Knicks Free Agency Frenzy Part Deux

[Juco24]

man do I hope we don't trade RJ.

That would definitely be stupid

[Chanel Bomber]

Its almost as if you havent learned that this is a player league and that players can force their ways out of any situation. Leverage means jack ****

If only I could think of a good example of such a situation happening to us. Hmmm

Y’all Knick Phil but he had the right idea.

right idea, wrong execution. his trade was ****

It was better than signing KP to a max contract, that's for sure. It was an albatross.

[Oscirus]

Y’all killed Phil for it at the time but he had the right idea.

right idea, wrong execution. his trade was ****

But Phil didn't trade him. He got fired for - allegedly - wanting to trade him. Everyone hated Phil for even thinking about it but when Perry traded him everyone was happy. C'mon man, you know Wingo is right.

[My apology for the typo]

His proposed trade wouldve likely netted us josh jackson and possibly another lottery pick. Thats why I say his execution was ****. Trade him, sure? But if you trade him, you better not miss

[thebuzzardman]

So, what's the story? What is everyone still waiting or hoping for?

Obviously D. Mitchell is the big dream for some. Others think the height combination with Brunson is bad. A larger group know it will take a f*ck ton of assets and aren't interested. A not small group doesn't care and wants Mitchell anyway.

The outcome of the Walker/Burks/Noel trade(s). I get there are various TPE implications here, where maybe the Knicks help Mavs get one for some small asset. What would that be? A 2nd rounder? An end of the bench guy - but why? Lifting protection on the pick?
Is there an MLE use in play here, depending on how the trade is constructed and timing of signings?
Is the MLE being available dependent on how the trade is constructed?
Is the MLE available to the Knicks right now with the team going over the cap with Mitch?

If the MLE is available, how would you use it?
Team has pretty good depth. Thibs isn't to be trusted with vets, but would it be wise (minus Thibs) to use it to have another decent player under contract for 2 years, where there is more asset depth to deal out of the top of the deck?

Are the Knicks trying to get the Mavs to lift protection on the 2023 pick so they can swing it to the Jazz in a Mitchell trade?


I forgot about the usual trade Julius fantasies, but I just don't see him being moved until he proves he can behave for a year. Also, showing he can function off the ball next to a PG and still be effective probably raises his value. Next offseason he might get moved if those things happen.

[thebuzzardman]

The Knicks efficiency will probably be better this season with a real PG that can break down defenses and dish the ball to people in rhythm and in their spots.

Randle saps efficiency with his dribble heavy ball dominant style and RJ is still too young to consistently be efficient so Brunson will help the team as a whole be more efficient.

Burks is a great scorer who can pass but he's not the type of primary ball handler that has pure PG instincts so there were plenty of missed open shots and forced contested shots with him as PG.

That lowers overall shooting percentages and efficiency.

A few questions that will or will not get answered:

How often will Randle be off the ball? He shouldn't be on the ball very much with Brunson, but he's still going to. How much?
IF Randle is off the ball the majority of the time (hopefully), how does he look in that role? Still effective? Attractive to other teams?
Will Thibs ensure Randle is off the ball
To get Randle his "run the offense" fix, how does he do that? Stagger subs so Randle is with the 2nd unit more and gets on the ball more then?
Fournier - does he get the Burks "pre-PG Burks" role as super sub?
How does Thibs mitigate defensive issues of Brunson/Fournier or Brunson/D Mitchell


Obviously there are bigger questions around minutes/rotation after any additional moves do or don't happen, but figured those are things to look for

[thebuzzardman]

Every max cats signed 5yr extensions.
No one will leave extra 40~50M to play for Knicks.
This regime should throw their FA plan out the window.
Their only hope is to trade 8 1st rd picks for disgruntled lower tier star such as DMitch or over pay borderline hoping to become star players.

Never gonna happen but Brooklyn fell apart, It is time to reset and bring in real front office and start building through the draft. NBA should force Dolan to sell the team.

Max cats like AD, Harden (2x), Westbrook (About to be 2X), John Wall, Gobert and soon to be Kyrie and Durant, have been moved.

I was trying to get at this in another post
I might have some details wrong here and someone with a better knowledge of the history of the league and CBA can chime in

I get the NBA tried to compromise with the players, particularly the stars, in that they titled the compensation so late prime stars can get BIG paydays, like back in the day when MJ got a lot of money as compared to peers.
Prior couple of CBA's (I THINK) had the young stars, early prime and late/out of prime stars more closely grouped
Obviously we know that for a while young players are forced into set contracts, to save the NBA owners from themselves and sh*te Kevin Garnett Rookie contracts.
We know the NBA has always encouraged stars to "stay home", probably because they know their league kind of sucks competition wise, so each team needs a "star" to put asses in seats. I frankly think this is outdated thinking, but whatever.
So, young rising stars have to eat at least one year, and possibly two or three, where they are underpaid.
Then, in order to grab as much money as possible, they take the largest deal with the most years and resign. Every time. So far.
And...then, if not in the 2nd contract, but certainly the 3rd, LeBron and Co have set the paradigm where the stars want their money AND they want their destination, and it's NOT where they signed the contract.

I think right now, unless the next CBA changes the landscape, and boy, do I wish it would, we know have a league where teams are always going to operate near or over the cap.

No, this isn't to excuse what the Knicks are doing. The Knicks kind of suck at execution - always have - but I think they have the theory right.

The current NBA isn't about getting way under the cap. It's about being near or over the cap so a team has the matching $ of GOOD players to put into trades for HUGE $ stars.

What is the same about the NBA of yore? Still need to properly assess talent and get actual useful players.
Need to pay useful players their actual worth, not put them in contract lengths other teams don't like
Getting draft picks for capital still matters.
I'd say the teams that harvest draft picks are still the bottom dwellers, and it still pays to do this other strategy as well.

I think the very lower rung teams still operate under the cap, trading guys away and collect picks. It's the way to rebuild. But the rest of the teams, instead of trying to be under the cap, acknowledge that for now they have to push at or over it.

And that teams go from rebuilding to over the cap pretty quick, too.

Maybe I'm only describing a change to the large middle of the league. The good teams are really good, generally capped out forever, and players want to join them. The very bottom hunts high picks in the draft and extra draft picks.
Just pointing out that the other 20 teams, I don't think managing cap space to be under is a thing anymore.
It's more about being over, but in the right way.

[Jalen Bluntson]

So, what's the story? What is everyone still waiting or hoping for?

Obviously D. Mitchell is the big dream for some. Others think the height combination with Brunson is bad. A larger group know it will take a f*ck ton of assets and aren't interested. A not small group doesn't care and wants Mitchell anyway.

The outcome of the Walker/Burks/Noel trade(s). I get there are various TPE implications here, where maybe the Knicks help Mavs get one for some small asset. What would that be? A 2nd rounder? An end of the bench guy - but why? Lifting protection on the pick?
Is there an MLE use in play here, depending on how the trade is constructed and timing of signings?
Is the MLE being available dependent on how the trade is constructed?
Is the MLE available to the Knicks right now with the team going over the cap with Mitch?

If the MLE is available, how would you use it?
Team has pretty good depth. Thibs isn't to be trusted with vets, but would it be wise (minus Thibs) to use it to have another decent player under contract for 2 years, where there is more asset depth to deal out of the top of the deck?

Are the Knicks trying to get the Mavs to lift protection on the 2023 pick so they can swing it to the Jazz in a Mitchell trade?


I forgot about the usual trade Julius fantasies, but I just don't see him being moved until he proves he can behave for a year. Also, showing he can function off the ball next to a PG and still be effective probably raises his value. Next offseason he might get moved if those things happen.

I am hoping for at least a Fournier trade.

I don't know how we get any other big name talent at the moment but, they are all in on trading assets as the path to contention. I'm beginning to buy into that path seeing how they refuse to rebuild through the draft for whatever reason. No one ever comes in FA. This is the only other path. Maybe one of the players we already have becomes a star? Either way.. they are not using cap or draft to get stars. They are going the trade route. Might take another year to shake one loose but, it seems every year a star or two forces a trade these days.

In order to be in the running for those trades you need the following:

1)Decent players with contracts to help match salaries. Randle/Evan check that box.
2)Decent young players with potential. We have several in IQ/RJ/Obi/Mitch/Grimes/Cam. Rokas rights fall in here? Check.
3) a ton of picks. We have 22 in the next several drafts. Check.
4) Star asks to be traded to Knicks...or asks for a trade and doesn't have a choice where they go. This is the missing piece they are betting on.

I am not a fan of the apparent direction they are taking but, it sorta makes sense. The big names rarely make it to FA these days. Most get their deals and force their way out. So...it makes sense to angle for these trades if you refuse to tank and can't land FA no matter how much money you have.

I like the two players we brought in so far too. Brunson can move the needle if he levels up in a lead role and skirts/reaches all star level play at the point. It should help the kids develop too.

Hartenstein is a solid role player backup getting paid accordingly. He offers a change of pace to Mitchell at the 5. More offense in his bag and can hit FTs while playing some defense. He will most likely see some time closing games. This addressed the haters who complain that Mitch can't close games because of his FT shooting. Problem solved.

I'm not expecting much but, I'm seeing the direction a little more clearly than I have since they started. I mean...I think I do. As always it comes down to the players they assemble. Let's hope they find the right mix.

[KnixinSix]

Ainge is a shark.....Tony Jones jazz beat writer says that Utah would be intrigued by an offer of 4 picks, 3 swaps and a young player for Donovan Mitchell.

He wants a Harden package lol. D Mitch is really really good but he isn't like top 5-10 NBA player good.

Lets see how Rose plays the negotiations.

[duetta]

Ainge is a shark.....Tony Jones jazz beat writer says that Utah would be intrigued by an offer of 4 picks, 3 swaps and a young player for Donovan Mitchell.

He wants a Harden package lol. D Mitch is really really good but he isn't like top 5-10 NBA player good.

Lets see how Rose plays the negotiations.

No interest whatsoever in trading for Mitchell at half that price.

[Juco24]

Ainge is a shark.....Tony Jones jazz beat writer says that Utah would be intrigued by an offer of 4 picks, 3 swaps and a young player for Donovan Mitchell.

He wants a Harden package lol. D Mitch is really really good but he isn't like top 5-10 NBA player good.

Lets see how Rose plays the negotiations.

Yeah I agree. 2 1st round Picks + 2 swaps + Fournier or Randle (can have em both really) + Cam won't get it done but that's all I'd be willing to do.

[thebuzzardman]

So, what's the story? What is everyone still waiting or hoping for?

Obviously D. Mitchell is the big dream for some. Others think the height combination with Brunson is bad. A larger group know it will take a f*ck ton of assets and aren't interested. A not small group doesn't care and wants Mitchell anyway.

The outcome of the Walker/Burks/Noel trade(s). I get there are various TPE implications here, where maybe the Knicks help Mavs get one for some small asset. What would that be? A 2nd rounder? An end of the bench guy - but why? Lifting protection on the pick?
Is there an MLE use in play here, depending on how the trade is constructed and timing of signings?
Is the MLE being available dependent on how the trade is constructed?
Is the MLE available to the Knicks right now with the team going over the cap with Mitch?

If the MLE is available, how would you use it?
Team has pretty good depth. Thibs isn't to be trusted with vets, but would it be wise (minus Thibs) to use it to have another decent player under contract for 2 years, where there is more asset depth to deal out of the top of the deck?

Are the Knicks trying to get the Mavs to lift protection on the 2023 pick so they can swing it to the Jazz in a Mitchell trade?


I forgot about the usual trade Julius fantasies, but I just don't see him being moved until he proves he can behave for a year. Also, showing he can function off the ball next to a PG and still be effective probably raises his value. Next offseason he might get moved if those things happen.

I am hoping for at least a Fournier trade.

I don't know how we get any other big name talent at the moment but, they are all in on trading assets as the path to contention. I'm beginning to buy into that path seeing how they refuse to rebuild through the draft for whatever reason. No one ever comes in FA. This is the only other path. Maybe one of the players we already have becomes a star? Either way.. they are not using cap or draft to get stars. They are going the trade route. Might take another year to shake one loose but, it seems every year a star or two forces a trade these days.

In order to be in the running for those trades you need the following:

1)Decent players with contracts to help match salaries. Randle/Evan check that box.
2)Decent young players with potential. We have several in IQ/RJ/Obi/Mitch/Grimes/Cam. Rokas rights fall in here? Check.
3) a ton of picks. We have 22 in the next several drafts. Check.
4) Star asks to be traded to Knicks...or asks for a trade and doesn't have a choice where they go. This is the missing piece they are betting on.

I am not a fan of the apparent direction they are taking but, it sorta makes sense. The big names rarely make it to FA these days. Most get their deals and force their way out. So...it makes sense to angle for these trades if you refuse to tank and can't land FA no matter how much money you have.

I like the two players we brought in so far too. Brunson can move the needle if he levels up in a lead role and skirts/reaches all star level play at the point. It should help the kids develop too.

Hartenstein is a solid role player backup getting paid accordingly. He offers a change of pace to Mitchell at the 5. More offense in his bag and can hit FTs while playing some defense. He will most likely see some time closing games. This addressed the haters who complain that Mitch can't close games because of his FT shooting. Problem solved.

I'm not expecting much but, I'm seeing the direction a little more clearly than I have since they started. I mean...I think I do. As always it comes down to the players they assemble. Let's hope they find the right mix.

Outright FA is down anyway.
Generally it's a trade. Players want their money, years, the guarantees, then they want WHERE they want to play.
It's different.
Do FA's still sign? Sure. But it's less of a thing than it used to be.

[knicksNOTslick]

If Knicks want mitchell I’m pretty sure this is gonna come down to Knicks ponying up 6-7 picks to keep some of there youth out of it.
I don’t think anyone comes close to what we can offer. It’s just will we. And I think ultimately rose will be to scared to pull the trigger. Albeit it may be best if he doesn’t

It really sucks and is horrible timing that Ainge is in charge of the Jazz. Because you know the Knicks won't get Mitchell for a discount. I wouldn't blame our FO if they don't pull the trigger. I would wait.

[KnixinSix]

Ainge is a shark.....Tony Jones jazz beat writer says that Utah would be intrigued by an offer of 4 picks, 3 swaps and a young player for Donovan Mitchell.

He wants a Harden package lol. D Mitch is really really good but he isn't like top 5-10 NBA player good.

Lets see how Rose plays the negotiations.

No interest whatsoever in trading for Mitchell at half that price.

He is worth 4FRPs provided that not all 4 are unprotected. Which young player though: McBride, Grimes, Rokas , IQ, Sims? My guess is Obi/RJ our top 2 shouldn't have to go in the deal.

[Madskillzz024]

Read on Twitter

?s=20&t=SSbI4OAtrZKe7rqAgeJRiA

They both do and they also both have an interest in driving the price up on each other.

I mean, I don't doubt Riley is looking ahead a few years for the Butler replacement, but getting to play that player WITH Butler for a few years. But isn't it pretty established Riley gets into discussions specifically to drive up prices on rivals?

Again, I get how Miami is a legit contender to get Mitchell:

Can send out at least 3 Caucasian players that don't suck - Herro\Robinson\Strus
It's the city of Miami (fun), state of Florida (no state tax)
Organization reputation of at least last 20 years if not longer
Team would be strong in the starting lineup if not a little bench thing post trade*
*Miami always finds bench guys

If Miami wants Mitchell, they will also have to move Bam in the process due to the max rookie extensions rule.
So Herro+ Bam would just be the starting point for Miami which is pretty steep without even factoring all the draft picks Utah would want still

[mpharris36]

If Knicks want mitchell I’m pretty sure this is gonna come down to Knicks ponying up 6-7 picks to keep some of there youth out of it.
I don’t think anyone comes close to what we can offer. It’s just will we. And I think ultimately rose will be to scared to pull the trigger. Albeit it may be best if he doesn’t

It really sucks and is horrible timing that Ainge is in charge of the Jazz. Because you know the Knicks won't get Mitchell for a discount. I wouldn't blame our FO if they don't pull the trigger. I would wait.

The only leverage against the jazz would be if Donovan Mitchell said he wants to be traded. It doesn't seem like that is happening so Ainge and jazz have all leverage in negotiations with someone like Knicks.

That's why they can come out say they most likely are keeping Mitchell unless someone blows them away.

Nets situation is different because KD asked out. The only teams can be like are you really going to keep a disgruntled KD all year if you don't get what you want.

[thebuzzardman]

Ainge is a shark.....Tony Jones jazz beat writer says that Utah would be intrigued by an offer of 4 picks, 3 swaps and a young player for Donovan Mitchell.

He wants a Harden package lol. D Mitch is really really good but he isn't like top 5-10 NBA player good.

Lets see how Rose plays the negotiations.

No interest whatsoever in trading for Mitchell at half that price.

He is worth 4FRPs provided that not all 4 are unprotected. Which young player though: McBride, Grimes, Rokas , IQ, Sims? My guess is Obi/RJ our top 2 shouldn't have to go in the deal.

I think it comes down to a "what Ainge wants"

The Gobert trade shows it was more about the picks. Don't give me "He got a young player, that guy drafted #22!". Guys drafted around 22 are IQ\Grimes level guys. Ainge didn't really give a sh*t about that guy, other than he represented a body, some youth to sell the fanbase on, and, in effect another pick, just one that was already made.

So. Knicks 2023 pick should be enticing because it probably falls between 8-20. Of course it's unprotected.
Mavs 2023 pick should be enticing because it's the 2023 draft.
Ainge now would have FIVE drafts in a supposedly deep draft and a couple of opportunities to win the lotto and get #1
Knicks 2023, Mavs 2023, Nets 2023, Wolves 2023, Jazz own 2023. I might have missed one, lol.
Then, it probably takes, in a and/or situation, all those future 1sts that convey in 24 or 25, and a Knicks unprotected?
Moving on to players, I'd agree Obi or RJ don't have to be in the deal unless the Knicks want them to be. I think an IQ or Grimes gets it done, with some combination of Fournier (requisite caucasian) and Rose or Cam. I'd rather Rose than Cam, for the youth, and generally I feel Ainge would like Rose so he can flip him at the deadline to a contender for moar picks.

Knicks 2023. Mavs 2023 (Maybe the Knicks do a TPE to mavs to get Mavs to lift protection), Knicks 2025 unprotected, 2/3 of those Piston/Wiz/Milwaukee 2024/5 picks. Fournier, Rose and Grimes. Unless you think the Knicks want to play Mitchell at backup PG, then it's IQ instead of Grimes.

Would really prefer to do that trade without 2025 pick included. 2023? Well, it sucks, but Mitchell becomes the draft pick.
Or, Knicks 2023, 2025, but not the Mavs 2023, even though that pick is in the 20s

[thebuzzardman]

If Knicks want mitchell I’m pretty sure this is gonna come down to Knicks ponying up 6-7 picks to keep some of there youth out of it.
I don’t think anyone comes close to what we can offer. It’s just will we. And I think ultimately rose will be to scared to pull the trigger. Albeit it may be best if he doesn’t

It really sucks and is horrible timing that Ainge is in charge of the Jazz. Because you know the Knicks won't get Mitchell for a discount. I wouldn't blame our FO if they don't pull the trigger. I would wait.

The only leverage against the jazz would be if Donovan Mitchell said he wants to be traded. It doesn't seem like that is happening so Ainge and jazz have all leverage in negotiations with someone like Knicks.

That's why they can come out say they most likely are keeping Mitchell unless someone blows them away.

Nets situation is different because KD asked out. The only teams can be like are you really going to keep a disgruntled KD all year if you don't get what you want.

How do we know Mitchell doesn't want to be moved? So far there's no public noise, but there might be private noise.

[mpharris36]

It really sucks and is horrible timing that Ainge is in charge of the Jazz. Because you know the Knicks won't get Mitchell for a discount. I wouldn't blame our FO if they don't pull the trigger. I would wait.

The only leverage against the jazz would be if Donovan Mitchell said he wants to be traded. It doesn't seem like that is happening so Ainge and jazz have all leverage in negotiations with someone like Knicks.

That's why they can come out say they most likely are keeping Mitchell unless someone blows them away.

Nets situation is different because KD asked out. The only teams can be like are you really going to keep a disgruntled KD all year if you don't get what you want.

How do we know Mitchell doesn't want to be moved? So far there's no public noise, but there might be private noise.

Potentially but usually public noise is really the leverage play. If it's private then Utah can operate with all the leverage.

[thebuzzardman]

The only leverage against the jazz would be if Donovan Mitchell said he wants to be traded. It doesn't seem like that is happening so Ainge and jazz have all leverage in negotiations with someone like Knicks.

That's why they can come out say they most likely are keeping Mitchell unless someone blows them away.

Nets situation is different because KD asked out. The only teams can be like are you really going to keep a disgruntled KD all year if you don't get what you want.

How do we know Mitchell doesn't want to be moved? So far there's no public noise, but there might be private noise.

Potentially but usually public noise is really the leverage play. If it's private then Utah can operate with all the leverage.

That's where you have WWW work the back channel and get Mitch to start making demands.

Ah, whatever. We know that guy is useless.

What has he brought to the table?
Brunson? That's Leon, his son and daughter, plus Jalen's dad. WWW probably just got on a few zoom calls with his shirt off.

Hartenstein? Yeah, ok. lolz.
Getting Mitch to accept 15 million per? Nah.
Trading 3 expiring guys and a 1st rounder and 4 2nds for cap space/3 future 1sts and a 2nd rounder? That was Aller with Perry schmoozing old Detroit buddies.

WWW? Nothing.

[thebuzzardman]

Let me add.

If Knicks don't land Mitchell or make another move, while it's something of an indictment of the FO in general, it's a BIG indictment of WWW.

WTF is the WWW rolodex worth if no one returns the calls or wants to come? What good is this guy for other than lightening Dolan's wallet, a noble pursuit to be sure, but as a fan I'd like to see him, you know, do something.