Moderators: Deeeez Knicks, dakomish23, mpharris36, j4remi, NoLayupRule, GONYK, Jeff Van Gully, HerSports85
mpharris36 wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:mpharris36 wrote:
I’ve been pretty high on him since December. Kept mouth shut on him for a while cause of BAF purposes
You did mention he really wasn't in our range if we are picking in the 6-8 range though....
3toheadmelo wrote:mpharris36 wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:I’ve been pretty high on him since December. Kept mouth shut on him for a while cause of BAF purposes
You did mention he really wasn't in our range if we are picking in the 6-8 range though....
To get him to fall to me when I was projected to be in that range
mpharris36 wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:mpharris36 wrote:
You did mention he really wasn't in our range if we are picking in the 6-8 range though....
To get him to fall to me when I was projected to be in that range
daaaaamn
so you don't like Obi after all.
Aiight I got you
HEZI wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:HEZI wrote:BricKillian Hayes won't beat Frank for starting PG role next season, can guarantee that. Explain to me how he's an upgrade? "He needs more time to develop" is just a term for he's just not that good right now
Over Frank? He has a much more aggressive attitude/style then Frank. Much more of a scoring mentality, and has more in his playmaking bag then Frank as a faciliator. Can shoot off the dribble and potentially create some offense, where Frank's not really doing that.
Could even just start both Frank and Hayes together and go with the French connection backcourt.
A lot of younger rookies need time. Just the way it is. He's only 18, where Cole and Haliburton are 20...they have some extra time on him
3rd year Frank isn't going to allow a raw project like Hayes to come in and take his minutes. Hayes is a turnover machine, from his passes to his sloppy ball handling he's going to get his cookies taken a lot especially in the NBA. He also lacks range and can't shoot NBA 3s and is just comfortable taking long 2s which is meh. Frank is way more ready and experienced going into his 3rd year than Hayes will be as a rookie. I just don't see Hayes being a guy that is ready for a lead role on the Knicks, with all the pressure and adjustment to not only the league but to New York City in general. Frank will destroy him in practice and Hayes won't be getting many minutes on the Knicks. Hayes needs to go to a team like Detroit and suck there for a while while getting minutes.
Deeeez Knicks wrote:HEZI wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Over Frank? He has a much more aggressive attitude/style then Frank. Much more of a scoring mentality, and has more in his playmaking bag then Frank as a faciliator. Can shoot off the dribble and potentially create some offense, where Frank's not really doing that.
Could even just start both Frank and Hayes together and go with the French connection backcourt.
A lot of younger rookies need time. Just the way it is. He's only 18, where Cole and Haliburton are 20...they have some extra time on him
3rd year Frank isn't going to allow a raw project like Hayes to come in and take his minutes. Hayes is a turnover machine, from his passes to his sloppy ball handling he's going to get his cookies taken a lot especially in the NBA. He also lacks range and can't shoot NBA 3s and is just comfortable taking long 2s which is meh. Frank is way more ready and experienced going into his 3rd year than Hayes will be as a rookie. I just don't see Hayes being a guy that is ready for a lead role on the Knicks, with all the pressure and adjustment to not only the league but to New York City in general. Frank will destroy him in practice and Hayes won't be getting many minutes on the Knicks. Hayes needs to go to a team like Detroit and suck there for a while while getting minutes.
Who cares about Frank? He has more experience then anyone in the draft but it doesnt really matter. There should be plenty of minutes for any lotto pick to play while we suck. We are worse then Detroit and not turning it around next year. Tank on. I do get the concerns about playing in NY, but that is the same for anyone we draft in this one.
I dont know if Hayes will be ready to take over day 1 but even if he comes off the bench there should be minutes. I want to see more 2 PG lineups where we play Hayes with Frank or another PG or even let RJ handle the ball a bit.. Bring in multiple ball handlers to take the pressure off. Hayes was the primary facilitator on his pro team and played well so I dont think he is that far away. Maybe it takes until year 2, or 3 to see a big breakout. I am ok with that. It could be sooner though with the way Hayes was improving. I was never a big Frank guy at the draft. He looked like much more of a project then Hayes.
3toheadmelo wrote:mpharris36 wrote:3toheadmelo wrote:To get him to fall to me when I was projected to be in that range
daaaaamn
so you don't like Obi after all.
Aiight I got you
No I actually like Obi lol what I said about him is how I really feel about him. I think he does have star potential
HEZI wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:HEZI wrote:
3rd year Frank isn't going to allow a raw project like Hayes to come in and take his minutes. Hayes is a turnover machine, from his passes to his sloppy ball handling he's going to get his cookies taken a lot especially in the NBA. He also lacks range and can't shoot NBA 3s and is just comfortable taking long 2s which is meh. Frank is way more ready and experienced going into his 3rd year than Hayes will be as a rookie. I just don't see Hayes being a guy that is ready for a lead role on the Knicks, with all the pressure and adjustment to not only the league but to New York City in general. Frank will destroy him in practice and Hayes won't be getting many minutes on the Knicks. Hayes needs to go to a team like Detroit and suck there for a while while getting minutes.
Who cares about Frank? He has more experience then anyone in the draft but it doesnt really matter. There should be plenty of minutes for any lotto pick to play while we suck. We are worse then Detroit and not turning it around next year. Tank on. I do get the concerns about playing in NY, but that is the same for anyone we draft in this one.
I dont know if Hayes will be ready to take over day 1 but even if he comes off the bench there should be minutes. I want to see more 2 PG lineups where we play Hayes with Frank or another PG or even let RJ handle the ball a bit.. Bring in multiple ball handlers to take the pressure off. Hayes was the primary facilitator on his pro team and played well so I dont think he is that far away. Maybe it takes until year 2, or 3 to see a big breakout. I am ok with that. It could be sooner though with the way Hayes was improving. I was never a big Frank guy at the draft. He looked like much more of a project then Hayes.
It actually matters quite a bit. Drafting a player who can't beat Frank for starter minutes is a waste of a lottery pick. It makes no sense whatsoever. The goal is to upgrade and improve, not waste a pick for a project bench player. There are plenty of guys lower in the draft we can take those risks with. Don't need to waste lotto pick on Hayes, who we would take only because we are looking for a guard and not at all because he's the BPA or best talent. A lot of guys are far better than him so we need to take those guys. Just because we are ok with tanking again next year and being bad doesn't mean we go and waste picks.
Gravy wrote:HEZI wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Who cares about Frank? He has more experience then anyone in the draft but it doesnt really matter. There should be plenty of minutes for any lotto pick to play while we suck. We are worse then Detroit and not turning it around next year. Tank on. I do get the concerns about playing in NY, but that is the same for anyone we draft in this one.
I dont know if Hayes will be ready to take over day 1 but even if he comes off the bench there should be minutes. I want to see more 2 PG lineups where we play Hayes with Frank or another PG or even let RJ handle the ball a bit.. Bring in multiple ball handlers to take the pressure off. Hayes was the primary facilitator on his pro team and played well so I dont think he is that far away. Maybe it takes until year 2, or 3 to see a big breakout. I am ok with that. It could be sooner though with the way Hayes was improving. I was never a big Frank guy at the draft. He looked like much more of a project then Hayes.
It actually matters quite a bit. Drafting a player who can't beat Frank for starter minutes is a waste of a lottery pick. It makes no sense whatsoever. The goal is to upgrade and improve, not waste a pick for a project bench player. There are plenty of guys lower in the draft we can take those risks with. Don't need to waste lotto pick on Hayes, who we would take only because we are looking for a guard and not at all because he's the BPA or best talent. A lot of guys are far better than him so we need to take those guys. Just because we are ok with tanking again next year and being bad doesn't mean we go and waste picks.
I'm not super high on Hayes or anything but I can't see Frank destroying anyone in practice. At best Frank will play tough defense and the new pg would have to be DSJ levels of terrible for Frank to win the job.
HEZI wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:HEZI wrote:
3rd year Frank isn't going to allow a raw project like Hayes to come in and take his minutes. Hayes is a turnover machine, from his passes to his sloppy ball handling he's going to get his cookies taken a lot especially in the NBA. He also lacks range and can't shoot NBA 3s and is just comfortable taking long 2s which is meh. Frank is way more ready and experienced going into his 3rd year than Hayes will be as a rookie. I just don't see Hayes being a guy that is ready for a lead role on the Knicks, with all the pressure and adjustment to not only the league but to New York City in general. Frank will destroy him in practice and Hayes won't be getting many minutes on the Knicks. Hayes needs to go to a team like Detroit and suck there for a while while getting minutes.
Who cares about Frank? He has more experience then anyone in the draft but it doesnt really matter. There should be plenty of minutes for any lotto pick to play while we suck. We are worse then Detroit and not turning it around next year. Tank on. I do get the concerns about playing in NY, but that is the same for anyone we draft in this one.
I dont know if Hayes will be ready to take over day 1 but even if he comes off the bench there should be minutes. I want to see more 2 PG lineups where we play Hayes with Frank or another PG or even let RJ handle the ball a bit.. Bring in multiple ball handlers to take the pressure off. Hayes was the primary facilitator on his pro team and played well so I dont think he is that far away. Maybe it takes until year 2, or 3 to see a big breakout. I am ok with that. It could be sooner though with the way Hayes was improving. I was never a big Frank guy at the draft. He looked like much more of a project then Hayes.
It actually matters quite a bit. Drafting a player who can't beat Frank for starter minutes is a waste of a lottery pick. It makes no sense whatsoever. The goal is to upgrade and improve, not waste a pick for a project bench player. There are plenty of guys lower in the draft we can take those risks with. Don't need to waste lotto pick on Hayes, who we would take only because we are looking for a guard and not at all because he's the BPA or best talent. A lot of guys are far better than him so we need to take those guys. Just because we are ok with tanking again next year and being bad doesn't mean we go and waste picks.
HEZI wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:HEZI wrote:
3rd year Frank isn't going to allow a raw project like Hayes to come in and take his minutes. Hayes is a turnover machine, from his passes to his sloppy ball handling he's going to get his cookies taken a lot especially in the NBA. He also lacks range and can't shoot NBA 3s and is just comfortable taking long 2s which is meh. Frank is way more ready and experienced going into his 3rd year than Hayes will be as a rookie. I just don't see Hayes being a guy that is ready for a lead role on the Knicks, with all the pressure and adjustment to not only the league but to New York City in general. Frank will destroy him in practice and Hayes won't be getting many minutes on the Knicks. Hayes needs to go to a team like Detroit and suck there for a while while getting minutes.
Who cares about Frank? He has more experience then anyone in the draft but it doesnt really matter. There should be plenty of minutes for any lotto pick to play while we suck. We are worse then Detroit and not turning it around next year. Tank on. I do get the concerns about playing in NY, but that is the same for anyone we draft in this one.
I dont know if Hayes will be ready to take over day 1 but even if he comes off the bench there should be minutes. I want to see more 2 PG lineups where we play Hayes with Frank or another PG or even let RJ handle the ball a bit.. Bring in multiple ball handlers to take the pressure off. Hayes was the primary facilitator on his pro team and played well so I dont think he is that far away. Maybe it takes until year 2, or 3 to see a big breakout. I am ok with that. It could be sooner though with the way Hayes was improving. I was never a big Frank guy at the draft. He looked like much more of a project then Hayes.
It actually matters quite a bit. Drafting a player who can't beat Frank for starter minutes is a waste of a lottery pick. It makes no sense whatsoever. The goal is to upgrade and improve, not waste a pick for a project bench player. There are plenty of guys lower in the draft we can take those risks with. Don't need to waste lotto pick on Hayes, who we would take only because we are looking for a guard and not at all because he's the BPA or best talent. A lot of guys are far better than him so we need to take those guys. Just because we are ok with tanking again next year and being bad doesn't mean we go and waste picks.
HEZI wrote:Gravy wrote:HEZI wrote:
It actually matters quite a bit. Drafting a player who can't beat Frank for starter minutes is a waste of a lottery pick. It makes no sense whatsoever. The goal is to upgrade and improve, not waste a pick for a project bench player. There are plenty of guys lower in the draft we can take those risks with. Don't need to waste lotto pick on Hayes, who we would take only because we are looking for a guard and not at all because he's the BPA or best talent. A lot of guys are far better than him so we need to take those guys. Just because we are ok with tanking again next year and being bad doesn't mean we go and waste picks.
I'm not super high on Hayes or anything but I can't see Frank destroying anyone in practice. At best Frank will play tough defense and the new pg would have to be DSJ levels of terrible for Frank to win the job.
Frank is better offensively than Hayes so that won't be hard to do
mpharris36 wrote:HEZI wrote:Deeeez Knicks wrote:
Who cares about Frank? He has more experience then anyone in the draft but it doesnt really matter. There should be plenty of minutes for any lotto pick to play while we suck. We are worse then Detroit and not turning it around next year. Tank on. I do get the concerns about playing in NY, but that is the same for anyone we draft in this one.
I dont know if Hayes will be ready to take over day 1 but even if he comes off the bench there should be minutes. I want to see more 2 PG lineups where we play Hayes with Frank or another PG or even let RJ handle the ball a bit.. Bring in multiple ball handlers to take the pressure off. Hayes was the primary facilitator on his pro team and played well so I dont think he is that far away. Maybe it takes until year 2, or 3 to see a big breakout. I am ok with that. It could be sooner though with the way Hayes was improving. I was never a big Frank guy at the draft. He looked like much more of a project then Hayes.
It actually matters quite a bit. Drafting a player who can't beat Frank for starter minutes is a waste of a lottery pick. It makes no sense whatsoever. The goal is to upgrade and improve, not waste a pick for a project bench player. There are plenty of guys lower in the draft we can take those risks with. Don't need to waste lotto pick on Hayes, who we would take only because we are looking for a guard and not at all because he's the BPA or best talent. A lot of guys are far better than him so we need to take those guys. Just because we are ok with tanking again next year and being bad doesn't mean we go and waste picks.
I mean thats personal preference right? Because I know a lot of people that think Hayes is a top 5 player in this draft.
I know you don't like him and you absolutely can feel that way but I believe you are in the minority when you say there are a lot of guys that are far better than him. Especially when comparing a guy like Cole to Hayes.
/photo/1
mpharris36 wrote:HEZI wrote:Gravy wrote:I'm not super high on Hayes or anything but I can't see Frank destroying anyone in practice. At best Frank will play tough defense and the new pg would have to be DSJ levels of terrible for Frank to win the job.
Frank is better offensively than Hayes so that won't be hard to do
you are talking to one of the biggest frank fans on this board. And even I think that is a ridiculous comment
HEZI wrote:mpharris36 wrote:HEZI wrote:
It actually matters quite a bit. Drafting a player who can't beat Frank for starter minutes is a waste of a lottery pick. It makes no sense whatsoever. The goal is to upgrade and improve, not waste a pick for a project bench player. There are plenty of guys lower in the draft we can take those risks with. Don't need to waste lotto pick on Hayes, who we would take only because we are looking for a guard and not at all because he's the BPA or best talent. A lot of guys are far better than him so we need to take those guys. Just because we are ok with tanking again next year and being bad doesn't mean we go and waste picks.
I mean thats personal preference right? Because I know a lot of people that think Hayes is a top 5 player in this draft.
I know you don't like him and you absolutely can feel that way but I believe you are in the minority when you say there are a lot of guys that are far better than him. Especially when comparing a guy like Cole to Hayes.
/photo/1
This means nothing. He's high on the board as a "potential" prospect not because he's actually the best player. He's not better than Tre Jones or even Cassius Winston right now, lets be real. And I'm not even factoring in other positions but just from PG spot he's not even amongst the best in this class. He's one of the youngest in the class, that's the main reason he's that high.
HEZI wrote:mpharris36 wrote:HEZI wrote:
Frank is better offensively than Hayes so that won't be hard to do
you are talking to one of the biggest frank fans on this board. And even I think that is a ridiculous comment
Year 2 Frank with a much tighter and cleaner ball handling than Hayes. Much quicker burst and first step than Hayes. Didn't shoot much but he played a lot with Randle and Morris and if Hayes did too he won't be getting shots either. Year 3 Frank will be even better. It's a no contest
mpharris36 wrote:HEZI wrote:mpharris36 wrote:
I mean thats personal preference right? Because I know a lot of people that think Hayes is a top 5 player in this draft.
I know you don't like him and you absolutely can feel that way but I believe you are in the minority when you say there are a lot of guys that are far better than him. Especially when comparing a guy like Cole to Hayes.
/photo/1
This means nothing. He's high on the board as a "potential" prospect not because he's actually the best player. He's not better than Tre Jones or even Cassius Winston right now, lets be real. And I'm not even factoring in other positions but just from PG spot he's not even amongst the best in this class. He's one of the youngest in the class, that's the main reason he's that high.
who drafts prospects based on there immediate impact...I hope to god no one does that because that would be insanity especially with guys this young.
You have to draft on what they could potentially become...obviously some have higher ceilings and some have higher floors but you are drafting them to control them for 8+ years ideally.
Not who might have more of an impact in year 1. If you are looking for immediate impact you might as well just trade your first rounder for a sure thing that has proven it in the NBA.
mpharris36 wrote:HEZI wrote:mpharris36 wrote:
you are talking to one of the biggest frank fans on this board. And even I think that is a ridiculous comment
Year 2 Frank with a much tighter and cleaner ball handling than Hayes. Much quicker burst and first step than Hayes. Didn't shoot much but he played a lot with Randle and Morris and if Hayes did too he won't be getting shots either. Year 3 Frank will be even better. It's a no contest
Trust me I watched that video 10 times already. It gives me all types of tingles.
But Hayes is simply more advanced offensively than frank in terms of every category outside of spot up shooting.
Hayes has a floater, he has a step back jumper, he gets into the paint more consistently then Frank. Hayes was charged with more with creation and playmaking while frank before he was drafted was more of that glue type player. Frank value also comes on the defensive end being able to guard multiple positions and be switchable nearly 1-5.
Frank is very important to this team but Hayes is much more advanced at his age then Frank has ever been in terms of scoring and passing.
HEZI wrote:mpharris36 wrote:HEZI wrote:
Year 2 Frank with a much tighter and cleaner ball handling than Hayes. Much quicker burst and first step than Hayes. Didn't shoot much but he played a lot with Randle and Morris and if Hayes did too he won't be getting shots either. Year 3 Frank will be even better. It's a no contest
Trust me I watched that video 10 times already. It gives me all types of tingles.
But Hayes is simply more advanced offensively than frank in terms of every category outside of spot up shooting.
Hayes has a floater, he has a step back jumper, he gets into the paint more consistently then Frank. Hayes was charged with more with creation and playmaking while frank before he was drafted was more of that glue type player. Frank value also comes on the defensive end being able to guard multiple positions and be switchable nearly 1-5.
Frank is very important to this team but Hayes is much more advanced at his age then Frank has ever been in terms of scoring and passing.
Hayes is not doing anything like that in the NBA especially on last years squad. Hayes wouldn't even crack the rotation. His weak ball handles and turnovers not to mention his high foul rate would keep him on the bench. His inefficient step back long 2s aren't better than Frank's pull up mid range 2s. Hayes is not better offensively than Frank.
HEZI wrote:mpharris36 wrote:HEZI wrote:
Year 2 Frank with a much tighter and cleaner ball handling than Hayes. Much quicker burst and first step than Hayes. Didn't shoot much but he played a lot with Randle and Morris and if Hayes did too he won't be getting shots either. Year 3 Frank will be even better. It's a no contest
Trust me I watched that video 10 times already. It gives me all types of tingles.
But Hayes is simply more advanced offensively than frank in terms of every category outside of spot up shooting.
Hayes has a floater, he has a step back jumper, he gets into the paint more consistently then Frank. Hayes was charged with more with creation and playmaking while frank before he was drafted was more of that glue type player. Frank value also comes on the defensive end being able to guard multiple positions and be switchable nearly 1-5.
Frank is very important to this team but Hayes is much more advanced at his age then Frank has ever been in terms of scoring and passing.
Hayes is not doing anything like that in the NBA especially on last years squad. Hayes wouldn't even crack the rotation. His weak ball handles and turnovers not to mention his high foul rate would keep him on the bench. His inefficient step back long 2s aren't better than Frank's pull up mid range 2s. Hayes is not better offensively than Frank.
Deeeez Knicks wrote:HEZI wrote:mpharris36 wrote:
Trust me I watched that video 10 times already. It gives me all types of tingles.
But Hayes is simply more advanced offensively than frank in terms of every category outside of spot up shooting.
Hayes has a floater, he has a step back jumper, he gets into the paint more consistently then Frank. Hayes was charged with more with creation and playmaking while frank before he was drafted was more of that glue type player. Frank value also comes on the defensive end being able to guard multiple positions and be switchable nearly 1-5.
Frank is very important to this team but Hayes is much more advanced at his age then Frank has ever been in terms of scoring and passing.
Hayes is not doing anything like that in the NBA especially on last years squad. Hayes wouldn't even crack the rotation. His weak ball handles and turnovers not to mention his high foul rate would keep him on the bench. His inefficient step back long 2s aren't better than Frank's pull up mid range 2s. Hayes is not better offensively than Frank.
Hayes was much more efficient then Cole and had a much better Assist to TO ratio going against Pros while also younger.
