Is it time to blow it up and start collecting ping pong balls?

[Luv those Knicks]

Hate to say it but Isiah Era was more exciting than this. Yes he mortgaged our future, but at least he was trying to make impact trades and excite the fanbase even though he was an idiot in the long-run haha.

Yes we have tons of picks and assets (actually do we?) now but where is that getting us?

I disagree with you there. Few eras in Knicks history were more frustrating than the Isiah era.

Isaiah era was bad but never boring. On and off the court it was a running soap opera. Scott "We like our guys" Layden was the worst.

You might be right about the Layden era. Anderson, EIsley, Sweatney, Doleac (those 2 might have come later). Knicks had some bad years. I thought the Melo years were better than the Marbury years but I didn't like either. I'm still more optimistic now than I was then and I like Leon better than Isiah.

[RHODEY]

I disagree with you there. Few eras in Knicks history were more frustrating than the Isiah era.

Isaiah era was bad but never boring. On and off the court it was a running soap opera. Scott "We like our guys" Layden was the worst.

You might be right about the Layden era. Anderson, EIsley, Sweatney, Doleac (those 2 might have come later). Knicks had some bad years. I thought the Melo years were better than the Marbury years but I didn't like either. I'm still more optimistic now than I was then and I like Leon better than Isiah.

I like Leon less. Leon seems cowardly to me, hate Isaiah if you will but he was never afraid to talk to the media/fans.

[RHODEY]

Its very hard to get a generational star by tanking to get a Top pick.
Let's see the Top5 picks in the draft from 2013 to 2020.
2013 - No generational stars (Dipo was the best player).
2014 - Just Embiid - the third pick (Cant count Wiggins)
2015 - No generational stars (Towns and KP are far away to be generational)
2016 - No generational stars. (Ingram and Brown can be considered eventually but not right now).
2017 - Tantum. Third pick (Fox until last year was a disappointment).
2018 - Doncic and Trae - Third and Fifth pick
2019 - Zion, Morant, and Garland - First, second and fifth pick.
2020 - Edwards and LaMello - First and third pick.
Too soon to analyze the last 2 years IMO.

There were 9 generational players in the Top 5 pick in 8 years of the draft (7 in the Top3). On average, it's about one per year. And in most years, the generational one is not that obvious. Can you calculate the odds to get one of them?

Probably, if we have one of the worse teams in the league, it
can be doable. Because at least the odds to get one a Top5 or even a Top3 pick would be good. You would have more than 20% to get a generational player.

But if we do not have a totally crap team with plenty of rookies, the odds to get a really high pick are slim. You have to add the small odds to get a Top 4 pick and the small odds that the top 4 picks be a generational player.

If we can't get a generational star, a regular star will do. Even having a player like Mathurin on this squad would make a huge difference. This draft is pretty deep...

[Phish Tank]

yes, but we gotta trade some kids as we'll be piling up too many wins with them.

[VirginiaKnickFan]

[Jalen Bluntson]

First, so you do not consider tanking when it is a "circumstantial tanking" like GSW did to get Wiseman, Portland did to get Sharpe and Toronto did to get Barnes.

Second, we prioritized trying to get stars in FA after getting RJ. We just could not try to get a star in that 2019 FA window. The better FA of all time. Then, after the failure, we had to use the cap space. Its difficult to think we could have done a different approach. Maybe getting better players in FA, but it would not be easy.

Huh?

You're naming teams that already had talent. Then the circumstantial tanking helps. It's still not a PLAN. They tried to get stars with the cap space after draftinh RJ. They didn't. Instead they filled the roayer with trash every year. That's not tanking. That's BS.

KP was not a tank. It was a complete failure. Sure...they accidentally got KP and then ruined everything afterwards. Just like they did after RJ. It's not that complicated. You don't draft one player top 5 and do what they did the following year. Period. You need to draft a STAR player and then add to him. Not draft a player hoping he pans out and then start signing trash to multi year deals trying to win. Do you know how a tank works? Obviously not.

So are we discussing semantics and terminology?

I consider "tanking" every season when the team does not make effort to win (selling players and locking players because of injuries) to get a high pick.

You consider "tanking" a multi-year process where you rebuild a team, play just a young team, live with the defeats and get successive top draft picks to build a young core.

You're the one who wants to play semantics. I explained myself clearly. The team didn't plan to tank. They planned to win now and it fell apart.

I then went on to explain what a real "tank" is that people around here want to see. Which is the proper way to do it. Build through the draft until you get a star THEN move on and build around him. The team has NEVER tried to do this. They keep trying to win now. Compete for a playoff spot so Dolan can raise ticket prices. They have sucked at doing so.

[ohboy109]

Its very hard to get a generational star by tanking to get a Top pick.
Let's see the Top5 picks in the draft from 2013 to 2020.
2013 - No generational stars (Dipo was the best player).
2014 - Just Embiid - the third pick (Cant count Wiggins)
2015 - No generational stars (Towns and KP are far away to be generational)
2016 - No generational stars. (Ingram and Brown can be considered eventually but not right now).
2017 - Tantum. Third pick (Fox until last year was a disappointment).
2018 - Doncic and Trae - Third and Fifth pick
2019 - Zion, Morant, and Garland - First, second and fifth pick.
2020 - Edwards and LaMello - First and third pick.
Too soon to analyze the last 2 years IMO.

There were 9 generational players in the Top 5 pick in 8 years of the draft (7 in the Top3). On average, it's about one per year. And in most years, the generational one is not that obvious. Can you calculate the odds to get one of them?

Probably, if we have one of the worse teams in the league, it
can be doable. Because at least the odds to get one a Top5 or even a Top3 pick would be good. You would have more than 20% to get a generational player.

But if we do not have a totally crap team with plenty of rookies, the odds to get a really high pick are slim. You have to add the small odds to get a Top 4 pick and the small odds that the top 4 picks be a generational player.

If we can't get a generational star, a regular star will do. Even having a player like Mathurin on this squad would make a huge difference. This draft is pretty deep...

Just gotta be in the top 6, not 8-12!!

[RHODEY]

Its very hard to get a generational star by tanking to get a Top pick.
Let's see the Top5 picks in the draft from 2013 to 2020.
2013 - No generational stars (Dipo was the best player).
2014 - Just Embiid - the third pick (Cant count Wiggins)
2015 - No generational stars (Towns and KP are far away to be generational)
2016 - No generational stars. (Ingram and Brown can be considered eventually but not right now).
2017 - Tantum. Third pick (Fox until last year was a disappointment).
2018 - Doncic and Trae - Third and Fifth pick
2019 - Zion, Morant, and Garland - First, second and fifth pick.
2020 - Edwards and LaMello - First and third pick.
Too soon to analyze the last 2 years IMO.

There were 9 generational players in the Top 5 pick in 8 years of the draft (7 in the Top3). On average, it's about one per year. And in most years, the generational one is not that obvious. Can you calculate the odds to get one of them?

Probably, if we have one of the worse teams in the league, it
can be doable. Because at least the odds to get one a Top5 or even a Top3 pick would be good. You would have more than 20% to get a generational player.

But if we do not have a totally crap team with plenty of rookies, the odds to get a really high pick are slim. You have to add the small odds to get a Top 4 pick and the small odds that the top 4 picks be a generational player.

If we can't get a generational star, a regular star will do. Even having a player like Mathurin on this squad would make a huge difference. This draft is pretty deep...

Just gotta be in the top 6, not 8-12!!

In a normal draft I agree maybe top seven....this draft is supposed to be deeper though...

[Luv those Knicks]

Isaiah era was bad but never boring. On and off the court it was a running soap opera. Scott "We like our guys" Layden was the worst.

You might be right about the Layden era. Anderson, EIsley, Sweatney, Doleac (those 2 might have come later). Knicks had some bad years. I thought the Melo years were better than the Marbury years but I didn't like either. I'm still more optimistic now than I was then and I like Leon better than Isiah.

I like Leon less. Leon seems cowardly to me, hate Isaiah if you will but he was never afraid to talk to the media/fans.

Yes, but that's just showmanship. It doesn't change the team. Isiah was a better showman than most GMs, but I think Leon's a better GM with a better overall approach, even if he's made some big mistakes, I think overall he's not dooming the franchise for the next 5 years the way Isiah did.

[HarthorneWingo]

You might be right about the Layden era. Anderson, EIsley, Sweatney, Doleac (those 2 might have come later). Knicks had some bad years. I thought the Melo years were better than the Marbury years but I didn't like either. I'm still more optimistic now than I was then and I like Leon better than Isiah.

I like Leon less. Leon seems cowardly to me, hate Isaiah if you will but he was never afraid to talk to the media/fans.

Yes, but that's just showmanship. It doesn't change the team. Isiah was a better showman than most GMs, but I think Leon's a better GM with a better overall approach, even if he's made some big mistakes, I think overall he's not dooming the franchise for the next 5 years the way Isiah did.

It’s an interesting comparison of ways in which to not improve your business organization. Should be turned into a college course for credit.

[symbiotic]

I have purged sports out of my life to save time (especially with this team), but I'll be lying if I said I wouldn't feel butterflies if Victor Wembanyama was a Knick.

[Sprewell4Three]

Lol I come here every season and it’s the same thing after 20 some odd games. As long as Dolan is at the helm the Knicks will never truly tank. I’ve been saying this for years but each single we have a group of fans that want to get excited about this team. I will say this, not drafting Haliburton is going to hurt this team for ages. Haliburton and RJ future would be a lot better then the garbage we have now.

[Luv those Knicks]

And they can't even tank right, if tonight is any indication.

(Knicks beat Cavs)

[RHODEY]

You might be right about the Layden era. Anderson, EIsley, Sweatney, Doleac (those 2 might have come later). Knicks had some bad years. I thought the Melo years were better than the Marbury years but I didn't like either. I'm still more optimistic now than I was then and I like Leon better than Isiah.

I like Leon less. Leon seems cowardly to me, hate Isaiah if you will but he was never afraid to talk to the media/fans.

Yes, but that's just showmanship. It doesn't change the team. Isiah was a better showman than most GMs, but I think Leon's a better GM with a better overall approach, even if he's made some big mistakes, I think overall he's not dooming the franchise for the next 5 years the way Isiah did.

Right Leon is probably the better gm(no saying much) ...I acknowledge that.

[knicksNOTslick]

Its very hard to get a generational star by tanking to get a Top pick.
Let's see the Top5 picks in the draft from 2013 to 2020.
2013 - No generational stars (Dipo was the best player).
2014 - Just Embiid - the third pick (Cant count Wiggins)
2015 - No generational stars (Towns and KP are far away to be generational)
2016 - No generational stars. (Ingram and Brown can be considered eventually but not right now).
2017 - Tantum. Third pick (Fox until last year was a disappointment).
2018 - Doncic and Trae - Third and Fifth pick
2019 - Zion, Morant, and Garland - First, second and fifth pick.
2020 - Edwards and LaMello - First and third pick.
Too soon to analyze the last 2 years IMO.

There were 9 generational players in the Top 5 pick in 8 years of the draft (7 in the Top3). On average, it's about one per year. And in most years, the generational one is not that obvious. Can you calculate the odds to get one of them?

Probably, if we have one of the worse teams in the league, it
can be doable. Because at least the odds to get one a Top5 or even a Top3 pick would be good. You would have more than 20% to get a generational player.

But if we do not have a totally crap team with plenty of rookies, the odds to get a really high pick are slim. You have to add the small odds to get a Top 4 pick and the small odds that the top 4 picks be a generational player.

So you don't consider KAT generational but you consider Garland as one?

[Luv those Knicks]

Its very hard to get a generational star by tanking to get a Top pick.
Let's see the Top5 picks in the draft from 2013 to 2020.
2013 - No generational stars (Dipo was the best player).
2014 - Just Embiid - the third pick (Cant count Wiggins)
2015 - No generational stars (Towns and KP are far away to be generational)
2016 - No generational stars. (Ingram and Brown can be considered eventually but not right now).
2017 - Tantum. Third pick (Fox until last year was a disappointment).
2018 - Doncic and Trae - Third and Fifth pick
2019 - Zion, Morant, and Garland - First, second and fifth pick.
2020 - Edwards and LaMello - First and third pick.
Too soon to analyze the last 2 years IMO.

There were 9 generational players in the Top 5 pick in 8 years of the draft (7 in the Top3). On average, it's about one per year. And in most years, the generational one is not that obvious. Can you calculate the odds to get one of them?

Probably, if we have one of the worse teams in the league, it
can be doable. Because at least the odds to get one a Top5 or even a Top3 pick would be good. You would have more than 20% to get a generational player.

But if we do not have a totally crap team with plenty of rookies, the odds to get a really high pick are slim. You have to add the small odds to get a Top 4 pick and the small odds that the top 4 picks be a generational player.

So you don't consider KAT generational but you consider Garland as one?

Even if you adjust the "generational talents", I agree with his overall point. Tanking isn't the magic fix many people seem to think it is. Teams still have to land the right player AND build around that player. Lots of generational talents are stuck on mediocre teams that aren't going very far.

Zion was probably the most hyped draft prospect in the last 10 years, but he's injury prone and might never carry his team into the finals. Ja however, looks legit, and if the Knicks had landed the 2nd pick, not the first or 3rd, this team might be in a different place right now.

or had they draft DM instead of Frank. And some of that is luck not skill. DM was picked #13 so a bunch of teams passed on him. Giannis was drafted #15. Dirk (and I realize I'm going into ancient history a little with this one), drafted 9th. I think a team needs a combination of tanking and luck, and when they have that key player, they need to build around them the right way. It's not a simple process. Would tanking more often have helped? Probably, but nobody should think that tanking is a sure thing. Lots of teams tend to stay bad in the NBA, only a few really succeed.

[FrozenEnvelope]

You tankers are so stupid.

[robillionaire]

Nope

[FrozenEnvelope]

Tankers cannot just jump on this ship and enjoy this winning now. Stay on your side.

[Jesus Juice]

I think purposely setting up yourself to lose games is just not a good strategy for building a winning culture in the long run.. Yes having generational talent is important but it’s not like that is the only/best way Toronto got a chip by building a team and being prepared for the right opportunity. MLK developed a generational talent from the 15th pick and GS developed a championship team from the 7th pick 11th pick and a second round choice. The important piece is drafting the best player you can while considering fit development and maintaining flexibility. Had the Knicks do the actual right thing and drafted Haliburten instead of Obi (I think this pick was most Egregious as we had Randle on the squad and a need at the position and More of a no brainer as Knox/Frank in hindsight) all else equal we would have formidable team that would be on the verge of contention and that Mitchell trade would of made a lot more sense to make if that was your cup of tea. Personally I don’t think I would have entertained that trade if we had Hali instead of Obi but that’s a different conversation.