Your 2023 Knicks..The Epitome of Mid, Boring, Overrated Asset Accumulation led by Point Randle

[DrCoach]

Some fans, usually the hardcore tankers preferred the bad years over this. You could get excited at draft time that maybe we got the next Lebron or Wemby. A homegrown star to root for is what they really want, even more than wins sometimes.

Hoping your 2nd round team which was the youngest left in the playoffs gets worse instead to the ecf so you can be right is some real hating lol

Who cares if you are "youngest" left if none of your young player project to be top 25 players? Lets sign a **** fetus so we can brag about our young roster, of young rotation / league average starter players.

We lost to Cleveland, nobody here wouldn't swap our roster for theirs in a heartbeat. They have a top 15 player, Garland and Mobley are worlds better than our road apples under 24.

There are no hardcore tankers because we've never tanked, that's a lie. We had a few bad seasons but ownership immediately begins jerking their meat for a mid-tier playoff team as soon as the hat is on our draft pick. We have less top 5 picks (three) than any franchise in the league and we have zero titles in that time period.

Yet Clevelands best player wants to play for Knicks

[Jose7]

This can be the post game thread for the rest of the year.

Again Just confirming my points. Randle thibs and rose are holding this franchise back immensely. You don’t wanna be mid. You wanna be awful and keep taking lotto shots or you wanna be great. Worst place in sports with guaranteed contracts

[DOT]

It's just always funny to me when guys make a big deal about how they're done, but then keep coming back lol

[nedleeds]

This can be the post game thread for the rest of the year.

Again Just confirming my points. Randle thibs and rose are holding this franchise back immensely. You don’t wanna be mid. You wanna be awful and keep taking lotto shots or you wanna be great. Worst place in sports with guaranteed contracts

this board:

[Jose7]

It's just always funny to me when guys make a big deal about how they're done, but then keep coming back lol

??? Watched a glut of Malik rose, Maurice Taylor, Jerome James antonio Davis Channing frye David lee and Jackie butler.

we’re allowed to do as we please

[Jose7]

6/4/4/, 3/14, 3 turnovers. LMAOOOO

this is y'all king?

[Jose7]

Read on Twitter

?s=46

Legendary player. 20/10/5 all star hall of fame caliber player LOL

[Jose7]

Lmao

[nykballa2k4]

It's just always funny to me when guys make a big deal about how they're done, but then keep coming back lol

??? Watched a glut of Malik rose, Maurice Taylor, Jerome James antonio Davis Channing frye David lee and Jackie butler.

we’re allowed to do as we please

Malik Rose in today's game would be a very useful player.

[spree8]

More often than not agree with you but we did tank in 2018-19. That season was an incredible tank job.

One could argue they also tanked in 2014-15 but they botched it in the end by putting themselves in a position to lose the tiebreaker.

Also the prize was KAT who hasn't exactly blossomed into the superstar he was expected to become. A fair question regarding that is would you be fine having KAT on his current contract on the team or would you view him in the same way you view Brunson and Randle?

To Gravy's point, we tend to over-fantasize about draft position but tanking is far from fail-proof because - Wembies and LeBrons aside - scouting and sheer luck also play a huge role in picking the right player.

Passing on Haliburton in 2020 was a far bigger crime, and that occurred outside the top 5.

Depends on your definition of a tanking franchise but sure. We tanked for 1 year, got RJ and should have just continued tanking. After year 2 it was obvious RJ was never going to be a top 25 player. Instead we signed rotation players like Randle and Morris and won 6 too many games and picked 8th.

When we got KP in the 2015 draft again we should have continued the tank by trying get a 1st for Melo, who played 72 games the following year. Granted Toronto (?) had our pick but still 32-50 is not tanking it's literally the worst place to be in the NBA. I know Melo had a no trade, etc. but again we take the short cut and think we can compete for ... what? Dolans playoff revenue.

I'm looking at this franchise through old 47 year old eyes. We never, ever, tank and bottom out for long enough to get enough swings to find Dirk, or Steph, or get lucky enough to get #1 the year Tim Duncan or LeFlop is available.

We quite literally have the fewest picks in the top 5 in the **** league and it shows in the futility.

As for the KP draft and could we have KAT instead, I think in general it would be a wash, KAT would have been a tank commander, I guess not blown his knee out in year 2? He's have played with Melo that rookie year when Melo was checked out and not playing defense already under Phil / Derek Failure. I think think it's less about KAT/KP or Deangelo Russell than they didn't trade Melo for a 1st and flotsam.

I don't masturbate over the draft, but when you have no top 25 player and no young player that projects to the top 15 what are you doing if you aren't trying in the draft? Treadmilling to mostly no where. Could we have found Kawhi instead of Grimes, Dirk instead of Obi ... sure. Scouting matters but sometimes just lots of picks from 1 to 15 is the other way. Look at what Phoenix had to do just to get Booker, Philly just to get Embiid, Bucks just to get Giannis ... You forget the Bucks picked Jabari Parker, Jimmer, John Henson in that span.

The Knicks plan is an absolute 100% shot to neither

a) get to the Finals
b) get a top 5 pick

and this is why we fail.

Well, they are 100% making things harder for themselves by punting on the draft recently.

But while I get where you're coming from about the endemic failure of this franchise to get top picks since the 1980s, I still think you overvalue the "top 5" pick in this debate. Denver built their core outside the top 5, as did Toronto and Golden State before them.

Scouting and luck play a huge role. Luck is out of your control, but the poor scouting over the years has been more damaging to this franchise than the general unwillingness to tank in my opinion. Because it permeates through every significant decision, such as drafting RJ over Garland, or Obi over Haliburton.

Case in point, if we believe those reports to be true, the Knicks were rumored to like Wiseman at the top of the 2020 draft, if I remember correctly. Winning the lottery only to draft him would have been a disaster. But even if they'd been in a position to land Edwards and make the right call, I still view Haliburton is the better talent, and they had the ability to select him where they were. They didn't.

Definitely need both. With the lotto odds nowadays, yeah we need a better staff of talent evaluators in case we drop further down, but we also need a staff to be on the same page and embrace rebuilding/tanking thru the top of the draft.

We haven’t had a good scouting department for as long as I can remember. That’s why we ended up drafting guys like Knox over Mikal and Frank over Donovan, and Obi over Hali (and even IQ over Bane).

But we also haven’t had a staff fully dedicated towards rebuilding/tanking for the top of the draft for as long as it takes. Most of the all-time greatest players have been selected at the top of the draft and the majority of the championships have been won by teams with these guys leading the way.

We need to finally get good scouting and a regime committed to the multi-year tank.

[knicks94]

I have never wanted a Knicks player off the team the way that I want Randle off this team, and there have been more than a handful of players on the Knicks in the last 20 years that I couldn't stand.

[Chanel Bomber]

Depends on your definition of a tanking franchise but sure. We tanked for 1 year, got RJ and should have just continued tanking. After year 2 it was obvious RJ was never going to be a top 25 player. Instead we signed rotation players like Randle and Morris and won 6 too many games and picked 8th.

When we got KP in the 2015 draft again we should have continued the tank by trying get a 1st for Melo, who played 72 games the following year. Granted Toronto (?) had our pick but still 32-50 is not tanking it's literally the worst place to be in the NBA. I know Melo had a no trade, etc. but again we take the short cut and think we can compete for ... what? Dolans playoff revenue.

I'm looking at this franchise through old 47 year old eyes. We never, ever, tank and bottom out for long enough to get enough swings to find Dirk, or Steph, or get lucky enough to get #1 the year Tim Duncan or LeFlop is available.

We quite literally have the fewest picks in the top 5 in the **** league and it shows in the futility.

As for the KP draft and could we have KAT instead, I think in general it would be a wash, KAT would have been a tank commander, I guess not blown his knee out in year 2? He's have played with Melo that rookie year when Melo was checked out and not playing defense already under Phil / Derek Failure. I think think it's less about KAT/KP or Deangelo Russell than they didn't trade Melo for a 1st and flotsam.

I don't masturbate over the draft, but when you have no top 25 player and no young player that projects to the top 15 what are you doing if you aren't trying in the draft? Treadmilling to mostly no where. Could we have found Kawhi instead of Grimes, Dirk instead of Obi ... sure. Scouting matters but sometimes just lots of picks from 1 to 15 is the other way. Look at what Phoenix had to do just to get Booker, Philly just to get Embiid, Bucks just to get Giannis ... You forget the Bucks picked Jabari Parker, Jimmer, John Henson in that span.

The Knicks plan is an absolute 100% shot to neither

a) get to the Finals
b) get a top 5 pick

and this is why we fail.

Well, they are 100% making things harder for themselves by punting on the draft recently.

But while I get where you're coming from about the endemic failure of this franchise to get top picks since the 1980s, I still think you overvalue the "top 5" pick in this debate. Denver built their core outside the top 5, as did Toronto and Golden State before them.

Scouting and luck play a huge role. Luck is out of your control, but the poor scouting over the years has been more damaging to this franchise than the general unwillingness to tank in my opinion. Because it permeates through every significant decision, such as drafting RJ over Garland, or Obi over Haliburton.

Case in point, if we believe those reports to be true, the Knicks were rumored to like Wiseman at the top of the 2020 draft, if I remember correctly. Winning the lottery only to draft him would have been a disaster. But even if they'd been in a position to land Edwards and make the right call, I still view Haliburton is the better talent, and they had the ability to select him where they were. They didn't.

Definitely need both. With the lotto odds nowadays, yeah we need a better staff of talent evaluators in case we drop further down, but we also need a staff to be on the same page and embrace rebuilding/tanking thru the top of the draft.

We haven’t had a good scouting department for as long as I can remember. That’s why we ended up drafting guys like Knox over Mikal and Frank over Donovan, and Obi over Hali (and even IQ over Bane).

But we also haven’t had a staff fully dedicated towards rebuilding/tanking for the top of the draft for as long as it takes. Most of the all-time greatest players have been selected at the top of the draft and the majority of the championships have been won by teams with these guys leading the way.

We need to finally get good scouting and a regime committed to the multi-year tank.

I don't think a multi-year tank is actually needed.

Historically, most great players are found at the top of the draft. But this may no longer be the case.

Over half of the elite players drafted in the last 12-13 years were picked outside the top 10. Sure, there are still your Wembys, your Tatums, your Lukas, and your ADs in the top 5. But I'd argue that a lot if not most of the best talents seen in recent years would not have been drafted by their teams had they actually tanked, e.g., Jokic, Giannis, Jimmy, Kawhi etc. as well as some of the younger stars.

I have been wondering whether this stretch is an aberration or a long-term trend whereby the draft - outside of the odd generational talent - is simply more unpredictable than it used to be. I don't know the answer to that question (*and we very well may be starting to see a reversal of this trend), but I think it's fair to ask.

What having a high pick provides is hope, but the odds that it is met with a satisfying outcome in reality are extremely low.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Well, they are 100% making things harder for themselves by punting on the draft recently.

But while I get where you're coming from about the endemic failure of this franchise to get top picks since the 1980s, I still think you overvalue the "top 5" pick in this debate. Denver built their core outside the top 5, as did Toronto and Golden State before them.

Scouting and luck play a huge role. Luck is out of your control, but the poor scouting over the years has been more damaging to this franchise than the general unwillingness to tank in my opinion. Because it permeates through every significant decision, such as drafting RJ over Garland, or Obi over Haliburton.

Case in point, if we believe those reports to be true, the Knicks were rumored to like Wiseman at the top of the 2020 draft, if I remember correctly. Winning the lottery only to draft him would have been a disaster. But even if they'd been in a position to land Edwards and make the right call, I still view Haliburton is the better talent, and they had the ability to select him where they were. They didn't.

Definitely need both. With the lotto odds nowadays, yeah we need a better staff of talent evaluators in case we drop further down, but we also need a staff to be on the same page and embrace rebuilding/tanking thru the top of the draft.

We haven’t had a good scouting department for as long as I can remember. That’s why we ended up drafting guys like Knox over Mikal and Frank over Donovan, and Obi over Hali (and even IQ over Bane).

But we also haven’t had a staff fully dedicated towards rebuilding/tanking for the top of the draft for as long as it takes. Most of the all-time greatest players have been selected at the top of the draft and the majority of the championships have been won by teams with these guys leading the way.

We need to finally get good scouting and a regime committed to the multi-year tank.

I don't think a multi-year tank is actually needed.

Historically, most great players are found at the top of the draft. But this may no longer be the case.

Over half of the elite players drafted in the last 12-13 years were picked outside the top 10. Sure, there are still your Wembys, your Tatums, your Lukas, and your ADs in the top 5. But I'd argue that a lot if not most of the best talents seen in recent years would not have been drafted by their teams had they actually tanked, e.g., Jokic, Giannis, Jimmy, Kawhi etc. as well as some of the younger stars.

I have been wondering whether this stretch is an aberration or a long-term trend whereby the draft - outside of the odd generational talent - is simply more unpredictable than it used to be. I don't know the answer to that question (*and we very well may be starting to see a reversal of this trend), but I think it's fair to ask.

What having a high pick provides is hope, but the odds that it is met with a satisfying outcome in reality are extremely low.

No

[spree8]

Well, they are 100% making things harder for themselves by punting on the draft recently.

But while I get where you're coming from about the endemic failure of this franchise to get top picks since the 1980s, I still think you overvalue the "top 5" pick in this debate. Denver built their core outside the top 5, as did Toronto and Golden State before them.

Scouting and luck play a huge role. Luck is out of your control, but the poor scouting over the years has been more damaging to this franchise than the general unwillingness to tank in my opinion. Because it permeates through every significant decision, such as drafting RJ over Garland, or Obi over Haliburton.

Case in point, if we believe those reports to be true, the Knicks were rumored to like Wiseman at the top of the 2020 draft, if I remember correctly. Winning the lottery only to draft him would have been a disaster. But even if they'd been in a position to land Edwards and make the right call, I still view Haliburton is the better talent, and they had the ability to select him where they were. They didn't.

Definitely need both. With the lotto odds nowadays, yeah we need a better staff of talent evaluators in case we drop further down, but we also need a staff to be on the same page and embrace rebuilding/tanking thru the top of the draft.

We haven’t had a good scouting department for as long as I can remember. That’s why we ended up drafting guys like Knox over Mikal and Frank over Donovan, and Obi over Hali (and even IQ over Bane).

But we also haven’t had a staff fully dedicated towards rebuilding/tanking for the top of the draft for as long as it takes. Most of the all-time greatest players have been selected at the top of the draft and the majority of the championships have been won by teams with these guys leading the way.

We need to finally get good scouting and a regime committed to the multi-year tank.

I don't think a multi-year tank is actually needed.

Historically, most great players are found at the top of the draft. But this may no longer be the case.

Over half of the elite players drafted in the last 12-13 years were picked outside the top 10. Sure, there are still your Wembys, your Tatums, your Lukas, and your ADs in the top 5. But I'd argue that a lot if not most of the best talents seen in recent years would not have been drafted by their teams had they actually tanked, e.g., Jokic, Giannis, Jimmy, Kawhi etc. as well as some of the younger stars.

I have been wondering whether this stretch is an aberration or a long-term trend whereby the draft - outside of the odd generational talent - is simply more unpredictable than it used to be. I don't know the answer to that question (*and we very well may be starting to see a reversal of this trend), but I think it's fair to ask.

What having a high pick provides is hope, but the odds that it is met with a satisfying outcome in reality are extremely low.

I get your point, and yeah maybe it’s not as crucial as it once was to be at the very top, but I still think it’s better to be there than being mid or half assing a rebuild like we’ve done in the past.

I’ve always wanted to just see a commitment to youth from players to coaching with a modern system. No vets taking starting spots, just old timers who’ve won and can bestow some wisdom on the young guys and keep the locker room in check. Just build the right way and naturally land in the top of the draft thru inexperience/growing pains.

To the bolded part tho… are you sure about this? Elite stars drafted in top 10 since 2010 (last 13 years)..

2010: PG, Wall, Cousins, Gordy
2011: Kyrie, Kemba (Klay, Kawhi, Jimmy outside)
2012: AD, Dame, Beal (Draymond, Khris)
2013: Dipo (Giannis, Gobert)
2014: Embiid, Smart (Joker)
2015: Towns, KP (Booker, Myles)
2016: Ben, BI, Murray, Jaylen (Siakam, Dejounte, Sabonis)
2017: Tatum, Fox, Lauri (Donovan, Bam)
2018: Luka, Trae, JJJ, Mikal (SGA, MPJ, Brunson)
2019: Zion, Ja, Garland
2020: Edwards, LaMelo (Hali, Bane)
2021: Mobley, Barnes, Giddey (Murphy)
2022: Paolo, Chet, Murray, Sharpe (Jalen Duren+Williams)
2023: Wemby


By that count it’s 37-23 for the top 10 guys… close to double. Then guys like Klay, SGA, and Sabonis being picked borderline at 11…

Not sure if I missed anyone tho, but I’m only counting All-Star level players, DPOY guys, and rising stars.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Definitely need both. With the lotto odds nowadays, yeah we need a better staff of talent evaluators in case we drop further down, but we also need a staff to be on the same page and embrace rebuilding/tanking thru the top of the draft.

We haven’t had a good scouting department for as long as I can remember. That’s why we ended up drafting guys like Knox over Mikal and Frank over Donovan, and Obi over Hali (and even IQ over Bane).

But we also haven’t had a staff fully dedicated towards rebuilding/tanking for the top of the draft for as long as it takes. Most of the all-time greatest players have been selected at the top of the draft and the majority of the championships have been won by teams with these guys leading the way.

We need to finally get good scouting and a regime committed to the multi-year tank.

I don't think a multi-year tank is actually needed.

Historically, most great players are found at the top of the draft. But this may no longer be the case.

Over half of the elite players drafted in the last 12-13 years were picked outside the top 10. Sure, there are still your Wembys, your Tatums, your Lukas, and your ADs in the top 5. But I'd argue that a lot if not most of the best talents seen in recent years would not have been drafted by their teams had they actually tanked, e.g., Jokic, Giannis, Jimmy, Kawhi etc. as well as some of the younger stars.

I have been wondering whether this stretch is an aberration or a long-term trend whereby the draft - outside of the odd generational talent - is simply more unpredictable than it used to be. I don't know the answer to that question (*and we very well may be starting to see a reversal of this trend), but I think it's fair to ask.

What having a high pick provides is hope, but the odds that it is met with a satisfying outcome in reality are extremely low.

I get your point, and yeah maybe it’s not as crucial as it once was to be at the very top, but I still think it’s better to be there than being mid or half assing a rebuild like we’ve done in the past.

I’ve always wanted to just see a commitment to youth from players to coaching with a modern system. No vets taking starting spots, just old timers who’ve won and can bestow some wisdom on the young guys and keep the locker room in check. Just build the right way and naturally land in the top of the draft thru inexperience/growing pains.

To the bolded part tho… are you sure about this? Elite stars drafted in top 10 since 2010 (last 13 years)..

2010: PG, Wall, Cousins, Gordy
2011: Kyrie, Kemba (Klay, Kawhi, Jimmy outside)
2012: AD, Dame, Beal (Draymond, Khris)
2013: Dipo (Giannis, Gobert)
2014: Embiid, Smart (Joker)
2015: Towns, KP (Booker, Myles)
2016: Ben, BI, Murray, Jaylen (Siakam, Dejounte, Sabonis)
2017: Tatum, Fox, Lauri (Donovan, Bam)
2018: Luka, Trae, JJJ, Mikal (SGA, MPJ, Brunson)
2019: Zion, Ja, Garland
2020: Edwards, LaMelo (Hali, Bane)
2021: Mobley, Barnes, Giddey (Murphy)
2022: Paolo, Chet, Murray, Sharpe (Jalen Duren+Williams)
2023: Wemby


By that count it’s 37-23 for the top 10 guys… close to double. Then guys like Klay, SGA, and Sabonis being picked borderline at 11…

Not sure if I missed anyone tho, but I’m only counting All-Star level players, DPOY guys, and rising stars.

You left out RJ.

[Chanel Bomber]

Definitely need both. With the lotto odds nowadays, yeah we need a better staff of talent evaluators in case we drop further down, but we also need a staff to be on the same page and embrace rebuilding/tanking thru the top of the draft.

We haven’t had a good scouting department for as long as I can remember. That’s why we ended up drafting guys like Knox over Mikal and Frank over Donovan, and Obi over Hali (and even IQ over Bane).

But we also haven’t had a staff fully dedicated towards rebuilding/tanking for the top of the draft for as long as it takes. Most of the all-time greatest players have been selected at the top of the draft and the majority of the championships have been won by teams with these guys leading the way.

We need to finally get good scouting and a regime committed to the multi-year tank.

I don't think a multi-year tank is actually needed.

Historically, most great players are found at the top of the draft. But this may no longer be the case.

Over half of the elite players drafted in the last 12-13 years were picked outside the top 10. Sure, there are still your Wembys, your Tatums, your Lukas, and your ADs in the top 5. But I'd argue that a lot if not most of the best talents seen in recent years would not have been drafted by their teams had they actually tanked, e.g., Jokic, Giannis, Jimmy, Kawhi etc. as well as some of the younger stars.

I have been wondering whether this stretch is an aberration or a long-term trend whereby the draft - outside of the odd generational talent - is simply more unpredictable than it used to be. I don't know the answer to that question (*and we very well may be starting to see a reversal of this trend), but I think it's fair to ask.

What having a high pick provides is hope, but the odds that it is met with a satisfying outcome in reality are extremely low.

I get your point, and yeah maybe it’s not as crucial as it once was to be at the very top, but I still think it’s better to be there than being mid or half assing a rebuild like we’ve done in the past.

I’ve always wanted to just see a commitment to youth from players to coaching with a modern system. No vets taking starting spots, just old timers who’ve won and can bestow some wisdom on the young guys and keep the locker room in check. Just build the right way and naturally land in the top of the draft thru inexperience/growing pains.

To the bolded part tho… are you sure about this? Elite stars drafted in top 10 since 2010 (last 13 years)..

2010: PG, Wall, Cousins, Gordy
2011: Kyrie, Kemba (Klay, Kawhi, Jimmy outside)
2012: AD, Dame, Beal (Draymond, Khris)
2013: Dipo (Giannis, Gobert)
2014: Embiid, Smart (Joker)
2015: Towns, KP (Booker, Myles)
2016: Ben, BI, Murray, Jaylen (Siakam, Dejounte, Sabonis)
2017: Tatum, Fox, Lauri (Donovan, Bam)
2018: Luka, Trae, JJJ, Mikal (SGA, MPJ, Brunson)
2019: Zion, Ja, Garland
2020: Edwards, LaMelo (Hali, Bane)
2021: Mobley, Barnes, Giddey (Murphy)
2022: Paolo, Chet, Murray, Sharpe (Jalen Duren+Williams)
2023: Wemby


By that count it’s 37-23 for the top 10 guys… close to double. Then guys like Klay, SGA, and Sabonis being picked borderline at 11…

Not sure if I missed anyone tho, but I’m only counting All-Star level players, DPOY guys, and rising stars.

I think it's too early to assess recent drafts because we don't know how these players will pan out, and players drafted high naturally catch our attention while players drafted later can develop in the shadows. I don't necessarily agree with how you classified some of these players as elite either, but I get your point. It's undeniable the odds are higher at the top of the draft than anywhere else.

I just don't think things are as clear-cut as saying "tanking would lead to a better outcome than what we currently have". The Knicks were fairly successful last year. Where would they be if they'd drafted Haliburton instead of Obi then traded for Brunson? Wouldn't they be in a better position today than if they had drafted Wiseman at #2 for instance after subjecting us to unwatchable basketball for another season? Let's not forget how tanking leads to awful basketball.

For context, I was pro-tanking for Wembanyama. Just like I supported them tanking for Zion. I think there are instances where you should put your team-building process on hold to maximize your chances at a superstar talent. And even then, Zion hasn't fulfilled his potential, similar to other generational talents before him.

What I see is that with poor scouting and poor luck you end up drafting RJ over Garland (and I understand it's still early), and Obi over Haliburton. So long as you refuse to improve your scouting process and empower competent talent evaluators, you're more likely to make the wrong decisions regardless of where you land in the draft.

The Knicks have had chances to draft stars where they landed in the draft and missed. In the top 10, but also outside.

[Jalen Bluntson]

I don't think a multi-year tank is actually needed.

Historically, most great players are found at the top of the draft. But this may no longer be the case.

Over half of the elite players drafted in the last 12-13 years were picked outside the top 10. Sure, there are still your Wembys, your Tatums, your Lukas, and your ADs in the top 5. But I'd argue that a lot if not most of the best talents seen in recent years would not have been drafted by their teams had they actually tanked, e.g., Jokic, Giannis, Jimmy, Kawhi etc. as well as some of the younger stars.

I have been wondering whether this stretch is an aberration or a long-term trend whereby the draft - outside of the odd generational talent - is simply more unpredictable than it used to be. I don't know the answer to that question (*and we very well may be starting to see a reversal of this trend), but I think it's fair to ask.

What having a high pick provides is hope, but the odds that it is met with a satisfying outcome in reality are extremely low.

I get your point, and yeah maybe it’s not as crucial as it once was to be at the very top, but I still think it’s better to be there than being mid or half assing a rebuild like we’ve done in the past.

I’ve always wanted to just see a commitment to youth from players to coaching with a modern system. No vets taking starting spots, just old timers who’ve won and can bestow some wisdom on the young guys and keep the locker room in check. Just build the right way and naturally land in the top of the draft thru inexperience/growing pains.

To the bolded part tho… are you sure about this? Elite stars drafted in top 10 since 2010 (last 13 years)..

2010: PG, Wall, Cousins, Gordy
2011: Kyrie, Kemba (Klay, Kawhi, Jimmy outside)
2012: AD, Dame, Beal (Draymond, Khris)
2013: Dipo (Giannis, Gobert)
2014: Embiid, Smart (Joker)
2015: Towns, KP (Booker, Myles)
2016: Ben, BI, Murray, Jaylen (Siakam, Dejounte, Sabonis)
2017: Tatum, Fox, Lauri (Donovan, Bam)
2018: Luka, Trae, JJJ, Mikal (SGA, MPJ, Brunson)
2019: Zion, Ja, Garland
2020: Edwards, LaMelo (Hali, Bane)
2021: Mobley, Barnes, Giddey (Murphy)
2022: Paolo, Chet, Murray, Sharpe (Jalen Duren+Williams)
2023: Wemby


By that count it’s 37-23 for the top 10 guys… close to double. Then guys like Klay, SGA, and Sabonis being picked borderline at 11…

Not sure if I missed anyone tho, but I’m only counting All-Star level players, DPOY guys, and rising stars.

I think it's too early to assess recent drafts because we don't know how these players will pan out, and players drafted high naturally catch our attention while players drafted later can develop in the shadows. I don't necessarily agree with how you classified some of these players as elite either, but I get your point. It's undeniable the odds are higher at the top of the draft than anywhere else.

I just don't think things are as clear-cut as saying "tanking would lead to a better outcome than what we currently have". The Knicks were fairly successful last year. Where would they be if they'd drafted Haliburton instead of Obi then traded for Brunson? Wouldn't they be in a better position today than if they had drafted Wiseman at #2 for instance after subjecting us to unwatchable basketball for another season? Let's not forget how tanking leads to awful basketball.

For context, I was pro-tanking for Wembanyama. Just like I supported them tanking for Zion. I think there are instances where you should put your team-building process on hold to maximize your chances at a superstar talent. And even then, Zion hasn't fulfilled his potential, similar to other generational talents before him.

What I see is that with poor scouting and poor luck you end up drafting RJ over Garland (and I understand it's still early), and Obi over Haliburton. So long as you refuse to improve your scouting process and empower competent talent evaluators, you're more likely to make the wrong decisions regardless of where you land in the draft.

The Knicks have had chances to draft stars where they landed in the draft and missed. In the top 10, but also outside.

Yes.

[Chanel Bomber]

I get your point, and yeah maybe it’s not as crucial as it once was to be at the very top, but I still think it’s better to be there than being mid or half assing a rebuild like we’ve done in the past.

I’ve always wanted to just see a commitment to youth from players to coaching with a modern system. No vets taking starting spots, just old timers who’ve won and can bestow some wisdom on the young guys and keep the locker room in check. Just build the right way and naturally land in the top of the draft thru inexperience/growing pains.

To the bolded part tho… are you sure about this? Elite stars drafted in top 10 since 2010 (last 13 years)..

2010: PG, Wall, Cousins, Gordy
2011: Kyrie, Kemba (Klay, Kawhi, Jimmy outside)
2012: AD, Dame, Beal (Draymond, Khris)
2013: Dipo (Giannis, Gobert)
2014: Embiid, Smart (Joker)
2015: Towns, KP (Booker, Myles)
2016: Ben, BI, Murray, Jaylen (Siakam, Dejounte, Sabonis)
2017: Tatum, Fox, Lauri (Donovan, Bam)
2018: Luka, Trae, JJJ, Mikal (SGA, MPJ, Brunson)
2019: Zion, Ja, Garland
2020: Edwards, LaMelo (Hali, Bane)
2021: Mobley, Barnes, Giddey (Murphy)
2022: Paolo, Chet, Murray, Sharpe (Jalen Duren+Williams)
2023: Wemby


By that count it’s 37-23 for the top 10 guys… close to double. Then guys like Klay, SGA, and Sabonis being picked borderline at 11…

Not sure if I missed anyone tho, but I’m only counting All-Star level players, DPOY guys, and rising stars.

I think it's too early to assess recent drafts because we don't know how these players will pan out, and players drafted high naturally catch our attention while players drafted later can develop in the shadows. I don't necessarily agree with how you classified some of these players as elite either, but I get your point. It's undeniable the odds are higher at the top of the draft than anywhere else.

I just don't think things are as clear-cut as saying "tanking would lead to a better outcome than what we currently have". The Knicks were fairly successful last year. Where would they be if they'd drafted Haliburton instead of Obi then traded for Brunson? Wouldn't they be in a better position today than if they had drafted Wiseman at #2 for instance after subjecting us to unwatchable basketball for another season? Let's not forget how tanking leads to awful basketball.

For context, I was pro-tanking for Wembanyama. Just like I supported them tanking for Zion. I think there are instances where you should put your team-building process on hold to maximize your chances at a superstar talent. And even then, Zion hasn't fulfilled his potential, similar to other generational talents before him.

What I see is that with poor scouting and poor luck you end up drafting RJ over Garland (and I understand it's still early), and Obi over Haliburton. So long as you refuse to improve your scouting process and empower competent talent evaluators, you're more likely to make the wrong decisions regardless of where you land in the draft.

The Knicks have had chances to draft stars where they landed in the draft and missed. In the top 10, but also outside.

Yes.

Will you please make up your mind

[Jalen Bluntson]

I think it's too early to assess recent drafts because we don't know how these players will pan out, and players drafted high naturally catch our attention while players drafted later can develop in the shadows. I don't necessarily agree with how you classified some of these players as elite either, but I get your point. It's undeniable the odds are higher at the top of the draft than anywhere else.

I just don't think things are as clear-cut as saying "tanking would lead to a better outcome than what we currently have". The Knicks were fairly successful last year. Where would they be if they'd drafted Haliburton instead of Obi then traded for Brunson? Wouldn't they be in a better position today than if they had drafted Wiseman at #2 for instance after subjecting us to unwatchable basketball for another season? Let's not forget how tanking leads to awful basketball.

For context, I was pro-tanking for Wembanyama. Just like I supported them tanking for Zion. I think there are instances where you should put your team-building process on hold to maximize your chances at a superstar talent. And even then, Zion hasn't fulfilled his potential, similar to other generational talents before him.

What I see is that with poor scouting and poor luck you end up drafting RJ over Garland (and I understand it's still early), and Obi over Haliburton. So long as you refuse to improve your scouting process and empower competent talent evaluators, you're more likely to make the wrong decisions regardless of where you land in the draft.

The Knicks have had chances to draft stars where they landed in the draft and missed. In the top 10, but also outside.

Yes.

Will you please make up your mind

No.

You had to see that coming!

The Knicks didn't invest enough time in the draft. Period. Scouting or "tanking". They needed to come out of that RJ draft looking to play kids and live with the results. Staying with the draft until they landed an actual star level player BEFORE they fleshed out the rest of the roster. Trying to make the playoffs while rebuilding only works with a rookie contract star on the roster. They skipped a step.

Regardless of picks they missed on and players like Giannis/Jokic etc getting passed them. A lot of teams missed out on the players mentioned. They needed a cornerstone to move forward with. They didn't get one.

[Chanel Bomber]

Yes.

Will you please make up your mind

No.

You had to see that coming!

The Knicks didn't invest enough time in the draft. Period. Scouting or "tanking". They needed to come out of that RJ draft looking to play kids and live with the results. Staying with the draft until they landed an actual star level player BEFORE they fleshed out the rest of the roster. Trying to make the playoffs while rebuilding only works with a rookie contract star on the roster. They skipped a step.

Regardless of picks they missed on and players like Giannis/Jokic etc getting passed them. A lot of teams missed out on the players mentioned. They needed a cornerstone to move forward with. They didn't get one.

I don't think there's a set process for team building.

The Raptors really took off after trading for Lowry - and even they weren't expecting him to become a Hall-of-Fame point guard in his late 20s. If Randle had his head screwed on right, he might have been that player for us. There are many different ways to build.

The Knicks did miss a cornerstone in the draft. My point was that I believe talent evaluation has been a bigger issue than the lack of tanking in my opinion. They had their opportunities. Last season, 8 of the 17 players on the roster were drafted by the Knicks. That's a high number. But - and things may change in the coming years - they drafted RJ over Garland, Obi over Haliburton, IQ over Bane, Deuce over JT Thor (!!!!!!!!!!!), and having better odds or draft position would've necessarily have changed that.