Mitchell Robinson - Rim runners and the playoffs.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

why are you comparing drummond's 4th season in the nba to robinson's 2nd year in the nba?

Because Drummond was 22, Mitch is going into next season at 22, if you want to compare seasons at 20-21 we can, but then we run into the issue that Drummond was already a fulltime starter his 2nd year in the league.

2 completely different players...

How though? They play a similar game, Drummond lives off the pick and roll & putbacks, their numbers from the same ages are very similar right down to the how many of their shots are assisted.

First you are comparing Mitch to Gobert and now to Drummond....to prove what? As I said earlier we don't really don't know all of what Mitch can become, but he's done great given his specific set of challenges. Dude has less BBall experience than all of them doing what he does.

I'm comparing him to defensive rim rollers - DeAndre Jordan, Andre Drummond, Clint Capela, Steven Adams, Rudy Gobert etc. Those guys are rim rollers, and I put that in the title, I'm using guys who had max or near max deals. You think he's more than what he's shown, I don't and that's where we disagree. I think he's going to start and put up 13ppg, 11rpg, 3bpg numbers which are nice and all but that will carry a contract I wouldn't want to give to the player type he is.

[RHODEY]

Because Drummond was 22, Mitch is going into next season at 22, if you want to compare seasons at 20-21 we can, but then we run into the issue that Drummond was already a fulltime starter his 2nd year in the league.





How though? They play a similar game, Drummond lives off the pick and roll & putbacks, their numbers from the same ages are very similar right down to the how many of their shots are assisted.

First you are comparing Mitch to Gobert and now to Drummond....to prove what? As I said earlier we don't really don't know all of what Mitch can become, but he's done great given his specific set of challenges. Dude has less BBall experience than all of them doing what he does.

I'm comparing him to defensive rim rollers - DeAndre Jordan, Andre Drummond, Clint Capela, Steven Adams, Rudy Gobert etc. Those guys are rim rollers, and I put that in the title, I'm using guys who had max or near max deals. You think he's more than what he's shown, I don't and that's where we disagree. I think he's going to start and put up 13ppg, 11rpg, 3bpg numbers which are nice and all but that will carry a contract I wouldn't want to give to the player type he is.

Ok I understand....I guess we'll have to wait and see what the market is, what his production will look like, and what the team looks like...

[jvsimonetti0514]

The only thing I really worry about Mitch is overpaying him. You just can't lock too much money up in centers anymore. If you can get someone like Brook Lopez for 14 million, you can't pay Mitch 25. Now if Mitch let's it fly and can hit a decent percentage that can change everything but he needs to prove that he can do it.

[RHODEY]

The only thing I really worry about Mitch is overpaying him. You just can't lock too much money up in centers anymore. If you can get someone like Brook Lopez for 14 million, you can't pay Mitch 25. Now if Mitch let's it fly and can hit a decent percentage that can change everything but he needs to prove that he can do it.

Who was the most recently singed elite rim runner?

Clint Capella? He makes 18 mil per....
Gobert around 24 million per..

[jvsimonetti0514]

The only thing I really worry about Mitch is overpaying him. You just can't lock too much money up in centers anymore. If you can get someone like Brook Lopez for 14 million, you can't pay Mitch 25. Now if Mitch let's it fly and can hit a decent percentage that can change everything but he needs to prove that he can do it.

Who was the most recently singed elite rim runner? Clint Capella? He makes 18 mil per....

They traded him pretty quickly after signing that contract. Probably cuz they didn't want to tie up that much money in his contract.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

The only thing I really worry about Mitch is overpaying him. You just can't lock too much money up in centers anymore. If you can get someone like Brook Lopez for 14 million, you can't pay Mitch 25. Now if Mitch let's it fly and can hit a decent percentage that can change everything but he needs to prove that he can do it.

Who was the most recently singed elite rim runner?

Clint Capella? He makes 18 mil per....
Gobert around 24 million per..

Gobert is eligible for the supermax which is 5 years $247.3 million thanks to the DPOY awards, there's no chance the Jazz give him that and will probably look to move him.

Capela's deal was viewed as a good move by Morey getting him for that low too, got rid of him a year later. Really the only guy with staying power right now is Steven Adams, and I think he's almost done with his current deal, I can't see them bringing him back at the same number.

Edit: Just checked and Adams has one more year left at $27 million.

[Clyde_Style]

Just a thought, but if you're going to compare Mitch to other players as a rim runner, I don't see Gobert as even remotely close to Mitch's level by that one designation.

Mitch is already one of the most exciting rim runners in the history of the sport. Gobert is good, but he is not in Mitch's league as a rim runner.

Mitch does stuff I've never seen done before and that includes all of the magnificent acrobatic high fliers in the history of the NBA. I know he has many skills to add to his tool kit to be considered a well-rounded player, but to undersell his talent is a mistake IMO.

[RHODEY]

The only thing I really worry about Mitch is overpaying him. You just can't lock too much money up in centers anymore. If you can get someone like Brook Lopez for 14 million, you can't pay Mitch 25. Now if Mitch let's it fly and can hit a decent percentage that can change everything but he needs to prove that he can do it.

Who was the most recently singed elite rim runner?

Clint Capella? He makes 18 mil per....
Gobert around 24 million per..

Gobert is eligible for the supermax which is 5 years $247.3 million thanks to the DPOY awards, there's no chance the Jazz give him that and will probably look to move him.

Capela's deal was viewed as a good move by Morey getting him for that low too, got rid of him a year later. Really the only guy with staying power right now is Steven Adams, and I think he's almost done with his current deal, I can't see them bringing him back at the same number.

Edit: Just checked and Adams has one more year left at $27 million.

So what would you say the current Market is for an elite rim runner? 20 million per tops?

[Deeeez Knicks]

It's not about the defense as much as it is the offense, the problem with Gobert in the series with the Jazz is that his vaunted defense has been neutralized cause Jokic has turned into a stretch big. That is how the Warriors were able to win titles, you pull the opposing center out of the lane so that your guards get a free shot at the lane since there's no more rim protection. It's why teams are starting to move towards multiple wings, unless you have an offensively gifted big that can kill the switch with their own offense (Davis, KAT, Jokic, Embiid). Gobert cannot score at a high level, and if they get by the Nuggets he'll have the Clippers waiting in the next round with cheap centers, and wings who will make his lack of offense even more pronounced because of how much ground they cover on defense.

The question isn't about whether Mitch will be able to switch on defense, it's whether or not he'll be able to space the floor on the other end or punish switches when he's on offense. So far, very few bigs can punish the switch, and I don't think he can do it in the future either, there's maybe 6 guys who can do it in the league. If he can't punish the switch he needs to be able to space the floor, there is no more room in the league for a rim runner who is getting paid a large portion of the cap.

If we could somehow lock Mitch into a deal for $10-12 million a year then sure I have no objections, but the league wide value of rim runners has plummeted in the last 3 years, look at what Capela & Drummond were traded for. When Mitch starts he will post numbers and will want a max. You can see this coming a mile away, it's happened with pretty much every good rim runner of the last 15 years.

Is offensive spacing even a problem for Utah in this series? Mitchell is be able to get to the rim and score at will and they are hitting a ton of 3's. If anything, Mitchell needs another guy who can help take that scoring load and they have to figure out how to stop Murray.

I see the point, but think it gets a little overblown. Seems like Jokic not being able to protect the paint is as big of a liability if not more then Gobert not being able to shoot 3's. Its been kinda neutral on that end.

The Nuggets aren't a good defensive team, the presumption with the Jazz is that because you have a good defensive center your defense should be good. If he's not giving you great defense and he's pulled away from the rim what does he really give you? Jokic's defense is horrible, but the passing and shooting are such a big threat that he's still making a big impact on the game.

This is not exclusive to Gobert, he's just the main example because he's the last of the maxed salary defensive rim rollers. I don't think it's overblown at all, the Rockets had more than enough shooting with Capela, still got rid of him. We can all see the trend, the only arguments for Mitch in here are the hope that he can develop into a better shooter, nobody has told me how he's so different from all of the previous $20+ million rim rollers that teams eventually get rid of.

I agree that Gobert is not worth the max and I would not give a max to Mitch. But Gobert has still made a positive impact on both ends. Setting good screens, being a lob threat and getting easy buckets provides a lot of value and helps space the floor on offense in a different way. The series is still going 7 games with Gobert as there 2nd or 3rd best player so he must be providing some value. He is still putting up a valuable 16.5ppg with effiency.

There is still a place for good defensive rim running C's, as many of the top teams still employee them and are successful. How much are they worth? That is a different question.

It usually comes down to the best G's/wings. Those types are def a lot more value.

Right now Mitch is young and cheap. If defensive rim rolling bigs are undervalued around the league, then we are not getting much in a trade anyway. It makes much more sense to keep him.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Who was the most recently singed elite rim runner?

Clint Capella? He makes 18 mil per....
Gobert around 24 million per..

Gobert is eligible for the supermax which is 5 years $247.3 million thanks to the DPOY awards, there's no chance the Jazz give him that and will probably look to move him.

Capela's deal was viewed as a good move by Morey getting him for that low too, got rid of him a year later. Really the only guy with staying power right now is Steven Adams, and I think he's almost done with his current deal, I can't see them bringing him back at the same number.

Edit: Just checked and Adams has one more year left at $27 million.

So what would you say the current Market is for an elite rim runner? 20 million per tops?

We'll have to see, there's a shift going on in the league. Someone else made a thread about elite bigs on the general board not being the best players, I wouldn't go that far, but I'm starting to view the center position like running backs in the NFL. If you have a generational talent pay them, anything else and you're just better off doing it by committee or lucking into signing someone under value. If Mitch falls into the 14ppg, 11rpg, 3bpg range I wouldn't want him to see anything more than 15 million per year, especially with the cap potentially dropping in the next few seasons.

If we get Mitch on some kind of 4 year 52-58 million type deal that's fine, once you start approaching the 18-20 million per year it's diminishing returns. Not that they're the same talent levels (Mitch is better), but I'm curious to see what the Nets do with Jarrett Allen, he's going to go for his extension this fall and posted some gaudy bubble & playoff numbers. He averaged 16ppg, 11rpg, 4apg, 1bpg and shot 67% in the bubble and showed a new wrinkle which was passing. I want to see what he gets, and if other teams are interested in him.

[BallSacBounce]

I have to start out by saying I like Mitch and he's been a nice surprise, however a lot of people on here keep saying he could be like Gobert and whether that's true or not remains to be seen. What we do know is that right now Mitch is strictly a rim runner on offense much like Gobert, but we should be watching what's happening with Gobert as a cautionary tale. The entire scope of the series changed, not just because Jamal Murray has turned into a NBA 2k demigod, it's also because Mike Malone made the adjustment with Jokic taking more threes, he's up to 7 a game now on 49%. What that does is neutralizes Goberts defense pulling him from the hoop, and on the other end Gobert's lack of any real offensive skills or shooting kills their spacing. Gobert doesn't have any kind of offense to go at Jokic on the other end, no moves, no handle, no shooting, he literally just relies on putbacks and being set up.


Will Mitch develop into a better offensive player than Gobert? Does anyone here think he will be able to develop a consistent 3 pointer? I'm asking these questions because when Mitch starts, he will definitely put up some big numbers, which will lead to the big contract. I have reservations about that because I'm watching what's happening with Gobert, and because I've seen this movie before with DeAndre Jordan, Steven Adams, Clint Capella and Andre Drummond. I personally do not think you can have a defensive rim runner as a foundational piece of a team in todays NBA, you're better off finding a vet minimum guy to do that job like the Lakers, or a guy on a reasonable short term deal like the Clippers. If one of these rim runner types is taking up a substantial part of your cap you're not winning anything, they are fools gold during the regular season and liabilities in the playoffs when you're essentially playing 4 on 5 on offense.

I know we're not used to having young talent, and the immediate reaction is that we can't trade Mitch, but this is forward thinking and looking at where the league is going. If you told me Mitch would develop into a 35-38% three point shooter or an exceptional passer like Bam Adebayo I'd say keep him, but I can't help to think the player type he represents is a dying breed. If he is Gobert 2.0, I don't want that, because that always leads to the same place which.

You pissed in my cheerios you bastard!

[Sark]

Playoffs?

Honestly we're so far away from the playoffs that this should be a non issue, right now. We don't even know if RJ is a true franchise player yet, or if we need a true #1 option, which we won't be getting in this draft. We could 2 or 3 or more years away from a real playoff run.

I do agree that we shouldn't invest too much in a rim runner, and if Mitch doesn't expand his game, then we should not go overboard on any new deal for him.

[MadGrinch]

its funny ....all this about whether or not mitch can handle this new nba ....and truthfully i think he's more than built for it .

the knicks when they last played the rockets ,schooled them on old school basketball.
https://www.espn.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/4351852/mitchell-robinson

outrebounded them by over 30 and won the game on a last second shot by rj, Taj, Julius and mitch combined for 39 rebounds in 78 minutes of play (15 offensive)

mitch doesn't have issues in this new nba , he's mobile enough to switch on guards and wings ...what he needs to work on is how to hurt them on the other end (jump hooks when he cant dunk it , and 3 pointers to spread the floor.)

[Worst_to_First]

Wow fam you really started a thread on this, able to take on all comers and successfully rebutted all their arguments one by one.

Much respect.

[Nazrmohamed]

The only thing I really worry about Mitch is overpaying him. You just can't lock too much money up in centers anymore. If you can get someone like Brook Lopez for 14 million, you can't pay Mitch 25. Now if Mitch let's it fly and can hit a decent percentage that can change everything but he needs to prove that he can do it.

Who was the most recently singed elite rim runner? Clint Capella? He makes 18 mil per....

They traded him pretty quickly after signing that contract. Probably cuz they didn't want to tie up that much money in his contract.

That dont mean it was a smart move though. Yeah you eouldve had to keep him paid but it wouldn't have stopped them from keeping Harden and Westbrook and once you have them what would you rather do, spend the money on thier glut of 6'5 bigs?

[Deeeez Knicks]

Am I the only one who saw Gobert make a big impact yesterday? He plays dumb at times, but he still put up 19/18/2 and was a +6 in the game (+26 for the series). The Jazz fell apart when he went out with foul trouble and his defense helped bring them back in the 2nd half. He had a bunch of big plays down the stretch. Jokic is just a beast and I think anyone would take him over Gobert. There are just not many C's like Jokic around.

Overall the Jazz just didnt have enough talent. Conley fell off and they are missing Bojan. They were still right there.

In terms of Mitch, dude is crazy athletic and has so much raw talent. We just hired all these great developmental coaches. Mitch is a perfect template for them to work with. How many C's come into the league as good 3 point shooters? A lot of them have developed that as a weapon over time, but it doesnt always happen overnight.

[GONYK]

Am I the only one who saw Gobert make a big impact yesterday? He plays dumb at times, but he still put up 19/18/2 and was a +6 in the game (+26 for the series). The Jazz fell apart when he went out with foul trouble and his defense helped bring them back in the 2nd half. He had a bunch of big plays down the stretch. Jokic is just a beast and I think anyone would take him over Gobert. There are just not many C's like Jokic around.

Overall the Jazz just didnt have enough talent. Conley fell off and they are missing Bojan. They were still right there.

In terms of Mitch, dude is crazy athletic and has so much raw talent. We just hired all these great developmental coaches. Mitch is a perfect template for them to work with. How many C's come into the league as good 3 point shooters? A lot of them have developed that as a weapon over time, but it doesnt always happen overnight.

Gobert is definitely an impact player. There is no way around that, really.

[god shammgod]

Am I the only one who saw Gobert make a big impact yesterday? He plays dumb at times, but he still put up 19/18/2 and was a +6 in the game (+26 for the series). The Jazz fell apart when he went out with foul trouble and his defense helped bring them back in the 2nd half. He had a bunch of big plays down the stretch. Jokic is just a beast and I think anyone would take him over Gobert. There are just not many C's like Jokic around.

Overall the Jazz just didnt have enough talent. Conley fell off and they are missing Bojan. They were still right there.

In terms of Mitch, dude is crazy athletic and has so much raw talent. We just hired all these great developmental coaches. Mitch is a perfect template for them to work with. How many C's come into the league as good 3 point shooters? A lot of them have developed that as a weapon over time, but it doesnt always happen overnight.

it would be incredibly dumb to trade him before the year starts as it seems like this year, which is only year 3, he plans on expanding his offensive game. let's see what that looks like. people instead want to trade him for guys who could possibly be busts in the draft for all we know. he's most likely the most fluidly athletic guy for his height/length in the league. seriously.

and the thing is, it's even more important he develops a face up game than a great 3 point shot. working on his handle will allow him to score without being set up. and he's been doing that.

[god shammgod]

this is the mitch i want to see more than the 3 point shooting mitch. (i'm sure he'll shoot some of those too)

[god shammgod]

and for fun here's mitch casually dunking between his legs