Around the NBA - the sharp end of the playoffs - Randle snubbed for All NBA

[3toheadmelo]

enough about role players, lets give the young stars their credit!

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[HEZI]

I said 3&D "+" as a an acknowledgment that Wiggins brings a little bit more to the table than 3s and defense (or 3s and drives).

But he's a role player for Golden State, who mostly eats off of Curry and Draymond's elite playmaking, and who benefits from elite, unprecedented, historical floor spacing across the line-up.

And with all that said, he does have better natural tools to fill that role than RJ does. He has quicker feet and better athleticism on defense, and even though he doesn't have good touch (like RJ), he is more athletic as a finisher.

Those guys are thriving off his elite finishing ability and shooting. Wiggins is one of their best shooters who helps open up the space and he’s one of the best slashers also. His ability to play off ball and on ball is what allows the Warriors to play how they play. I always said you can’t just plug in anybody there, Kelly Oubre couldn’t succeed there because he didn’t have the IQ to play their style. A guy like Julius Randle could never play in their system because he’s a black hole who can’t play off ball. A guy like Wiggins is valuable to them more than other teams because not everybody can fit their style and he’s proven he can.

Yes he's performed well in that role. But he's replaceable in that role.

Wiggins probably gets the easiest shots on that line-up, outside of the occasional off-the-dribble middy. Credit to him, he's capitalizing on those opportunities but I don't think that makes him one of their best shooters per se. Curry, Klay, Poole are clearly better shooters than him.

He fits pretty nicely as a 4th/5th best player on that team. He benefits from Curry, Klay, Poole and Draymond more than they do from him.

You mean he takes the least difficult shots? Yup he rarely ever takes a bad shot. Klay and Poole are pretty much interchangeable at this point, either one could come off the bench. They have nobody to replace Wiggins with. Kind of like Draymond they don’t have anybody who does what he does and same for Wiggins.

[HEZI]

I am not even sure anymore

There’s only 4 teams left so only a certain amount of players to talk about. I don’t even know why Wiggins gets you guys so fired up.

Because we're all talking about someone else by proxy. It's pretty obvious.

True. Well, either Wiggins, Jaylen Brown, Jimmy Butler or Frank/Bullock will win a ring. We can’t lose!

It won’t be Bullock or Frank that’s for sure. That series is a wrap

If the Mavs had a Wiggins, Jaylen Brown, Butler or RJ Barrett they would have a better chance

[Chanel Bomber]

Those guys are thriving off his elite finishing ability and shooting. Wiggins is one of their best shooters who helps open up the space and he’s one of the best slashers also. His ability to play off ball and on ball is what allows the Warriors to play how they play. I always said you can’t just plug in anybody there, Kelly Oubre couldn’t succeed there because he didn’t have the IQ to play their style. A guy like Julius Randle could never play in their system because he’s a black hole who can’t play off ball. A guy like Wiggins is valuable to them more than other teams because not everybody can fit their style and he’s proven he can.

Yes he's performed well in that role. But he's replaceable in that role.

Wiggins probably gets the easiest shots on that line-up, outside of the occasional off-the-dribble middy. Credit to him, he's capitalizing on those opportunities but I don't think that makes him one of their best shooters per se. Curry, Klay, Poole are clearly better shooters than him.

He fits pretty nicely as a 4th/5th best player on that team. He benefits from Curry, Klay, Poole and Draymond more than they do from him.

You mean he takes the least difficult shots? Yup he rarely ever takes a bad shot. Klay and Poole are pretty much interchangeable at this point, either one could come off the bench. They have nobody to replace Wiggins with. Kind of like Draymond they don’t have anybody who does what he does and same for Wiggins.

As far as their own roster is concerned, that's probably true. But if they had to choose one of Poole or Wiggins, I would assume they would keep Poole, even if his skill set overlaps Steph and Klay's to some extent.

I just value Poole more than Wiggins, and I think you can more easily find a replacement for Wiggins than Poole.

Wiggins takes a lot of easy shots because he benefits from the gravity of the players around him, particularly Steph. Again, he deserves credit for making them at a respectable if unimpressive rate, but I don't think that makes him a significant difference-maker. He's not a shot creator or a playmaker - he's a mildly (in)efficient scorer off of easy shots who plays solid defense. I'm not overly impressed by that. He's a solid role player.

[Chanel Bomber]

Because we're all talking about someone else by proxy. It's pretty obvious.

True. Well, either Wiggins, Jaylen Brown, Jimmy Butler or Frank/Bullock will win a ring. We can’t lose!

It won’t be Bullock or Frank that’s for sure. That series is a wrap

If the Mavs had a Wiggins, Jaylen Brown, Butler or RJ Barrett they would have a better chance

Wiggins is not on the same level as Brown or Butler. RJ is not on the same planet as those guys. He would make the Mavs worse. In fact, they likely wouldn't be the WCF if they had him logging significant minutes.

Bullock does not offer a lot of offensive versatility but he's a reliable and versatile defender and he has been an efficient scorer and floor spacer in the playoffs.

Frank is Frank - a fringe NBA player with no offensive skill - but he did bring one skill that was reliably helpful in the Phoenix series (his perimeter defense).

The Mavs have already overachieved.

[Chanel Bomber]

enough about role players, lets give the young stars their credit!

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I still don't know what to make of Brown but he can be impressive and Tatum has absolutely reached a new level this season, especially as a passer and as a defender. He's never been an efficiency monster so my point of criticism was that he wouldn't impact the game when he shot wasn't falling. But now he's a reliable defender, he has more gravity as a scorer and he's making his teammates better.

Tatum is cool to watch. He's so smooth. I remember watching a game back when he was playing for Duke and he exuded class on the court. That game was played at MSG if I remember correctly.

[thebuzzardman]

Wiggins, Butler, Lavine before that. Do successes of ex-Minnesota players show Thibs is highly overrated as a coach? Just asking

Shows how good he is at development.

Wasn't Butler good before Minnesota? The f*ckup there was Thibs brought him in at cost of assets only to lose him?

He coached Butler in Chicago. Gave him 8.5 mpg in his rookie year. Averaged 17 mpg until game 39. What happened in game 39? Luol Deng got injured.

Thibs is really bad with handling young players.

Thibs is awesome with young players. Look how good IQ, Obi, Sims and Grimes have been doing.

[3toheadmelo]

enough about role players, lets give the young stars their credit!

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Read on Twitter

I still don't know what to make of Brown but he can be impressive and Tatum has absolutely reached a new level this season, especially as a passer and as a defender. He's never been an efficiency monster so my point of criticism was that he wouldn't impact the game when he shot wasn't falling. But now he's a reliable defender, he has more gravity as a scorer and he's making his teammates better.

Tatum is cool to watch. He's so smooth. I remember watching a game back when he was playing for Duke and he exuded class on the court. That game was played at MSG if I remember correctly.

Yeah the growth in his game has been fun to watch. Last night he put up a near triple double (22/12/9) while struggling with his shot. Him showing the ability to dominate in other areas besides scoring has been one of the biggest reasons why Boston has been a contender.

I remember that game. I kept posting the highlights here saying that could be him as a Knick. A lot of people here didn't want him though

Watch on YouTube

[HEZI]

Yes he's performed well in that role. But he's replaceable in that role.

Wiggins probably gets the easiest shots on that line-up, outside of the occasional off-the-dribble middy. Credit to him, he's capitalizing on those opportunities but I don't think that makes him one of their best shooters per se. Curry, Klay, Poole are clearly better shooters than him.

He fits pretty nicely as a 4th/5th best player on that team. He benefits from Curry, Klay, Poole and Draymond more than they do from him.

You mean he takes the least difficult shots? Yup he rarely ever takes a bad shot. Klay and Poole are pretty much interchangeable at this point, either one could come off the bench. They have nobody to replace Wiggins with. Kind of like Draymond they don’t have anybody who does what he does and same for Wiggins.

As far as their own roster is concerned, that's probably true. But if they had to choose one of Poole or Wiggins, I would assume they would keep Poole, even if his skill set overlaps Steph and Klay's to some extent.

I just value Poole more than Wiggins, and I think you can more easily find a replacement for Wiggins than Poole.

Wiggins takes a lot of easy shots because he benefits from the gravity of the players around him, particularly Steph. Again, he deserves credit for making them at a respectable if unimpressive rate, but I don't think that makes him a significant difference-maker. He's not a shot creator or a playmaker - he's a mildly (in)efficient scorer off of easy shots who plays solid defense. I'm not overly impressed by that. He's a solid role player.

Poole is a solid offensive spark plug but awful defender. They can replace him and even reduce his role with Klay back in the fold like how they did but Wiggins is key for their starting lineup as he gets the assignment defensively of the opponents best player. Klay is nowhere the defender he once was so a lineup of Curry, Poole and Klay would get wrecked defensively.

If Wiggins is inefficient then I don’t know what that makes the rest of their guys who are even less efficient than him You can easily tell Wiggins to shoot more and be less efficient and he can do it like how he did in Minnesota but that doesn’t mean the team is contending. There are a lot of fabricated stars in the league who are more suited as complimentary pieces rather than the high usage guys they are on their bad teams. You think a guy like Derozan would be getting all the shots in GS that he gets in Chicago? Of course not and his lack of shooting would actually hurt the Warriors more than help them.

[HEZI]

True. Well, either Wiggins, Jaylen Brown, Jimmy Butler or Frank/Bullock will win a ring. We can’t lose!

It won’t be Bullock or Frank that’s for sure. That series is a wrap

If the Mavs had a Wiggins, Jaylen Brown, Butler or RJ Barrett they would have a better chance

Wiggins is not on the same level as Brown or Butler. RJ is not on the same planet as those guys. He would make the Mavs worse. In fact, they likely wouldn't be the WCF if they had him logging significant minutes.

Bullock does not offer a lot of offensive versatility but he's a reliable and versatile defender and he has been an efficient scorer and floor spacer in the playoffs.

Frank is Frank - a fringe NBA player with no offensive skill - but he did bring one skill that was reliably helpful in the Phoenix series (his perimeter defense).

The Mavs have already overachieved.

Mavs only other ball handler is Jalen Brunson. RJ would thrive as a secondary ball handler next to Luka

[Chanel Bomber]

You mean he takes the least difficult shots? Yup he rarely ever takes a bad shot. Klay and Poole are pretty much interchangeable at this point, either one could come off the bench. They have nobody to replace Wiggins with. Kind of like Draymond they don’t have anybody who does what he does and same for Wiggins.

As far as their own roster is concerned, that's probably true. But if they had to choose one of Poole or Wiggins, I would assume they would keep Poole, even if his skill set overlaps Steph and Klay's to some extent.

I just value Poole more than Wiggins, and I think you can more easily find a replacement for Wiggins than Poole.

Wiggins takes a lot of easy shots because he benefits from the gravity of the players around him, particularly Steph. Again, he deserves credit for making them at a respectable if unimpressive rate, but I don't think that makes him a significant difference-maker. He's not a shot creator or a playmaker - he's a mildly (in)efficient scorer off of easy shots who plays solid defense. I'm not overly impressed by that. He's a solid role player.

Poole is a solid offensive spark plug but awful defender. They can replace him and even reduce his role with Klay back in the fold like how they did but Wiggins is key for their starting lineup as he gets the assignment defensively of the opponents best player. Klay is nowhere the defender he once was so a lineup of Curry, Poole and Klay would get wrecked defensively.

If Wiggins is inefficient then I don’t know what that makes the rest of their guys who are even less efficient than him You can easily tell Wiggins to shoot more and be less efficient and he can do it like how he did in Minnesota but that doesn’t mean the team is contending. There are a lot of fabricated stars in the league who are more suited as complimentary pieces rather than the high usage guys they are on their bad teams. You think a guy like Derozan would be getting all the shots in GS that he gets in Chicago? Of course not and his lack of shooting would actually hurt the Warriors more than help them.

Well I agree completely with the second paragraph. That's why I vew Wiggins as nothing more than a solid role player. I agree there are a lot of fake stars in the NBA, who put up big numbers because someone has to take shots and generate some offense, and they are simply not qualified to do it efficiently. These players are better off as bench players, or role players (if their 3-point shot is falling), on good teams. That's the destiny for players like Wiggins, Randle and RJ. The difference is Wiggins has always had better tools to become a good defender than our two fake stars.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Because we're all talking about someone else by proxy. It's pretty obvious.

True. Well, either Wiggins, Jaylen Brown, Jimmy Butler or Frank/Bullock will win a ring. We can’t lose!

It won’t be Bullock or Frank that’s for sure. That series is a wrap

If the Mavs had a Wiggins, Jaylen Brown, Butler or RJ Barrett they would have a better chance

Yup, Mavs are missing that type of player and it makes a big difference. Bucks def missed Middleton. Wings that can defend/switch, do a little bit of everything and score are valuable. Of course superstars are most important and you need them too. After that? Give me a versatile wing or a pg. This board is bugging with hate just try to take another shot at RJ.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

It won’t be Bullock or Frank that’s for sure. That series is a wrap

If the Mavs had a Wiggins, Jaylen Brown, Butler or RJ Barrett they would have a better chance

Wiggins is not on the same level as Brown or Butler. RJ is not on the same planet as those guys. He would make the Mavs worse. In fact, they likely wouldn't be the WCF if they had him logging significant minutes.

Bullock does not offer a lot of offensive versatility but he's a reliable and versatile defender and he has been an efficient scorer and floor spacer in the playoffs.

Frank is Frank - a fringe NBA player with no offensive skill - but he did bring one skill that was reliably helpful in the Phoenix series (his perimeter defense).

The Mavs have already overachieved.

Mavs only other ball handler is Jalen Brunson. RJ would thrive as a secondary ball handler next to Luka

Chanel jumped the shark a long time ago, somehow RJ makes them worse, a team relying on Spencer Dinwiddie for shot creation, a guy who was averaging 13ppg, on 38% and 31% from 3 with the Wiz, but looks like a different man playing with spacing the Mavs have.

Yet, we're to believe RJ, playing with more spacing around him than at any point in his career, would make them worse

[Chanel Bomber]

It won’t be Bullock or Frank that’s for sure. That series is a wrap

If the Mavs had a Wiggins, Jaylen Brown, Butler or RJ Barrett they would have a better chance

Wiggins is not on the same level as Brown or Butler. RJ is not on the same planet as those guys. He would make the Mavs worse. In fact, they likely wouldn't be the WCF if they had him logging significant minutes.

Bullock does not offer a lot of offensive versatility but he's a reliable and versatile defender and he has been an efficient scorer and floor spacer in the playoffs.

Frank is Frank - a fringe NBA player with no offensive skill - but he did bring one skill that was reliably helpful in the Phoenix series (his perimeter defense).

The Mavs have already overachieved.

Mavs only other ball handler is Jalen Brunson. RJ would thrive as a secondary ball handler next to Luka

They also have Dinwiddie. They have two solid secondary ball-handlers already.

Why would RJ thrive as a secondary ball-handler? It's not like Luka provides particularly great spacing as an off-ball player that would magically make RJ significantly better as a secondary.

RJ doesn't pass the ball, can't finish at the rim, has no in-between game, and regressed from 3, even becoming the single worst volume 3-point shooter from the corners in the entire NBA.

Luka or the Mavs don't need a player like that.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Wiggins is not on the same level as Brown or Butler. RJ is not on the same planet as those guys. He would make the Mavs worse. In fact, they likely wouldn't be the WCF if they had him logging significant minutes.

Bullock does not offer a lot of offensive versatility but he's a reliable and versatile defender and he has been an efficient scorer and floor spacer in the playoffs.

Frank is Frank - a fringe NBA player with no offensive skill - but he did bring one skill that was reliably helpful in the Phoenix series (his perimeter defense).

The Mavs have already overachieved.

Mavs only other ball handler is Jalen Brunson. RJ would thrive as a secondary ball handler next to Luka

They also have Dinwiddie. They have two solid secondary ball-handlers already.

Why would RJ thrive as a secondary ball-handler? It's not like Luka provides particularly great spacing as an off-ball player that would magically make RJ significantly better as a secondary.

RJ doesn't pass the ball, can't finish at the rim, has no in-between game, and regressed from 3, even becoming the single worst volume 3-point shooter from the corners in the entire NBA.

Luka or the Mavs don't need a player like that.

Dinwiddie had a .501% TS before joining the Mavs.

You would have been saying he wouldn't help them prior to them trading for him.

[Deeeez Knicks]

It won’t be Bullock or Frank that’s for sure. That series is a wrap

If the Mavs had a Wiggins, Jaylen Brown, Butler or RJ Barrett they would have a better chance

Wiggins is not on the same level as Brown or Butler. RJ is not on the same planet as those guys. He would make the Mavs worse. In fact, they likely wouldn't be the WCF if they had him logging significant minutes.

Bullock does not offer a lot of offensive versatility but he's a reliable and versatile defender and he has been an efficient scorer and floor spacer in the playoffs.

Frank is Frank - a fringe NBA player with no offensive skill - but he did bring one skill that was reliably helpful in the Phoenix series (his perimeter defense).

The Mavs have already overachieved.

Mavs only other ball handler is Jalen Brunson. RJ would thrive as a secondary ball handler next to Luka

RJ is the type of player they could use and are missing.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Mavs only other ball handler is Jalen Brunson. RJ would thrive as a secondary ball handler next to Luka

They also have Dinwiddie. They have two solid secondary ball-handlers already.

Why would RJ thrive as a secondary ball-handler? It's not like Luka provides particularly great spacing as an off-ball player that would magically make RJ significantly better as a secondary.

RJ doesn't pass the ball, can't finish at the rim, has no in-between game, and regressed from 3, even becoming the single worst volume 3-point shooter from the corners in the entire NBA.

Luka or the Mavs don't need a player like that.

Dinwiddie had a .501% TS before joining the Mavs.

You would have been saying he wouldn't help them prior to them trading for him.

That's why it's not exactly the end all, be all stat and should be taken in context. It can vary so much depending on situation, role. Team, system, etc. It flutcuates

[3toheadmelo]

Yeah RJ would struggle big time next to Luka. Def a bit of a downgrade.

[Chanel Bomber]

Wiggins is not on the same level as Brown or Butler. RJ is not on the same planet as those guys. He would make the Mavs worse. In fact, they likely wouldn't be the WCF if they had him logging significant minutes.

Bullock does not offer a lot of offensive versatility but he's a reliable and versatile defender and he has been an efficient scorer and floor spacer in the playoffs.

Frank is Frank - a fringe NBA player with no offensive skill - but he did bring one skill that was reliably helpful in the Phoenix series (his perimeter defense).

The Mavs have already overachieved.

Mavs only other ball handler is Jalen Brunson. RJ would thrive as a secondary ball handler next to Luka

Chanel jumped the shark a long time ago, somehow RJ makes them worse, a team relying on Spencer Dinwiddie for shot creation, a guy who was averaging 13ppg, on 38% and 31% from 3 with the Wiz, but looks like a different man playing with spacing the Mavs have.

Yet, we're to believe RJ, playing with more spacing around him than at any point in his career, would make them worse

Well I think it's obvious that RJ would make them worse at this stage of his career.

He might become an solid role player later in his career when he will have had to accept the fact that he can't be a star on a good team, and when a different organization will have given him a lesser role.

Dinwiddie had a track record as a playmaker and shot creator in Brooklyn. He has a better handle than RJ, and he's a better passer than RJ. Which isn't to say that RJ will not surpass him - he probably will at some point in his career, but that's not saying much.

You're right that Dinwiddie's become more effective playing next to Luka. The fact that he's subpar as a secondary or tertiary is also the reason why the Mavs are likely not going to the Finals however.

But I'm fine with people projecting RJ as a Dinwiddie, Wiggins-level player down the line. Those are more reasonable expectations than the Butler, Middleton, Pierce comps that have been made.

[Chanel Bomber]

They also have Dinwiddie. They have two solid secondary ball-handlers already.

Why would RJ thrive as a secondary ball-handler? It's not like Luka provides particularly great spacing as an off-ball player that would magically make RJ significantly better as a secondary.

RJ doesn't pass the ball, can't finish at the rim, has no in-between game, and regressed from 3, even becoming the single worst volume 3-point shooter from the corners in the entire NBA.

Luka or the Mavs don't need a player like that.

Dinwiddie had a .501% TS before joining the Mavs.

You would have been saying he wouldn't help them prior to them trading for him.

That's why it's not exactly the end all, be all stat and should be taken in context. It can vary so much depending on situation, role. Team, system, etc. It flutcuates

Who ever said it was an end-all be-all stat?

TS measures scoring efficiency.

It obviously fluctuates over time and depending on the role.