BAT 8.0 DISCUSSION -Links pg1(DRAFT IN OTHERTHREAD) Part III

[moocow007]

Also most teams need to do their pimping already, only a handful of teams have done it thus far.

I'm a little less than half way through. Stopped at Delonte West...need some rest...or I won't be at my best.

[moocow007]

Holy cow, the waiving and picking players off of waivers is still going full steam.

[Knicksfan20]

Id love to know how im not set up to win future also. Thats exactly the way i built my team.

When Duncan retires (in 3 years btw since he has a 3 year contract and is still highly productive) I have Vucevic to step in and take the reigns. (who looks to be a solid player and put up nice numbers in limited minutes, he should do well in Orlando.)

Then in 3 years or so I have Chris Singleton who can step into a bigger role at SF. The fact taht you said Prince is a below average player at this point is laughable. Hes one of the best "role players" in the game. You put him in a winning situation and he will be one of the key pieces to winning a chip.

And Isiah is young as well and also is a beast. 2 way player who is extremely quick/athletic and is a great passer unlike Nate who is similar in speed/athletic but is a 1 way player and inconsistant on offenes. Isiah despite his size, is a very solid player. I think he can be a 15/8 pg in this league.

BTW, If trading is still allowed id be willing to move Zaza with another player for an upgrade somewhere.

[ctorres]

Are you guys cool with me starting with a top 10 and then editing my post throughout the next days until I cover 29 teams? I won't rank mine on my list.

[moocow007]

Are you guys cool with me starting with a top 10 and then editing my post throughout the next days until I cover 29 teams? I won't rank mine on my list.

I would suggest everyone hold off to be quite honest. All you're going to do is potentially get guys worked on and look to retailiate if they don't like your rankings.

My suggestion is that everyone does their rankings (without posting) and sends it to a neutral party who will gather the all and then, once everyone (or almost everyone) is done, that neutral party posts ALL of it at once.

Also, you may want to give everyone time to pimp their team. If you start doing it now it would appear that you really don't care about what they say, what they envision or why they believe so...which doesn't make sense IMO.

[ctorres]

You got it moo.

[Lin Your Face]

I appreciate all the comments on my rankings even the criticism.

Here are some responses:

Blue ninja: I definitely feel that your team deserves the high spot in the rankings. Your team has more young talent than any team in the NBA ever. They probably won't all pan out, but Anthony Davis has loads of potential and so do a lot of your other guys. Also, his team won't do well this year, but his team will get another top draft pick. Additionally, while FA and trade opportunities can be a crapshoot he has 4 years to improve before he will need to commit a lot of money to Davis and the other good young players. I'd much rather have his team over the long term than any team that probably won't win now and will only probably decline later.

MeloCity: There is nothing wrong with having young guys on a team that can win now, but they need to be good young guys. Andre Drummond has an enormous amount of potential, but he couldn't even make a free throw last season. Your bench is almost all rookies too and I wouldn't be confident any of them could contribute now. Also, Billups will be gone soon and David West is slowly declining and is a free agent next year. Your teams core for the future is essentially Ellis, Gay, Drummond and I guess Royce White. I think Ellis and Gay are a little overpaid and I'm personally not that optimistic about Drummond. You'd have to hope Drummond fulfills expectations quickly and get lucky in FA to contend.

LJ4pointplay: Your team could definitely win it all next year if everything goes right, but you need a lot to go right. Dirk was definitely worse than last season, while Hamilton and Felton had down years. I think its safe to say that Hamilton and Felton will be better than last season, but I'm not confident they will be a lot better.

Moocow: I admit that I saw a lot of Brand last season in the playoffs and when looking things up I didn't realize that he was playing with a neck injury. Based on my googling it seems that Brand was a good defender in the regular season, although I took the guy that wrote that ESPN insider article saying he should be the DPOY with a grain of salt because he also proclaimed that Blake Griffin would also be the next KG, which is just an odd comparison. Also, I feel its safe to say Deron is only an average defender, while Tyreke and Lee are poor defenders. I don't have any regrets about where I ranked you. I looked at your salary chart and saw that you are capped out for next season, while you have 38 million committed to Deron, David Lee, and Motiejunas the next year. The Lee contract does hurt you because that's not a lot of money to give to the rest of the roster. As I said, I think the only way your team contends is if Tyreke explodes next season and your outside shooting improves. I agree that Motiejunas has a lot of upside, but I don't see Jared Cunningham or Quincy Miller being anything special.

Knicksfan20: Duncan may not retire for 3 years, but I think its reasonable to expect him to start declining now. Your team needs Duncan to play at an extremely high level to win it all this year. I think saying that Vucevic will easily replace Duncan is ridiculous. I don't see any way to prove Prince would magically play better if he's in a winning situation and Chris Singleton didn't really show any signs last year to make me think he'll be an impact player in the future. I agree that Isaiah is a good young player, but you really need to resign Bynum and you won't have much flexibility to add young players for 3 years.

[moocow007]

Moocow: I admit that I saw a lot of Brand last season in the playoffs and when looking things up I didn't realize that he was playing with a neck injury. Based on my googling it seems that Brand was a good defender in the regular season, although I took the guy that wrote that ESPN insider article saying he should be the DPOY with a grain of salt because he also proclaimed that Blake Griffin would also be the next KG, which is just an odd comparison.

What the heck are you talking about? What article? The quote I posted in my team thread is about Synergy that only crunches numbers. It's NOT some ESPN guys opinion. Based on every single play in the NBA, Brand was ranked as having the lowest opposing post player FG% among all post defenders. It was actually around 28% if you really dug and not just kinda googled. THAT makes him more than just a "good defender". Blake Griffin has nothing to do with it unless Griffin's Synergy stats were in the same neighborhood.

With that said I don't have any regrets about where I ranked you.

And you're wrong and your opinions on not just my team but many teams are way off and amateurish. And I don't have any regrets about sayign that either.

I looked at your salary chart and saw that you are capped out for next season, while you have 38 million committed to Deron, David Lee, and Motiejunas the next year.

????? Motiejunas has a tiny contract. You mean Marvin Williams right? And I didn't realize bad cap meant next year. What happened to 2 years, 3 years? By this silly logic EVERY TEAM has a bad cap situation.

The Lee contract does hurt you because that's not a lot of money to give to the rest of the roster.

You should take a look at A LOT of the other teams salaries. IF you actually tried...cause most GM's didn't list it, you'll see that A LOT of the other teams that you're ranking so high has A LOT worse cap situation than me. This is another sign telling me you didn't do your job well at all.

As I said, I think the only way your team contends is if Tyreke explodes next season.

That's ridiculously ludicrous a statement. What happened to Deron Williams, David Lee, Brand, Marion (who is also a pretty darn good defender that you ignored), West (another great defender), Andersen (another good defender), Marvin Williams (another good defender)? They just disappeared? Evans is the 3rd option on a team with terrific passing and who has the talent so that he doesn't have to feel like he has to do everything...so heck...he should explode...but I doubt you analyzed it anywhere near far enough.

I agree that Motiejunas has a lot of upside, but I don't see Jared Cunningham or Quincy Miller being anything special.

You do know that Quincy Miller was ranked by a lot of scouts higher than everyone but Anthony Davis coming out of the same HS class right? Of course you didn't. Miller dropped because he suffered a torn ACL and played all of last season at Baylor trying to recover from it. That's why he dropped into the 2nd round, teams were concerned about it. So unless you're rationale is that the ACL tear is something he can't recover from (and A LOT of players have recovered from it) then there's no reason why Miller wouldn't have a lot of upside. And I doubt you knew about Miller's HS ranking or ACL injury so I question your opinion here as well. And based on everything else you've said, I doubt you've ever even watched Cunningham play or know even what he does.

Passing, Rebounding, Toughness, Skills (4 things that my team has an abundance of)...things that usually are qualities that great teams have apparently is minimized...as is the ability of this team to defend despite having proven defenders in the starting lineup (one in the paint, one on the perimeter) and several defenders on the bench rotation (4 are known for their defense and toughness) apparently ignored.

[Lin Your Face]

What the heck are you talking about? What article? The quote I posted in my team thread is about Synergy that only crunches numbers. It's NOT some ESPN guys opinion. Based on every single play in the NBA, Brand was ranked as having the lowest opposing post player FG% among all post defenders. It was actually around 28% if you really dug and not just kinda googled. THAT makes him more than just a "good defender". Blake Griffin has nothing to do with it unless Griffin's Synergy stats were in the same neighborhood.

I agree that numbers show Brand was a very good defender last season. An article stating Brand should be the DPOY was one of the first things that came up when I googled Brand and you disagreed with me so vehemently I thought you may have read it.

I looked at your salary chart and saw that you are capped out for next season, while you have 38 million committed to Deron, David Lee, and Motiejunas the next year.

????? Motiejunas has a tiny contract. You mean Marvin Williams right? And I didn't realize bad cap meant next year. What happened to 2 years, 3 years? By this silly logic EVERY TEAM has a bad cap situation.

The Lee contract does hurt you because that's not a lot of money to give to the rest of the roster.

I was referring to your committed salary entering 2014-15Yes I realize Motiejunas has a tiny contract. Obviously about 36-37 million of that is tied up in Deron and Lee. If you resign Tyreke than there is barely any money to fill out the rest of the roster.

You should take a look at A LOT of the other teams salaries. IF you actually tried...cause most GM's didn't list it, you'll see that A LOT of the other teams that you're ranking so high has A LOT worse cap situation than me. This is another sign telling me you didn't do your job well at all.

As I said I generally estimated cap numbers because it would've taken forever to add everything up. I still don't feel I have made any horrible mistakes. Feel free to mention teams that are in worse cap situations than you.

As I said, I think the only way your team contends is if Tyreke explodes next season.

That's ridiculously ludicrous a statement. What happened to Deron Williams, David Lee, Brand, Marion (who is also a pretty darn good defender that you ignored), West (another great defender), Andersen (another good defender), Marvin Williams (another good defender)? They just disappeared? Evans is the 3rd option on a team with terrific passing and who has the talent so that he doesn't have to feel like he has to do everything...so heck...he should explode...but I doubt you analyzed it anywhere near far enough.

If I was ranking teams based on winning now your team would be above 24th, but I feel its safe to say that it won't come close to contending. I don't feel Deron is a top 7 player like you do and I don't see how he fits well with Evans.

I agree that Motiejunas has a lot of upside, but I don't see Jared Cunningham or Quincy Miller being anything special.

You do know that Quincy Miller was ranked by a lot of scouts higher than everyone but Anthony Davis coming out of the same HS class right? Of course you didn't. Miller dropped because he suffered a torn ACL and played all of last season at Baylor trying to recover from it. That's why he dropped into the 2nd round, teams were concerned about it. So unless you're rationale is that the ACL tear is something he can't recover from (and A LOT of players have recovered from it) then there's no reason why Miller wouldn't have a lot of upside. And I doubt you knew about Miller's HS ranking or ACL injury so I question your opinion here as well. And based on everything else you've said, I doubt you've ever even watched Cunningham play or know even what he does.

No I haven't seen that much of Miller and Cunningham, but I was aware of everything you said about Miller. I thought Miller would be picked a little higher and Cunningham would've dropped a little bit more. Considering where they were picked I'm surprised you're so shocked that I don't expect them to be all stars.

[moocow007]

No I haven't seen that much of Miller and Cunningham, but I was aware of everything you said about Miller. I thought Miller would be picked a little higher and Cunningham would've dropped a little bit more. Considering where they were picked I'm surprised you're so shocked that I don't expect them to be all stars.

Again, Miller dropped because teams weren't sure that he's recovered fully from his ACL injury. So...unless that's your rationale...then no, if Miller was healthy he'd have been a lottery pick...which then would make him an potential potent player. But regardless of that, how many "all stars" are you actually seeing out of this draft? Only guy this is a semi possibility is Anthony Davis.

[moocow007]

What the heck are you talking about? What article? The quote I posted in my team thread is about Synergy that only crunches numbers. It's NOT some ESPN guys opinion. Based on every single play in the NBA, Brand was ranked as having the lowest opposing post player FG% among all post defenders. It was actually around 28% if you really dug and not just kinda googled. THAT makes him more than just a "good defender". Blake Griffin has nothing to do with it unless Griffin's Synergy stats were in the same neighborhood.

I agree that numbers show Brand was a very good defender last season. An article stating Brand should be the DPOY was one of the first things that came up when I googled Brand and you disagreed with me so vehemently I thought you may have read it.

I looked at your salary chart and saw that you are capped out for next season, while you have 38 million committed to Deron, David Lee, and Motiejunas the next year.

????? Motiejunas has a tiny contract. You mean Marvin Williams right? And I didn't realize bad cap meant next year. What happened to 2 years, 3 years? By this silly logic EVERY TEAM has a bad cap situation.

The Lee contract does hurt you because that's not a lot of money to give to the rest of the roster.

I was referring to your committed salary entering 2014-15Yes I realize Motiejunas has a tiny contract. Obviously about 36-37 million of that is tied up in Deron and Lee. If you resign Tyreke than there is barely any money to fill out the rest of the roster.

You should take a look at A LOT of the other teams salaries. IF you actually tried...cause most GM's didn't list it, you'll see that A LOT of the other teams that you're ranking so high has A LOT worse cap situation than me. This is another sign telling me you didn't do your job well at all.

As I said I generally estimated cap numbers because it would've taken forever to add everything up. I still don't feel I have made any horrible mistakes. Feel free to mention teams that are in worse cap situations than you.

As I said, I think the only way your team contends is if Tyreke explodes next season.

That's ridiculously ludicrous a statement. What happened to Deron Williams, David Lee, Brand, Marion (who is also a pretty darn good defender that you ignored), West (another great defender), Andersen (another good defender), Marvin Williams (another good defender)? They just disappeared? Evans is the 3rd option on a team with terrific passing and who has the talent so that he doesn't have to feel like he has to do everything...so heck...he should explode...but I doubt you analyzed it anywhere near far enough.

If I was ranking teams based on winning now your team would be above 24th, but I feel its safe to say that it won't come close to contending. I don't feel Deron is a top 7 player like you do and I don't see how he fits well with Evans.

I agree that Motiejunas has a lot of upside, but I don't see Jared Cunningham or Quincy Miller being anything special.

You do know that Quincy Miller was ranked by a lot of scouts higher than everyone but Anthony Davis coming out of the same HS class right? Of course you didn't. Miller dropped because he suffered a torn ACL and played all of last season at Baylor trying to recover from it. That's why he dropped into the 2nd round, teams were concerned about it. So unless you're rationale is that the ACL tear is something he can't recover from (and A LOT of players have recovered from it) then there's no reason why Miller wouldn't have a lot of upside. And I doubt you knew about Miller's HS ranking or ACL injury so I question your opinion here as well. And based on everything else you've said, I doubt you've ever even watched Cunningham play or know even what he does.

No I haven't seen that much of Miller and Cunningham, but I was aware of everything you said about Miller. I thought Miller would be picked a little higher and Cunningham would've dropped a little bit more. Considering where they were picked I'm surprised you're so shocked that I don't expect them to be all stars.

Again...you're opinion is poor on just about everything. You googled wrong and assumed. You stated wrong salaries and AGAIN did not bother trying to actually figure out the scary cap situations of A LOT of the teams you ranked high. If you can't see how having a top notch PG and a lot better talent will help Evans not having to try to do everything (what got him in trouble) and instead allow him to focus on scoring (what he does best) I can't help explain it anymore to you and just proves that you don't quite grasp things.

[moocow007]

[ctorres]

Jared Dudley available in the right deal, send me offers...

christorres2004@gmail.com

[Lin Your Face]

Quincy Miller's knee is still a legitimate issue. He apparently didn't work hard enough in rehab and that messed up his knee. We'll see how he does in the future, but this knee damage was clearly bad enough to scare off a lot of teams.

I never directly stated any salaries and please prove one example where I completely messed up on assessing a team's salary situation. I don't feel I messed up analyzing your salary situation.

I also don't feel Evans has been placed in a role where he has to try to do everything since the Kings gave up on having him be a PG. Also, one of Evans's problems is that he needs work moving without the ball and is at his best when the ball is in his hands and gets to drive. However, Evans is ultimately not as effective as he has the potential to be when driving because he could improve his ballhandling/passing a little more and more importantly his lack of a jump shot allows defenders to play off of him.

[ctorres]

Pimped out my team. This is my favorite team out of all 7 BAT's I've been a part of. At the end of the day, my team will get more defensive stops than anyone else's. That gives us a chance to win every game we play, regardless of offensive talent on the opposition. Offensively my team will play smart. No need for constant isolation plays when I have guys who know how to run all sorts of offensive sets in the half-court.

[br7knicks]

appreciate those rankings.. a lot of thought put into it, and I think they were done very well. Like everyone else not ranked #1, I wish I was ranked higher, but appreciate the thought and think the criticisms are valid.

People bring up Dirk's "decline" kinda often, and I'm not buying it. This apparent "decline" happened just months after he put a team on his back and led them to a championship through a ridiculously tough western conference and over LeBron, Wade, and Bosh. Dirk admitted to doing basically nothing during the off-season and not being ready when the lock out ended. He was coming off a high, and didn't expect the season to start. I recognize the guy is 34, but it was barely over a year ago when people thought he was playing at his career's peak. Plus, he's one of the most skilled players of all time, the kinda guy who ages like wine as he doesn't rely on athleticism. Dirk is still the best offensive PF in the league, and probably will be for the foreseeable future..

he's declined, but it's not a true decline. he's declined only very slightly and minimally. dirk is incredibly smart. he's not as fast as he used to be (although he was never really fast), so he found ways to make up for it. dude is 34 and is still putting up 22+ ppg with great efficiency, and hasn't missed the PO since he was 21. he's not putting up 25+ ppg anymore, but it's not much of a decline at all.

I recognize that he isn't as atheltic as he was when he was 24, but like I said, this time last year, people thought Dirk was at his all-time peak. Did he really decline that much in athleticism between June and December of last year? The guy was out of shape, he admitted to it and the Mavs organization admitted to it, but being temporarily out of shape does not equate to a decline in his game. Like I said, I recognize that there has been a gradual athletic decline over a number of years (I remember him leading fast breaks pretty often early in his career), but I am highly skeptical that he somehow lost all this athleticism over a 4 month period and any gradual loss in athleticism over a longer period has obviously been made up for in other ways, as proven in May/June 2011.

i was trying to defend you dude lol

[br7knicks]

my last BAT was good and top 10. this one is better for me, especially when i started with the #27 pick

[br7knicks]

Are you guys cool with me starting with a top 10 and then editing my post throughout the next days until I cover 29 teams? I won't rank mine on my list.

i'd definitely wait. this is why during the last BAT, i suggested we e-mail all of our rankings to ONE person so they can post them all at once. that way, no grudges are held.

but i still think we need a set, criteria or rubric in which to set teams. it says, "win now, win future", etc. but i think an example needs to be made so we have a better understanding of how the rubric can be set up when we grade teams.

[Knicksfan20]

Knicksfan20: Duncan may not retire for 3 years, but I think its reasonable to expect him to start declining now. Your team needs Duncan to play at an extremely high level to win it all this year. I think saying that Vucevic will easily replace Duncan is ridiculous. I don't see any way to prove Prince would magically play better if he's in a winning situation and Chris Singleton didn't really show any signs last year to make me think he'll be an impact player in the future. I agree that Isaiah is a good young player, but you really need to resign Bynum and you won't have much flexibility to add young players for 3 years

Yes its reasonable to expect a decline, but although he may be getting older...his IQ will never go away and will still be a top 5 PF in the league even with a decline. He put up 15/10 and 1.7 bpg i think during a lockout season where he played less minutes. He just turned 36...he will be 38 when his contract ends.

Why cant vucevic replace him in 3 years? Hes a solid young player, to say its ridiculous for Vucevic to be a 14/8 player or so isnt crazy.

Regardless if Chris is a stud or not, he is still a great defender and a hustle player who rebound and can hit open jumpers. His skill set is great for the NBA, and i have him getting 13 mpg atm. I think he can end up being a nice role player

Prince didnt even play bad last season. On one of the worst teams in the league. HEs only 32 and can help any single playoff team right now become better. I dont get where you think it will take "magic" for him to be better. IDK how much you know about competing, but its a bit hard to play hard on a team that is going to lose every single night.

You dont once mention the fit of my team and how well they all will gell with one another, nor do you take into account of my teams defense.

[NewEra]

Thanks for the the time and effort placed into doing the rankings LYF. Appreciate it.

I do love my team, which is built to win now, and I'm glad you see it that way also.