still think Knicks could have done much better if they shopped KP early like PJax wanted to. There was always red flags. And Hahn never released the 2-3 events that really soured his relationship with the organization. But it must have been bad and you should have shopped him right then and there when his value was higher.

But in hindsight, trading KP at his lowest value still netted some decent return. Dumped Timmy, CLee, and got what will basically be a pick and a half.

DSjr looks hopeless though.

I just wished we traded KP sooner. As well as CLee, we got greedy with him and tried to get a pick when we should have been happy dumping him for a 2nd rounder or two.

This is clearly true. We might have gotten a huge haul then. Though Phil was rumored to want Jackson. Or Fox. It would have been PR suicide though.

If we're being honest, Phil would have f'd it up by taking a bust in josh jackson and I doubt anybody else we got out of the exchange would have worked any better. At least the two future picks next year and in 2023 will be made by this new regime with better scouts and eyes for talent as opposed to Steve Mills and the circus

Don't forget though that KP at the time was considered a better prospect than guys like Devin Booker and Donavan Mitchell. Guys who are now stars were being floated around when they were just in thier young prospect phase. Then again peyote gotta remember too that DSJ did have a great rookie yr, made the all rookie second team. RJ Barrett made no rookie team and had a worse Stateline if we're just being fair. Second yr for Smith he wasn't any worse. He scored 1pt less and had less assists but better efficiency while playing off ball with Doncic. Even coming to the Knicks he was pretty much our best PG for the rest of that season.

This yr he totally **** the bed. But there was alot going on, didn't somebody die close to him and then the injuries. My point isn't to say hes a great player but he still could be a great prospect. Its only yr 3 and he was drafted at 19. Ive seen guards start off way worse and end up way better.

[thebuzzardman]

Also, let's stop with the narrative that "Randle was brought in to replace KP" or "Knicks traded KP and they got a crap return and then used KP's cap space on Randle"

Sure, Randle was signed, in Mills eyes, to be that younger, still getting better PF who could slot in at the spot KP played.
And yes, arguments can be made that the Knicks did "Ok" or "not that great" or "bad" in the return for KP - as is your opinion.

But Randle wasn't brought in specifically to fill the slot in that he's KP's replacement or the reason the trade was done.

Typical Mills BS of falling for a youngish 6th man who is "on the way up" signed to the "contract that is a value now and will be more so later!" This is OBVIOUSLY a Mills move as it replicates the THJr fiasco in all ways, from the 6th man, to the overpay, to the crappy job done in pro player scouting

Where Perry comes in is in reducing the length of the contract, though I think Mills also had the idea to maintain future cap space as well.

So, it's not incorrect that Mills\Perry used the slot to mollify the fans and replace KP's part in the line up, but it's a bit off to imply that Randle was the plan or even the result of trading KP

Also, and I'm no fan of Randle, but:

Kristaps:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/dallas-mavericks/kristaps-porzingis-17832/


2019-20 $27,285,000
2020-21 $29,467,800
2021-22 $31,650,600
2022-23 $33,833,400
2023-24 $36,016,200 (player option - yeah, he'll pick it up)


Randle:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/julius-randle-15359/

2019-20 $18,000,000
2020-21 $18,900,000
2021-22 $18,900,000 (TEAM option) with $4,000,000 cap hit if team exercises that option, which it will

If KP wanted to stay (doubtful) and if he becomes a legit and mostly healthy 2nd option, then the trade doesn't look that great BUT the Knicks and KP got to move on, the Knicks got 2 1st round picks, though obviously around #25 in the drafts and DSJr (whatevs)

If the Knicks calculation was that KP would not remain healthy and he doesn't, then it was a strong move.

[NYKat]

KP's people wanted that extension ASAP, which led to the breakdown with the Knicks partenrship

PJax is slightly vindicated

[Nazrmohamed]

Also, let's stop with the narrative that "Randle was brought in to replace KP" or "Knicks traded KP and they got a crap return and then used KP's cap space on Randle"

Sure, Randle was signed, in Mills eyes, to be that younger, still getting better PF who could slot in at the spot KP played.
And yes, arguments can be made that the Knicks did "Ok" or "not that great" or "bad" in the return for KP - as is your opinion.

But Randle wasn't brought in specifically to fill the slot in that he's KP's replacement or the reason the trade was done.

Typical Mills BS of falling for a youngish 6th man who is "on the way up" signed to the "contract that is a value now and will be more so later!" This is OBVIOUSLY a Mills move as it replicates the THJr fiasco in all ways, from the 6th man, to the overpay, to the crappy job done in pro player scouting

Where Perry comes in is in reducing the length of the contract, though I think Mills also had the idea to maintain future cap space as well.

So, it's not incorrect that Mills\Perry used the slot to mollify the fans and replace KP's part in the line up, but it's a bit off to imply that Randle was the plan or even the result of trading KP

Also, and I'm no fan of Randle, but:

Kristaps:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/dallas-mavericks/kristaps-porzingis-17832/


2019-20 $27,285,000
2020-21 $29,467,800
2021-22 $31,650,600
2022-23 $33,833,400
2023-24 $36,016,200 (player option - yeah, he'll pick it up)


Randle:
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/julius-randle-15359/

2019-20 $18,000,000
2020-21 $18,900,000
2021-22 $18,900,000 (TEAM option) with $4,000,000 cap hit if team exercises that option, which it will

If KP wanted to stay (doubtful) and if he becomes a legit and mostly healthy 2nd option, then the trade doesn't look that great BUT the Knicks and KP got to move on, the Knicks got 2 1st round picks, though obviously around #25 in the drafts and DSJr (whatevs)

If the Knicks calculation was that KP would not remain healthy and he doesn't, then it was a strong move.

See, I disagree at least with the idea that it is typical Mills bull. I mean, the real problem is Julius' play. If he played better or the team played better its a sound plan. Getting players who are young and on the way up on reasonable deals that give us an out. I been wondering for yrs why the Knicks never use team options and here they did. You don't like Randle and I'm not gonna challenge that but the point is there is an out once you've decided you wanna move on.

I think Mills/Perry did a good job with some things. We kept draft picks galore and in trades always demanded draft picks and we've stayed flexible. The fact that the next GM can walk in and you be so excited at all the options in and of itself prove that the previous FO did a decent job. Usually we get a new GM and give them no cap space and no draft picks for the next 2 yrs.

But sometimes you can do something well and ruin it right? Sometimes how you sell something actually ruins it. What do I mean? Well if Mills said that all these moves ......THE SAME EXACT MOVES........ we're part of our own "process" and that it was all about playing and developing young guys and that we'd use the space to take on salary in exchange for more draft picks to move up in drafts and draft our next superstar it might've felt different. Perhaps today Mills might be looked at differently WITH THE SAME EXACT MOVES. But instead its always about attracting stars, attracting stars, attracting stars, attracting stars.

Sometimes you know what you're dealing with by asking them how they define success or failure. If you ask me why the Knicks have failed Id say we've drafted poorly and have failed to develop a team that can play together. If you ask Mills his failures he'd probably say that he failed to attract a star. And guess what? Our new FO has the same marching orders. All our picks, all our space........its still about attracting a star. The Knicks are the sloppy seconds franchise always lusting after some other team player that THEY drafted, that THEY developed. There will never be another Patrick Ewing for the Knicks

[Spree2Houston]

Phil was right about KP but no one wanted to hear about it at that time. Had we let Phil do his job (by trading KP), we would’ve had Tatum. Firing Phil and promoting Mills/Perry set this team back 5 years.