Should the Knicks pursue Dame Lillard/superstars or keep the youth?

[Chanel Bomber]

yeah but he was a top 10 player in the league the very next year

it definitely is about whether you believe some of these young guys will become all-stars and even further the quality of all-stars they are because there's a big difference between lavine and jaylen brown and guys like kd & kawhi. i don't know that fans of a team can ever really be objective when analyzing their own guys. it's very hard.

I think we're all biased one way or another.

I never believed in Frank or Knox and I hated the Obi pick, to be fair. I think my reasons for believing in RJ and Quickley's upside are solid, but of course they could still fall short of my expectations even if they become the best versions of themselves.

Ok here are my thoughts about our pathway to a championship, which probably introduces a bias in how I read the topic of this conversation:

I think the Knicks have a good thing going right now, but I'm not sure the elements we have now can form a championship formula. If Randle makes another leap and becomes a Kawhi-type player, then sure that changes everything. I think it's unlikely he makes that jump, but it's possible.

Anyway, I think the most obvious pathway to a championship is RJ recruiting Zion to New York in 4-5 years. And the Knicks absolutely need be ready for that free agency. Hence the importance of keeping RJ, and to a lower extent Quickley, who assuming progress would complement those two perfectly (in addition to him having a much higher ceiling than people assume in my view). The advantage of it being so far away, is that we can build around Randle, RJ, IQ and also bring in another star, and if that plan fails, we can re-adjust on the fly by recruiting an actual MVP-level talent in his prime in Zion with his closest basketball friend playing for the Knicks.

That gives you a plan A than aligns perfectly with your plan B, which has an even higher upside. If plan B fails for whatever reason, you still gave yourself a chance with plan A, and you can redefine a plan C around RJ, IQ and some randoms that we'll have drafted since.

PS: And RJ might be top 20 next year. It all seems improbable now, and justifiably so, but potential is potential is my point. You have to make the right call. The Lakers did, and they stuck with Kobe instead of making a panic move. The rest is history.

so you want to keep rj, not as much because of rj, but because he can recruit zion like wade did lebron ? now we're talking

i don't know if it's realistic or not but at least it might be a plan to actually contend.

No I want to keep him primarily because I think he changes the culture with his approach and work ethic, and because I believe in his potential. I always believed it would take him a little bit of time to adjust to the NBA and reach his potential. But I personally think he'll be an All-Star for us down the line. I think he matches Julius's timeline fine, although not perfectly.

But yeah... I think the Zion stuff is real. These two a legitimately close, and this could be another D-Wade x LeBron situation, especially with how the Pelicans are being mismanaged. Don't forget, RJ never resented Zion's popularity at Duke even though he was the #1 recruit. Dysfunction (if it continues) could lead to resentment, so New York with RJ could be Zion's escape. Not to mention, Zion wanted to be drafted by the Knicks too. Knicks need to keep their eyes open.

[stuporman]

It's true the Knicks may not need the traditional super facilitator PG type but if Rose ha showed us anything the Kncks need a guy who can break down the defense off the dribble, hit shots off that dribble, pass off the attention that dribble drive creates and hit an open jumper off ball.

So pretty much a dribble drive scoring PG that passes well, shoots well and can play off ball but doesn't have to be the 'true PG' type, just have those skills in the bag to use if need be. That's an extensive checklist for sure but it's not such a rarity in the modern NBA as it used to be, just have to be selective about who.

Plus they have to be willing to exert the defensive energy Thibs requires...that may be the most difficult aspect because usually players that have all those other skills may not be willing to work as hard on the other end out of a sense of entitlement or inability to do it.

[Chanel Bomber]

Look at shamm

[FreeSpiritNY]

Do not trade quickley and rj is all I ask.

[cgf]

yeah but he was a top 10 player in the league the very next year

it definitely is about whether you believe some of these young guys will become all-stars and even further the quality of all-stars they are because there's a big difference between lavine and jaylen brown and guys like kd & kawhi. i don't know that fans of a team can ever really be objective when analyzing their own guys. it's very hard.

There's a follow up question of whether you think a team can win with a top 15 player and two top 25ish players (lavine/brown level) and whether you think Thibs & this FO can build the kind of supporting cast that core would need to win a title. I tend to think they can and would be happy to see them try even if ultimately we end up having to make some painful moves like Toronto did.

it rarely ever happens and you'll never win more than 1 if you do.

I know it's far from guaranteed, but I'd easily take 1 "homegrown" title plus 4-5 years of being a threat over 3 (maybe even 4) titles with a team like the Heatles or current Nets. So I'd take that gamble, even knowing that we'd probably hit a point where we needed to make a painful trade to get over the hump or get stuck as just a fiesty 4th seed. I know many people will disagree with me, but I've always enjoyed the climb/build more than the trophies...plus there's never a level playing field in sports, so pretending that all victories/successes are equal is silly to me.


And that's not just talk...I was more excited by my club (Union Berlin) just making it to the top division, nevermind winning anything, than I was when thb national team dominated host nation (& record-champions) Brazil, by a score of 7-1 in the semifinals, en route to becoming the first-ever non-South American team to win a WC held in south america.

Union is so poor that thousands of fans had to volunteer their labor to help the club renovate the stadium enough for us to get a license to play in the top 2 divisions...after having given blood to raise enough money for the club to afford its license fees in the first place...whereas the only team who has won more World Cups than the german national team is Brazil.


I totally get people who want the super-team with the multiple titles instead and won't call anyone who still roots for this team a glory-whore But that's not the choice I'd make.

[cgf]

I do not get the boards obsession with Lavine when you already have RJ and IQ. None of whom are traditional PG's. We need a piece like Brogdon or someone younger that fits the timeline. Stop chasing the PG's of the past and look to the future. But real PG's.

You don't need a traditional PG when the offense of the future is going to run through Julius, RJ, and that third star the FO will eventually make a move for if IQ doesn't become that dude. Brogdan would be a nice fit if Indiana doesn't ask for an arm & a leg so we can keep enough ammo to trade that 3rd star if FA doesn't work out for us...but getting someone like Brogdan or Lonzo ultimately isn't as important as getting that third high-level shot-creator be it a Lavine, Booker, SGA, Fox, or even Sexton.

Zach gets extra attention because he is the only one of those guys that could be a UFA over these next two summers that we can open a ton of capspace...plus he has a Thibs-connection & the same kind of gym-rat work ethic that our core guys do. If doesn't need to be him, but between potential acquisition costs & fit, he'd just be a perfect target for us.

I like the way they play with Rose on the floor just fine thank you. I would prefer a true PG. But you do you.

A) Rose isn't going away and B) we haven't seen this team with a Lavine & year-4-RJ yet. I have a feeling you'd like the way that they play too.

[Oscirus]

p.s. i don't think we're getting dame, it's not about dame. i do think over the next year or two you're gonna have to make some big decisions. right now it's cool, the knicks are back in the playoffs after being a joke and that's great. but right after that the question will be, how do we take the next step ?

Its pretty much about dame, who else of any substance is available if not dame? The other top players in the league are pretty much satisfied where they're at. So barring Towns becoming available, who else could we possibly target? The only probable dissatisfied players would be on Rj's timeline not randle's.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

p.s. i don't think we're getting dame, it's not about dame. i do think over the next year or two you're gonna have to make some big decisions. right now it's cool, the knicks are back in the playoffs after being a joke and that's great. but right after that the question will be, how do we take the next step ?

Its pretty much about dame, who else of any substance is available if not dame? The other top players in the league are pretty much satisfied where they're at. So barring Towns becoming available, who else could we possibly target? The only probable dissatisfied players would be on Rj's timeline not randle's.

Dame isn't available though, and wont be. They'll trade McCollum first to get Dame another sidekick before they ever think of moving him.

[cgf]

p.s. i don't think we're getting dame, it's not about dame. i do think over the next year or two you're gonna have to make some big decisions. right now it's cool, the knicks are back in the playoffs after being a joke and that's great. but right after that the question will be, how do we take the next step ?

Its pretty much about dame, who else of any substance is available if not dame? The other top players in the league are pretty much satisfied where they're at. So barring Towns becoming available, who else could we possibly target? The only probable dissatisfied players would be on Rj's timeline not randle's.

That can change in an instant in this league.

[Richard4444]

Well ... this is our only chance if we want to compete with the Nets. Trade for Lillard and sign LaVine/Beal in 2022.

If we trade for Lillard and keep Randle, we have to give up to sign a third star. Only Lillard and Randle eat almost 80M from the total cap space for 2022 season.

[Esq-4]

Well ... this is our only chance if we want to compete with the Nets. Trade for Lillard and sign LaVine/Beal in 2022.

If we trade for Lillard and keep Randle, we have to give up to sign a third star. Only Lillard and Randle eat almost 80M from the total cap space.

That's the problem with trading for Dame. It will take all our assets to get him and once we get him we won't be able to sign anyone else. We'd need more than Dame and Randle.

That said would you do Mitch, Obi, Quick, and some firsts if it meant we could keep RJ? Not sure what our cap would look like to also keep Rose, Burk, Bullock, Taj.

[Richard4444]

8-)

This season is already over. You can only trade in the next season when Lillard's salary is 44M.

We have cap space to sign him. But we won't be able to add much help after the trade. Randle, RJ, Lillard + Noah = almost 80M.

[Oscirus]

p.s. i don't think we're getting dame, it's not about dame. i do think over the next year or two you're gonna have to make some big decisions. right now it's cool, the knicks are back in the playoffs after being a joke and that's great. but right after that the question will be, how do we take the next step ?

Its pretty much about dame, who else of any substance is available if not dame? The other top players in the league are pretty much satisfied where they're at. So barring Towns becoming available, who else could we possibly target? The only probable dissatisfied players would be on Rj's timeline not randle's.

That can change in an instant in this league.

this mythical disgruntled superstar tht wants to leave his team builds up over time. We'd know by now, the only real names are beal, dame, and towns and thats more media hype then anything those three said.

[HarthorneWingo]

2 first round picks (and Knox?) for Brogdan

[NoDopeOnSundays]

8-)

Ban this man!

[HarthorneWingo]

8-)

Ban this man!

Just looking at that trade makes me feel ill.

[Clyde_Style]

I say go for Lillard if you can keep RJ. If not, pass, you aren’t winning with Randle, 32 year old Lillard and scrubs.

Don’t trade for KAT or Beal if we have to empty the war chest. I don’t see any scenario we win with one of those two as our best player.

You can forget about KAT ever wearing a Knicks jersey as long as Thibs is the coach.

[cgf]

Its pretty much about dame, who else of any substance is available if not dame? The other top players in the league are pretty much satisfied where they're at. So barring Towns becoming available, who else could we possibly target? The only probable dissatisfied players would be on Rj's timeline not randle's.

That can change in an instant in this league.

this mythical disgruntled superstar tht wants to leave his team builds up over time. We'd know by now, the only real names are beal, dame, and towns and thats more media hype then anything those three said.

That's not true at all. Plenty of guys ask to be traded "out of nowhere".

[BBALLER4FR]

Dame pointing out how Steph is in the conversation for MVP as an eight seed when the pundits said he couldn't be last year.

https://ahnfiredigital.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/damian-lillard-offers-up-compelling-reason-why-he-thinks-stephen-curry-wont-win-mvp/

Read on Twitter

“I think Steph has had a great season. Obviously, there has to be a conversation about him being in the conversation,” Lillard said. “But I don’t think he wins it. At the eight seed, I just don’t see how that works. Last year, it was people like (ESPN’s) Stephen A. (Smith saying) ‘Man, I love what Dame is doing but he can’t be the MVP because they’re the eighth seed.’ You know what I’m saying? But last year, I averaged 30 points and eight assists on 46 (percent) from the field, 40 from the three-point line and 90 from free throw (it was actually 88.8). But last year, they’re like, ‘Man, we can’t consider him an MVP because they’re the eighth seed.’ And now it’s like it’s ok.

If Dame were a Knick he would've been in the conversation. I don't know why he complains about the treatment when it's him and his dying loyalty to a franchise (and a conference) that prevents him from ascending. It's sad.

[BugginOut]

Thing is Dame is never going to sell out. If a trade is done it would be the Blazers making a trade to get the most value out of Dame before he declines ala when OKC shipped out Westbrook. In thats scenario we would have to overpay like hell to get him.

It wouldn’t be worth it