j4remi wrote:Clyde_Style wrote:First off, you're talking to a guy who really wanted Elizabeth Warren, not a castoff from the Obama era. Biden is clearly not the best candidate we could have had, but have you even seen me bitch about him? Nah. I don't because it is extremely counter-productive. Just because I take issue with the trolling does not mean I love Joe Biden. It means I'm fiercely protective of this one chance we've got to win this or else we become a Nazi run country so hell yes I'm going to take issue with people constantly running down the Democratic nominee. But that's not the only reason.
You can fight for the issues without the trolling. Go ahead and criticize anything you like about Biden's platform. He's listening as I think you've noticed. He might not be the clod of earth some guys make him out to be. IOW, he may actually let people be heard in his administration and make major compromises. I'd say shifting zero carbo emission goals by 10 years is a pretty big adjustment. So he ain't Liz or Bernie, but for now he'll do as long as he stomps the F out of Trump.
Doing anything to jeapordize Biden's victory is foolishness. There's policy debate and there's trolling and they are two different things. And the left wing in this country has a serious trolling problem that is going to undermine them if they don't help each other stay on point and skip the extra-curricular bitching.
I mean whose side do you think Glen Greenwald is on anyway? Yours? The guy perpetrated a rape accusation that was absurd and the left was chewing it up like red meat. It was pathetic. And you did nothing to step in and say anything about it. I take all the heat around here when I bring up these ethical matters, but when I tell you the left has an ethics problem you tell me I'm being condescending. Well, you do have a problem and I look to smart wonks like you to speak up when people you are aligned with take it too far.
For example, in the George Floyd thread I was called both Whitey and a White Supremacist and not a single mod stepped in to say that's not OK. So fine, I handle myself and dealt with it. I'm no wallflower, but I'm principled in my arguments and not everyone here is. I get it, you guys leave me to my own devices, but if you're not going to deal with unethical mob behavior don't tell me I'm condescending when I'm the only one around here who challenges people about things like calling Biden a rapist or sticking to my guns when I tell people who are foaming at the mouth ready to burn everything down that it is not cool to burn out your neighborhood bodega or local thai restauraunt because of 400 years of the white oppression.
Every time I see someone act by the ethos of By Any Means Necessary I see revolutionary posturing that somehow committing evil to combat evil is the answer. It is not. It is rubbish. This era has been defined by a complete breakdown of the ability to discern truth and without truth you'll get no justice. You cannot expect to achieve justice if we continually stand by silently when our brothers and sisters lower themselves to the standards of the enemy. Trolling is the way of the Trumpers. We are not them and we should not behave like them and cast false accusations or mock those we need to support. It is short-sighted and leads to failure.
P.S. Even if the above touches on some stuff I wrangled with Wingo about before, I am not mad at him and this is not intended to target him. I want him to enjoy RealGM and wish him well. This is just something that I needed to say, because it is not about any one person. But if people are going to say I'm gaslighting or I'm a white supremacist, I'm going to take issue with that, because neither are true. We can choose to hold each other to some kind of standard. Or not. I don't control that. I just speak up when others don't.
This post didn't address anything I've been trying to say. My points were
a) I don't think sleepy Joe Biden memes are a threat to his candidacy as much as his inability to appeal to certain demographics or avoid gaffes is.
b)
When you dismiss every comment about Biden's gaffes as Trolling and spend all your time complaining about trolls, you're obfuscating and gaslighting. Because there are people with real complaints, who have real issues or priorities that they don't believe Biden is addressing when they hear him speak. You need to humble yourself enough to listen to those people and figure out what Biden offers that can appeal to them specifically.
What? See the above post you are replying to where I very clearly wrote: You can fight for the issues without the trolling. Go ahead and criticize anything you like about Biden's platform I very specifically made the point to honor your right and desire to say ANYTHING AT ALL in critique of their policy platform, but here you basically just lied about me to my face and said I'm gaslighting again. Not cool at all.
c) By focusing on trolls and ignoring everything else, you completely ignore sincere complaints that people have and which Biden may or may not be addressing. If he is addressing them, then you can point to solutions he offers and if he's not then you can probably find some Trump maneuvers that make the problems worse. But that starts with listening and actually paying attention to what you're being told. This stuff isn't effective if you construct a defensive bubble.
Again, I said all is that is totally fine and grist for the mill. I have never once jumped into a convo and said something like STOP complaining about their health care agenda. Yet, here you repeat that I can't separate between my criticism of unnecessary trolling and actual concrete dissection of their politics when you're the one not paying attention to what I actually said. You're telling me I'm defensive? I said go for it, yet you're claiming I said the opposite.
My entire first post was to say "There are legitimate complaints you ignore by just decrying trolls. To appeal to those voters, you need to offer honest comparisons." Here let's circle back...
j4remi wrote:If a person chooses not to vote for Joe Biden because people made "sleepy Joe" jokes, were they ever gonna vote for him to begin with? The two types I see highly critical of Biden are
a) People who are heavy progressive, many because they've been in desperate situations which neither party addressed in a satisfactory way. So these people aren't comparing the two beyond, "my life has only improved superficially regardless of the lead"
or
b) People who only get cliff's notes versions of politics because they're not that into it. So these heads can fall into the false equivalence trap between Biden and Trump.
In both cases, I've found that acknowledgement of their frustrations is the easiest starting place followed by an appeal to damage control...then you can cite some easy examples where Trump compares miserably to Obama (ICE and Pandemic response being the easiest).
This is about how to appeal to people that I don't think you have any respect or appreciation for Clyde. Your disdain is not so subtle with some of the rhetoric you use. So while you may not "bitch" about Biden; you also don't seem to be able to differentiate between a troll and someone whose day to day challenges have them ready to give up on the system altogether. Or at least you don't seem very interested in those people as long as there's a rude minority of the group to conflate everyone for.
How about you stop deflecting by accusing me of deflecting? That's a gaslighting tactic if I've ever seen one. You never stepped up when people were shopping fake rape accusations and you're a mod active in this thread. That's trolling, not attacking the issues. And I very clearly addressed why the Sleepy Joe meme is destructive so I did answer you.
I've been precise about the actual things that don't add to the situation, yet you're the one trying to blur me into an indistinct complainer with no respect for your opinions which is completely untrue. I'm just fed up with your willingness to tacitly accept any tactics as OK as long as they are coming from your wavelength of the political spectrum. When have you ever said a single thing about what is the right way to go about discussing politics except to push back when I point out why some tactics are wrong? Clearly, the left has a serious trolling problem and you'd rather call me a gaslighter and bury your head over this real issue.
