2019-2020 College/Draft thread (Part 3)

[malik959]

It would show that he could play under control. When he came back in the game he wasn't as aggressive on defense and did his best to stay in the game.

[malik959]

But with Mitch in the back all Cole needs to do is try to stay in front of his man, don't do to much. It always helps to know somebody has your back. Now tell me, who had his back in NC?

[moocow007]

Another thing that really bothers me is the dude apparently got a bone bruise in his foot and just left the team and the country without saying a word to anybody. His teammates didn't know he left, his coaches didn't know he left, they found out about it through the media. Obviously his camp instructed him to just pack and leave. Then soon after that he's a co-owner of the team?

There's just too much selfishness, branding, marketing and business priorities that comes with him and that family that I just don't like.

The great Bulls teams of the Jordan era as well as the Bad Boys Pistons had some of the biggest and most selfish **** and pricks in the history of the game. Ultimately if the guy can play in the NBA and help his team win I don't honestly care if he's an axe murderer, a bigot, cross dresser, whatever...that **** isn't what the Knicks need him for. So the question is, can LaMelo Ball help the Knicks team win and become what they have been trying to become for over 2 decades...at least better than anyone else in this draft. I mean that's the reality of it and the bottom line. We're not picking for the boy scouts here. IF (and who know if he is the most impactful player) Ball is the best guy then you take him. Most professional athletes are primadonnas. Him not risking things and thinking about his NBA career is not really different than most of the rest of these top guys. Why do you think Wiseman decided not to fight it? Cole Anthony didn't exactly rush back either. None of these guys do. Lebron James, if he wasn't allowed to jump straight form HS probably would have done the same thing.

Ok so you are basically ignoring how all of his red flags could actually contribute to the reasons why the Knicks won't become that and might in fact just continue with being a joke and a circus for clowns that let their personal ego's become bigger than the team. From the self centered personality to the glaring weaknesses in his game there are major red flags with him that I'm not looking to just sweep under the rug. He's not that good of a prospect to do so

What you are doing is called projecting. Do you honestly believe that most of these guys are saints? You do realize that the media helps create these 'personalities' that people buy into right? Not that good a prospect??? From the talent standpoint he's arguably the best prospect. Are you telling me that just about every single projection that Ball is in the top group of this draft talent wise is wrong and you're right? Based on what? What have you gotten right in the past that others have gotten wrong? You are missing the point that this is not a personality contest.

[moocow007]

But with Mitch in the back all Cole needs to do is try to stay in front of his man, don't do to much. It always helps to know somebody has your back. Now tell me, who had his back in NC?

So you are conceding that Cole Anthony can't defend college PG's and that because of Mitch Robinson, who averages only 23 mpg in part because he's still foul prone, will make up for it? Is his offense really that dominant to make up for what you are basically implying is terrible defense?

[Deeeez Knicks]

Haliburton vs Cole is a tough call for me. I go back and forth.

Haliburton looks like the better player now, and I like his game. But if Cole develops into the type of player he is capable of being he could be most of what we have been looking for in a modern lead guard.

It's just a guessing game for how much any of these guys will improve.

But yeah, Hayes looks like he is in a tier above for me, at least out of those PGs.

[jvsimonetti0514]

DSJ was on a team just as bad as Cole Anthony and yet had a much better season than him (PPG, APG, efficiency, steals per game, etc) and had BIG games against the top ranked teams. Im sorry but you're overrating Cole and that's why he's dropped to #13 in DX's new mock. Dude is not that good. Also DSJ was the better shooter in college. Coleslaw shot 34.8% from 3 and DSJ shot 36% from 3. Cole aint it and its looking like he's not going to be in our range which is a great thing for us.

Cole got injured and sat out half the year. Because of his play NC was actually ranked top ten, something DSJ never did. If he played the whole year and we also had a proper season this wouldn’t even be a conversation

Nah, Cole never even made his team better.

Read on Twitter

I'm not going to defend Cole's playmaking because it's not good but UNC was better when he played. They went 10-12(.454) with him and 4-7(.363) without him.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Haliburton vs Cole is a tough call for me. I go back and forth.

Haliburton looks like the better player now, and I like his game. But if Cole develops into the type of player he is capable of being he could be most of what we have been looking for in a modern lead guard.

It's just a guessing game for how much any of these guys will improve.

But yeah, Hayes looks like he is in a tier above for me, at least out of those PGs.

I just don't see Haliburton as someone who's going to be able to create shots at the next level. I don't think we should invest in another PG that needs to develop that skill with Frank already on the roster. He would make more sense if RJ could be that primary ball handler, which I'm not sure he is one of those. Haliburton gets compared to SGA a lot but I think he's more of a Derek Fisher type instead. Hayes is clearly a tier about these two and he's got to be the choice if he's on the board. If it comes down to either Cole or Haliburton, I'll definitely be in Camp Cole.

[HarthorneWingo]

Haliburton vs Cole is a tough call for me. I go back and forth.

Haliburton looks like the better player now, and I like his game. But if Cole develops into the type of player he is capable of being he could be most of what we have been looking for in a modern lead guard.

It's just a guessing game for how much any of these guys will improve.

But yeah, Hayes looks like he is in a tier above for me, at least out of those PGs.

I’m most concerned with Cole’s decision making and shooting, both of which are questionable to me.

What does Cole bring us that DSJ doesn’t already? And Dennis is much athletic than Cole.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Haliburton vs Cole is a tough call for me. I go back and forth.

Haliburton looks like the better player now, and I like his game. But if Cole develops into the type of player he is capable of being he could be most of what we have been looking for in a modern lead guard.

It's just a guessing game for how much any of these guys will improve.

But yeah, Hayes looks like he is in a tier above for me, at least out of those PGs.

I just don't see Haliburton as someone who's going to be able to create shots at the next level. I don't think we should invest in another PG that needs to develop that skill with Frank already on the roster. He would make more sense if RJ could be that primary ball handler, which I'm not sure he is one of those. Haliburton gets compared to SGA a lot but I think he's more of a Derek Fisher type instead. Hayes is clearly a tier about these two and he's got to be the choice if he's on the board. If it comes down to either Cole or Haliburton, I'll definitely be in Camp Cole.

Yea, that is definetly one of the knocks on Hali. He does not create a lot of separation...not really going to penetrate and finish in the lane much, nor not going to create his own shot. May never be a big scorer which could limit the upside.

But I think his strengths of being a really good shooter and passer, could compliment RJ. He could end up being closer to like a Brogdon/Lonzo Ball type player if all pans out. Someone like that would compliment RJ well and be great to have. I don't think I would let Frank impact the draft decision.

[8516knicks]

Don't think we need a poor shooting non-D point guard. Haven't we had some of those in the past?

[Deeeez Knicks]

Haliburton vs Cole is a tough call for me. I go back and forth.

Haliburton looks like the better player now, and I like his game. But if Cole develops into the type of player he is capable of being he could be most of what we have been looking for in a modern lead guard.

It's just a guessing game for how much any of these guys will improve.

But yeah, Hayes looks like he is in a tier above for me, at least out of those PGs.

I’m most concerned with Cole’s decision making and shooting, both of which are questionable to me.

What does Cole bring us that DSJ doesn’t already? And Dennis is much athletic than Cole.

It is definetly a major concern and risk. Cole looked real bad at times. The hope would be that he can put it together and get better in those aspects.

Cole doesn't have the vertical of DSJ, but he is pretty athletic. Plays hard, and maybe has a better feel for the game/attitude. I don't know. Not sure I would pick him either where the Knicks are projected but I do see some upside.

[3toheadmelo]

Cole got injured and sat out half the year. Because of his play NC was actually ranked top ten, something DSJ never did. If he played the whole year and we also had a proper season this wouldn’t even be a conversation

Nah, Cole never even made his team better.

Read on Twitter

I'm not going to defend Cole's playmaking because it's not good but UNC was better when he played. They went 10-12(.454) with him and 4-7(.363) without him.

Cole was only able to beat the worst teams in the country. They started the season playing horrible teams which is why there is more wins with Cole. When Cole went up against legit competition he was terrible and he did not help his team mates get better.

[robillionaire]

If we get 7-8, and assume hayes was gone (or let's just say if the knicks were too cowardly to take the gamble on hayes or didn't want to draft another french guard) I think I'd take Hampton over Cole and Haliburton as I think he's got more upside. I really wouldn't want to take either of Cole or Haliburton and would consider one of the other prospects if they are still on the board like avdija, okongwu, toppin as well.

[malik959]

But with Mitch in the back all Cole needs to do is try to stay in front of his man, don't do to much. It always helps to know somebody has your back. Now tell me, who had his back in NC?

So you are conceding that Cole Anthony can't defend college PG's and that because of Mitch Robinson, who averages only 23 mpg in part because he's still foul prone, will make up for it? Is his offense really that dominant to make up for what you are basically implying is terrible defense?

OK first off Cole is no way a bad defender and actually he's a pretty good defender. All I was saying is all Cole needs to do is stay in front of his opponent, he does not need to gamble.

[HEZI]

Cole got outplayed by tre Jones big time both times they played

Cole picked up early fouls and was forced to play light on D. Even the announcers were saying he needs to be careful because they needed him on the court.

Yeah up until the last few minutes of the game, Cole was actually getting the better of Jones. That collapse was almost unreal, when Cole picked up his fouls that's when Jones went into attack mode. Then that crazy miss at the free throw line to get the ball back and then the shot to tie the game and sent it to OT was just bonkers. UNC should have won that game but they collapsed in an embarrassing fashion, it was almost unreal. Didn't watch the second game but on paper it looks like Cole got outplayed but in that 1st game it was a legit duel.

[jvsimonetti0514]

Nah, Cole never even made his team better.

Read on Twitter

I'm not going to defend Cole's playmaking because it's not good but UNC was better when he played. They went 10-12(.454) with him and 4-7(.363) without him.

Cole was only able to beat the worst teams in the country. They started the season playing horrible teams which is why there is more wins with Cole. When Cole went up against legit competition he was terrible and he did not help his team mates get better.

I decided to take a look at the wins of when he played. UNC had wins at Notre Dame, Alabama, Oregon, NCST, Syracuse, and Virginia Tech are wins against teams with .500 and above records. Not to mention a handful of one possession losses against Duke, Virginia, and Notre Dame. So more than half of the wins with him on the court were against winning teams. It's fine to not like Cole, he's super flawed, just don't make things up.

[HEZI]

The great Bulls teams of the Jordan era as well as the Bad Boys Pistons had some of the biggest and most selfish **** and pricks in the history of the game. Ultimately if the guy can play in the NBA and help his team win I don't honestly care if he's an axe murderer, a bigot, cross dresser, whatever...that **** isn't what the Knicks need him for. So the question is, can LaMelo Ball help the Knicks team win and become what they have been trying to become for over 2 decades...at least better than anyone else in this draft. I mean that's the reality of it and the bottom line. We're not picking for the boy scouts here. IF (and who know if he is the most impactful player) Ball is the best guy then you take him. Most professional athletes are primadonnas. Him not risking things and thinking about his NBA career is not really different than most of the rest of these top guys. Why do you think Wiseman decided not to fight it? Cole Anthony didn't exactly rush back either. None of these guys do. Lebron James, if he wasn't allowed to jump straight form HS probably would have done the same thing.

Ok so you are basically ignoring how all of his red flags could actually contribute to the reasons why the Knicks won't become that and might in fact just continue with being a joke and a circus for clowns that let their personal ego's become bigger than the team. From the self centered personality to the glaring weaknesses in his game there are major red flags with him that I'm not looking to just sweep under the rug. He's not that good of a prospect to do so

What you are doing is called projecting. Do you honestly believe that most of these guys are saints? You do realize that the media helps create these 'personalities' that people buy into right? Not that good a prospect??? From the talent standpoint he's arguably the best prospect. Are you telling me that just about every single projection that Ball is in the top group of this draft talent wise is wrong and you're right? Based on what? What have you gotten right in the past that others have gotten wrong? You are missing the point that this is not a personality contest.

Don't care about who is a saint or whatever, that's not what I'm talking about. Even you just admitted he's arguably the best prospect, that's a telling line coming from even you because he's not a clear cut best prospect. Plus, all I did was highlight the red flags and reasons to be cautious. What you are doing is ignoring and just sweeping things under the rug.

[malik959]

Don't think we need a poor shooting non-D point guard. Haven't we had some of those in the past?

That's why I don't care for Ball. I strongly feel that he is overrated for somebody with such huge flaws. We sit here and complain about DSJ, Frank, Payton, and Knox not being able to hit their shots yet we want someone coming in with a much worse form and percentage than them, plus even worse defense. After watching Calderon play defense the last person I want on this team is Ball. I feel that if he wasn't in the lime light from being under his brothers he wouldn't be nothing less than a 15th pick in this draft. Guys with this many flaws don't usually go in the lotto, maybe selected to be in the green room, but disappointed to be selected at 15/16th.

[HEZI]

But with Mitch in the back all Cole needs to do is try to stay in front of his man, don't do to much. It always helps to know somebody has your back. Now tell me, who had his back in NC?

So you are conceding that Cole Anthony can't defend college PG's and that because of Mitch Robinson, who averages only 23 mpg in part because he's still foul prone, will make up for it? Is his offense really that dominant to make up for what you are basically implying is terrible defense?

OK first off Cole is no way a bad defender and actually he's a pretty good defender. All I was saying is all Cole needs to do is stay in front of his opponent, he does not need to gamble.

Gotta disagree here, he's quite terrible on defense

He can have some really nice defensive plays but for the most part he sucks at it. It is what it is, I still like his productivity and talent on offense but going into the league he's not somebody I would bank on being a good or even solid defender. He's going to have to get much better there.

[3toheadmelo]

I'm not going to defend Cole's playmaking because it's not good but UNC was better when he played. They went 10-12(.454) with him and 4-7(.363) without him.

Cole was only able to beat the worst teams in the country. They started the season playing horrible teams which is why there is more wins with Cole. When Cole went up against legit competition he was terrible and he did not help his team mates get better.

I decided to take a look at the wins of when he played. UNC had wins at Notre Dame, Alabama, Oregon, NCST, Syracuse, and Virginia Tech are wins against teams with .500 and above records. Not to mention a handful of one possession losses against Duke, Virginia, and Notre Dame. So more than half of the wins with him on the court were against winning teams. It's fine to not like Cole, he's super flawed, just don't make things up.

Incorrect. Elon Phoenix was 7-11. Alabama is 8-10. Wake Forest is 6-14. UNC Wilmington is 5-13. Notre Dame was 10-10. Syracuse 10-10, Virginia Tech 10-10. So more than half of his wins came from teams that were 0.500 and below. Those are NON winning teams. Nobody considers a .500 team a winning team. Its fine to like Cole, but lets not rewrite history here.

It's also worth noting that he's played some of those teams twice and lost to them as well (Syracuse, Wake, ND). There's really no evidence that shows that Cole is a winning player or makes his team mates better.