Knicks Core vs. Nets Core

[K_ick_God]

Just pre-season but Brook Lopez looked pretty bad in these two games v. Knicks. 5-18 last night which is terrible for someone shooting within 5 feet of the rim. The guy is a good player who really doesn't have the tools or mobility to be a great center in this league. The Nets' best hope of having a great nucleus is to get a great player in the Draft. They seem certain to be a lottery team (itself an indicator that their core talent is underwhelming). But if they can pull a top 3-5 pick, they'll be in good shape. It's not their current players, however, that make the Nets a great young club. They are just not that by any stretch.

[j4remi]

Only thing he improved was getting to the line aka flopping and whining.

Check his TS%, his PER, and his AST%. You can dismiss him all you want, but the stats are there.

TS and PER are both a result of getting all those FT's (and converting). His effectiveness will be really tested now that VC is gone and he's supposed to lead, so let's see how the team looks. Aside from empty stats (which make him valuable in a fantasy league), all I see is an overrated player on a losing team.

[duetta]

Nets will be drafting in the top 5 next draft. That's when they'll get a stud. At this point, while I like Lopez, he doesn't appear to be on the road to elite status, and Harris is a shoot-first point, the type who doesn't make his teammates better.

Given the economic crisis that NYC is likely to face, the Nets owners should expect no favors when attempting to build that Brooklyn arena. The Nets belong in Newark, where an arena already exists. There's no way in hell that the people of NYC will be happy about aiding a Russian billionaire's quest to get richer - and given these times, if they try to force a taxpayer subsidized arena on a people who don't want or need another team, they'll have a revolution on their hands.

[K_ick_God]

TS and PER are both a result of getting all those FT's (and converting). His effectiveness will be really tested now that VC is gone and he's supposed to lead, so let's see how the team looks. Aside from empty stats (which make him valuable in a fantasy league), all I see is an overrated player on a losing team.

I'm curious how Devin will do without Dirk or Vince by his side.

Look, nobody is saying he's a bad player of course. He's a good player. He's just not as good as a lot of people say.

No amount of numbers are going to convince me that the guy is a natural point. He is not. Averaging 8 assists does not make it so either. See Marbury, Stephon.

He's a driver and a defender, but not a distributor. He's a kind of shoot-first PG but he's not a good shooter. If you're not a natural point, then I'd prefer you to be able to hit 3's at a nice clip. See Williams, Mo. Devin can't do that either. He can break you down off the dribble but if he's not either a natural point or a very good shooter, and he is neither, then I see that as somewhat problematic at the point.

[jeff1624]

Just pre-season but Brook Lopez looked pretty bad in these two games v. Knicks. 5-18 last night which is terrible for someone shooting within 5 feet of the rim. The guy is a good player who really doesn't have the tools or mobility to be a great center in this league. The Nets' best hope of having a great nucleus is to get a great player in the Draft. They seem certain to be a lottery team (itself an indicator that their core talent is underwhelming). But if they can pull a top 3-5 pick, they'll be in good shape. It's not their current players, however, that make the Nets a great young club. They are just not that by any stretch.

Did my post really just get eliminated just because I stated Gallinari's stats this preseason... wow.. No biggie.. i'll post em again..

8.6 PPG 4.3 RPG .306 FG%..

If Brook lopez peaked because he struggled in 2 games what can you say about Gallinari then??

[K_ick_God]

Just pre-season but Brook Lopez looked pretty bad in these two games v. Knicks. 5-18 last night which is terrible for someone shooting within 5 feet of the rim. The guy is a good player who really doesn't have the tools or mobility to be a great center in this league. The Nets' best hope of having a great nucleus is to get a great player in the Draft. They seem certain to be a lottery team (itself an indicator that their core talent is underwhelming). But if they can pull a top 3-5 pick, they'll be in good shape. It's not their current players, however, that make the Nets a great young club. They are just not that by any stretch.

Did my post really just get eliminated just because I stated Gallinari's stats this preseason... wow.. No biggie.. i'll post em again..

8.6 PPG 4.3 RPG .306 FG%..

If Brook lopez peaked because he struggled in 2 games what can you say about Gallinari then??

I guess we'll just have to say Gallinari is as bad as Lopez then.

Listen, Jeff from NYC, I respect your passion for your team, I just don't think you are as knowledgeable about the weaknesses of your favorite team's players as others on the RealGM forums.

What I suspect is that you were sure that you had an emerging stud in Brook Lopez, I told you (before the first pre-season game) that I didn't think so and that you should wait a minute on getting too enthusiastic about him, then Brook has started to show his flaws as a kind of blocky center who is not mobile enough to be great (exactly as I had said), you got a little mad about that, the Nets couldn't win a single pre-season game, and now with that anger and hurt building up inside of you, the only thing left for you to do was to "sig" something I said that I stand by and that many people who know a lot about basketball wouldn't necessarily disagree with and probably few of whom would find 'lol funny' as you apparently do.

So I'm glad you care about your team Jeff from NYC. I just think you yourself are coming to the realization that Brook is not the next Tim Duncan. If your RealGM signature block will help you ease some of your disappointment, then I support that too. I do think though, to be fair, it doesn't exactly make you seem more knowledgeable or rational about basketball.

Cheers.

[j4remi]

Just pre-season but Brook Lopez looked pretty bad in these two games v. Knicks. 5-18 last night which is terrible for someone shooting within 5 feet of the rim. The guy is a good player who really doesn't have the tools or mobility to be a great center in this league. The Nets' best hope of having a great nucleus is to get a great player in the Draft. They seem certain to be a lottery team (itself an indicator that their core talent is underwhelming). But if they can pull a top 3-5 pick, they'll be in good shape. It's not their current players, however, that make the Nets a great young club. They are just not that by any stretch.

Did my post really just get eliminated just because I stated Gallinari's stats this preseason... wow.. No biggie.. i'll post em again..

8.6 PPG 4.3 RPG .306 FG%..

If Brook lopez peaked because he struggled in 2 games what can you say about Gallinari then??

Gallo had a piss poor preseason, no one said he didn't...but he showed flashes of real technique and improvement...Lopez just doesn't have much room to grow in my book.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

Lopez v. Gallo is not really close to me. You can *find* bigs like Lopez but if Gallo pans out, he's special.

Of course you can - in the last 20 years here are the C's that avg'd 13 & 8 or better in their rookie years:

David Robinson
Shaq
Dikembe Mutumbo
Emeka Okafor
Arvydis Sabonis
Z Ilgauskis
Yao Ming and...
Brook Lopez

Oh, and Brook was younger than every single one of them.

[TKF]

Lopez v. Gallo is not really close to me. You can *find* bigs like Lopez but if Gallo pans out, he's special.

Of course you can - in the last 20 years here are the C's that avg'd 13 & 8 or better in their rookie years:

David Robinson
Shaq
Dikembe Mutumbo
Emeka Okafor
Arvydis Sabonis
Z Ilgauskis
Yao Ming and...
Brook Lopez

Oh, and Brook was younger than every single one of them.

I hate these misleading first year stats. Doesn't project what a player will be longterm. First of all, Robinson, shaq, were raw, but their ceilings were extremely high. Mutombo was a defensive speicalist, I don't see lopez ever being on that level, and I doubt he will be the defender okafor is. Sabonis? by time he came to the states, his knees were shot, I heard he was a beast overseas. Yao is bigger and offensively better than lopez may ever be... Big Z? never really cared for him. If Big z or even okafor is his ceiling, then I guess those who don't see much growth in lopez are correct. I can tell you his ceiling is not that of Robinson or shaq.

[j4remi]

Of course, many rookie C's don't come into immediate minutes or need development. The problem I have with Lopez is I don't see improvement thus far and I don't see where he really will improve. Maybe I'm wrong, but look at all of those rookies and watch Brook's...watch the games don't do that numbers thing because numbers don't tell the whole story (Stephon Marbury says hi)...do you really think Lopez even compares with these guys?

[K_ick_God]

Lopez v. Gallo is not really close to me. You can *find* bigs like Lopez but if Gallo pans out, he's special.

Of course you can - in the last 20 years here are the C's that avg'd 13 & 8 or better in their rookie years:

David Robinson
Shaq
Dikembe Mutumbo
Emeka Okafor
Arvydis Sabonis
Z Ilgauskis
Yao Ming and...
Brook Lopez

Oh, and Brook was younger than every single one of them.

OK thanks for the information/stats. I think stats are a good way to try to understand the game and make sense of it all and you are doing a good job with that.

To build off your list: My own analysis is that Brook is going to be closer to a guy like Ilgausaks or Emeka Okafor, just in terms of the level/quality he reaches (not as much in terms of their actual games). As far as game/player type, I see Brook as a better, more mobile Luc Longley. A rich man's Luc I would say. How rich? Not sure yet. Maybe filthy rich, maybe just well off. But that's his comparison to me.

I guess he is somewhat like Zydrunas or a guy like Rik Smits but both those guys were better shooters, less mobile. I think Rik is Brook's ceiling offensively, as far as where he lands in the pecking order -- a good secondary scorer, very good third scorer on a good team. He'll be better defensively than those guys. How much better? Again not sure. I think Brook is a good defensive anchor, maybe very good, but I again do not believe he has great defensive potential.

Just like Devin's 20 and 8 doesn't tell the whole story (or even much of it to me -- see Marbury, Stephon), I don't think 13 and 8 is quite good enough to give us a lot of insight into his potential or where he's heading. The numbers definitely show that Brook is quality, but the thing is, there is a wide chasm between the impact that a guy like Ilgauskas makes in his career and a guy like Shaq or Robinson. Right?

I think you have to watch a guy play, see what he does well and doesn't, get a sense of his raw tools to see how much growth/ceiling he has, and then go from there. You prefer to start with stats and finish with the more "detailed" stats that sites like ESPN promote (PER, etc.), and I respect your way of going about it and analyzing the game. I just don't quite see eye to eye on this with you and other similar kinds of posters.

[j4remi]

Took all of three minutes for three seperate posts to say "come on dude...get real. What are you Robin?"

[CzBoobie]

Why is Douglas wearing LeBron's jersey?

[Capn'O]

Brook is a good big and Emeka is probably a good comparison for him. Brook will be the better offensive player and Emeka the better defender but close in overall abilities and impact. A good player for the right situation.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to compare him with Gallo who is a completely different kind of player. This preseason, Gallo was clearly making an adjustment to playing healthy again and playing in this league. Not trying to make excuses but let's let him play some games this season before saying who he is and isn't better than lest you end up looking foolish later.

[legoli]

Most knick fans overrate other team's talent IMO.

Devin Harris is a 20point/6assist type of PG on decent shooting percentage with decent defense. Harrington is a 20point/6rebound player with decent shooting percentage and decent defense. I mean let us not hype up other team's good players like they are all-stars or something.

The Nets a potential good Center and a star (not all-star) PG IMO who is more of a combo guard anyways. The rest looks like decent role players right now. The Knicks don't have a player on the same level as Harris but a lot of players who are just a tad bit under him. If I had to rate the player's current value from both teams it'd look like this:

1.Harris
2.Lopez--Lee (tie)
3.Harrington
4.Nate
5.Chandler
6.Gallo-Courtney (tie)
7.CDR
8.Williams

[Capn'O]

Most knick fans overrate other team's talent IMO.

Devin Harris is a 20point/6assist type of PG on decent shooting percentage with decent defense. Harrington is a 20point/6rebound player with decent shooting percentage and decent defense. I mean let us not hype up other team's good players like they are all-stars or something.

The Nets a potential good Center and a star (not all-star) PG IMO who is more of a combo guard anyways. The rest looks like decent role players right now. The Knicks don't have a player on the same level as Harris but a lot of players who are just a tad bit under him. If I had to rate the player's current value from both teams it'd look like this:

1.Harris
2.Lopez--Lee (tie)
3.Harrington
4.Nate
5.Chandler
6.Gallo-Courtney (tie)
7.CDR
8.Williams

This post is

Though I'd have Harrington in a 3 way tie...

[Magilla_Gorilla]

I hate these misleading first year stats. Doesn't project what a player will be longterm. First of all, Robinson, shaq, were raw, but their ceilings were extremely high. Mutombo was a defensive speicalist, I don't see lopez ever being on that level, and I doubt he will be the defender okafor is. Sabonis? by time he came to the states, his knees were shot, I heard he was a beast overseas. Yao is bigger and offensively better than lopez may ever be... Big Z? never really cared for him. If Big z or even okafor is his ceiling, then I guess those who don't see much growth in lopez are correct. I can tell you his ceiling is not that of Robinson or shaq.

My post wasn't trying to attach any future expectations on Lopez - it was simply an illustration of how rare it is for a rookie C to come in and put up those numbers. Obviously Shaq, Robinsons, and Mournings numbers all blow Lopez's away - they were much better.

C's who put up those numbers their rookie year are not easy to find and the list above illustrates that. Lopez may never get any better - but thats not what i was arguing.

[K_ick_God]

1.Harris
2.Lopez--Lee (tie)
3.Harrington
4.Nate
5.Chandler
6.Gallo-Courtney (tie)
7.CDR
8.Williams

Now *this* is pretty smart. I don't agree with everything on your list but I can live with it as far as value goes since that to a large extent is determined by performance to date. And no matter what, Devin is the most proven commodity (with an actual track record) right now. By that token, I'd put Lee ahead of Lopez but I don't have a major problem with your pecking order here.

However I'd say that in the relatively short-term *future* (which after all is really the more important list in this analysis/prediction) goes something like this:

1. Gallo
2. Lopez
3. Chandler
4. Courtney
5. D. Harris
5. D. Lee
6. Harrington
7. CDR

[moocow007]

Obviously theirs is better... Sad but true.

Pretty much.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

1.Harris
2.Lopez--Lee (tie)
3.Harrington
4.Nate
5.Chandler
6.Gallo-Courtney (tie)
7.CDR
8.Williams

Now *this* is pretty smart. I don't agree with everything on your list but I can live with it as far as value goes since that to a large extent is determined by performance to date. And no matter what, Devin is the most proven commodity (with an actual track record) right now. By that token, I'd put Lee ahead of Lopez but I don't have a major problem with your pecking order here.

However I'd say that in the relatively short-term *future* (which after all is really the more important list in this analysis/prediction) goes something like this:

1. Gallo
2. Lopez
3. Chandler
4. Courtney
5. D. Harris
5. D. Lee
6. Harrington
7. CDR

You honestly believe that by the end of the year that GM's would trade Harris and Lopez for Gallo and Chandler?